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changing your mind

fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
My son is a senior in high school. I have watched this site for a long time and really enjoyed it. i have never interacted just listened. My son has some schools looking at him. Some have asked him to play with chance of playing right away. Two of them are D3 schools. One with a very good academic as well as abseball. Up to about two weeks ago this is where my son said he wanted to go. long time interaction with coach. we have visited and seemed like he liked it. Now he received a call from local junior collge and he says he wants to go there. 3.6 GPA and almost 1800 on his SATs. I am very dissapointed. he says he likes the baseball program, the coach etc but feels that the D3 school is too small. He wants more of the collge atmosphere etc. I am trying to be supportive but feel he may be making a huge mistake. he has not told coaches at any schools yet, and told them he would not decide until after financial aid packages are finished. Any advice would be helpful
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T Texan1,000+ posts
Explain to him the ramifications of his potential choices. Have him sit down and analyze the situation, coming up with a list of pros and cons. After he comes up with the list, sit down with him and go over it. Make sure he is seeing all the issues.

Are there not other choices? Somewhat larger four year schools?

Yes, he needs to be happy where he goes. But he needs to also be happy in the long run. You can help guide that decision making process, without making the decision for him, ensuring he makes as good a decision as possible.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

Some things to consider...

Some JC's are located "in the shadows" of large 4 year schools and share community, social activites and many times academics. If indeed this is the case you might research enrolling at the 4 year at some level and concurrently playing at the JC. Of particular importance would be any transfer ramifications. I know it is done in CA, I would assume that it may in other states.

Also need to be remember that much of what gets accomplished the first two years is General Ed. and it arguably can be pretty interchangable. In fact the 4 year classes may be large (lecture halls)the JC classes much smaller offering more personal attnetion.

As far as future admission...research, but likely no issue. A certain % of freshman classes at many 4 years leave and the schools need to fill those spots after the masses that clammored to get in initially out of HS have already "settled" elsewhere. Many schools cry for transfers

Observation...In our neck of the woods we are seeing a great deal of "Blowback" from extrememely high achieving, high acdemic and high athletic kids from some of the best schools in the country...attending the best colleges possible chosen primarily by their parents...and then blowing out in their freshman fall and ending up at home.

Nothing better than a happy player at a college of his choice happily doing good work on and off the field.


Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
FOG...Well said...

I can agree, concur and empathise...Tough, tough, tough...My mistake, Sorry didn't see the "local" tag...In that case I would agree with Bee...Not sure he is going to get a "real" college expereicne at a Local JC...Likley a high school extension...

While I can see real value in JC given the right set of circumstances...I woudl agree with you...IMO players/students need to go cut their teeth outside of their home town whenever possible...While it is possible, It would take a GREAT deal of convincing to get me to agree to a local JC.

Sorry for the confusion.

Cool 44
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infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan, what is happening with your son happened with ours other than the JC entered our picture a bit later, but came with volumes of being the steps to a DI scholarship.
In fact, our sons were/are similar in size, and what your is being told about strength is more than familiar.
So let me suggest one option because, to be honest, the DI looming in this just creates more issues and potential for disappointment.
There are DIII programs with top academics and very good baseball where the coaches address the DI challenge by summer wood bat league placements.
Our son was lucky that such a coach, for an out of state DIII found ours in Northern CA and found his college roommate in Southern CA.
Each graduated from a top academic school in 4 years, each played and contributed from day one and played in NCAA post season championships 2 of the 4 years, and each had great summer experiences which included one spending a summer in the Cape Cod league and one playing Team USA while with the great franchise in Newport, RI.
If your son is like most, he is very competitive and DI "eats" and "churns" the competitive drives. The drive won't go away but the opportunity may well not occur even with the JC route.
There are ways to combine the two and have them work quite successfully, which our son and his college roommate were very lucky to find.
Last edited by infielddad
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Now he received a call from local junior collge and he says he wants to go there. 3.6 GPA and almost 1800 on his SATs. I am very dissapointed.

