Causes of Arm injury

Is this about arm issues or shoulder?

I suppose anything is possible but more likely poor mechanics and overuse are the main causes for any pitcher's injury.

Did anyone ever change your sons arm slot? That is different than the motion, I do beleive.

TR,
I received a pm that you had made a comment regarding my above post, I guess it was deleted.

You were trying to discredit me, again?

In case you hadn't noticed, DM's topic is "causes of arm injury", but he refers to his son's labrum repair, so I was asking what he was refering to.

For you TR, the link below is pretty easy to read and straight forward as to the shoulder and what is involved and what might cause injury. I hope that this helps you in understanding the difference between arm and shoulder.

I would suggest once again, instead of trying to create an argument by bringing up needless nonsensical trivial stuff, why not contribute something meaningful to discussions and/or answer questions asked by the poster.

http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_16_1_1.htm

There is a lot written about mechanics, pitch counts, etc, etc, etc, and a lot of it is contradictory...in fact, for every sound opinion from an expert, you can probably find a sound contrarian opinion from an expert.

You may be on to something when you reference changes to a kids natural motion, I don't know.

My son had labrum surgery and as a power pitcher came back to beat the 18% odds of full rehabilitation to former velocity. He then tore his UCL and one expert he saw, Mets team Dr. Altchek, thought that his shoulder was overly tight and that may have contributed to the elbow injury.

In looking back, I can think of one thing I would have focused more on if I had to do it over again. Maximum development of the decelerator muscles in the back. So much of my research has come back to pointing squarely at the arms ability to safely decelerate, that I think that if you do that, you've focused on that, you've taken the largest step you can to arm injury prevention.

JMHO and I hope for nothing but the best for your son in the future.

Chip

I brought this up because we know a guy who went through a major arm issue. He was a high pick as a catcher. Couldn't hit at AA but still had a cannon arm and they tried him as a pitcher. He blew out his elbow when they changed how he threw. Three years later he is throwing 97 and cruising 94 with his original throwing motion. Pain free. No way is he ever going to change back to how they wanted him to throw.

My son never had any arm issues until they changed how he threw from the field and on the mound. He said it hurt but was told that is natural and just keep doing it because it was better for his arm. Obviously it wasn't.

There may be a reason why some people have different styles. It is because that is the style that works best for them and maybe it shouldn't be changed unless there is a problem or pain. Going against what the body does naturally may be part of the problem with the increase in arm injuries at all ages.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

I was wondering if changing a kids natural arm motion and delivery may due more damage than good.

So, going back to your OP. . . .


IMHO and simply, YES.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

There may be a reason why some people have different styles. It is because that is the style that works best for them and maybe it shouldn't be changed unless there is a problem or pain. Going against what the body does naturally may be part of the problem with the increase in arm injuries at all ages.

I've thought this for a long, long time and found it hard to stick to my guns having some of my son's coaches try to change my son's "style" starting when he first began travel ball at the age of 13. At the beginning I felt my son was just too young to even worry about it. But as the years went by there seemed to be more pressure to change his "style" of pitching. I felt there were legitimate mechanical things to change, but without changing his "style."

Then one day a friend and I (both of us being youth baseball coaches, not pitching coaches)attended a regional symposium for high school and college coaches with the idea of learning more about the higher levels of coaching. It was there where I heard the term Biomechanical Signature and the man teaching about it was Tom House, a former big league pitcher and well known pitching/throwing advisor). As he reviewed what Biomechanics was and how it applied to pitching and throwing, he made it clear that the research he and some others were doing showed that every player has a Biomechanical Signature for throwing. And he pointed out that staying within the "signature" contributed somewhat significantly to consistency and reduced the number of arm injuries. Staying within the "signature" doesn't mean everyone who does is going to avoid injuries as it's just not that simple of an issue. But the one thing that seemed quite conclusive is that changing the "signature" posed some additional risk and that there was really no performance advantage to doing so.

