Dominik you are wrong because WS pitchers have a say in which uniforms they prefer to wear.
So its not that simple. If thats the case, stick with plan.
The surest way to get for a professional athlete to get run out of the league is to cost the organization profits...drugs, no problem we get you help, PED's see you in a month, beat your wife, lets hope it was in private so nobody finds out...You can get fat, you can lose interest, you can drink to much - typically they will show the door quietly with class.
If you mess with the bottom line and you have a problem. These throw back uni's have been deemed to be profitable and they are going to be worn until they are deemed to be not profitable...I don't believe any one player, even Trout or Harper could stop it, certainly Chris Sale!!
This is far beyond player management relations, the player, any or all players will lose on this one if it is deemed important to the bottom line by the organizations.
TPM posted:Dominik you are wrong because WS pitchers have a say in which uniforms they prefer to wear.
So its not that simple. If thats the case, stick with plan.
These promotions are scheduled months, if not years, in advance. Nobody can schedule (nor would they) a promotion for the World Series. Apples and oranges. Say you don't like them and move on. Don't destroy property. We need to quit putting athletes above the law.
I'd like to point something out to you in the penal code: Section C, Paragraph 22: "Celebrities are above the law." This case is dismissed.
Teaching Elder posted:I'd like to point something out to you in the penal code: Section C, Paragraph 22: "Celebrities are above the law." This case is dismissed.
LOL so true...however this one is not!!
old_school posted:Teaching Elder posted:I'd like to point something out to you in the penal code: Section C, Paragraph 22: "Celebrities are above the law." This case is dismissed.
LOL so true...however this one is not!!
Win 200+ games, a Cy Young and a World Series, Sale is a whacky, nutty super star. If he is just good, career trails off a bit, he is the crazy guy with scissors.
So far, he is the best left handed pitcher in baseball not named Kershaw.
Go44dad posted:old_school posted:Teaching Elder posted:I'd like to point something out to you in the penal code: Section C, Paragraph 22: "Celebrities are above the law." This case is dismissed.
LOL so true...however this one is not!!
Win 200+ games, a Cy Young and a World Series, Sale is a whacky, nutty super star. If he is just good, career trails off a bit, he is the crazy guy with scissors.
So far, he is the best left handed pitcher in baseball not named Kershaw.
and got his ass suspended because you don't mess with the bottom line. there is a fundamental difference.
Just for kicks, here is an old scouting report we did on Chris back when he was a junior on HS. We graded him a 9.
Christopher Sale
LHP 6-5 170 L/L
Christopher Sale is a 2007 LHP with a 6'5'', 170 lb. frame from Lakeland FL, who attends Lakeland HS. He has a very long and loose pitcher's body that is highly projectable. Sale has a balanced delivery and does a good job hiding the ball during his delivery and providing a bit of deception to the hitter. His arm works smooth and loosely out front. Sale's fastball was 83-86 mph and had occasional explosive life at the plate. He maintained his velocity well and threw strikes with an idea. Sale's curveball was 68 mph and his change up 77 mph, both were secondary pitches to his fastball but showed promise. Sale does lots of things well now and he's a very good bet to keep improving as he gets stronger. It wouldn't be surprising to see him take a nice step forward before next spring and see him getting some attention from the scouting community. Sale is also a good student.
He did take a step forward and was drafted (late) out of HS. He went to Florida Gulf Coast and was a first round pick out of college.
Regarding the incident with the uniforms, there is just no excuse. Had that been a much lesser player on the team, they might have been released. I almost always side with the players, but can't do it in this case. Chris Sale could get a lot in return in a trade. At this point, that seems very likely to happen. I hope it ends up being something that will make him happy, both on and off the field. He is really good!
I wonder if he is on his way to costing himself a fortune.
If you were a GM or Team President and front line pitchers being in line for 6/7 year deals worth $150-$200 Million do you bet a decade of your franchises future and your cushy baseball executive job - on this guy in 2020 when he is 31?
If it is me - nope. I got a week to get him out and bring back chunks a 2019 contender if I can get it.
He is owed about $40 Million over the next three years - he is a total bargain in a baseball sense and the White Sox are going nowhere with him. Boston or the Yanks might make sense for him if you can get a couple of big time prospects back for him.
Chris Sale knows that he is good and in demand and that he can leverage this into some statements to promote justice and righteousness. He's got 40 or so million dollars. He is in a perfectly good position to make some statements of conscience. To some, money isn't everything.
I think he realizes that more millions to keep one's mouth shut in the face of injustice is no way to live. I wish more people realized this. The buying of the American soul and conscience is scary.
