Clemens, Petitte, Tejada

2seamer

I asked the young man for a reason as to taking the ADVIL before the game---I did not cut him short--how do you do that on line ?--you type what you want to type--it is not a verbal debate

As for making the waters muddy that only happens in your mind--I do it on bass it lakes but that is real life--- I am not talking legal and illegal because even MLB cannot make that distinction--I am talking performance enhancers not "wraps" or braces

Your bottom line tells me you agree with what I say

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It all comes down to one thing...money.

Doesn't everything from your job, your home, your HMO, the school your kids attend, to the shoes you buy?

Being a project manager I think (hope) I understand the risk/reward aspect of decision making. Sure teams want the reward of the extra 20 hits or 10 bombs a year but if that same player is suspended, his career is cut short, or because he came to his senses that it was dangerous the team is in for a long term contract loss, thus the risk. I don't think that it is up to team management to call a player to the carpet because they suspect he is a user, it is up to the league to police that area which would eliminate the greed factor. It is up to the team to protect their investment and that would be through huge contactual penalties if a player is caught.

The big problem right now is the fact big names are involved when they should be stepping down real hard on the minor leagues and "South of the Boarder" baseball. The enticement to make it to the "bigs" and fulfill the dream is to strong. MLB should have a death grip on testing policies in the minors and invest a ton of money in growth hormone testing and the R&D of future enhancers.

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Based on your above post how do you explain the numberS Howard put up this year ?

I don't have an explanation, nor would I hazard a guess about Howard. I'd prefer to be idealistic and think he's legitimate. Looking back at his career stats, his power numbers started surging in 2004. Maybe he just found his groove..who knows. However, based on what has transpired in baseball in the last 10-15 years, it's not surprising that people have speculated that he's taking something.

I hate to be getting jaded about the whole mess, but Maris's HR record stood for 37 or so years, and now someone annually is on pace to break it. It's obvious that something is going on other than the fact that players are taking Flintstone vitamins every day. Some of the increase can be attributed to training, but come on...Clemens is implicated...maybe true, maybe not..Brian Roberts was implicated, and he basically hit more HR's in 2005 than he's hit combined in his other 5 years in the league.. while he happened to be a teammate of Palmeiro and Tejada...you do the math.

Until Bud Selig comes out of hiding and decides to get tough with this whole mess, it's unfortunate that any player that does well will come under scrutiny, whether deserved or not. It's sad that the game has come to this.

2seamer

fact--Maris never hit more than 39 home runs before or after the 61 HR season--explain that

You know what !---it will never be the same--anyone who nears a record or a career year will be under a microscope-- but that is life-- we learn to live with it

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while he happened to be a teammate of Palmeiro and Tejada...you do the math.

Guilt by association? Thats where MLB would lose credability within it's ranks with the knee-jerk responses. My suggestion to anyone who has a college aged son is to ask if he is aware of teammates who "dabbled" in creatine or any other performance enhancer, or has a friend that has. If he does is it safe to say because you son was on the team or was a friend that he has also done it?

Very dangerous ground to tread without a method of verification.

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I don't think that it is up to team management to call a player to the carpet because they suspect he is a user, it is up to the league to police that area which would eliminate the greed factor. It is up to the team to protect their investment and that would be through huge contactual penalties if a player is caught.

If you're a project manager, and you suspect an employee is doing something illegal or detrimental, it would make sense that you would "call that employee to the carpet".

The teams aren't doing anything, because they are benefitting from lax enforcement from MLB. And they can't levy "huge contractual penalties", because the player's union wouldn't allow it.

Basically, the fox is guarding the henhouse. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at Barry Bonds and see the growth differential..do you think Felipe Alou or Giants management is going to do anything to upset Barry? Absolutely not.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to look at a player like Canseco or Sosa, and know that they were on the juice. If Astros management suspected that Clemens was taking something, do you honestly think they would have called him on the carpet in the middle of a pennant race?

So far my understanding is that Grimsley just said who he thought might be using. He didn't say he had any substantiation. Until there's some evidence such as prescriptions or a logbook with injection times there isn't enough to get worried about.

At this point I'll take it as a ballplayer who used steroids was suspicious. That makes me a little bit suspicious too. But that is as far as it goes for now.

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If you're a project manager, and you suspect an employee is doing something illegal or detrimental, it would make sense that you would "call that employee to the carpet".

If it was brought to my attention and verified yes. There are many situatation that I get results from people and in the back of my mind they are cutting corners when it ends up they are just doing a great job. I understand your opinion, but feel that there is a level of professional trust that has to be respected. Not everyones a crook.

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And they can't levy "huge contractual penalties", because the player's union wouldn't allow it

First things first, determine and set a policy. As with many issues, it is for the good of the players union to "go with the flow", as they also have a rep to uphold.

I still think that the key is to hit the minors, college, and development leagues hard. The issues you bring up are true. However, it's like a dandalion, we break off the top so it appears like we are doing something when the problem is really underground.

