Choosing a college. Which weighs more, the school or the coach?

For me the school matters more

There's more to the equation. Is the kid going to college with the primary expectation to become a pro baseball player or is education first? If it's the former, the coaching staff makes a difference. If it's the latter it's all about the school. I would understand a kid not wanting to play for a perennial doormat even if it's a great education. From a recruiting standpoint, look at the longterm history of the college's commitment to the program regardless of who's coaching.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Should a student/athlete choose his college merely based on the school not the coach?

Ok Don'tman:

You bring up something that, as Tom Seaver would say, the appetizer, and not the real meal.

I believe another concern of the NCAA is it's the student-athlete that is penalized by being tied to the Head Coach vs the School, should the Head Coach leave the program. Today, it's a one year hiatus from baseball, should the student-athlete decide to move on.

Another observation is if the student-athlete gets injured or run into academic issues, and becomes a student, would the college fit?


For 17/18U, many lean toward the coach that recruited him, and with that said, mature the hard way.

It is not an either or situation. It all matters.

Choosing a school/baseball program really goes hand in hand for the serious player.

I would think that a player would make a list of "what I need" and "what I want"...like this...

Type of school (large, small, public, private, religious, not religious) identify the type of school the player wants to attend.

Region of school

Cost of school

Type of program (Omaha contender, immediate play opportunities)

A resonable expectation to succeed in the classroom. (3.2 hs kind of kid at CAL Berkley... not an amazing fit...you might want to try but it will be a large bite to chew)

Rapport with coaching staff

Can the HC/program take the player to the next level if they desire to get there?

I know I am missing some important things here but all of the above things can include a school/coach into your college choice and any of the above could exclude a coach/program.

I would not think it is a good idea to send a player into a program where the player did not have a good rapport with the HC and staff.

I also would not send my kid to a school where I did not have a reasonable expectation that my kid could succeed in the classroom.

You need both and you hope for the best.

To answer your question though, a coaching change would horrify me as a parent of a kid in college baseball... but they happen and just like in life you have to get along with every boss you ever have or you move on.

The NCAA penalty is harsh for the player but the alternative is that a school could never make a change out of fear that the whole team would disband.

And, from the school's perspective the player is there to go to school. It is the player who often has the ulterior motive for being in school.

27 Years after my last game, our conversations among players are rarely about the coach, so it must not matter much IMHO.

From personal experience, I know that coaches change, the school will not change (at least not much) in your son's tenure there. That says it all.

That being said, it's a false choice really. There are a lot of fish in the sea. Focus in on a place that has both to your liking. Don't get into "either/or".

The school choice is more important as coaches tend to come and go.

The reason this is so hard for most is because it shouldn't be about one or the other and many make it that way. The decision should incorporate many different things.
I won't deny son leaned very heavily on one school because of the pitching coach. He had only two schools he was seriously interested in, his choice was made after his official visits, we told him to take the coaches out of the equation. He actually liked his future teammates at one school better than the other, the campus, small class sizes and location. That was the tie beaker for him and very important.
Official visits serve a purpose, JMO.

Junior will pick a school where he can play baseball as that's his goal. Amongst (not really a word is it?) his choics though, he should choose a place he'd be happy with if he wasn't playing baseball!

This topic has been kicked around numerous times over the years on here. It's one that never grows old or boring since there is always good things for new players and/or parents to hear.

It never fails that depending on what "level" you are on...i.e. junior/senior in HS, college freshman, JUCO player, etc...what One wants is not always what they get or had hoped to get. Sometimes it is.

I can be the Poster child of the player who in his freshman year had wished that he enjoyed the College if there was no baseball. Miserable doesn't come close to how he was by semester's end. (Not to mention the stress his Dad and Mom faced). It's never easy writing about this but hopefully someone will learn that when they hear be sure your son chooses a school that he'd like to attend if baseball wasn't in the equation. Take it to heart. It's gut wrenching to watch your son go through this growing pain...on many levels. (It ended well in that he played JUCO ball in the spring.)