Nothing at all to be disappointed about imho. a) he is a great student and b) he wants to attend college. The only thing that matters in the end is what does his four year degree say imho. If he goes to the Juco and then transfers to UCLA for example, he won't even have to list the juco on his resume if he so desires. I have found that the first two years of college are very similar for most students regardless where they attend. English 101 here is the same as English 101 over there and so forth. Many juco students get their four year degrees from the most presitgious colleges in the nation and often times have overall higher GPA's because of the smaller class sizes and personalized instruction they recieved at the juco. I see it as a win/win and it is only a part of the overall college equation. I don't see this setting him back unless of course he does not apply himself at the juco.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Cleveland dad:

i am not dissapointed in my son as a person at all. he is a good student and works hard on the game. I just guess I had my own ideas about his education. he worked so hard in high school. I honetly hope and pray all things turn out the best for him and that it is a win win situatuion.We all love our kids and want the best. But my best for him might not be his best fro himself. we will Im sure survive this and be fine. thanks for your input
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan,
Some random thoughts:
Since the high school coach won't be paying the tuition, I would talk with him about his "guidance."
I agree that the choice does need to be made by your son, but I am not sure "happy" is the only deciding factor. "Fit" is the factor and that can be a combination of things and being satisfied and proud of your choice is one of them.
I would also try and get the school college guidance counselor involved, if possible. If they are good and have a relationship with your son, they can have a way of getting some things back in focus.
Finally, I think we as parents do need to recognize that sometimes our sons are trying to tell us something, but feel like we will be disappointed, so they are not direct. Some items in your post are quite similar to things we heard from some of our son's high school teammates.
Playing in college was not as important as other things, including attending a prominent national university and leaving baseball behind. It may be that your son is telling you that playing in college where it is a good "fit" for him isn't as important as being in a college that is a "good fit" but he isn't playing. Only guessing but it seems plausible to me from what you have posted.
Also,while I agree completely with CD that it is where he finishes, not where he starts, there truly are very few JC players who matriculate and play at UCLA, Berkeley, Santa Barbara, Davis, Riverside and San Diego.
When thinking in those terms, baseball may not be part of the discussion.
Bottom line, I think finding out from your son about his "passion" to play in college is pretty critical right now. It needs to be his passion, not yours and he needs to be able to know it is okay with you. If it truly is his passion, then the value of his education and the pathways through JC, DIII and other options can be more carefully and fully discussed with the risks/rewards better understood and included.
I also would encourage you and your son to consider DIII's outside of CA. What our son and our family found is the experience can be much different and more of that campus environment he seems to be discussing.
Last edited by infielddad
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:

IMO players/students need to go cut their teeth outside of their home town whenever possible...

.


Observer...while I agree with your above statement, you know as well as I do that some, not all, players are not ready to cut the apron string and because of that either have a hard time telling mom & dad, or are afraid that maybe they will appear weak to leave home.

After asking my son over and over and over during this process what were the important things to him in choosing the right "fit", close to home ended up ranking right up there with playing time. When I was 18 I knew I needed to get away and went into the service. We are all different and that's ok.

After reading fans's posts it dawned on me if maybe he is trying or wanting to let them know that he wants to stay close to home OR his friends are having more of an impact on him than the other important factors, i.e. academics, playing time, etc.

I had actually wanted my son to attend a D3 a few hours away that he had been accepted to and had a very prestigious academic tradition. He ended up signing with a NAIA program that is 1/2 the distance and has just as good academic reputation. I knew he was happy and let go of the D3.

Again, this is just my observation and .2cents worth.

Best of luck fan. I couldn't help but laugh about the part where he thinks he knows what is best. Boy, have I knocked my head against the wall on this subject enough times this year.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
young gun dad, just noticed your post.
I think in my heart part of the situation is he is wanting to stay closer to home. I think his peers are important to him right now,yet he says he wants to get an apartment with his friends and not live at home, but he would still only be an hour away. thanks for your support about banging your head against a wall. they are trying to grow up and we are trying to steer them in the right direction wherever it may be. i think what was said in an earlier post if he goes to a jc and does well academically and baseball he can find somewhere to play. if he does not do well in baseball he can possibly walk away and then go to the four year that he thinks is the best fit.he wants it all, good fit, play time etc etc he doesnt understand good fit emotionally , academically. they are 17 they dont look at the impact four years from now they live in today and what seems the best for today. when i was 17 i wanted to make my own decisions also, oh how i wished I would of listened to my parents. some boys might be more mature and can see the whole picture.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan,
I think I can appreciate where your son is with the desire to play DI and hearing from the JC coach that the JC is the roadmap.
It is important to appreciate that it might be the route. But I think your son needs to fully explore that with the JC coach, his players and by looking at their past successes on the field and with placements.
One of the most successful in Northern CA at 4 year placements is CSM. However, if you look at their website, you can see there are as many, if not more, that attend smaller schools including NAIA/DIII as attend stronger DI and DII's.
If the JC coach can be relied upon, then he should be able to spell out very clearly, and be willing to commit, to a roadmap for your son as to how he gets from here to there.
If that is done, it could be a great option. If the JC coach won't or cannot do that, just the process should be helpful for your son in this choice.
The other aspect, which is true, is that the coaches project your son to get better with more strength from a stronger strength program. What he needs to understand is that there are 100's of others being told exactly the same thing.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by fan: bottom line i think he thinks if he goes to a JC he will get a bigger school to look at him ... coaches that see him play think he has more upside down the road as he fills out and gets stronger
there is some logic there, but just a reminder that when it's time to make the DI transfer -
all the other guys have not been standing still while he fills out

he'll be competing against ..