Teaching Elder posted:Chris Sale knows that he is good and in demand and that he can leverage this into some statements to promote justice and righteousness. He's got 40 or so million dollars. He is in a perfectly good position to make some statements of conscience. To some, money isn't everything.
I think he realizes that more millions to keep one's mouth shut in the face of injustice is no way to live. I wish more people realized this. The buying of the American soul and conscience is scary.
injustice? that's laughable.
You should perhaps take the big picture into perspective then.
Teaching Elder posted:Chris Sale knows that he is good and in demand and that he can leverage this into some statements to promote justice and righteousness. He's got 40 or so million dollars. He is in a perfectly good position to make some statements of conscience. To some, money isn't everything.
I think he realizes that more millions to keep one's mouth shut in the face of injustice is no way to live. I wish more people realized this. The buying of the American soul and conscience is scary.
I assume this is a joke post...well actually I am sure it isn't but I can hope it is!
Nah. Your the joke.
Teaching Elder posted:You should perhaps take the big picture into perspective then.
since this is the internet, ok.
luv baseball posted:I wonder if he is on his way to costing himself a fortune.
If you were a GM or Team President and front line pitchers being in line for 6/7 year deals worth $150-$200 Million do you bet a decade of your franchises future and your cushy baseball executive job - on this guy in 2020 when he is 31?
If it is me - nope. I got a week to get him out and bring back chunks a 2019 contender if I can get it.
He is owed about $40 Million over the next three years - he is a total bargain in a baseball sense and the White Sox are going nowhere with him. Boston or the Yanks might make sense for him if you can get a couple of big time prospects back for him.
I'm thinking of a 30+ pitcher who just signed for 200M. His name is David Over Priced.
it is the brand that matters, it is the reason the NFL hands out fines every Monday morning for uniform violations. they make it expensive enough the players will follow the rules because it just isn't worth cost of not doing it. sure there are a few guys who are persistent for a period of time but they learn eventually.
The owners will crush guys who do this, may be not for the first offense but let it become even a hint of a pattern....the brand and the bottom line will win every time and it won't be a fight.
old_school posted:Teaching Elder posted:Chris Sale knows that he is good and in demand and that he can leverage this into some statements to promote justice and righteousness. He's got 40 or so million dollars. He is in a perfectly good position to make some statements of conscience. To some, money isn't everything.
I think he realizes that more millions to keep one's mouth shut in the face of injustice is no way to live. I wish more people realized this. The buying of the American soul and conscience is scary.
I assume this is a joke post...well actually I am sure it isn't but I can hope it is!
Good for him for speaking out. From what I hear about him its just not for him but for all the guys who cant for fear of retribution. Should be more players like him.
Reality is that no one cares if you cut up uniforms, took PEDs (Bartolo Colon), or involved in a domestic dispute (Chapman), just to name a few in baseball.
So for those of you who think what he did is "okay" let me ask this question..
Kid at Vanderbilt doesn't like the black uniforms with the pinstripes, is it ok for him to destroy them so they can't be worn?
Kid at the high school level wants to wear all white instead of a team-colored jersey, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
Minor league player is told they're wearing Batman uniforms this weekend, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
HS player takes bat and beats gatorade cooler. College player slams glove into back of dugout when removed from game. What happens? What happens when MLB player does the same?
High school, college and even MiLB are far different animals than MLB. They just aren't comparable.
Bulldog 19 posted:So for those of you who think what he did is "okay" let me ask this question..
Kid at Vanderbilt doesn't like the black uniforms with the pinstripes, is it ok for him to destroy them so they can't be worn?
Kid at the high school level wants to wear all white instead of a team-colored jersey, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
Minor league player is told they're wearing Batman uniforms this weekend, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
I agree with him standing up to management, but never once did I say what he did was ok.
I did say I can just imagine the frustration many of these players face. Do you think he is the only player who has destroyed team property? I dont think so!
He's the only one I can recall doing so in such a manner that the equipment staff had to make quite the adjustment on the fly! He's the only one I can recall recently being suspended for his actions?
Bulldog,
PM.
TPM posted:Bulldog 19 posted:So for those of you who think what he did is "okay" let me ask this question..
Kid at Vanderbilt doesn't like the black uniforms with the pinstripes, is it ok for him to destroy them so they can't be worn?
Kid at the high school level wants to wear all white instead of a team-colored jersey, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
Minor league player is told they're wearing Batman uniforms this weekend, ok for him to destroy it so it can't be worn?
I agree with him standing up to management, but never once did I say what he did was ok.
I did say I can just imagine the frustration many of these players face. Do you think he is the only player who has destroyed team property? I dont think so!
I wonder how many water coolers MLB teams go through collectively in a season. Anyone remember what Ortiz did to the phone hanging on the dugout wall after a question strike two and strike three call? The Sox now have a punching bag hanging in the runway between the dugout and locker room.