Well, what Dr. House was saying was music to my ears and made me feel vindicated over my arguments to others for resisting any changing of my son's "signature." Now my son was a two-way player (SS & RP) in high level travel ball team as well as in High School. High School didn't present much of an exposure to arm injury as he didn't have to pitch all that much (some relief and some closing), which I was OK with to keep his throwing arm fresh. Travel ball was a different matter and it always kept me concerned due to the number of games they play in a row where he would be a starting pitcher in one game and then a starting SS in the next. Well, my son made it through without any arm injuries and he is a player that had some good velocity (90-93 in High School)and was even drafted as a pitcher, but now playing SS in good D-1 college and throwing harder than ever with some pro scouts still interested in him for pitching.

So, I'm a strong advocate for all players staying within their Biomechanical Signature. I often use a golf analogy comparing some former great golf legend's swings of Lee Trevino, Chi Chi Rodriguez, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicolas (yeah, I know. . . the younger generation will say, WHO? ;-) Their Biomechanical Signatures were all very different, but when you look at the important mechanics that gave them the control and velocity they were much alike. You can see the same thing with great baseball hitters and one can also see such differences in pitchers throughout history.

But as I mentioned, cause of injuries is a complex issue. If one can point to one thing that most affects injuries today, I'd say it's over-use along with not enough recovery time. And I find this often ignored with younger kids, typically before and early part of High School age.

This topic is interesting and so are the replies.

I have my doubts that the former catcher's injury was due to conversion as pitcher. Most likely the damage was done way before that accured, and without knowing what type of pitches he threw, how hard, his "style", it's hard to guess what really happened. It is easy to make assumptions. I know of one situation similar as the above, the catcher could not hit so he was converted and ended up with a diagnosis for TJS. I saw his mom this year and she told me he retired, he did not want surgery, and that his elbow had been a bit cranky before and since he lacked speed he had thrown a lot of off speed in HS when he WAS NOT catching. He was also pretty bulky as a catcher, could this have affected his range of motion as a pitcher? What really caused that injury? Overuse? Or changing "styles"? Or changing mechanics?

Once again, it's easy to make assumptions.

I am still confused as to what is meant by changing motion or style vs. slot. If you are talking about changing natural arm slot, I would agree it could happen. I am just not clear on what you mean, exactly.

FWIW, there are many position players that get converted to pitchers, some sustain injury and some do not. When this happens on the college or the professional level, it's a gradual learning process. Without us knowing all the details, again, hard to make assumptions.

DM, could you provide futher information on your son. First why did your son continue to pitch if it "hurt"? Was it a gradual process? When did your son begin to pitch, how old was he, did he play other positions after or before he pitched (SS coming into pitch, vice versa). Did he ever sustain an injury as a position player? Did he play year round, did he take time off during the year? When did he begin playing travel ball? What was his workload/positions in HS? What pitches did he throw as a beginning pitcher? Was he all muscle, I know you mentioned once that he threw hard.

Truman,
Can you explain style vs. mechanics at 13? Would the changes have involved changing arm slot?
I know that son had some sloppy mechanical issues when he was young, but everyone left him alone. It took his college pitching coach 3 years and the professional coaches more years of tweaking to refine, and it seems a constant thing that pitchers work on year in and year out. He would not have been able to pitch at the professional level without some of those fixes.

A conversation lately with someone in the professional world who works with pitchers, often times injury is caused because a pitcher tries to do too many things when they are just learning. We were talking about the conversations where parents of 10-14 year olds say they throw 4-6 pitches for strikes. Say what? Can you throw all of those pitches for strikes and repeat the same good mechanics?

Very well indeed that the above topic could be a cause, but not sure it would be considered the only cause, a lot of stuff goes on that causes pitcher injury, it's never one specific thing.

One more point to bring up, most pitchers play almost every position while growing up, so being converted, IMO has nothing to do with injury, unless the player never pitched and was not taught proper throwing mechanics. Changing natural arm slot, maybe.

