Coach calling pitches

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I hereby nominate this last post by Coach May for Post of the Month.

I second that nomination.

During recruiting that was an important question for son, if the caoch said they called the game, he didn't want to play for them.

My view from a parent of a pitcher, on the HS team, my son really had no choice, his catcher was barely a catcher. However, his catchers always called the game in travel ball, college and in the cape league. This is probably the single most important thing that a coach can do for his catchers and pitchers. There's a basic sequence, but in difficult situations you can only learn by making those decisions yourself, if you are taught early and capable of doing it. You can't learn if you don't do it on your own. And that knowledge and experience does help you to get to the next level.

There is one important thing that stands out in Coach May's post, that is teaching the game within the game during practice. Many coaches DO NOT do that. I am not sure if they are just not capable of it, or just don't want to, or feel the greater need not to let go and let their players play the game.

JMO.

By TRHit:

"How do the catchers in HS/College learn how to call a game if they don't get to call the pitches?

We allow our catchers to call the game and we talk with them between innings about the calls and we include the pitcher in the discussion as well-- many time the catcher has a very valid reason for calling the pitch even if it hurt them."

BY TPM:

"The reason I think some don't allow it is because they just don't know how to do it or don't spend time teaching it. Or have such huge EGOS they have to control everything. The coach (whoever) that teaches catchers to call their own game is doing their job, that is letting the player develop."

By Orlando:

"If a coach is retaining the right to call the game, it would seem to indicate either he doesn't trust his catcher or his EGO requires him to retain that control. The former means he has some coaching to do; the latter may or may not mean success for the team, but it's not a baseball reason."

By Coach May:

"Part of being a catcher is learning why you throw a certain pitch in a certain situation. Too many HS coaches see calling pitches as a part of their job as a coach. Actually in my opinion IT'S YOUR JOB to teach your catchers to call their own game. If you have to do it then YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR JOB."

"So why would I want to take calling the pitches and learning the game away from my catcher? They need to learn this because it teaches them about the game and their position."

By Coachric:

"Yes, my goal like others here is to have the catcher call the game."

"So as soon as the catcher shows the quality of leadership and listens to the game plan and shows he can execute it, he gets the opportunity to be his own man. Its definitely different for each kid, but at many levels through college and even minors, coaches are still calling pitches, and thats why its accepted. Its not necessarily the best way."



By Retired:

"For posters to think that their way is the only way and that those that opt to do differently are "ruining baseball" is a very ignorant stance IMO."

To RGM:

I know this was meant for me because you sent me an immature irrelevant private message bragging about your successes with catchers(among other things) and insuatiing that maybe I should coach if I thought I could do better.-and I had a good laugh-thanks, but where-WHERE-did I EVER question YOU or any coach about their catcher-coaching methods????? Irrelevant to my point. You can be the best catcher-coach in the world but not allowing them to call pitches is akin to having your #3 or #4 hitter always taking a pitch when the count is 3-0. You may have taught them great skills at catching and hitting but then you handicap them by not allowing them to hone those skills to the fullest. THE GAME IS NOT ABOUT YOU and maybe someday you will come to that realization. Some very experienced, knowledeable, successful parents, coaches, former players, may resent you calling their positions ignorant,don't know. But I respect these people, not because they agree with me, because we have disagreed in the past, but because they make their points without making insecure and condescending statements. Lose your ego, come down out of the clouds and keep an open mind before you automatically become defensive when your manhood(coaching) is questioned.

This is what I said:


"Don't know when coaches calling pitches became the norm, maybe it was a gradual thing but I think it's ruining the game of amateur baseball from LL through college. If a coach sees something in a batter and wants to have a certain pitch thrown in a certain situation, by all means, call the pitch. Yes, coaches(HS and College) need to win to keep their jobs, but what's the reasoning for the Rice coach who has a College World Series Championship and let his catchers call ALL the pitches."

I also said "I guess some coaches are better than others."

If you still think that coaches should be calling all the pitches then I will continue to disagree with you and give my opinion.

Coach May, another point may be that at times we are talking apples-to-oranges. Different situations dictate different coaching philosophies.

My background has for the most part been at the 18U level of summer ball. In having kids come to Dallas to play for us from different cities & states we have been pressed for time as to practicing before the summer starts in late May or early June. A great deal of our coaches teaching the new kids their system has had to be done on the fly and in games....hence the need to call pitches and put in the defensive plays.