There is an article written last night found on MLB about exactly what happened in Sales words. Those interested to hear his side of the story, might want to read.
I understand that a true competitor doesnt want anything to get in the way of winning, thats how it should be, thats what you pay guys big bucks to do, and managers should do everything in their power to make this happen. It should be about winning, wait, it should be ALL about winning, nothing less.
Kind of reminds me of a story when son was with AA springfield getting ready to begin their end of year playoff series. Just like when ML teams go into playoff mode and on the road, they decided to fly son home the day before, avoiding a long 14 bus ride and a sleep in your own bed that night. The object is to make the starting pitcher as comfortable as they can, for one thing only, to win the game.
For those that have pitchers, maybe you understand how important the ritual is before the start, if you dont have a pitcher, or never pitched, its really hard to understand.
Footnote: My comments are based on winning in the professional game. For example, pitchers get incentives based upon things such as all star status, awards and games won.
Just sayin.....
As I said I do think that the White sox are a poorly run Organisation over the last decade but I think those decisions about Special Jerseys are not made by the Manager, GM or president but they are made by the Marketing department of the Clubs at least half a year in advance.
Still they shouldn't create Jerseys that hurt the Chance of winning but those Clubs are big Business and those decisions are not some two weeks in advance idea by the GM but well planned Marketing strategies that come with Promotion Actions and creating loads of those Jerseys for sale.
At this time (evening before the game) it is impossible for the Club to stop it without burning loads of Money. Sale really should have known that.
Still I think that a Club should not create Jerseys just for Marketing without considering the Players. the uniforms are work clothes, but work clothes should also be conductive to do your Job well.
of course sale did not do a crime and Clubs are probably using a new uniform every day anyway so it is not really a financial loss for the Club but sale is a grown up man and should have known that Marketing Plays a big role in pro ball and is not some knee jerk reaction.
There is difference in standing up for what you believe in and acting like a petulant child. I think most get the idea that ball players have their little rituals and quirks(particularly pitchers it seems) and while i understand Sale's frustration with having to wear a uniform he didnt feel comfortable in; his actions are inexcusable. And while there have been other examples of players destroying equipment, the level of intemperance that went into his actions was ridiculous.
True story - my daughter ten years ago wanted to be Hermione from Harry Potter. So, I proceeded to get a witch costume hat/broom the whole thing....I thought I did good! Apparently, I did not.....my daughter threw an absolute fit and purposely ripped the costume thinking she wouldnt have to wear it and I would go again get the right one. Needless to say she was wrong. She was 5 years old.
You are comparing this incident with men WHO DO NOT want to get dressed up in costumes to do their jobs and have expressed that to management for several years, to a child.
Let me ask you a question how would you feel if your employer made you get dressed up and you were so uncomfortable you had trouble doing your daily work?
The analogy doesnt fly. Treat these men with respect, not as your property.
Well, if part of my job was to wear a uniform that I was uncomfortable I would 1. suck it up wear it and do what I had to do to keep myself in good standing with my job or 2. I'd look for another job. To me, my employer asking me to wear a uniform that was a bit uncomfortable is not an unreasonable request...its not like it was tutu skirt. what was unreasonable was is reaction. this had nothing to do with respect and more to do with a superstar athlete who got overly upset because his employer didn't value his opinion in the way he thought they should.
His actions were that of a little girl....seriously, what grown man goes to the extreme that he went to?
IF It prevented me from doing my job. No way.
As a fan, I am going to a game to see my team play and win, not wear a costume. If these teams put better products on the field they wouldnt have to do this.
Thats it, I am off to work wearing jeans and a comfy shirt!!!
I could be wrong but I don't think anyone here is saying he shouldn't have been suspended. I don't think anyone is defending his actions. What I think I hear is some saying they understand to a degree "why" he went off. That there is probably more to the story. He is a young guy making a lot of money. Everyone telling him how great he is and how important he is to the teams success. We don't know what some of his team mates were saying. Maybe he felt it was his place to stand up and make a statement? Wrong way to do it? Yeah. Wrong to destroy property? Yeah. Should have been suspended? No doubt.
If I felt like my management cared more about attractions and gimmicks than giving us everything we needed to be successful. If I felt the uniform was going to hinder my ability to be my best. Would I have cut up the uniforms? No. Would I have wanted to? Yeah. Do I know the WHOLE story? No. Regardless he was wrong.
TPM posted:You are comparing this incident with men WHO DO NOT want to get dressed up in costumes to do their jobs and have expressed that to management for several years, to a child.
Let me ask you a question how would you feel if your employer made you get dressed up and you were so uncomfortable you had trouble doing your daily work?