TR I was curious if you would have let your son take steroids knowing it is illegal and the potential harm it could do?
I have been given steroids for medical purposes and it didn't do anything for my sports performace.
You cannot compare legal medical use of steroids to a performance enhancing prolonged programed use of steroids.

I happened to stumble on this blurb about Jason Grimsley, and it illustrates perfectly why the use of steroids and growth hormone is an option players take the risk for..

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Grimsley confessed to the use of human growth hormones, amphetamines and steroids in 2003.[7]

His drug use began in 1998 while in Buffalo, New York. After a lackluster and eminently forgettable nine year MLB career, he was in the minors trying to get back to the majors after a shoulder injury. Among the drugs he has used are Deca-Durabolin, amphetamines, human growth hormone and Clenbuterol. Prior to the use of performance enhancing drugs he had earned a total of $1 million; subsequently he has earned $9 million. His ERA dropped by a run.[8]

Bobble, there's many different kinds of steroids used for medical reasons..anabolic steroids are the ones that enable the muscle growth.

Here's a possible solution that does not factor in a teams ability to "turn a blind eye".

MLB would eliminate/adjust a players retirement pension. This way the team would not have to be put in a accusitory situation and the player would be fully responsible for his actions. That would make any sensible man think twice about his future career as a Walmart Greeter.

There are a million ways to enhance your performance. From diet to exercise to hypnosis and everything in between. But only steroids can make you look like this:

http://www.greggvalentino.net/

Bobble

Who said anything about condoning ??

Dear Old Dad

I do nto think you have any idea about baseball players and steroids if you are using that as an example

Not really sure where you stood TR. You seem like a guy with old fashion values which is what I feel baseball is all about.
I think they should give ammnesty to all players who come forward volutarily and then after a reasonable short period of time they should take a zero tolerance position. Toughen their tests and the penalty should be career ending in MLB.

The US attorney made a statement last night that there was some substantial inaccuracies with regard to the names in the LA Times article. What kind of gutless coward is this that will not correct the inaccuracies. If I was one of the people named I would immediately sue the US Attorneys office for liable if my name is not in fact named on the affadavit(although you may not prove they leaked the info they sure have let it continue). There needs to be an investigation into this investigation. Conte stated that he never gave names to the investigator, Grimsley is stating he never gave names to the investigator. And I guess it is just coincidence that the investigator in both instances is the same person. My confidence in this investigation is waning on a daily basis.

It may be time to get a new prosecutor to lead this witch hunt.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Dear Old Dad

I do nto think you have any idea about baseball players and steroids if you are using that as an example

It's the perfect example. He's a freak, just like any juiced player is. You cannot equate what Randy Johnson is taking with steroid usage, as you posted earlier. Randy Johnson is only trying to return to his previous level of ability, which all players are allowed to be at. Steroids take you beyond your natural ability and you become a freak. We all root for any player who is trying to play through/return from injury. I don't see anyone now cheering for a player to juice up so he can break a record. We used to, but now we know better.

When Bonds hit 73 home runs, he was walked twice as much as his career avg. up to that point. Had he received the same amount of walks he normally receives, he would have hit 85 to 90 homers. McGwire also walked twice as much as his career avg. the year he hit 70 and would have hit 85 to 90 also without the walks.

These are freak numbers and should be looked at with derision, not awe. They are no better than the freak with the 28 inch arms.

Baseball was lucky. They were able to benefit from these superhuman performances. But if a pitcher ever started throwing 110mph and getting 27 strike outs in a game, there would be a huge scandal.

Looking at "freak" statistics, Clemens won 11 games when he was 30 followed by seasons of 9 wins, 10 wins and, again, 10 wins at age 33 when the BoSox gave up on him. then 5 years later at age 38 he wins 20. Very odd in the same barry bonds sort of way as rarely does an athelete's performance increase so dramatically at such advanced age.

Also, and purely for speculation-Clemens' out bursts of anger and throwing the way he did at Piazza for example and then throwing the broken bat AT Piazza in the WS- 'roid rage
Of course the guy recently threw at his own kid.

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Of course the guy recently threw at his own kid.

Isn't that half the fun of throwing BP to your son?

In all seriousness, you make some valid points. Idealistically, I'd like to think that Clemens wasn't taking SOMETHING. Realistically, with all the loopholes that exist in the testing program, neither the fans nor MLB has a clue who is taking a banned substance.

Some people, like Barry, are obvious...just from the radically enlarged coconut he calls a head. Other guys, like Palmeiro, weren't big enough to give visual clues.

A few weeks ago, someone posted a picture of Luis Gonzales showing how big he was a few years ago, and speculated that it's a possibility that he'd been taking something...then Luis's fans came to his defense, because he's not that kind of guy,he's against steroid use, etc., etc.

Guys and gals, it isn't that simple anymore. There's absolutely no way to tell who's clean, and who isn't. The fault for that lies in the lap of Bud Selig and the Player's Union.

Speaking of Bud, apparently he's still in hiding...I haven't heard a peep from him in quite a while.