Chiropractor ?

Witch doctors. I apologize in advance. 

There are some chiropractors that are better than orthos.  Understand that they use a natural approach to wellness. Its not all about cracking the back. 

Do your homework.

My opinion of chiropractors, based just on my unscientific muddling through life is similar to my opinion of massage therapists. 

 

--I haven't seen anything resembling a sufficiently tested falsifiable hypothesis to substantiate their efficacy.

 

--A fair amount of what they say and do seems more like salesmanship and theatricality than strictly clinical treatment. (E.g., how does a massage therapist know her kneading purges only toxins and not stuff that belongs in the tissues she works?)

 

--However, what they do does provide some relief to some people with some conditions in some circumstances. 

 

--And there probably are different levels of skill among practitioners.

 

If your back hurts bad enough long enough, you'll try anything that might help. If it helps you, rejoice.  If it doesn't, keep looking. 

 

My wife believes occasional chiropractic treatment does help neck issues that have bothered her since a car accident in her teens.  I have had mixed results--sometimes it seemed to help; sometimes not.

 

 

All I can offer is my personal experience on the matter.  I have never been treated by a "chiropractor" but I have been successfully treated by a Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) for back issues.using electric muscle stimulation that loosened the back & other muscles. The DO would then realign my back and hips after the muscles were loosened.  He treats a number of local college and pro sports teams in the area, and I've had positive results with him when needed. 

 

I haven't been seeing my DO much lately as I'm doing specific daily PT exercises and band work (Jaeger bands) on my own that strengthens and helps my back, arm, shoulders and rotator cuff.  I play a lot of tennis and beat on my body pretty good into my 50s.  I do believe 100% in massage therapy, and I wish I could do it more.  It is all about flexibility (at my age) to reduce injury.  There is no question in my mind that massage therapy helps the body recover from soreness, overuse, etc.   Bottom line is it works for me.

 

Good luck!

I used a chiropractor years ago.  They have their place, IMO.  

 

But what they charge for adjusting your back is too high and the health claims are a bit outlandish.  

 

To be labeled as a doctor is a bit arrogant. 

Chiropractic manipulation of the neck is a known risk factor for vertebral artery dissection.  This is a tearing of the artery which causes a stroke.  I've seen it several times.  Not worth the risk.  Ask any neurologist or neurosurgeon, who are actual doctors, if they would recommend it.

One of the best sports medicine doctors around here is a chiropractor.  Mostly every HS in this area sends their athletes to him for slight injuries for evaluation.  He has a gym where therapy is done to strengthen parts that need to be strenghten when he sees an issue. IMO I believe that they serve their purpose.  So do acupuncturists which are now covered by many insurance companies as is massage therapy. If a realy good chiro suspects something from the xray he may prescribes mri when necessary and an orthopaedic doc if surgery is in question. A chiropractor does not have to do through the protocol as most insurance companies make regular mds.
You hurt your back and the ortho prescribes pain meds and expensive therapy. You go to the chiropractor and he uses manipulation, heat and ultrasound if necessary as well as natural products to reduce pain and massage therapy.
I know lots of people hooked on pain medications due to back issues and are addicted.
Some people have bad experiences there are bad doctors everywhere..all kinds.  Don't knock it until you try it. Like any doctor do your research.
JMO

Need an adjustment to align your spine?  Check your shoes if the heals are worn unevenly inner or outer sides you have an issue!

 

 

 

Boone, that is pretty strong stuff.  I am not a chiro, but I REALLY doubt you have seen this condition "several times".  Please clarify or add some solid information.  What is it that you do for a living?  Thanks! 

I could tell some interesting stories about chiropractors. I've dealt with some good ones and I've dealt with some bad ones. They are not the first person we'd refer our kids to. Although we do have one locally who is trained in the Selective Functional Movement Assessment (SFMA) which is a series of movement tests. We have another group locally who specialize in soft-tissue injury rehab. These two groups are places we would refer to if our kids' parents wanted to go there. 