A player and parent never knows the "unseens" when committing to a school. Sometimes the assistant coach(s) can be inmature and troublesome, the upperclassmen can be the same, college level classes turn out to be more than the player had expected, being away from home is more overwhelming that expected, etc etc etc. These (and more) DO play into effect. Maybe only one if you're lucky or more than one. They'll have competition on the field like they've never had before but I'm a big proponent of competition. It's good for everyone. Some kids will dig in and fight while others will want to transfer out or quit.

Some kids with abundance of talent will have many recruiting choices while other above-average HS kids will have to seek out places to play ball. Either way, they'll both face stiff competition their freshman year. We've all heard it before...be sure your son can accept riding the pine that first year. Not every kid can play D1 ball and those who sign with the D1's find out they wished they would've signed at another level. Whatever level your son plays on if his goal is to play MLB baseball, he will be found if he has the talent and drive.

Injuries happen ALL the time...off season and in. Will he enjoy his classes, activities, schoolmates, etc. if he is out for a duration? Don't think it couldn't happen to your son...it can. Just another thing to think about in this equation of "choosing a place he's be happy with if he wasn't playing baseball".

Very good advice.

Great post YGD , thanks for careing enough about other people to put that out there. Those kinds of posts is just one reason this site is so special.

I have never heard a kid say "I don't like the coaches but this is where I want to go to school." Have any of you? I am talking about a kid that has worked his butt off to get to play college baseball , has dreamed of playing college baseball , and has finally reached the point where he is ready to make a decision on where you wants to go to school. Have you ever heard a baseball players say "I don't like the coaches but this is where I want to go to school."

I never have and I dont expect I ever will. What makes a coach a great recruiter? He is a likeable person. He is the type of person that when your son , when you , meet them you feel good about them. You like them. They make you feel comfortable with your decision. They are "down to earth" "seem like a really nice person" etc etc etc. The fact is baseball players , football players , basketball players , etc etc - choose the coach , the coaches , many times. Alot of programs have great academics , nice facilities , great conference , etc etc. The fact is its the guy your talking to that sells it or does not sell it. When everything is basically a push it comes down to the person you are talking to face to face. If that comes down to a push then the other things come into play.

You can say "Never choose a program for the coach or coaches because they can move on." Lets be honest about it no matter how good the school is if your son does not like the coach he is not going to want to go to that school. But if you are aware of a kid that said "I dont like the coach but I want to go to that school." And he did go to that school feel free to say so.

I love the site as my 6000+ posts atest and I love what Coach May and YounggunsDad have posted.

YGD - there will always be risk in life. Until a young man makes that choice, I believe none of us will truly know. Competition is what is completely different about the college level than high school imho. In high school, the head coach can only recruit what is walking down the hall. In college, every coach recruits multiple guys at each position and tells each one of them they have a chance for a starting position. This process is often highly painful for all involved including players and parents. If a player can claw and scratch his way into the lineup however, it indeed can be the best of times. I believe that mental toughness is what most coaches teach at the college level. They ain't out to be your friend when you walk on campus. Most of them will let the competition decide. As parents, we need to encourage a long term view. A kid can sit for three years in college waiting for their turn. When they get it, some of these end up turning heads for the next level as well.

Coach May - I have wondered the same things as you. I don't know anyone personally but the following hypothetical seems reasonable to me. I can imagine that some young men out there view college baseball as their final athletic achievement. Maybe some have always wanted to achieve an academic goal first like pre-med or a military academy while still getting to play baseball. Maybe some of these if accepted into their "dream" academic school will accept whatever coach is there at the time regardless if they personally like that coach.

Thanks CD and your correct. I can see that scenario now that you put it out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Thanks CD and your correct. I can see that scenario now that you put it out there.

On the other hand, I believe that 99.99% of the time, the coach is a huge factor in the decision if not the ultimate factor in many cases. I was basically in full agreement with your post Coach May! I also like the other posts here that says all things need to be considered.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Junior will pick a school where he can play baseball as that's his goal. Amongst (not really a word is it?) his choics though, he should choose a place he'd be happy with if he wasn't playing baseball!