Ideally it would be great to be able to practice for months like HS teams do but that is not possible. There have been times where we have had different catchers for several summers in a row so there is a significant learning curve for both coaches and receivers in getting comfortable with each other. Additionally, we have to deal with the varying levels of teaching that the players have gotten from their respective HS coaches (please keep in mind that Texas is a football state ). It is a challenge but it all comes together eventually and our teams have always gotten stronger as the summers progress.

Now that I am coaching my own son in 7U Coach Pitch our biggest challenge with catchers is just getting them to catch the ball.....LOL

Retired GM,
Around here competitive summer travel ball, you get a few practices and that's it. You are chosen for your abilities to play because you have the talent and catch on quickly , or you sit. In milb when a pitcher or catcher arrives to another level, and has to play that night or the next you have very little time to "get to know" each other.

You are giving excuses and you don't have to, everyone has their way of doing things, but if you read you will see that as parents of players of catchers and pitchers who wish their players to go to top level programs or higher level of BB, learning to do it on your own is a plus, plus, plus. This is not to say that at anytime in a game situation the coach may need to step in, but if he has done his job, he shouldn't have to.
If you polled many parents here, most likely they have had coaches who do not allow them to control the game, for many reasons. I don't get your statment how it (players taking control of the game) is ruining the game of baseball, can you explain?
If you are in college and haven't figured out what to call or throw in a certain count or situation, not sure if you belong there.

FWIW, not surprising why so many of Coach May's players (including his own son) attend top college programs.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Around here competitive summer travel ball, you get a few practices and that's it. You are chosen for your abilities to play because you have the talent and catch on quickly , or you sit. In milb when a pitcher or catcher arrives to another level, and has to play that night or the next you have very little time to "get to know" each other.

IMO, comparing HS players to pro players is a stretch. My post had nothing to do with pro players.

Now, any particular player coming into our 18U program might be a future first-rounder but he still has to learn the coach's system.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You are giving excuses and you don't have to...

Not an excuse at all. Was actually a reference to Coach May’s most recent post in which he mentioned there is no one way to coach. I was pointing out the challenge of coaching 18U summer ball compared to HS ball.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I don't get your statment how it (players taking control of the game) is ruining the game of baseball, can you explain?

I never said that. You might want to re-read my posts.

To clarify, I have no problem at all with whatever any coach at any amateur level wants to do with his program. The ones that are successful will continue to rise to the top regardless of whether or not they choose to call pitches. I do, however, think that posters who tend to paint all coaches with one broad brush fail to fully grasp the concept of coaching.

Although in principal I agree that there’s absolutely no reason a coach who truly knows how to teach, and truly understands how to call a game, needs to call pitches, I tend to have a slightly different take on the whole thing.

Retired GM says he doesn’t thinks posters who tend to paint all coaches with one broad brush fail to fully grasp the concept of coaching. Well, I agree, but I also believe that that kind of mind set goes both ways. I.e., no matter what success a coach has had in the past with his system, it would be ludicrous to believe for one second that his way is always the BEST way.

IOW, there are some players that actually thrive having the coach calling pitches, but its just as likely that there are some players who thrive when the coach keeps himself out the game on the field. Having that understanding is one thing, but having that understanding and doing something overt about it to optimize a player’s performance and skills, is something vastly different.

Of course to believe that, one has to also believe that each pitcher has his own unique style. I happen to be someone who believes it. I will admit one thing though, it’s a lot easier and more expedient for the coach to just do things one way. By style, I mean everything the pitcher does kept in context.

Here’s a for instance. Rafael Bettancourt for the Indians drive everyone absolutely nuts with all the time he takes between pitches. But that’s his style. Someone else though, might have a style that makes him a guy who gets the ball bavk, and is ready to let ‘er fly again.

I also happen to believe that much of what a batter perceives on one pitch, is very dependent on the prior pitch. Part of the reason I believe that, is because I believe a lot of how hitter perform is done subconsciously. Now whether or not that’s a concept that valid, there sure seems to be something to one pitch depending on the last one.