The analogy doesnt fly. Treat these men with respect, not as your property.
This is just not true, these men sign a pay contract to play baseball where the schedule takes them and in the uniforms they are given to wear...they have no rights or opinions about it outside of the CBA which isn't in dispute.
He is wrong, he is acting like a child and it is not excusable. I actually hope he does it again, it certainly will be entertaining...because it will only get worse for him.
Given how crazy this whole story is I'm surprised the White Sox haven't released a statement claiming criminal charges are pending.
Does anyone know how much MLB makes on merchandise? As of December 2015:
In terms of fan apparel, retail sales of MLB merchandise exceeded $3 billion annually according to The Licensing Letter.
There are 30 clubs so that averages $100MM per team which helps explain David Price's contract. It is big money that the players share in so he has absolutely no right to beef about it. MLB players by definition wear costumes to work, they have agreed to it in their work agreement. Wearing whatever they give him is as much a part of his job as showing up. Just ask the Astros of the 70's and 80's.
Sale's Day 2 BS about winning is smoke. How does he help win games by creating turmoil and being suspended? He doesn't. I think he went off for some other reason which may or may not be legit but I suspect it isn't which explains his initial weak explanation that it was uncomfortable which then morphed into his bit about winning when he was roundly hammered and suspended. On top of that sucking Ventura in and tossing him under the bus here is terrible form. It all looks like Sale is flailing around to justify himself.
In my experience that is a indication of someone that either doesn't want the real reason for their actions known or did not correctly anticipate the outcome and was caught unprepared for the results of their actions. I think both are factors here.
I am with players over 95% of the time but of all the things players have to bitch about - the uniform is about 20th or further down on the list.
Sorry, I have to do this.
Does anyone know how much MLB makes on merchandise? As of December 2015:
In terms of fan apparel, retail sales of MLB merchandise exceeded $3 billion annually according to The Licensing Letter.
There is a huge difference between "retail sales" and what a club "makes" off of jersey sales. Profit is Revenue less Expenses.
And the Astros jerseys from the 70's and 80's were beautiful.
But I do agree with the sentiment of your post.
luv baseball posted:Does anyone know how much MLB makes on merchandise? As of December 2015:
In terms of fan apparel, retail sales of MLB merchandise exceeded $3 billion annually according to The Licensing Letter.
There are 30 clubs so that averages $100MM per team which helps explain David Price's contract. It is big money that the players share in so he has absolutely no right to beef about it. MLB players by definition wear costumes to work, they have agreed to it in their work agreement. Wearing whatever they give him is as much a part of his job as showing up. Just ask the Astros of the 70's and 80's.
Sale's Day 2 BS about winning is smoke. How does he help win games by creating turmoil and being suspended? He doesn't. I think he went off for some other reason which may or may not be legit but I suspect it isn't which explains his initial weak explanation that it was uncomfortable which then morphed into his bit about winning when he was roundly hammered and suspended. On top of that sucking Ventura in and tossing him under the bus here is terrible form. It all looks like Sale is flailing around to justify himself.
In my experience that is a indication of someone that either doesn't want the real reason for their actions known or did not correctly anticipate the outcome and was caught unprepared for the results of their actions. I think both are factors here.
I am with players over 95% of the time but of all the things players have to bitch about - the uniform is about 20th or further down on the list.
When fitted for the jerseys in spring the players werent happy. Sale was informed the day before about the uniforms since pitchers get choices. He asked if they could be switched with the 1983 uni. Equipment manager indicated probably be ok. The next day the 70 uni was hanging in the lockers. Sale went to Ventura and had a pretty heated argument. Ventura said no.
Dale gave his reasons in an interview. I agree with his reasons 100%.
Did what he do wrong. Absolutely. Did he have a right to express his opinion, absolutely.
Suggesting pressing charges is laughable. Sale is the CWS star player.
They were more concerned over fans being upset than players. I mean give me a break.
I have believed from the beginning that this has very little to do with uniforms and everything to do with a toxic clubhouse. Time to start over, from GM/front office to players. I would say owner, too, but that's not how it works.
The further this goes on, the more millions Sale has cost himself.
does expressing his opinion mean his actions were justifiable...not even close. Did Sale have a legit complaint.....probably so.
As a fan, I'd be more upset if the star player I purchased tickets for to take the bump wasn't pitching because he didn't want to wear the uniform that the club had for him...its embarrassing
EC posted:does expressing his opinion mean his actions were justifiable...not even close. Did Sale have a legit complaint.....probably so.
As a fan, I'd be more upset if the star player I purchased tickets for to take the bump wasn't pitching because he didn't want to wear the uniform that the club had for him...its embarrassing
I agree ith you that was managements choice, unis over the SP.