Yes, "amongst" is a word. Its meaning is identical to "among", but is the preferred word in literary circles when it precedes a word that begins with a vowel or soft H sound, such as in your example.

quote:

feel free to say so.

CM I have to say so. My son loved his college and the city.
I think saying he didn't like the coaches might be a little strong because he just grinned and bared what was going on. He rarely said anything negative but his teammates and other parents sure did.

Bobble how did he feel about them when he was being recruited by them? Did he like them? Or did he feel about the same as he did at other schools?

I know some go in likeing the coaches and once on campus and in the program those feelings can change. I just find it hard to believe that a kid would "not like" the coaches recruiting them and still attend that school. Unless the circumstances CD talked about were part of the equation.

He wasn't recruited by them. We recruited the school based on location and 4-5 players that went there. The coach they had was fired and the new guy seemed nice and was good to my son. It wasn't about nice or things like playing time, it was about BB knowledge and team morale.

This site often refers to a good "fit" in regard to school selection. IMO, every player has a different needs, requirements, and goals. I know when my son picked his school it came down to weighing the tangibles and intangibles in order to find a "good PLACE"

Program- This would include the level of play, program history, and team fit
Location- Some want to stay close to home, some want to spread their wings.
Academics- Speaks for itself
Coach- 1st impressions are great, he's done the research on Jr, do the same with him
Evironment- An accumulation of all things that will surround Jr's school life incl costs.

We felt that all things needed to be considered and weighted. Putting choices side by side is an interesting way to do a visual school comparison thus down playing emotion. When all was said not one school stuck out, the "dream" school had faults, the State school had issues, highest academics schools did not fit, coaches out of the living room were not the same salesman. For some, the recruiting process may seem simple, and it may be, but if options are present, I would suggest a deep look inside that may save future headaches. Make sure the blinders stay in the barn.

Great advice rz1 and what a cool acronym that says it all. This is a great site, wish I had found it earlier.

Good one rz1,

That sum's it up real well.
This acronym need's to be placed in the recruiting forum as a motto.

I believe the School weighed more on my son's decision to attend college.
I would say the coach was somewhere in the middle of his decision.

I personally felt good about the college reputation, as both an academic and a good baseball program historically.
What weighed most with me was the feeling I had, that he would get the help he would need to succeed academically.
Personally thats what weighed the most with me.
I believe my son felt comfortable with that.

The Location and Environment were also a factor.
And I feel the Recruiting cordinator, made him feel comfortable with the decision he was about to make.
He only had one meeting with the head coach, and that was at the time of the offer that was made.
I believe my son's decision was made before that meeting.

So my answer would have to be the College was the reason weighed first.

The choice made has not dissappointed us or him,
Everything I thought about back then ( Academics ) and getting the help he would need has come true.
The Baseball was and has been great.
The only frustrating thing has been the fact that he became injured at the start of his Junior year.
Had operation to remove bone chips and a bone spur in April of 2009.
Was throwing OK at the start of the Fall this year hitting high 80's.
But something wasn't quite right.
So after consulting with the DR. and doing the test's ( MRI ) ect.
Found another bone chip, cracked elbow, torn legiment.
Well guess what.
Tommy John Surjery in early November.
So after missing all of the 2009 and now will miss all of the 2010 season.
He is still on track to Graduate with his Senior class.
So the decision he made was the right one for him.
And the baseball will take care of itself, In Time.

EH

rz1 that was brilliant!

Good post Coach May, but I beleieve that there are many that have it set in their mind they are going to a particular school, despite the coaching staff, but, IMO, it is most imperative that a recruit try to get to know the coaching staff before they make a decision.

rz1 - what a great post! I plan to use this acronym for son #2 if he wants to play past HS. Son #1 is done with recruiting (praise the lord!). Essentially, you captured exactly what our thought processes were in evaluating different schools/programs/coaches. In terms of coaches, I think it is real important to not only look at the coach but his entire staff, how long they've been there, how old are they, where did they go to school. That can be a great piece of information in determining coaching stability and how they want to develop the program.

