Charts

I am not a coach but...son told me that he makes his young pitchers chart every pitch, which they never did before, and it has definetly made a difference in their performance.

He also has a parent chart where each ball was hit by the opposing team member.

Originally Posted by ironhorse:

What type of charts do you guys use in game or in practice? And how do you chart (coaches, players, mgrs)?

 

My first thought is, are you using the word ‘CHART” interchangeably with the word “statistics”. or when you say “chart” are you actually talking about some type of drawing, like a line, bubble, or pie chart?

 

Offensively we chart opposing pitch tendencies, opposing pitcher tendencies,

 

What’s the difference?

 

How do you physically do the “charting”, how do you store the data, how do you present it? IOW, are you just making marks on a piece of paper then looking over all those papers manually, or is the data being put into some kind of software that creates reports for analysis?

 

and quality AB (let's not debate the QAB again...). 

 

This sounds like more of a stat than a chart in form, but what matters is how it’s used.

 

We chart first pitch strikes and what we call "3-pitch win" for pitchers.  

 

Whatever they are, they too sound more like a stat than a chart.

 

My pitching coach obviously charts a ton on info on every pitch we throw, but that's a whole nother ball of wax.

 

Just like with the tendencies, how do you physically do the “charting”, how do you store the data, how do you present it?

 

The reason I ask is, it’s really inefficient to have a ream of paper with all kinds of different data on it to analyze, which is why the Sabermetric explosion didn’t take place until there was mass access to computers.

 

I'd like to chart more in practice, both results and scoring for competitive drills, but find it hard without a lot of student mgrs. …

 

What else do you feel would give you a lot of information that would be valuable enough to justify the “cost” of gathering, storing, presenting, and analyzing the data?

 

Are all the things you “chart” in addition to the “normal” stats like ABs, hits, runs, SBs, etc.?

 

What is your goal or what are you trying to find out? There’s no limit on what data can be tracked, but without a way to use it, there’s really no reason to spend any time doing it. FI, if you want to track QABs that your business. But if you don’t have a use for it, you’re wasting valuable time.

 

Are you using one of the scoring APPs or programs?

 

My SUGGESTION is for you to take a look at as many different stats as you can before deciding on what more you want to do. The reason as you’ve already noted is “cost”. Not cost in $$$, but cost as in resources that include time as well as $$$.

 

If you’d like, I’ll gladly send you literally hundreds of stats/charts for you to look at to try to give you ideas. Just PM me your e-mail address and I’ll send them along.

So he has the younger guys who aren't throwing chart what their teammate on the mound is doing?  That does sound good. 

Stats-
A veryomg answer is needed so I'll do my best when I'm short of time.

"Chart" to me is a verb and a noun in this instance. It can mean the physical charts we use or the act of tracking information. Some of it can be statistical in nature, some is simply information to give the players. I don't want to argue semantics about what is a stat and what isn't, this is just my view.

The QABs are kept all year as an average, as is something we call a non-productive out. We have a player keep those on a chart with basic tally marks and compiled by me in a spreadsheet and they're posted weekly or more often in the dugout.

Pitch tendencies are charted by a player as well. Each opposing pitcher gets his own sheet, and well track what he threw in what count, noting whether it was a LHH or RHH. We look at these over a span of time based on how many times we face the same kid, some could be over a span of years in district play. Some times the tendencies vary by pitcher, sometimes by the coach calling the pitches regardless of whose on the mound.

Pitcher tendencies we chart as well and that chart has things like # of looks to 2b, time hold with runner at 1b, time to home, slide step times, etc.

If we're facing a guy we have a decent set of info on from the past, generally at least 15 hitters or so, I'll put together some type of report to give the kids before we face him again.

Some teams use charts for the catcher's plays, some chart OF plays.  The possibilities are limitless. Colleges track a lot more as they have a lot more manager type kids handy.


We use game changer for stats, and that's a conversation for another thread. I mainly an just curious what guys care to track, how they do it and how they use the information.

Yes, this is his first experience with his own team and he is applying how he learned. He was shocked that not one of them even did kit in HS. He is also teaching them the importance of first pitch strikes all seen through charts. 

You want your players to learn, well in baseball you learn by doing!

 

I can't help but chuckle by stats response. I mean who doesn't know what chart pitches means?

Stats,

Charting pitches is charting what the pitcher threw. And keeps count of the pitches. Very simple and you don't need some fancy stat program to let players see correlations between a good game and a lousy one.

KIS..keep it simple.

Pitchers chart each others pitches in college all the way up to the pro level.

Originally Posted by ironhorse:

…"Chart" to me is a verb and a noun in this instance. It can mean the physical charts we use or the act of tracking information. Some of it can be statistical in nature, some is simply information to give the players. I don't want to argue semantics about what is a stat and what isn't, this is just my view.

No argument needed. I was just trying to find out what you were doing. But no matter what you call it, it’s all statistics.

 

Can you give an example of simple information you’d give to the players and what you’d be giving it to them for?