 

We've had others who tell an assortment of interesting stories. One kid had a minor strain. Chiropractor held the kid out of football practice up until game day, twice. Somehow he was always "healed" in time for the game. Hint: He didn't play... Had another one this year who complained of an AC sprain. Complained of pain point-specific on the front of the shoulder. Kid saw a chiropractor and came back with a note that said "spinal pain." 

You can REALLY doubt it all you want.  I work in a high volume Cardiac Cath/interventional Neurology lab in a large metropolitan city.  We not only serve the people of the city I live in but as a receiving hospital for transfers for a large area and have seen it "several times." Again, ask a neurologist, a neurosurgeon or an interventional neurologist their views on chiropractic manipulation.  

With all due respect, there is quite a bit of misinformation about chiropractic in this thread, and among the general public, as well.  I understand folks will comment based on their own experiences, but I am going to shed some light on the subject.

 

First of all, I do not blame or condemn anyone for their ignorance about chiropractic and chiropractors.  The profession has a serious PR problem, as no two organizations within the profession can even agree as to what chiropractic is/does.  This is pretty evident when you visit different chiropractic offices; you will find many different treatment methods, techniques, and modalities being used from doctor to doctor.  There is no standard of care - basically, when a chiropractor is given a license, he/she is pretty much permitted to utilize whatever treatment he/she wishes to perform.  This lack of standard operating procedure creates a serious perception problem from a patient standpoint - what the individual patient experiences in his/her chiropractor's office is what becomes the "definition of chiropractic" to that patient, and your opinion of chiropractic in general is based upon the results you achieved (or did not achieve) in that office.

 

Secondly, Doctors of Chiropractic are actually doctors - they just aren't M.D.'s, they are D.C.'s; just as physical therapists are now DPT's (Doctors of Physical Therapy).  Chiropractors have just as much schooling as medical doctors (Chiropractors have a 4 year undergraduate degree, then they go to a 4 year chiropractic college.)  In fact, it is almost the identical curriculum.  There are a few differences, of course: 1)   The body is the body and chiropractors and medical doctors each study the same anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, etc.  The courses differ when M.D.'s study treatment methods, i.e. pharmacology/toxicology, the chiropractors instead study their primary method of treatment - manipulative techniques.  2) Chiropractors actually have more hours in x-ray technique/reading.  3) Since chiropractic is considered a "natural" or "holistic" form of healthcare, they get much more training in nutrition and exercise.  4) When it comes to internships and residencies, the M.D.'s have a big advantage here.  M.D.'s will work in hospital settings to get additional training, where almost all chiropractors either open up their own office or work for another chiropractor as an associate right out of school.  5) Medical school is a much more competitive atmosphere; their entrance to school is a more selective process and once in, most students fight to be number one to get the best residencies.  But once out of school, the medical profession is a very organized group that relies on a powerful system (i.e. hospitals, drug companies, specialists, etc) and there a lot of opportunities.  In chiropractic school, it is a much more relaxed atmosphere; most everyone is very helpful and loving, yet when they graduate, they are "dog, eat, dog".  Each doctor is an island, so to speak, all fighting for a small piece of the same pie.  Most chiropractic schools do a very poor job of teaching the business side of practice so doctors of chiropractic need to market/advertise for themselves, and they have to figure out how to run a successful practice (and as you can imagine, many dubious forms of marketing are employed - thus these chiropractors are likened to "used car salesmen" and "ambulance chasers" because of it.)  

 

With regard to what chiropractic can or cannot do in terms of results, this is where things get really sticky.  To put it succinctly, some treatment methods work better than others.  Unfortunately, most of the methods that are taught in the schools are very basic, old school, rudimentary methods that are designed to "unlock" fixated joints.  This ideology is outdated, as its results typically provide temporary relief, at best.  Chiropractic treatment, WHEN DONE PROPERLY, can do much more than that.