If you pick the college for the education and the best fit over all, then a coach leaving won't be an issue. As for baseball, the player should focus on his game and control what he has control over. If he can't do that, then he'll have problems. This is the time where they have to grow up and act like adults.

Wow, we have covered this topic many times in past years, but here we are with new insights and excellent advice. RZ, what an on-target acronym, PLACE.

To add two cents based on my son's college experience:

As others have said, your son makes a decision based on numerous factors (including parental input), and then you and he both know that anything can happen.

My son chose his college mostly for the baseball
* PROGRAM (RZ's P), a team that had some success and he was told he could probably play for, then
* LOCATION (still following RZ's PLACE list), away from home but within driving distance,
* ACADEMICS (his HS grades and ACT scores were within range and he thought he could earn a degree there),
* COACH - This was a big consideration for him, a very good fit, but turned out to be the surprise, and
* ENVIRONMENT - The feel of the campus was good, he liked the future teammates he met, and some intangible "fit" factors.

Guess what?

COACHES LEAVE!

When son was choosing his college, we talked about the fact that the head coach was the biggest factor in his decision, and the fact that coaches leave. But this coach was very connected in the area (going back a generation), and we agreed this was very, very unlikely to change.

The head coach left the team the night before their first game of my son's freshman year, due to an unexpected personal life event.

My son went from being the #1 prospect in this HC's plans, to just another guy trying to figure out how to get innings under the new coach, and having a very small margin for making any mistakes on the field. College baseball was still a rewarding experience for him, though. Just a bit bumpier ride than expected.

Coaches do leave! The school generally stays about the same, though.


Julie

We've done this twice. My son would not be happy at a college if he couldn't play baseball. He didn't realize this the first time around and ended up transferring to a JC. When evaluating his options at the JC, the school location and program prestige was no longer an issue. The second time around, his requirements were:

-Good league
-Opportunity to play everyday
-Trustworthy straight talking coach

If your kid is a good student, academics will take care of themselves no matter where they go, as a degree is only worth what the student puts into it. Obviously, some kids aren't great students and my need a coach just as interested in seeing them graduate as play.

From a baseball perspective I had an interesting conversation with a major conference parent last spring. The son plays for State. I asked if there was interest from the U (better program). The parent said yes. He said the difference is the U was interested. State loved him.

quote:

MN-Mom quote:
Coaches do leave! The school generally stays about the same, though.

When all was said and my son chose his school I would say that the environment was the factor that tipped the scale. All program options were "acceptable", Location was a non-factor, all academic options were "acceptable", and he could work with any of the coaches. The contributing factor was the overall environment which encompassed not only the interactions of the previous mentioned issues, but also his perception of the "bubble quality of college life" socially, academically, and athletically.

Moving an 18 yr old from "lily white liberalville" of Madison WI to the heart of downtown Chicago was to say the least a "mothers nightmare", and Dad looked at it as "you got balls" because this is an "ultimate challenge".

When the good "PLACE" acronym was developed over a couple of vegetable laden Bloody Mary's during a blizzard, I looked back at advice given on this site over the years and our families experience. In hindsite "Environment", played a part, but, times have change and that part may have grown in significance. In 2004 if things didn't work out my son could go somewhere else the next year, now, the xfer rules are much more prohibitive.

Today, I think you have to jump out of the box and ask your son "Will you be able to ADAPT to a major change in that ENVIRONMENT?". Then explain that the NCAA has somewhat tied your hands in regard to a fresh start and unless you are able to ADAPT, both the baseball and academic portions of your life will be disrupted for a time if issues arise.

Parents and athletes always look at the "WHAT" in the recruiting process, my suggestion is once a school selection is at the edge of commitment, you go back in the process and ask the kid "WHAT IF"

you are red shirted
you don't perform well
you are over your head athletically
you are over your head academically
you have issues with the coach
you don't start, or see limited time
the coach leaves
injury forces a suspension or end to baseball
...and the list goes on

Follow that up with....
Are you going to be able to develop workable solutions that still satisfies your long term goals?
Do you understand these are REAL potential issues?
Is this the right choice for you?

