Check Swings

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I've always wondered this and never asked aloud, but a situation came up in a CWS game where this was asked and I think it's a very reasonable question.

The situation was two strikes on a hitter, pitch thrown, hitter checks his swing (replay showed he did not swing), plate ump gives the usual point at batter and "yes he did" and rings him up.

Why would a plate ump ever attempt to make a call on a check swing if he has help at 1st or 3rd base (depending on whether the batter is lefty or righty)? It just makes no sense. This is the College World Series, so there are umps at each base. Just ask the 1st base ump for help...he's got a much better view, and that's all he's looking for in this case. The plate ump is looking for pitch location which is plenty for him to worry about.

Now, I understand it when there are only two or three umps, and there is no ump at 1st or 3rd. But otherwise, just ask for help. The ump took the bat out of that guy's hands when he could have gotten help and hopefully made the right call. Again, it just makes absolutely no sense.

It is the plate umpires job to call ball and strikes. The rules allow the defense only to appeal. The PU, if he is uncertain may request help on his own. If he doesn't then he is satisfied with his call.

Where would we stop in asking umpires to second guess themselves? Fans may disagree with that call just as they may disagree with tag plays and pitches that the umpire belives hit the inside corner at the knees. It's part of the game.

And how can an umpire take the bat out of a batter's hands when so many coaches and fans will tell you that the hands are part of the bat?

quote:

Why would a plate ump ever attempt to make a call on a check swing if he has help at 1st or 3rd base (depending on whether the batter is lefty or righty)? It just makes no sense.

Its because the rules do not permit him to do that...The plate umpire, per the rules, is to call all balls and strikes..........the base umpire has no jurisdiction on balls and strikes with the obvious exception of the limited role he can play on an appeal of a checked swing from the defense.....

To do what you suggest would involve changing the rules..........good luck with that.....


9.04
(a) The umpire-in-chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to:
(1) Take full charge of, and be responsible for, the proper conduct of the game;
(2)Call balls and strikes;
(3) Call and declare fair balls and fouls except those commonly called by field umpires;
(4) Make all decisions on the batter;
(5) Make all decisions except those commonly reserved for the field umpires;
(6) Decide when a game shall be forfeited;
(7) If a time limit has been set, announce the fact and the time set before the game starts;
(8) Inform the official scorer of the official batting order, and any changes in the lineups and batting order, on request;
(9) Announce any special ground rules, at his discretion.


(b) A field umpire may take any position on the playing field he thinks best suited to make impending decisions on the bases. His duties shall be to:
(1) Make all decisions on the bases except those specifically reserved to the umpire-in-chief;
(2) Take concurrent jurisdiction with the umpire-in-chief in calling “Time,” balks, illegal pitches, or defacement or discoloration of the ball by any player.
(3) Aid the umpire-in-chief in every manner in enforcing the rules, and excepting the power to forfeit the game, shall have equal authority with the umpire-in-chief in administering and enforcing the rules and maintaining discipline.
(c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief (unless another umpire may have been designated by the league president) shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.

Doesn't a tiny little bit of common sense have to play into these rules though? If there is a pitch where a batter checks his swing and it could go either way, but the plate ump calls a ball, isn't the defense always going to ask for the appeal? Of course, and if they don't then they didn't think the batter offered anyway, so it's not penalty to anyone. Shouldn't the goal always be to get the call right?

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Doesn't a tiny little bit of common sense have to play into these rules though? If there is a pitch where a batter checks his swing and it could go either way, but the plate ump calls a ball, isn't the defense always going to ask for the appeal? Of course, and if they don't then they didn't think the batter offered anyway, so it's not penalty to anyone. Shouldn't the goal always be to get the call right?

The answer to that question is the same.....the rules are written that the umpires decision such as fair or foul, ball or strike is final........(with the obvious exception of an appeal on a call of ball only by the defense....)

I would have to do some research on when that option was added....

To get what you want you would need to seek a change the rules of baseball......

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Shouldn't the goal always be to get the call right?

No. The goal is to get it correct based on the rules and accepted mechanics. Media propaganda and complete rubbish.

Common sense, judgment, and fair play are all part of it. However, the rules make up the majority of it. Nothing is determined outside of what the rules allow.

The rules are what they are. To get a change of them, propose a change of them. And, we will see where it goes from there.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Doesn't a tiny little bit of common sense have to play into these rules though? If there is a pitch where a batter checks his swing and it could go either way, but the plate ump calls a ball, isn't the defense always going to ask for the appeal? Of course, and if they don't then they didn't think the batter offered anyway, so it's not penalty to anyone. Shouldn't the goal always be to get the call right?

One thing that you fail to recognize is that the umpire believed he got it right. We don't make calls that we believe be in error.

Fans want their view and biased opinion to have the same weight as an umpire's who is 4 to 6 feet from the catcher with a great view, unless the catcher stands up, and who has no vested interest in the outcome of the game.

I saw a study years ago by MLB in which they concluded that

I got a question about if the ump is unsure he can go to the first / third ump for help - does he make a call and then ask OR does he go right away and then it's the base ump's call? In 17 years of coaching HS baseball (to my recollection) I've never seen a ump go right away to a base ump on a check swing. I don't have a problem however they do it - just curious about what the mechanic is being taught. Reason I ask is on TV it seems that plate umps go without making a call but you can't hear what they're saying so not sure how they do it.

A pet peeve of mine at the HS level is when on a check swing the defense asks for an appeal and the plate ump doesn't ask. I realize there are some coaches who will ask on everything and with those guys I can see taking that stance on obvious ones he didn't go. But I feel I'm a coach that will not ask unless it's really close or he did actually swing. I'm not going to ask and waste time on swings that are obvious. In this case get to know which coach is which and if it's a guy like me then ask.

Honestly I don't care if you work out ahead of time that the field ump that he backs you up. I would prefer the right call made but if you want to shut me up then ask - even if he's in the B / C position. If I get the appeal and it's ruled he didn't swing then I'm done but if you don't ask then I'm going to keep chirping. Whether that's right or wrong is up for debate but if you grant the appeal I promise I will shut up. Umps need to realize which coach is wasting time and which are legitimately asking.

First, if the PU is unsure, he usually rules it a ball and waits for the defense to appeal. Sometimes, F2 will ask without pointing to the BU to indicate to all that he is asking.

Second, in FED games, the PU is given the option of asking for help or not. Unless that has changed, some take it very personal and won't ask regardless. In OBR and I believe NCAA, the PU has to ask if the defense appeals. I think they should ask every time. Even for those who want to be annoying about it b/c some really don't know what a half swing is.

Third, if a half swing involves a potential uncaught third strike, then the PU should ask immediately without being prompted by the defense. This helps to put no one at a disadvantage where it could be prevented. So, it may be situational when the PU asks the BU without being prompted first.

Coach,

We cannot ask for help if we rule a swing (a strike). No one, not even an umpire can appeal a strike.

The defense can appeal a ball call on a checked swing.

When a catcher stands up and blocks me out, I will go to my partner, but I will not announce my ruling first. If I was certain enought to do that, I wouldn't need help from my partner.

In all cases, I want honesty from my partner. What's the worst case? Another strike? No problem.

In OBR an appeal to one's partner is required if requested. Technically it is not required in FED, however, I have never denied a request.

quote:

In all cases, I want honesty from my partner. What's the worst case? Another strike? No problem.

Exactly - and it's all his (my partner's) fault. It's almost like a coffee break.