 

What it really is, is the study and application of structural mechanics.  It is the understanding of how a body's structure breaks down and how to correct it.  It is like the foundation of a house; when the foundation of a house becomes faulty, there are many unwanted effects, such as, creaking floorboards, windows that won't open smoothly, cracks in the drywall, etc.  You can keep patching up the effects, but if the underlying structural issue isn't addressed, the problems persist.  So, the idea behind chiropractic is to determine how deviated an individual's structure is from normal and then begin the process of correcting it back toward normal (or as close as possible).  If done properly, all kinds of problems/malfunctions get better.

 

Chiropractic is now a much more repeatable, predictable science than what it once was.  Unfortunately, many doctors in the profession don't even know this, as archaic methods are still being taught and utilized.  When performed properly, it can correct most body problems - and quickly.  About 80% of cases will have their presenting symptoms subside or much improved within 1-3 treatments.  Another 10-15% of cases will take a bit longer, maybe 2-3 weeks.  That's not to say it can correct everything; it does not deal with cancers, tumors, infections, fractures, diabetes, or other nutritional deficiencies or metabolic disorders.  But for so many other body problems, there is nothing better than proper chiropractic treatment.  I confidently say this after 25 years of testing and observation in the profession and I would put my care up against any other type of treatment any day, be it drugs, massage, PT, or surgery.  And when it comes to sports injuries, nothing holds a candle to proper chiropractic treatment.

 

If anyone is interested in discussing particulars any further, feel free to ask, either on the board or PM.  I am more than happy to discuss cases, mechanisms of injury, or anything else pertaining to chiropractic. 

Nice post doc!

Still not believing in the "several" or "multiple" times.  I have been working with patients for 25 years, and have not seen it once, or heard of it once.  It probably has happened, as bad things can happen.   On the other end of the spectrum, I have also heard of surgeons having bad outcomes from surgeries, and folks dying on the table. I guess we could ask any Chiro what they think of surgeons, and see what is said.  Do Chiro's have a bad rep at times? Yes.  Are there also good ones?  Yes.  Do some of them make statements that they can't back up?  Yes.  Our medical system, in general, does not like any kind of homeopathy.  Surgery is the answer, when surgeons are involved, as that is what they do.  Injections and Meds are the answer when Pain Management Docs are involved.  Are many issues correctable (orthopedic issues), without surgery?  Yep.  Is surgery sometimes the only answer?  Yep.  I know that is going off thread, but our system is a bit backwards and broke.  Chiropractors (good ones) have their place.  Surgeons have their place.  PT's have their place.  All can be helpful. The way the system works need to be improved. 

Nobody's asking you to buy anything.  Just because you've never heard of a vertebral artery dissection from manipulation  doesn't  mean it doesn't happen.  Maybe you should read the research.  It took me about 30 seconds on Google to find a study published by Stanford that cites 56 cases in a 2 year period just in California alone.
So if you want some guy yanking on your neck and think the results are worth the risks, knock yourself out.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01Qu...ics/chirostroke.html

In 1992, researchers at the Stanford Stroke Center asked 486 California members of the American Academy of Neurology how many patients they had seen during the previous two years who had suffered a stroke within 24 hours of neck manipulation by a chiropractor. The survey was sponsored by the American Heart Association. A total of 177 neurologists reported treating 56 such patients, all of whom were between the ages of 21 and 60. One patient had died, and 48 were left with permanent neurologic deficits such as slurred speech, inability to arrange words properly, and vertigo (dizziness). The usual cause of the strokes was thought to be a tear between the inner and outer walls of the vertebral arteries, which caused the arterial walls to balloon and block the flow of blood to the brain. Three of the strokes involved tears of the carotid arteries [3]. In 1991, according to circulation figures from Dynamic Chiropractic, California had about 19% of the chiropractors practicing in the United States, which suggests that about 147 cases of stroke each year were seen by neurologists nationwide. Of course, additional cases could have been seen by other doctors who did not respond to the survey.

A 1993 review concluded that potential complications and unknown benefits indicate that children should not undergo neck manipulation [4].