Some may call it "dream crashing", some may call it tough love, I would prefer to call it one of the last requirements of successful parenting. We are all so proud of our boys that sometimes we forget that at some point they will fail to some degree, and we may not be there to pick up the pieces.

Remind your son to be preparded that he may have to adapt to changes within his environment.

Coaches typically weigh about 200 lbs. Schools usually weigh a lot more than that.

I certainly agree with a lot of what is said here. I wanted to comment on rz1's post.

IMO you have to be careful with the "what if" approach. Do it, but with some reserve. I believe you could push a decision the "wrong" way. By this I mean that I felt that my son was already overwhelmed facing a major decision. We wanted the choice to be his decision and there was more than one offer for him to consider. He was bouncing back between two schools and when he told us he made up his mind, I did not try to place anymore questions. He was confident he could do it.

My son already thought he was in over his head academically. I believe the average ACT in his freshman class was around 30. I am sure that had I pushed or questioned his ability to succeed he would have bailed on the school he is at now, and doing very well I might add.

I always tried to challenge him in every aspect of life and he always lived up to the challenge. The what if analysis is a good part of the process, but don't let that part be an escape route to something he may perceive as an easier route to the same goal.

RZ1

I went thru the same thing to varying degrees

My #1 son stayed relatively close to home--that kept my ex happy

My last guy went 2000 miles away to the middle of the desert in Las Cruces New Mexico---his reason was simple--they want me and I know I can play D-I---if it does not happen I can come home because I have a D-II scholarship waiting here----as it happened they changed coaches in his junior year and he found that he would lose to many credits by transferring even though he had a scholarship waiting at a D-i back here at a school who played them out in Las Cruces during a spring break series. He remained and stuck it out with the new coach who he did not see eye to eye with. Being that far away didn't make my ex too happy but he was extremely happy there and hardly ever came home except for a few days during the Xmas holidays

My step son went to North Carolina for college at a D-III program at my behest though he returned up north to play D-I.

Every kid sees things differently and as long as they are happy where they land that is all that matters to me.

Although this comes up often here, great stuff in this topic, I like that acronym.

When coaches began calling son, he sat down and did some serious investigating, not so much about the bb programs as they were all considerations and the all of their coaching staffs had good reputations, but rather other important stuff for his consideration as a 17-18 year old, geography, student population, other sports played and their records, class sizes, courses offered, etc, just to name a few, someone else's list may be different, but it helped to eliminate some schools, only 2 being final considerations then he told them he was ready to make his visits. This made it a little easier.

quote:

AL MA 08 quote:
I wanted to comment on rz1's post.

IMO you have to be careful with the "what if" approach. Do it, but with some reserve. I believe you could push a decision the "wrong" way.

Great point!

However, sometimes a reality check is not a pretty thing on the surface, and every parent will have a different approach and result. I wrote the post from the "pointed end". Not only is this the boys biggest decision in his life to date, but it will probably be one of the biggest withdrawals from Mom-n-dads pocket and with a family decision that involves cash, brutal honesty always came into play in my house. Besides, I always enjoyed to see the the kids knees shake a bit when a tough decision had to be made, and how he defended that decision .

Julie,
May I suggest that both of rz1's posts, "PLACE, & his follow up post", be placed in the "RECRUITING ARTICLES" or "Recruiting Tips" portions of the main site.
This is timely & succinct information for parents & players looking for tips on the process.

rz1,

Make it golden!

RZ...you done went and hit the big time!

May I have your autograph please sir?

How many look into the baseball field and it's dimensions. For example; if I am a pitcher do I want to go to a place that is a launching pad. If I am a power hitting right hander do I want to go to a place where the wind blows in from left field? I am curious as to what people think about this.

When I played in College and went to the Jayhawk summer league I played with a few kids who had big numbers at their school and were eventually drafted. If they played at the field I played at their numbers would have been cut in half. I always wondered how that would have changed things. Now that my son is starting to look at schools it is something we have talked about.

warning track,
Your son may have not have that choice.

I don't think a player should think about that when looking at schools, but rather where can he can go where he will be most challenged, even if that means the field is a launching pad.