My dad has been on here recently talking about my surgery and failed recovery. I didn't run into any issues until I started changing my arm motion around. I do feel like the damage was probably done before that because of how much I played when I was younger and the fact that I wanted to be in the game regardless of how my body felt. If I wasn't dead, I felt that I should be in the game... In the end I don't think it is ever one thing that causes an injury. I'm sure one variable may have more of a cause than another but in the end it's multiple things coming together to create the perfect conditions for an injury. Just my opinion from someone who had the surgery and didn't have a successful recovery.

Just a little background on my son. He didn't pitch a lot. He was a hard thrower but not to accurate. He only pitched once a month or less except in LL. He then pitched once a week as a freshman on JV. Most of the time he played on teams that had lots of pitchers and they always wanted him in the field for his d. Did we do everything correctly? No. Nobody does. But he threw vey few innings and never expierenced pain until his sophomore year after they started messing with his throwing. He was always a little under 3/4 from the field and the mound. Big push from the mound. They made him throw much more overhand from the field and mound and stopped him from pushing so hard from the mound. Then the pain started and ended with Labrum surgery after a bullpen about a year and a half later. He always took off at least 2 months every year and usually three.

We tried to do everything correctly but nothing ever hurt until the HS coach changed things.

Who knows why it tore? Maybe just because it was going to anyway, you never know.

Maybe the question should be when did you first start to notice pain when throwing? I would love to hear from players who went on to have surgery when they first noticed discomfort in their arm.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

I am still confused as to what is meant by changing motion or style vs. slot. If you are talking about changing natural arm slot, I would agree it could happen. I am just not clear on what you mean, exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

Truman,
Can you explain style vs. mechanics at 13? Would the changes have involved changing arm slot?
I know that son had some sloppy mechanical issues when he was young, but everyone left him alone. It took his college pitching coach 3 years and the professional coaches more years of tweaking to refine, and it seems a constant thing that pitchers work on year in and year out. He would not have been able to pitch at the professional level without some of those fixes.

Yes, for what I'm referring to I equate "style" with slot mostly . . .but it's not just slot alone. It includes things like the position of the hand and arm relative to the torso just before forward motion is initiated; also leg lift, as in how much of a lift might be comfortable to obtain a desired stride. Mechanics on the other hand, I equate to relative positions between different parts of the body at different points in time during the throw. So one might make a mechanical change without changing the Biomechanical Signature or "style" (e.g. working on increasing separation to help increase velocity.)

When pitching, my son has always had a slot that would be considered a 3/4 slot. And as an example, when my son was young some of the pitching advise to him was to throw "over the top", which several other pitchers were also being advised to do and as they tried to do it as did my son will little success and it resulted in a very different "style" that was more than just a change in the arm slot. I remember the same instruction be given to older kids too. I felt, and still do, that it was poor instruction and I'm happy the my son happen to listen to old Dad on this one.

I hear you about the constant tweaking to refine one's skill. Whether it's pitching, hitting or fielding, it seems my son now is ALWAYS tweaking to refine the smallest details. And personally, I feel professionals and my son too, tweak more than they should as it seems they've got to tweak even when things are going well with their performances. And at that level, it seems to me to be more of a physiological thing than physical. After all, baseball is 90 percent mental and the other half is physical. . . right?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

A conversation lately with someone in the professional world who works with pitchers, often times injury is caused because a pitcher tries to do too many things when they are just learning. We were talking about the conversations where parents of 10-14 year olds say they throw 4-6 pitches for strikes. Say what? Can you throw all of those pitches for strikes and repeat the same good mechanics?