Not trying to be difficult, and appreciate the effort, but lets see some recent research.  I would never attempt to site research from so far back, when asked to present my case.  I use research all the time, but in my circles, the research has to have been done within the last five years.  I would not consider this research relevant, any longer, due to it's age alone.  Without knowing more, who is to say how these studies were done?  You like to use the big words of "vertebral artery dissection", yet your outdated research discusses "stroke after manipulation".   Not even close to being the same thing.  Again, show me some research on what you are hypothesizing (vertebral artery dissection).  Love a lively discussion.  Lots of politics in the medical field.  Lots of turf wars.  Yes, I do go to a Chiro.  He does a nice job.  I go rarely, and only as needed.  Certain things that I just can't fix on my own. 

That was the first result on Google.  I am sitting next to an interventional neurologist right now who says he has personally treated "at least 15". And he is about 3 years out of his fellowship.  You can do your own research.  Go to pubmed.gov and search for chiropractic stroke.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/...=chiropractic+stroke
Here, I did it for you. Read any of the 143 results, some published as recently as this year.  Or if you like anecdotal stories, browse on over to chiropracticstoke.com

I wouldn't put much credence into Quackwatch or believe everything Dr. Barrett says; he has been known to be extremely inaccurate and biased.  That's not to say that cervical manipulation is not risky.  The old-school, "traditional" manipulations involve a lateral flexion then rotational movement, which CAN cause injury.  Again, this goes back to my original post regarding treatment methodology.  Cervical manipulation is rarely necessary (except for perhaps the 7th cervical vertebrae), and it should NOT be performed with a rotational maneuver.  When done PROPERLY and when NECESSARY, there is NO risk with chiropractic treatment. I am 100% opposed to neck-twisting, cranking, forceful movements - yet, keep in mind, literally thousands of these types of maneuvers are being performed every day with little to no immediate injury.  But the risks are real; at best, it provides temporary relief, at worst, it can have debilitating effects, as was noted in the previous post. 

Great post, structure doc. You are so right about everyone's experiences being different and that it seems there are so many different modalities within the practice that are not standardized. 

 

I have had friends and relatives who were chiropractors and based on what I knew about their practices I would never ever go to one for treatment. When my son hurt his back playing, we tried everything to get him better except for chiropractic. Finally after his coach harassed me enough and at my mother's urging, I took him to the chiropractor Coach recommended. After 3 months of pain, he was pain free after one visit. No lie. My husband and daughter also now go when they feel the need to.

 

He is fantastic with his hands, but my only complaint is that he doesn't get involved in much more than that. I was disappointed when he didn't seem to be interested in a joint condition that my daughter has, or a condition she has with her wrist. If we had a doctor like the one that TPM has, I'm pretty sure someone in my family would be there several times each week!

 

 

Lots of great info here and lines are clearly drawn between some posters.  Out of curiosity, have any posters read the book or seen the documentary "Doctored"?  Pretty interesting stuff.

 

FWIW, GHHS jr has been to chiro's and osteo's and ortho's (all for preventative maintenance).  Parents and players should research anybody, no matter what their profession, and make informed decisions concerning the treatment of athletes.

Since we are talking on a baseball forum, I offer this.  Pretty powerful stuff, and I could provide more of the same.  Very recent research and commentary.  Note the female speaking is a renowned neurosurgeon. 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/...vestigation/2435009/

 

I am not hating on any professional, just the fact that the system is a little broke. 

 

Thanks!

Interesting article, just having a little trouble making the connection to the discussion at hand.

I have no dog in this hunt, but if somebody from the medical community (I understand that you're not an MD but you're from that world and used an MD to back up your point) says that seeing a Chiro could cause a debilitating injury, it's fair for somebody from the Chiro community to point at that seeing an MD can also be harmful to your health.  Last I heard medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA.

I am not a Chiropractor.  Rather a 25 year, well credentialed, Private Practice PT, who often gets frustrated with our broken medical system.  JCG, my point exactly.

Find a Chiropractor that is sports oriented.  Back in the powerlifting days, I found a Chiropractor that used to travel with the US Olympic team.  He explained that they could perform best if aligned properly.  Only adjusted or treated if necessary, after a physical inspection.  He did the same with me.  My previous Chiropractor adjusted me on both sides, regardless of where my pain was.  The Olympic guy would go through an examination and determine if I needed any adjustment that day.  Some days I did, some days I did not.  He did not charge me for the inspection if I did not need adjustments or any treatments.  I can tell you that I could squat significantly more weight more easily while actively seeing the sports minded Chiropractor.

