Chipper Jones

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Originally posted by biggerpapi:

Is he a Hall of Famer?

In a word - YES.

Chipper Jones has Hall of Fame stats but if he gets in then Manny Ramirez gets in too. Manny has him beat in every category and they have astoundingly similar plate appearances.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Chipper Jones has Hall of Fame stats but if he gets in then Manny Ramirez gets in too. Manny has him beat in every category and they have astoundingly similar plate appearances.

Well, there might be one little thing that gets in the way of Manny's enshrinement...

"Probably the three or four best players that I've ever seen don a baseball uniform have this cloud over [the] top of them," he said. "That's very unfortunate, but I commend A-Rod for coming out and standing up for his wrongdoings, being a man about it, taking it head-on and let people make their judgments. That being said, I think A-Rod, with or without steroids, is a Hall of Famer. Same as Barry Bonds. ---- Quote Chipper Jones.

Doesn't sound like Chipper has any problem with steroid era players getting into the Hall. I guess it's up to the writers to keep out the ne'er-do-well latino idiota.

Chipper is easily a Hall of Famer especially as a third baseman, the one position that is under represented in the Hall.

10 is the man! Love Chipper...

Chipper also did it as a switch hitter. Probably the best switch hitter behind Mickey. Certainly the best power switch hitter behind Mickey. Having watched him for many years, he is one heck of a defensive 3rd baseman as well.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Chipper also did it as a switch hitter. Probably the best switch hitter behind Mickey. Certainly the best power switch hitter behind Mickey.

Perhaps you forgot about Hall-of Famer Eddie Murray. Lifetime stats:

BA .287
HR 504
RBI 1917
OPS .836

Chipper is in.
Manny will not be.

Look out for lil' Tex, (and with a hot Spring bat).
as a premo run producing switch hitter, and maybe of all time.

As for top SH's, also remember Eddie Murray, Pete Hustler, the two SH 2b R Alomar, and Frankie Frisch, and
of course Lance Berkman, Bernie Williams and a couple of Davis's

500 homers (not likely) would make him a first ballot choice. Otherwise I'd bet he makes it in the first three years. Which year would depend on the competition.

Yes. First ballot as far as I'm concerned.

Switch hitter that is batting over .300 from both sides. Here is Chipper compared to Mickey Mantle - another switch HOF (data courtesy of JMoff from another thread)

HSBB Web Switch Hitting Thread

AB--Mantle 8102 Chipper 8142
Runs--Mantle 1677 Chipper 1505
Hits--Mantle 2415 Chipper 2490
extra base hits--Mantle 952 Chipper 966
HRs--Mantle 536 Chipper 436
RBI--Mantle 1509 Chipper 1461
BB--Mantle 1733 Chipper 1404
K's--Mantle 1710 Chipper 1278
Bat. Ave--Mantle .298 Chipper .306
OBP--Mantle .421 Chipper .405
Slug.--Mantle .557 Chipper .536
OPS--Mantle .978 Chipper .941

If Chipper played in Mickey Mantle"s era he is in.

Everything is skewed now, due to steroids, but the hall is starting to reconsider, and look at those players that are perceived to be "clean." Chipper certainly falls under the clean category, and likely considered a top 5 switch hitter of all time.

IMHO he is in!

Thought I would add another switch-hitting Hall-of-Famer for comparisons sake. Chipper will probably be a first balloter, especially with so many guys clouded by PEDs.

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HSBB Web Switch Hitting Thread

AB--Mantle 8102 Chipper 8142 Murray 11336
Runs--Mantle 1677 Chipper 1505 Murray 1627
Hits--Mantle 2415 Chipper 2490 Murray 3255
extra base hits--Mantle 952 Chipper 966 Murray 1099
HRs--Mantle 536 Chipper 436 Murray 504
RBI--Mantle 1509 Chipper 1461 Murray 1917
BB--Mantle 1733 Chipper 1404 Murray 1333
K's--Mantle 1710 Chipper 1278 Murray 1516
Bat. Ave--Mantle .298 Chipper .306 Murray .287
OBP--Mantle .421 Chipper .405 Murray .359
Slug.--Mantle .557 Chipper .536 Murray .476
OPS--Mantle .978 Chipper .941 Murray .836

Mantle could have tested positive for amphetamines or testosterone based on some evidence presented regarding his hip injection during the 1961 home run chase. We can only say that when Chipper was tested he was not dirty. We cannot say that his entire career was clean. Vote all worthy players in regardless of their "integrity". And regardless of whether you like them personally or not.


In a society full of daily pill poppers, the hypocrisy of the whole thing is astounding.

THIS!

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In a society full of daily pill poppers, the hypocrisy of the whole thing is astounding.

Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

Just curious, does anyone avoid movies where actresses enhance their breasts?

Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference? Just curious, does anyone avoid movies, tv shows or other entertainment where actresses have enhanced their breasts?

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

The thing that bothers me is I KNOW there are so many others that are guilty but have never been caught! So the one's that haven't been caught with their hand in the cookie jar are pronounced clean and we put a halo on their heads and BLAST the poor souls that DID get caught!
PS- I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME!