I feel that's a good point and I agree. And I would say that not only is injury caused by tring to do too many things at once, but many times too that when one thing is changed that change affects other mechanical things linked to that change and those linked things are not addressed for whatever reason. This is another reason I feel this age group is really too early to try and do a lot with their mechanics as they're body and mind need more maturing.


lol . . .parent of 10-14 year olds say some of the dandiest things. Funny, with all the pitcher's I've watched at that age level and at the higher level of play, I can't remember a pitcher with more than 3 pitches and hardly more than one with command (command relative to their age).

quote:

Maybe the question should be when did you first start to notice pain when throwing? I would love to hear from players who went on to have surgery when they first noticed discomfort in their arm.

No one feels pain and then goes into surgery. When a player feels uncomfortable it is his responsibility to let others know. There could be a variety of reasons, but if there is concern then the player should be shut down and see a doctor for further evaluation. Sometimes it takes a while to determine the cause or if there really is one.

No one should tell a player that pain is normal, it is not.

Pitching is a catch 22, too much can hurt you and so can too little. DM, it appears that your son was probably a "thrower" more than a pitcher and that can often cause problems. BTW, there really isn't a "push" from the mound, the pitcher's momentum is what drives him forward and good instructors never use that word to make the pitcher think that is what he needs to do to move his body forward. So I understand what they were trying achieve by telling him that.

Some people think that because "over the top", worked for guys who pitched for years and never had injuries, that everyone should pitch like that. I would agree with Truman, stay away from anyone that wants to change your sons slot, unless he is experienced in doing so.

TPM,
I never thought a kid has pain then goes to surgery. BUt there probably is a first time it hurt to throw and I would think they would remember. I remember when my arm hurt for the first time and that was 35 plus years ago.

And he was def a thrower. DOn't all pitchers push off of the mound? I have never seen a pitcher just stand on it and throw. They all push to some degree and that is why they spend so much time developing their lower half.

Hind sight is 20/20. If I could go back a year and a half I would tell my son to never change his throwing slot I would in a heartbeat. I just think that was one of the things that tore him up. He never had pain when throwing before that.

Doughnutman,

If there's "pain", even for the first time, then there's something wrong and one should immediately stop. If the "pain" is recurring and/or isn't subsiding after a little rest, then it's time to see a specialist to determine what's going on and what can or should be done about it. If the pain or discomfort goes ignored, that's when the real problems set in. Unfortunately, pitchers in HS and even many in college will "suck it up", which is a good receipt for ongoing arm problems. And if you have an elite pitcher and ignore any pain or discomfort issues, then that's just stupid.


Yes, ALL pitcher push off the mound. But it's not a push like one might think of in terms of a sprinter pushing off starting blocks. But TPM is correct to point out that it's NOT a good idea to get the pitcher thinking of "pushing off". The actual amount of force on the push is actually very small and of itself doesn't do much of anything except to enable the pitcher to achieve his stride. IMHO, it's better to get the pitcher to a landing spot at the end of the stride than to think about "pushing off."

Whether pitching or hitting, the "lower half" is the foundation that the upper half sits on and follows. If the lower half doesn't work well, then . . . .??? Strength and conditioning (developing) of the lower half is key in controlling the upper half and maintaining control over time. So, as I mentioned about the amount of force involved, I'd say "developing" the lower have doesn't do much to increase "push", though it can help with lengthening the stride that is affected more by a different set of muscles than those used to "push."

The "slot" can be successfully changed without adverse results, such as developing injuries and pain. It's just that when a slot is changed, there's so many other things that need to be changed with it to accomodate the new arm position. This is why TPM's advice is GOOD when he said "stay away from anyone that wants to change your sons slot, unless he is experienced in doing so."

I fall in the camp that pitchers do not and should not "push" off of the mound.

This is just one of many articles that can be found.

http://www.pitching.com/blog/d...push-off-the-rubber/

if they do not push what do they do?

Hmmm. So far out of your league.

Try a couple of HoF 'push' guys.

Christy Mathewson
Tom Seaver

tpm do you consider the shoulder part of the arm---that was my question

quote:

DOn't all pitchers push off of the mound? I have never seen a pitcher just stand on it and throw. They all push to some degree and that is why they spend so much time developing their lower half.