My Dad was a chiropractor.  Two of my brothers and a niece are chiro's.  Dad started as a Navy MD in WW2.  His Navy journal (which we six kids continue to share among ourselves, constantly shipping it back and forth across the country) is a remarkable story of a young teen growing up in extraordinary circumstances, including much dealing with serious injury, illness and death.

 

Growing up in a rust belt town, it seemed that half the time I would have the occasion to introduce myself to an adult, I would hear about what a miracle-worker and life-saver my Dad was, first hand from the recipients of his chiropractic care.  He came home many times with home-made bread or jam or a fruitcake (hate those) or fresh meat that he accepted as payment in place of cash.  Dad was happy to help whoever needed.  His appointments were booked every half hour or forty-five minutes(not five or ten minutes) and often he still fell way behind.  He was called countless times late at night or on weekends and would always tend to the emergency.  He raised six active kids, rarely a hospital visit - he adjusted, stitched, splinted, calmed fevers, cleaned open wounds, tended to broken hearts and other serious emotional trauma.  He wrote two books (which I could never read but featured my test-dummy partially-bare butt on display for adjustment techniques) that I believe are still used as text in some school environments.

 

My two brothers and niece are still forming their legacy but were all certainly inspired toward the profession by my dad.  They carry the spirit of his values and are driven by the same "serve others" mantra.  The majority of other folks I've met who decided to enter that same career path seem to do so for similar reasons.  I can't help but to be disgusted by those making blanket negative comments toward the chiropractic profession. 

 

I've since moved across the country and really miss the family perks and consistent feeling of good health.  I have tried to find good chiropractic help for myself and my own family and it is certainly hit and miss.  There are some very good ones.  There are also those who, perhaps, have given way to the pressures of dealing with that "broken system" and those who's priorities have shifted while trying to strike that balance between providing service, providing for the family and running a profitable business.

 

That was never an issue with dad.  This past Thursday would have been his 90th.  Happy Birthday Dad! 

BTW, Fan, my comments about blanket statements against chiropractors were certainly not aimed at you and I sympathize with your situation.  In fact, I think only one here made a statement purely against and I suspect that was somewhat toungue-in-cheek.

Great post, cabbagedad!  I love to hear the stories of the old-timers.  You hit the nail on the head with regard to "serving others" and shifting priorities.  Chiropractic is one of the most under-appreciated, misunderstood, and under-valued services - I love what I do and if there were no such thing as money, I would still do what I do!  It is so satisfying to help people who were not otherwise being helped with other methods!

There are so many other things that chiropractors do than just crack your back, the practice has certainly changed over the years and once again, I will always recommend chiropractic (especially one involved with sports injuries) but after there has been a determination that there is no issue that needs medical attention from a surgeon. I also recommend accupunture. All of these are alternatives WITHOUT drugs, which I prefer.

Recently the same chiropractor recommended son to see a back surgeon due to an MRI that was taken (by orders of him), more than likely for an evaluation for an epidural that he does not do. He would not treat him until he saw the ortho guy.

 

 

 

 

"A CrossFitter, a Vegan, and a Chiropractor walked into a bar. How did I know? They told me." 

 

Seriously, this is one thing that concerns me the most about the chiropractic profession. As a medical professional myself, there is only one group that I hear from on a regular basis. They always want to be involved in some way in our Sports Medicine department. I have one who emailed me again today. This is at least the 4th time he's emailed me this school year. 

I realize chiro's can be bad about advertising and marketing, and some really bad.  However, have you asked the gentleman what it is that he thinks he can provide, or how he wants to help?  All intentions may be good.  Free help is typically good help, as long as everyone is on the same page. 

Bad at advertising and marketing?!?!?  Isn't that what a majority of their "medical school" training is about?

What exactly do you mean by this?