If that wasn’t true, why bother to vary velocity, pitch types, movement, or location? The whole reason for that is to try to keep the batter from recognizing the pitch and location as long as possible. IOW, its deception. Anyone who wants to try to disprove that concept, should have a pitcher at any level just pump pitch after pitch as close to one location and velocity as possible. It won’t matter if it’s a 105MPH FB, a great Uncle Charlie, or the best Pedro Martinez CU. If something doesn’t change, its nothing more than batting cages. No, every pitch won’t sail over the fence, but eventually the hitter will get the timing and location down, and his chances of hitting the ball well will increase.

When Greg Gagne was on the juice and throwing his FB at 98 and his CU at 78, it really didn’t make a lot of difference how quickly he pitched. The differences in those pitches was so great, batter’s minds couldn’t cope. But what about a guy who throws say 88 on top and that same 78 on the bottom? The velocity difference isn’t that much. So, if he throws more rapidly, the batter’s mind doesn’t have time to make the adjustments.
Given everything was equal, will the 2nd guy ever be as troublesome to hitters as the 1st? No. But he can certainly help himself by throwing more quickly.

Players that play ahead of the game and attack the game will always be better players than the ones waiting to be told what to do. Teams that coach themsleves on the field and attack the game will always be better than teams that are coached from the dugout.

I agree with GM that sometimes you have to make adjustments in the way you do things. There is no one way to do anything imo. Ideally imo you want your players to play the game which means the games within the game on their own and you make suggestions between innings. IMO Coaching from the dugout hinders development and confidence in players.

When I can sit back and watch them play and just offer suggestions at certain times during the game I know I am doing a good job of coaching my players. The coaching should be done before the game so you dont have to do it during the game. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Players that play ahead of the game and attack the game will always be better players than the ones waiting to be told what to do. Teams that coach themsleves on the field and attack the game will always be better than teams that are coached from the dugout.

I don’t know about ALWAYS, but I’d stake large sums that given all other things being equal, the teams/players that don’t need anyone holding their hand or helping them make decisions during a game will execute and therefore perform better the vast majority of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:I agree with GM that sometimes you have to make adjustments in the way you do things. There is no one way to do anything imo. Ideally imo you want your players to play the game which means the games within the game on their own and you make suggestions between innings. IMO Coaching from the dugout hinders development and confidence in players.

When I can sit back and watch them play and just offer suggestions at certain times during the game I know I am doing a good job of coaching my players. The coaching should be done before the game so you dont have to do it during the game. JMO

Great thoughts! This isn’t an indictment of coaches in general, but it is what I think is a valid observation. If someone wants to have real control of a game, they should put on the spikes and get on a team, otherwise pass on all that wonderful knowledge to the players so they could do it!

I have a good friend that used to be a pitching coach in the ML, and of course we’ve talked about coaches calling pitches. He said they brought up a young catcher once, that when they put him in a game to get some innings or rest the regular catcher, he’d keep looking to the dugout to see if they wanted him to relay a sign. About the 3rd game he did that, Walt Alston told him to go out there and tell the catcher, that the next time he looked in the dugout for a sign, would be the last time he did it in the Dodger organization.

There’s nothing so sacrosanct about calling pitches that even a young kid couldn’t learn how to do pretty well. Of course there’s some things that just can’t be learned without lots of experience, but in general, it just ain’t that difficult.

Sorry, but Coach May is 100% accurate. Players that can figure out what to do on their own will always be better than the ones waiting to be told.
How fast the pitcher works has nothing to do with catchers and pitchers controlling their own game.

This thread has got me thinking about some things that just drive me crazy.

From the dugout during a game.

"Bunt strikes!" Sorry but we just have not had the time to work on bunting in practice.

"Throw strikes!" Sorry but we just dont have to work with our guys in the pens.

"Cut 4 double cut 2!" Look guys just listen to me from the dugout I will make the cut calls for you. "Jimmy why didnt you redirect that cut when the right fielder bobbled the baseball?" "Uh I was waiting for you to do it coach."


Hit and run to right field behind the runner at 1st base. "Why didnt you come on to third base?" "Well coach you always tell us to look to you to bring us."

"Where was that pitch?" "Thats not what I called is it?" This is what is said when a kid hits a bomb.

"Thats what I am talking about. We set him up bigtime." This is what is said when they get him out.

"Why did you throw behind that runner?" "He had nothing." This is what is said when the catcher tries to steal an out.