Contrary to popular belief, "pushing off" the mound is mechanically incorrect and is a fallacy that can, and often times will, lead to injury.

Pushing off the mound causes several things to occur. The back leg will collapse, creating a lack of power distribution throughout the hips. The distribution will instantly become emphasized onto the front hip, which will cause an imbalance. An imbalance will cause the lower body to lead out in front of the upper body as a pace much too quickly for the arm action to be consistent. Once the lower body is out in front, the arm will drag and have to "catch up".

At the same time, a lack of even distribution throughout the hips will not allow for maximum torque throughout the throwing motion. By eliminating some of the power in the hips, it eliminates the opportunity for a pitcher to use all of their power.

Arm drag and minimized hip torque are miserably bad on the arm. The valgus stress levels on the shoulder joint and elbow ligament increase exponentially, and the inconsistencies that are created expound upon this reality further.

The advice to "push off" the rubber is often times a prerequisite cause for arm injury due to the reasons listed above.

Coaches, please don't tell your pitchers to "push off" the rubber. It's bad advice kinetically, mechanically, efficiently and in terms of the long term health of the pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
.Coaches, please don't tell your pitchers to "push off" the rubber. It's bad advice kinetically, mechanically, efficiently and in terms of the long term health of the pitcher.

Amen!

But then again, I am so far out of my league what would I know.

if a pitcher is throwing strikes and has no pain or discomfort why change anything ?

Doughnutman,

I believe your “theory” has lots of merit to it, but one must be careful when describing what a player’s “natural arm motion and delivery” or “natural arm slot” is. Most kids throw with something close to what’s “natural” for them, until that 1st coach, dad or not, gets their hands on them. As soon as that happens, the “natural” things they did will have been modified, and then the theories all go out the window because its no longer possible to see what was “natural”.

Here’s something else that a lot of people don’t even consider. People used to get all bent out of shape and wanted my kid to change his slot from low three quarters to something higher, both as a fielder and a pitcher. But every time that happened, he’d experience arm and back problems, so I always told him to just go back to what worked.

What we eventually found out was, he had slight scoliosis which accounted for the back problems. When he “bent” over sideways which made his slot lower, his back didn’t hurt. But trying to throw like most kids are able, it caused back problems.

What we also found out he had a Type III acromion processes. Here’s a bit on it, http://www.aafp.org/afp/1998/0215/p667.html but you can check into it for yourself. What happened was, when he moved his arm slot higher, he was unknowingly creating an impingement and creating his own shoulder problems.

Of course we’ll never know what ultimately caused the problems, but those two things were definitely major contributors, and they are things that very seldom are considered by coaches or anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
if a pitcher is throwing strikes and has no pain or discomfort why change anything ?

That’s a pretty simple one to answer. The reason is, almost everyone THINKS they know how to improve what a pitcher does, and for sure almost everyone believes faster is better so they do things they believe will increase velocity.

gnats not on my watch

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Of course we’ll never know what ultimately caused the problems, but those two things were definitely major contributors, and they are things that very seldom are considered by coaches or anyone else.

You are 100% correct. Even at the upper levels of baseball, some still have no clue.

My son had a shoulder problem that reoccurred. Changed docs and got a diagnosis of a rotational deficit. Stretches made a huge difference. According to the doctor, these rotational deficits are getting increasing attention at college and pro level. Two words: sleepers stretch!

As for throwing motion, my son had an arm slot issue which was figured out a couple of years ago. I realized how he got it when I watched his dad throw. Son had been imitated what he was seeing.

Hey Guys the human arm has many uses, so when an arm affects, efficiency is impacted and issue occurs. When you have discomfort in an arm, the reasons can be for various,some that are apparent, while others are invisible. Most often, arm discomfort is due to accidents or drops. Ongoing pressure can also harm hands, resulting in higher arm and hand discomfort. Arm discomfort can be a indication of a more serious issue such as heart attack.Thanks a lot!!