1) all conference 6'3 190# recruited freshmen

2) upperclassmen with several yrs of proven DI success at that school & program
Last edited by Bee>
PH Play hard10+ posts
Sometimes a D1 coach has connections with juco coaches.They may contact that coach and tell them about a certain kid that they don't have a spot for or they would like to have in the next couple of years.Since scholarships are so limited for D1 schools the juco route is certainly a viable alternative.The kids get a chance to see the field for a few years with lots of playing time,get some development,get stronger,acquire additional skills,get some basic academic hours under their belt.
If their dream is to play D1 then they have a chance to persue that rather than being tied up with a D3 or D2.
Some kids are made for smaller schools and some kids would feel as if they missed out on the big time atmosphere.It is really all about what their dream is.For some going the juco route seems a roundabout way to the larger school but it is a great way to try to get to that next level.The kid just needs to be happy and feel like he has a chance to pppersue his dream.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan, I hope this also might be helpful.
I just checked the website for CSM.
In 2007, they placed 13 players.
Of those, 6 were with DI programs and of those 6, 4 received scholarships.
In the years 2005/06, they placed 11 with DI programs out of a total of 25 who went on to 4 year programs.
Of the 11, 6 received scholarships and 5 appear to be walk ons without athletic aid.
So, less than 50% of the players who move on do so to DI programs and less than 1/2 of those do so with any scholarship money. These are the stats despite CSM routinely being ranked in the top 10 in California JC baseball.
Again, I think CSM is toward the tops in CA in terms of placement with 4 year programs and it is one of the parts of recruiting that coaching staff uses very effectively.
Play Hard, our JC system in CA is quite different from TX as they do not permit athletic aid/scholarships. There were some DI programs and professional teams who used a few programs in the way you describe, but that would be the exception.
Last edited by infielddad
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan, you have asked some great questions throughout this thread. I am sorry about my lack of clarification.
CSM is College of San Mateo.
The JC's you mention are known to be in a very strong JC conference, perhaps one of the 3-4 best in CA from what I have read. San Mateo would be with the top schools in that conference, normally.
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Fan:

I want to ad a little to what infieddad has shared with you. My son played at one of the top high schools in the bay area. He did well but got "little love" from the D1's in our area. We marketed him to smaller more academic schools in the southeast and mid west. He ultimately got a couple of fair offers from a couple D1's. However, he choose a very good D3 (the same one that infielddad son went to).

He found the school to be very challenging academically, but equally important it allowed him to continue to play baseball. He was placed in the Great Lakes after his freshman year. He played well enough that he had the opportunity to move to one of several well respected "household name" universities. He choose to stay where he is at because he likes the experience that he is getting.

This summer he hopes (he has yet to get his contract) to play in the Northwoods League. Again, if he does he will have more opportunities than if he had gone to the local JC (which was an option).

He is getting an equivelent "big time" college experience. He has had the chance to play, travel all over the south, had a great summer in the midwest and is getting a first class education. I am doubtful that any of this would have happened if he had stayed home an gone to the JC.

There was a kid a year ahead of my son at his HS, that was a stud. Led the league in hitting his Jr. year, 4.0+ student and great SAT's (he had a scholy offer from a good NorCal D2 and a walkon roster with academic money from a smaller NorCal D1). He wanted a top flight D1 school with top academics.

Yet because of the competition in the state for limited spots at good schools, he choose to go to the local JC. He played some during his two years, but his performance was only average. He has far fewer opportunities to go to good academic schools than he did out of high school and his baseball career is probably over (he walked on to a SoCal UC school).

This kid is a great kid, however, what I learned is that the grass is not always greener, and that with good academics, you have far better options coming out of HS than as a JC transfer.

