Changing Base runners

Hmmm, don't ever let this happen, okay, good idea.

So if it did. My first thought, too bad, unless the umpire catches it before the pitch.

Now, if "I" could determine through process of elimination who the violators were I would be glad to enforce some outs for passing an advance runner.

Ex: Two runs have scored, I could refer to the scorebook and determine who's still on base. I can determine where he started. If the remaining baserunner was the lead off, or second runner, and was standing on 2nd or 3RD when the play occured, and he's now still standing on 2nd or 3rd, I could deduct that somebody passed him, and ring up one or two outs.

If however, R2 and R3 had swapped places, and both scored, I'd be hard pressed to try and sift it out.

Unless I knew for sure, myself, which runner scored first, far feteched IMO. Although I watch em touch the plate, I don't normally memorize their numbers or which order they scored, just that one isn't passed by the other on the way and that they both touch the plate.

I would not "ask the audience" in this case. If I wasn't absolutely sure, I would not, IMO, be able to take coaches, or scorekeeps word for it.

Ideally, know where their supposed to be, and ensure they return to the right spots after the time out. If they don't, put the ball in play, call somebody out for passing somebody.

Or, if in doubt before time is halted, check and correct it, before the pitch/play, call no body out, since they passed ea. other during dead ball, they can realign during dead ball as well, correct it and forget it..

JJK writes, "Ideally, know where their supposed to be, and ensure they return to the right spots after the time out. If they don't, put the ball in play, call somebody out for passing somebody.

Or, if in doubt before time is halted, check and correct it, before the pitch/play, call no body out, since they passed ea. other during dead ball, they can realign during dead ball as well, correct it and forget it.."

I can see that this would be a real mess to handle if it were to happen. But what about "not letting it get that far" if you as an umpire notice it happening?

As an umpire, if you saw the switching of baserunners (whether intentional or not) BEFORE the Timeout was over, would it be right intervene and tell the runners to get to their correct bases?

Or would it be right to just remain silent, THEN when the ball is out back into play, call the runner(s)out for passing another runner?

quote:

As an umpire, if you saw the switching of baserunners (whether intentional or not) BEFORE the Timeout was over, would it be right intervene and tell the runners to get to their correct bases?

Or would it be right to just remain silent, THEN when the ball is out back into play, call the runner(s)out for passing another runner?

I am thinking I would correct it if I saw it happening? After a dead ball, the umpire shall not put the ball back in play until all runners forced to return do so, and if the umpire doesnt' give em time too, it's his fault. So one could construe that to mean, we can't play until all runners have returned, so get where your supposed to be.
I think, I could sell that ruling.

If the ball went back in play, and F1 stepped off and said "hey Mr. Umpire Sir, these runners have switched places", I feel I'd be obligated to ring em up.

I can pretty much can guarantee Im ejecting someone (coach)for unsportsmanlike conduct.......maybe more than one. (players)

I dont go easy on cheaters......the players know what base they legally acquired and doing that is clearly cheating.

just my .02

I'm kinda' with "piaa_ump"... somebody could be going home early.

Regardless of my position, it would be difficult to notice the switch. Players have same color helmets, identical unis, no numbers on the front... If I did notice, I'm saying nothing (would I say "hey kid, you missed third?"). I don't believe for a minute that the players made the switch by accident, and it wouldn't surprise me if the switch placed faster Rs on 2nd &/or 3rd. It also wouldn't surprise me if this coach had done it before.

If I did not see the switch, I'm calling a dead ball after the play to see what the defensive beef is. Then, with my partner, I'm going to the official scorekeeper. Then after reconstructing the play, I'm the umpire... Let's say it went down like this:

Bases juiced w/ 1 out. After a defensive and offensive timeout, batter hits a line drive to the center field wall, and R2 and R3 score. After the play, the defense informs the umpire that the wrong runners scored and that during the TO, the runners had switched bases. After review with the official scorekeeper and each other, the umpires discover that R1 had become R2 and scored, R2 had moved to R1 and is now at 3rd, and R3 had scored easily. The BR is standing at 2nd clapping his hands after 2 RBIs.

Original R1: OUT! (passing the preceding runner); Original R2: OUT! (running bases intentionally in reverse order); Original R3: run doesn't count since the baserunning "mistakes" ocurred before he got home. Inning over. I believe that would stick. If the offensive coach peeps, I'm runnin' him. I'm then going to file every report I can with my Umpire Supervisor and the League. I'm sure there are other interpretatons that could achieve outs for the switched Rs as well.

There's a certain responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game. Something would have to be done immediately regardless of the actual runners and the switching. This isn't a judgment call. It wouldn't matter if I witnessed the switch, or confirmed it after the play. There are going to be outs, there will be 0 runs scored, and the coach could be going home.

Roger
Springfield, MO

Isn't there some sort of broad rule in some / all rule federations that talks about protecting the integrity of the game? Basically a band aid to catch something like this since they are cheating but doesn't really address it.

What about the line up card each coach turns in to the homeplate ump? Couldn't you also use that as a reference quickly in case you think something is up?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Isn't there some sort of broad rule in some / all rule federations that talks about protecting the integrity of the game? Basically a band aid to catch something like this since they are cheating but doesn't really address it.

What about the line up card each coach turns in to the homeplate ump? Couldn't you also use that as a reference quickly in case you think something is up?

Yes the 'band aid' is there. It basically gives the umpires some discretion at making a situation like this (cheating) right. This could also fall not just under unsportsmanlike conduct, but also under "travesty". As an umpire, I couldn't let that happen. It may sound big headed, but I couldn't. Ejection of the coach involved would an at the moment decision for me.

In most of our leagues the lineup cards are not mandatory and unofficial, so a trip to the scorekeeper would probably have to happen in my case if I didn't see the switch.

Roger

Here ya go NFHS Rule3-3-1-g-4
behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Here ya go NFHS Rule3-3-1-g-4
behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature.

I'm sending the base coach and the runners who changed bases to the parking lot. And if the BC wasn't the head coach, then the HC just might go too. No warning for that ****.