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
The thing that bothers me is I KNOW there are so many others that are guilty but have never been caught! So the one's that haven't been caught with their hand in the cookie jar are pronounced clean and we put a halo on their heads and BLAST the poor souls that DID get caught!

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Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
The thing that bothers me is I KNOW there are so many others that are guilty but have never been caught! So the one's that haven't been caught with their hand in the cookie jar are pronounced clean and we put a halo on their heads and BLAST the poor souls that DID get caught!

So the better way to go is to IGNORE those who were caught and pronounce everyone clean??? Let's empty the prisons too while we are at it as someone there is probably innocent.

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Originally posted by Prime9:
So the better way to go is to IGNORE those who were caught and pronounce everyone clean??? Let's empty the prisons too while we are at it as someone there is probably innocent.

Not what I'm saying at all...
My point is we may be a little too harsh on some and too quick to proclaim others "clean".
I've never used steroids but I have some friends who did, not sure how they compare to your average hardened criminal who is imprisoned, but I'm thinking there may be a slight difference...

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
So the better way to go is to IGNORE those who were caught and pronounce everyone clean??? Let's empty the prisons too while we are at it as someone there is probably innocent.

Aahhh yes, the old comparing apples to oranges argument.

Funny how the public witch hunt has only gone after the biggest names. A few pedistrian players have been thrown to the curb along the way, but they are simply collateral damage in the quest for the big prize.

So out of several thousand players in that 90's-00's time frame, only these 100 or so players that have been implicated by various sources used PEDs? And the only ones drug through the mud, prosecuted, etc. are the biggest names? And their hasn't been an outcry of condemnation of PED use from the players themselves and their union because......?

I'll pass on drinking from the big ole jug of Kool-Aid that they continue to serve up for public consumption.

Statements like this fit the category of "ludicrous comparisons", a technique of debate designed to ignore the complete context of the conversation suggesting a similarity of outcomes which naturally no one wants to happen. To compare the system of justice and corrections in this country to the selection of talented sports figures for consideration to enshrinement into a purist Hall of Fame is ludicrous. Your first supposition is also faulty.

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So the better way to go is to IGNORE those who were caught and pronounce everyone clean??

The better way to go.....is to acknowledge what everyone is and pronounce everyone flawed including those who are making the nominations and elections. Understanding that.....electing the most talented baseball players regardless of their "integrity" and avoiding the temptation of making it a popularity contest or character litmus test, which by the way is a recent turn of events and not consistent with elections down through the years; that this is the honorable way to go.

Ironically, the worst and most egregious deletion from the Hall of Fame has nothing to do with steroids but may break down the wall that threatens to keep them out. Pete Rose, "Charlie Hustle", arguably the greatest baseball player ever is kept from the Hall of Fame by a simple addiction to gambling. Has anyone been to a casino lately? It had nothing to do with his performance. There is no evidence he ever bet on baseball while a player. This Commissioner may but some Commissioner will remove the ban and a Veterans Committee will eventually enshrine Rose even if posthumously. When that happens everyone will see what scapegoats the steroid era players were and the walls will come tumbling down. There are already a significant amount of writers willing to vote for guys who used before there were punishments in place. Buster Olney for one.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Players now claim ADHD because Adderal is a legal PED. Either delete the stats of those caught with illegal PEDs or let the players in the Hall. Players used to crank up with amphetamines in the 50's to 70's. What's the difference?

Just curious, does anyone avoid movies where actresses enhance their breasts?

only if there's a cover-up.

It is difficult to decide what criteria to use for Hall of Fame admission once you expand the considerations beyond performance on the field. I heard an ESPN reporter say this morning that while he voted for McGuire and others who used banned substances he could not and would not vote for Manny when the time came. Why? because Manny was stupid and selfish (or something like that). So now we should vote for some folks who used performance enhancers but not others based upon personality traits or intelligence? Seems like a slippery slope. BTW - Chipper Jones is a maybe in my book - unless you consider personality traits and intelligence and then he is a YES.

PA Dino,

I can't agree with you on this one as Pete Rose broke the most known, most warned against rule in baseball of the last 90 years. By making bets as a manager he compromised his team as he probably managed games for that day's results only without any thinking of the results longterm to his pitching staff or player's rest and such. This was much more serious than you make it sound. If he is put in the Hall after his death well that might be acceptable. But really, Pete Rose arguably the greatest player of all time?--you are joking right? He wasn't even the greatest player of his era or on his own team.

Chipper Jones is not a hall of famer in my book. A very good player but not an all-time great.

As for the HOF, I'd boot out 90% who are in there because when Bill Mazeroski and PeeWee Reese are on the same level as Babe Ruth, then the induction process is a joke.

Zomby,

I don't think the Hall is meant to imply that everyone in there is the same level as Babe Ruth. If they went by that criteria, there would be a one man Hall of Fame (Ruth). There are different levels of greatness. However I do agree some guys who are in should not be, but Reese is not one of the first guys that I would kick out. Quite truthfully, he was a better player than Rizzuto his Yankee counterpart. Outside of one MVP year by Phil, Reese was the superior player.