Good Luck!!
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Ilvbb

enjoyed your post. all that you say is exactly my feelings ,my fears etc. I printed out all these posts and had my son read them, there was no comment. he feels i am trying to force him into a school he does not want to be at. so if he wont listen to me, and he turns a deaf ear to those that have been through it then I dont know what else to say to him.It will be on him when he makes the decision and it doesnt work out. I hope it all goes the way he thinks it will and trullywant the best, but everything you say about coach, academics, chance to play good summer ball, all that is available to him and he is just stuck on this JC thing. w ehave time and hopefully he will change his mind. the sad thing for all us parents is that when they make thier mistakes we feel the pain also. thanks for all yur thoughts.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
fan, he hasn't made any choices or mistakes yet.
He sounds like a great young man who works hard in the classroom and is going through the confusion many do at this point.
Perhaps he is a bit unfocused with the options, the choices and with the good feelings that can come from coaches who are good recruiting.
He has time to work through all of these issues and reevaluate his options.
If I had any questions for him it would only be that he bought the JC coach before he did all his homework.
Hopefully, he will continue to do that.
Good luck and keep us posted.
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Fan:

My last thought on the subject. What really made an impact for my son was going to the schools that he considered and did three things: 1. spent the day on the campus, went to classes, ate in the dining hall and hung out with the kids. 2. Spent the nite on campus, again more time with the kids learning about what life at each school was truly like and 3. Spent most of an afternoon with the baseball team and coaches.

The last one really changed his prospective on what D3 ball was all about. He realized that a 21-22 year old senior, even at a D3, was far different than the kids that he knew and played with (many of which were JC players). He realized that he could have a enjoyable, comfortable, challenging experience where he could play baseball and see a part of the country that was completly new to him.

The day on campus let him experience what I as father was telling him. At this point he could make an informed decision that went beyond "the sacrafice" of not going to a big time D1 program.

Good Luck!
Last edited by ILVBB
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

We have one in Top California JC 2 1/2 hours away...And one in Top 60 DI out of state...And the boys best friend at an ultra academic DIII...all playing ball.

Between the three we have seen about every scenerio that is mentioned and that is possible regarding academics, athletics, transfers, Players going away, players staying home, JC's transferring to top 5 Di's...we have seen bad decisions and bad boys surprisingly turning to gold, can't miss golden boys "blowing out", We have seen some bizzare choices work and great fits fail miserably...and more.

If there is single differentiating factor in the long term success of every player we have seen so far...it is not schools...it is not initial school choices...but rather passion, some talent, character, desire, sacrifice, focus, work ethic. These players face challenges of all types, persevere and overcome. It is in their charcater. It is what they do. It is who they are. Tough times don't last, tough players do.

FOG...from your posts it is obvious that you care, that you communicate, that you are intelligent and thoguhful, that your heart is in the right place, that you understand the potential pitfalls. Based upon his outstanding success to date and his options, I would suggest that your son has engendered great deal of the/your attributes, ones that will serve him well and make him a success ragardless of the choice he makes. IMO, I belive that while you may agonize the choices (and we ALL do)In the end his success will depend more upon him, than it will his choice. No matter where he goes he will face challenges that you and he could not have forseen. He will be forced to come up with the goods and it will be up to him to do so. In the end your son IS the solution, the choice is not necessarily. You give them your very best. You mold them. You guide them. You counsel them. You live and die with their chocies and results. You steer them the best you can, but in the end when they walk out the door you have to trust them and their character. While the choice is important, it would appear to me that your son has the intelligence, athletic talent, character and supportive parents that he needs to succeed.

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
Infield08Infield081,000+ posts
Great words, O44!

fanofgame, you mention that "we have time and hopefully he will change his mind." This very well could happen! I was where you were just a few months ago and fretted daily (hourly?) about the path my son wanted to pursue. Through a number of circumstances we never could have envisioned, his focus totally changed within two weeks' time. So take heart! In the meantime, know that I and many other parents know what you are going through and we are always here to lend an ear and offer an encouraging word.
Last edited by Infield08
B BIGSKI22Member
I'm new to the site and haven't posted much, but here it goes.

I was drafted out of highschool as an outfielder. Instead of signing my scout thought i would like to go to a junior college to develop and if i want to sign the following year that would be an option.

The only thought i had about a junior college at that time was my local DIII JC and they were horrible. I was reasured that the level of baseball there was very competive and i went. It was a D1 JC and there were 17 of us over my two years who were drafted. We had an incredible team and most everyone signed either D1, or respectable D2 or NAIA schools.

You can only play baseball for so long. If you have the talentto play, play where the talent is. Education is what you make it not where you go. If baseball is a posibility after junior college then so be it.

Education will always be there at any level. I have a teammate who is currently in Med school after his pro career ended.