"Great job way to be agressive." This is what is said when he does steal an out.

I could go on for days. But the bottom line is when coaches "Coach" instead of teach and then let play you end up with players that do not have any fun. Its a relief when they dont screw up. When you teach and then allow them to play your players have fun playing the game. And they grow as players and learn to think for themselves and coach themselves.

Ask any player what kind of environment they WANT to play in. An environment where they are encouraged to attack the game and let it hang out and learn what they can and can not do. Or in an environment where everything is dictated by the dugout and its only OK when it goes good.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
…Ask any player what kind of environment they WANT to play in. An environment where they are encouraged to attack the game and let it hang out and learn what they can and can not do. Or in an environment where everything is dictated by the dugout and its only OK when it goes good.

One way it’s a very intricate game that has many twists and turns. The other its nothing more than another mundane job that doesn’t take any thinking or whimsy.

Coach May,

Good post.

As you know, son's college pitching coach was a firm beleiver that you can only learn by making your own decisions. As a pitcher if you shook off the pitch and made a mistake, you most likely would never do it again.

One thing I detest is watching a coach control the game and when things go wrong they jump all over the player. When things go right they take the credit. I'd rather my son play for a coach who is confidant in teaching the basics and let them lean how to play and not afraid of losing. The way I see it, in the end coaches who allow their players to play their own game usually end up with more wins than losses anyway.

If a player (in this case catcher or pitcher) is talented enough, he will sooner or later be unable to choose his coach. This requires the ability to adjust and to perform no matter how the coach coaches.

I always preferred allowing a smart catcher to call the game, with a little help (suggestions) from the dugout, but I could see the reason some coaches called pitches. A catcher has a lot of things to think about and all catchers are not equal (mentally or physically).

A similar argument in football might be why not allow the QB to call his own plays. Usually the way that works is the play is sent in and the smarter QBs are allowed to change the play (audible). I believe that most coaches who call pitches will also give their catcher and pitcher the option to change the call.

While I would agree with most who prefer players making their own decisions, it’s easy to understand the logic behind two heads are better than one. Guess it all comes down to if the coach calling pitches is making suggestions or giving orders.

It is possible that the catcher and pitcher forgot that a certain hitter can’t touch the breaking ball, but the coach might not have forgotten. Coaches don’t perform the plays, but they do think a lot! That said I think the best catchers and the best coaches seem to be on the same page most all the time. Same goes for the best pitchers.

The catcher is the closest thing you have to a coach on the field.

BTW, some coaches who appear to call every pitch are quickly giving the catcher the “your choice” sign most of the time. We actually wanted our catchers to glance into the dugout on every pitch. That way if we had anything to signal we didn’t have to yell at him. Most all the time we would simply give him “go”. It can spoil the game when all the signals take too long but that doesn’t happen much with well coached teams. On another note, nothing looks more unprofessional than a 3B coach giving signs for 10 seconds or more.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Guess it all comes down to if the coach calling pitches is making suggestions or giving orders.

Good point!

I hope it doesn’t sound as though I’m taking unnecessary shots at all coaches who call pitches, because that surely isn’t my intent. If there’s some kind of game plan in effect, or there’s been a lot of scouting/studying of the opponents, I don’t have a lot of problems with calling pitches from the dugout.

But this isn’t MLB or pro baseball we’re talkin’ about here. This is HS and below where there’s little if any information such as Pitch f/x, or the vast array of MLB stats available out there. And heck, more often than not, if a coach gets to see an opposition player come to the plate more than 10 times in a year, its pretty amazing, so how much can they possibly KNOW? And even if they kept stats for say the 4 years of HS ball or the 4 years just prior to HS ball, how much would those numbers really mean, even if they were valid?

With players going through so many changes between 10 and 13 or 14 to 17, who would be so silly as to risk a whole lot on that happened more than a couple years ago? Its not that players don’t change once they get to the pros, but its unlikely they’ll change as much from 27 to 30 as they do from 12 to 16.

This prolly isn’t common, but I went through it for 3 years. The coach who called the pitches didn’t ever, and I mean ever, even watch, let alone work with the P’s in Pens! He was the hitting coach and all he was doing was calling pitches because he was a C in college. Sorry, but that’s pretty lame to me. I know that’s likely an extreme, but it happens.