The QABs are kept all year as an average, as is something we call a non-productive out. We have a player keep those on a chart with basic tally marks and compiled by me in a spreadsheet and they're posted weekly or more often in the dugout.

 

And what do you do with them other than post them? Can I assume in this instance “Chart” means a piece of paper?

Pitch tendencies are charted by a player as well. Each opposing pitcher gets his own sheet, and well track what he threw in what count, noting whether it was a LHH or RHH. We look at these over a span of time based on how many times we face the same kid, some could be over a span of years in district play. Some times the tendencies vary by pitcher, sometimes by the coach calling the pitches regardless of whose on the mound.

 

That’s pretty standard. So if you’re gonna play against pitcher “X” and you’ve seen him 5 times previously, how do you go about gleaning information about him. Do you have to flip through a bounch of papers trying to find his stuff, then collate that information in order to see the trends, or do you just press a button in some kind of software?

Pitcher tendencies we chart as well and that chart has things like # of looks to 2b, time hold with runner at 1b, time to home, slide step times, etc.

 

That’s a boatload of information! Personally I love it, but I’m still wondering if you have access to the data through some piece of softqware.

If we're facing a guy we have a decent set of info on from the past, generally at least 15 hitters or so, I'll put together some type of report to give the kids before we face him again.

 

Now there’s something I’ve been looking for. I’m not knocking you at all, but when you say I'll put together some type of report, it leads me to believe you’re doing this stuff by hand and that it can be very inconsistent.

Some teams use charts for the catcher's plays, some chart OF plays.  The possibilities are limitless. Colleges track a lot more as they have a lot more manager type kids handy.

 

I agree, the possibilities are limitless.

We use game changer for stats, and that's a conversation for another thread. I mainly an just curious what guys care to track, how they do it and how they use the information.

 

I think that’s a worthwhile endeavor! Too many people track all kinds of data but haven]t got much of an idea about how to use them. I know literally hundreds of coaches who have reams and reams of charts/stats but either don’t use them at all, or at least don’t use them very efficiently. When that happens, the 1^st thing you usually hear is how worthless starts are.

Another big problem with this stuff is explaining them and how they’re being used. When people are told a stat is being used to do something but aren’t told how it’s used, there’s a definite loss of trust.

 

Take a look at this. ====> http://mitch.watnik.com/symposium/bickel%20eric.pdf

 

I know the guy who wrote the program and can tell you it is a terrific piece of software. It’s no longer sold, but you might be able to get hold of an old copy. It’s hard to beat the team of a PhD in Statistics and Dean Stotz, the asst HC AT Stanford for 37 seasons.

 

I’ve put this stuff up before, but there’s no harm in putting it up again. The picture is the screen for a little program I was messing with some time back to chart pitches. The reports are just some examples I generated from playing around with the program to show just a bit of what was possible once the data is in a computer.

Coach,
I was refering to charting your own pitchers pitches ans counts,  but I guess that is done on the pitching coaches side.

Originally Posted by TPM:

I can't help but chuckle by stats response. I mean who doesn't know what chart pitches means?

 

JEEZIS on rollerskates! After several months I took you off my ignore list, and what’t the first freakin thing I see? He was asking about much more than charting pitches, and even said
“chart” can be either a non or a verb. I was honestly trying to find out how I could best help him because using and analyzing baseball stats can be a black hole to suck up valuable time if you don’t know what you’re doing. But of course you know it all and would rather take a personal shot at me then add to the conversation.

 

So its back on the ignore list for you. I wonder if less than an hour off the list is some kind of record.

 Stats wins again!

Trying to answer em basically in order and staying on topic. This is a topic that interests me, so I prefer to not have it hijacked in an online pissing contest (no blame assigned anywhere, just being honest).

 

Generally speaking the info we collect is either used for in-game purposes, i.e. what pitch to sit on in what count, or competitive/ranking data i.e. QAB avg or 3-pitch win avg compared to the rest of the team. Gives kids some insight on decision making and statistical feedback.

 

The QABs are posted, used in discussion, and used in lineup decision making. I do it be complete season, district, and last 5 games so I have an idea of timeliness. And yes, chart is a piece of paper on a clipboard.

 

For pitch tendencies I cram the info down into a sheet I hand the kids broken down by count. So a LHH knows that 80% of the time this guy throws FB 1-0.

 

No need for software here. We just tell them. 1.5 to the plate or 2-looker or what not.It's discussed pre-game and in-game to remind them.

 

And i am doing a lot by hand, but it's not inconsistent. I simply crunch the numbers. Basic scouting report stuff.

 

Quite honestly the gamechanger tracked stats don't mean the world to me. Good to see, but I like the stats we track on our own. I feel like those give us the best indication of future success overall. Not all encompassing by any means, but I'm comfortable with them.

 

And I've seen your stuff before and really like it. I just think that would almost require a full-time position on my staff, and it's not the most pressing need right now. Maybe one day...

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your truly interested in examples I'm more than happy to send you a few things you can see, just message me an email. Much simpler and perhaps more HS kid-friendly than some of your charts, but handy.