I say play where you want/can and continue to do the best you can in school too. If you play well in JC and hit the books you will still be able to go where you want.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Observer 44 and everyone else,
great responses. I have really enjoyed all your input. Thats why i love this site. People who donthave kids in baseball or other sports that want to compete at a higher level dont comprehend how difficult it is when you have a student athlete. My son is making a trip down tomorrow to meet the JC coachand see facilities by himself. Does not want either myself or husband to go.I agree with you 044 that we have imparted the basics and now it is up to him and his desire and work ethic to persevere wherever he is. I have to let go and let that process beginn, and like you siad be here and supportive throught mistakes if they or ehn they occur. Thankyou for your kind words and compliments . Its nice to think someone thinks Im intelligent because my 17yo son doesnt think i know too much these days Lol . I was probably the same way.I look forward to interacting with all of you on future blogs etc.
D dawgswood10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.

We have one in Top California JC 2 1/2 hours away...And one in Top 60 DI out of state...And the boys best friend at an ultra academic DIII...all playing ball.

Between the three we have seen about every scenerio that is mentioned and that is possible regarding academics, athletics, transfers, Players going away, players staying home, JC's transferring to top 5 Di's...we have seen bad decisions and bad boys surprisingly turning to gold, can't miss golden boys "blowing out", We have seen some bizzare choices work and great fits fail miserably...and more.

If there is single differentiating factor in the long term success of every player we have seen so far...it is not schools...it is not initial school choices...but rather passion, some talent, character, desire, sacrifice, focus, work ethic. These players face challenges of all types, persevere and overcome. It is in their charcater. It is what they do. It is who they are. Tough times don't last, tough players do.

FOG...from your posts it is obvious that you care, that you communicate, that you are intelligent and thoguhful, that your heart is in the right place, that you understand the potential pitfalls. Based upon his outstanding success to date and his options, I would suggest that your son has engendered great deal of the/your attributes, ones that will serve him well and make him a success ragardless of the choice he makes. IMO, I belive that while you may agonize the choices (and we ALL do)In the end his success will depend more upon him, than it will his choice. No matter where he goes he will face challenges that you and he could not have forseen. He will be forced to come up with the goods and it will be up to him to do so. In the end your son IS the solution, the choice is not necessarily. You give them your very best. You mold them. You guide them. You counsel them. You live and die with their chocies and results. You steer them the best you can, but in the end when they walk out the door you have to trust them and their character. While the choice is important, it would appear to me that your son has the intelligence, athletic talent, character and supportive parents that he needs to succeed.

Cool 44
.


Wow! What a fantastic post!
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
To everyone involved in this post,

I came back to visit this post and read through the entire post. Wow what a great post. Alot of very supportive posters on here and i again thank you for your kind and encouraging words. will let you know how it all turns out.god luck with all of your sons upcoming seasons, in Hs, college or pros.We are really excited for senior year.
R redstormdad10+ posts
fanofgame,

After reading all of these posts responding to your query about your dilemma (but I believe its really your son's) there are options that could work out for your son. The good from all this is he has choices and he should be able to think whats best for him, which is also part of development as an adult. We had hoped our son would have been signed and placed at a D1 right out of high school, but fate has a funny way of changing all of this.

Our son was somewhat slight in size (actually thin) and the D1 coaches were interested, but hesitant because of his lack of physical development. The door also was open for some local JC's in our area and one JC coach liked what he saw in our son's abilities. He made the roster and had two seasons as a starting catcher, with lots of scouts and D1 through D3's recruiting him his sophmore year.

He's now at a D1 of his liking in New York and will be their starter behind the plate come Feb. 22nd. He was able to complete most, if not all his GE requirements in JC, which helped getting through admissions. Yes, its not quite like being in a 4 year, but he played more than he would have if he went directly from HS to a 4 year, which he really honed his playing skills in JC.

Your son isn't wrong either way he goes! And if he chooses the D3 route instead of the JC (or visa versa) then good for him. He's fortunate to have this kind of attention!

Good luck to your son, you and your family!

redstormdad
Last edited by redstormdad
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
redstorm,
thanks , Its nice to hear success stories from the parents of kids who have gone to the JCs to further their skills being whatever they are,strength, speed whatever you know what Im talking about. I am at a lot more peaceful state about it as it is his choice. And I have looked over a lot of rosters that take a lot of JC transfers. so it will be up to him. he is working really hard and believes this is his best choice.Our family is just focusing on the senior season. He has a place to play in the fall at the JC,so again thanks for the story about your son. great job

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