The bottom line here for me is, I don’t see how a coach could possibly call better pitches and locations at the level we’re talking about here, if for no other reason than normal HS and below P’s can’t execute the pitch type or location well enough to make the chances of success that much higher than if some catcher with poor game galling abilities did it.

I have to admit...

When I first read this topic and replied, I failed to even notice it was in the pre high school section.

Therefore, I agree with what SKeep has said. Only reason I can think of for calling pitches at a young age would be if the coach was interested in keeping a young pitcher from throwing too many curveballs or something like that. However, I think the Little League World Series disproves that theory.

SKeep Better watch out, the EGO's are gettin ready to unload on you.

Your post IMO is pretty accurate, and your statement about the college coaches calling pitches because they are coaches in college is not as uncommon as you state. It's especially frustrating to see coaches with absolutely no experience behind the plate or on the mound acting as though they wrote the book on pitch-calling. Most of the coaches posting on this site have it figured out and their players have certainly benefited from it.

Was coaching an all-star team a few years back and one of the coaches asked me who was going to call the pitches- I said the catcher-why? He said he'd just never seen it done before, sad. BTW, the team won the district, state, and lost in the regionals 1-0. It wasn't the coaching, it was the coach getting out of the way and letting the players do their thing. These kids were all good athletes and had already been trained well.

It's funny how coaches can say that they don't trust the catchers to call the pitches, especially in college. Who recruited these players? One of two things-either it was a poor job of recruiting or a poor job of coaching once they got to college.

YES, there's always exceptions to the rule and in HS you're stuck with what you have but I've seen coaches take players in HS who have never caught before and before mid-season they look like they've been behind the plate for years and yes they're calling the pitches. Wonder how they did it?

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
SKeep Better watch out, the EGO's are gettin ready to unload on you.

S’al right. I’m old and suffering form th eMad Cow, so if someone beats up on me, I won’t remember the next day anyhoo! LOL!

quote:

Your post IMO is pretty accurate, and your statement about the college coaches calling pitches because they are coaches in college is not as uncommon as you state. It's especially frustrating to see coaches with absolutely no experience behind the plate or on the mound acting as though they wrote the book on pitch-calling. Most of the coaches posting on this site have it figured out and their players have certainly benefited from it.

A lot of times people forget that the folks normally posting in forums like this, aren’t the bad coaches or the foolish parent with illusions of grandeur for their child. As a group, I’d say the folks who post are definitely above average when it comes to baseball knowledge. Because of that, we(the inclusive we) sometimes see things that are so foreign to us or what we’d do, we’re ready to go to battle.

Looking at it like that, I’m guessing even those coaches who call pitches, are doing it for some other reason than just to exercise control, or because they can’t or won’t teach the players how to do it for themselves. Unfortunately, the knuckleheads that really need to learn about such things seldom show up here!

quote:

Was coaching an all-star team a few years back and one of the coaches asked me who was going to call the pitches- I said the catcher-why? He said he'd just never seen it done before, sad. …

Very!

quote:

It's funny how coaches can say that they don't trust the catchers to call the pitches, especially in college. Who recruited these players? One of two things-either it was a poor job of recruiting or a poor job of coaching once they got to college.

I’m guessing its prolly more that it’s a fear of the unknown, plus a fear that calling one wrong pitch or location is gonna cost the team the game.

quote:

YES, there's always exceptions to the rule and in HS you're stuck with what you have but I've seen coaches take players in HS who have never caught before and before mid-season they look like they've been behind the plate for years and yes they're calling the pitches. Wonder how they did it?

Its simple. Its just not that difficult, but for some reason many folks make it out to be something as difficult as brain surgery. Mebbe it’s a fear on the part of some coaches who think that if people found out even kids could do a decent job of it, somehow the coach would lose respect or become less relevant. But if anyone’s ever been around a program that had a coach who seemed to do more by doing less, I’ll bet they’ve heard nothing but raves from players, parents, officials, and opponents.

The fellow I was talking about who coached under Walt Alston has told me about a million stories about what made him such a great manager. He got good people around him, then let them do the job they were getting paid for while holding them accountable, and it works the same in other business too.

In fact, it just dawned on me what having a coach/manager who has to keep doing all these things is doing. It’s the most dreaded word in any management class, symposium, book, or article I’ve ever had anything to do with. MICROMANAGEMENT!