 

The info we collect can be flawed at some point I'm sure, but it's worked well so far for communicating with kids and making decisions. But always open to tweaks.

Sorry coach. Just get upset when he highjacks peoples topics.  I wouldn't have replied to your question.

No sweat at all.

Pitching coach handles all the charting during games. But he's started having the guys chart each other's bullpens on a score sheet he created. Keeps them a little more focused and accountable every pitch.

I get jealous of the college guys resources sometimes.

Originally Posted by ironhorse:

…Pitching coach handles all the charting during games. But he's started having the guys chart each other's bullpens on a score sheet he created. Keeps them a little more focused and accountable every pitch.

Can you post one of those “scoresheets”?

 

What’s done with all those “scoresheets”, bullpen or game? I’m trying to find out how the information is being used.

I get jealous of the college guys resources sometimes.

 

For many years I asked our HC to approach the AD and principal with the idea of getting a student to act as a “manager, with the incentive being to get credit for their mandatory community service. Nothing happened under that HC, but the one I now score for did exactly that, and last spring we had 2 girls for both the V and JV teams. The coach who took over the program where I used to be, offered team manager positions to players who couldn’t make the team, so they could work out with the team and travel with them. He got 5 kids who were cut to sign on as managers.

I don't have any of them, but they're very basic. They simply track if a pitch was thrown to the location intended i.e. 4-seam down and away, BB out of the zone, CU strike, etc.

 

And I think you're over thinking the "what's being done with it" piece. It's simple. If a kid throws a 4-seam for a strike 90% of the time in the pen, but the changeup 20%, we know what we need to work on. Or if he's throwing that 4-seam 90% in the pen but 50% in the game we need to figure that out.

 

We chart and track information for two reasons primarily: one is to have information to use in our development of kids i.e. is his velocity increasing, is his command increasing. If we're not seeing improvement we need to change something. If you don't track all that with data sometimes it's hard to be completely accurate. Subjectivity can be good and bad.

 

The second is that measurement=motivation. When kids have tangible feedback they can control and see improvement on, they tend to stay a little more motivated. So we pick out want we want to achieve and find ways to track it. That's it. Nothing fancy or sabermetric-ish.  I've just having this info is better than not.

 

I am not sure what you mean by resources.

In college just like in pro ball a lot of time passes between starts.They have to keep focused. Plus they too have to be accountable.  Some ML pitchers keep notes on other pitchers for their team. Chris Carpenter used to do this for the rookies.

Sounds like busywork, but as you said you have to keep the team focused and accountable and not just idle on the bench.  If that works for you that's all that matters.

 

For younger guys there is no more fooling around in the dugout.

I got really interested in this thread and was about to post.... And then he who shall not be named came in.

Post away man. I want to hear what people do. You only have to read the responses you choose to.

Curt Schilling entered all his data into a laptop on his own time. His laptop was on in the dugout when he pitched. He was often checking data on the next three or four hitters. I'm sure other pitchers do the same. But I believe the data had become more readily available by the team.

 

its important to take all possible considerations into the stats from charts. Let's say a hitter takes the first pitch in ten at bats you chart versus your team. It doesn't mean much if eight first pitches were balls. The question has to be what does the hitter do with the first pitch if it's a strike? With only two samples you don't have an insight. What the hitter does with the first strike can be dependent on the count.

 

When end we charted for the travel team the best data we got was pitching tendencies of the opposition (a reflection on the coach calling the pitches) and where to defense hitters based on spray chart data.

Son kept a journal about hitters he faced while in pro ball.  Usually because you will face them sooner or later at another level. In college the pitching coach knows about opposing hitters, so your work is given to you about them. But pitchers chart their own pitchers so they have the info readily available.  And it helps tell a story if pitchers are injured.

I think the whole point in having the HS players do as much as they can while younger is that it sets the tone for the future, for them to actually understand why you do things a certain way. And to be a part of the game while on the bench.  Sorry if I am repeating myself but that is how it should be, IMO.

Sabermetrics and stats are in, but for the players old school works for many.

Stats4gnats I would love to see your charts. Not sure how to PM you my info though.

Originally Posted by CoachW:

Stats4gnats I would love to see your charts. Not sure how to PM you my info though.

 

What would you like to see? I do literally hundreds of different metrics. You’re welcome to see examples of any or all.

 

If you want to communicate with me with all the drama from the local drama queens trying to one-up each other in acting childish, just start a dialog with me. Click on the link to me and go to start dialog. It used to be called a PM for private message but they changed it to dialog.

Originally Posted by James G:

I got really interested in this thread and was about to post.... And then he who shall not be named came in.

 

So instead of posting something thoughtful and intelligent, you opted for a childish post. Did you ever think of trying to communicate like an adult rather than some 6YO in a schoolyard? If something interests you, comment on it. If it doesn’t, don’t do anything. It’s just that simple. If something interests you and you don’t comment on it because of some personal dislike, exactly who is it that’s being hurt?

How mature is this response? A mature person would have moved past the comment.