Machine pitch was not an option when my son was younger but is getting quite common in some areas now. I think some areas give the parents a choice in the 7-8 age bracket. What is the best and why??
Fungo
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For me hitting is all about seeing the ball released and timing--I prefer coaches pitching at this age or any age for that matter because it gives the young player more of what he needs to become a budding young hitter
Ask yourself this--- why do MLB teams spend money in hiring good BP pitchers every year ? Good BP pitcher sare worth theri weight in gold.
Ask yourself this--- why do MLB teams spend money in hiring good BP pitchers every year ? Good BP pitcher sare worth theri weight in gold.
Good point TR.
Now, aside from just getting the ball over the plate, what are the attributes of a good BP pitcher? Having thrown thousands of pitches to my son and various team-mates over the years, it's probably time to take BP pitching to the next level. Thanks . .
Now, aside from just getting the ball over the plate, what are the attributes of a good BP pitcher? Having thrown thousands of pitches to my son and various team-mates over the years, it's probably time to take BP pitching to the next level. Thanks . .
Having coached my son in a coach-pitch league (ages 7 & 8) and now having seen that league move to machine pitch, I have to say that machine pitching is far better.
The progression of a young player's development is from tee ball (swing, hit a stationery ball, run hard, turn left) to instructional coach or machine pitch (hit a moving ball, but we WANT you to hit it) to "kid pitch" (hit a moving ball, the pitcher wants to get you out).
With this in mind, there is no need to rush to the stage of seeing the ball out of the pitcher's hand. Machine pitch offers a lot of advantages. Some teams have coaches who can throw darts, really setting up their hitters; others can't find a dad who can even get it over the plate consistently. This gives some teams an unfair advantage and also makes some games interminably long -- at an age when attention span is a big issue. I've even seen games end after 4 innings when a 2-hour time limit was reached, just because so many balls were thrown.
Machine pitch games tend to fit in all 6 innings in the time allotted -- in fact, most games end in 1:15. Action moves quickly and most balls are put in play. Everyone gets into the game and it's all over before anyone gets bored.
For a small up-front investment, machine pitch is the way to go.
The progression of a young player's development is from tee ball (swing, hit a stationery ball, run hard, turn left) to instructional coach or machine pitch (hit a moving ball, but we WANT you to hit it) to "kid pitch" (hit a moving ball, the pitcher wants to get you out).
With this in mind, there is no need to rush to the stage of seeing the ball out of the pitcher's hand. Machine pitch offers a lot of advantages. Some teams have coaches who can throw darts, really setting up their hitters; others can't find a dad who can even get it over the plate consistently. This gives some teams an unfair advantage and also makes some games interminably long -- at an age when attention span is a big issue. I've even seen games end after 4 innings when a 2-hour time limit was reached, just because so many balls were thrown.
Machine pitch games tend to fit in all 6 innings in the time allotted -- in fact, most games end in 1:15. Action moves quickly and most balls are put in play. Everyone gets into the game and it's all over before anyone gets bored.
For a small up-front investment, machine pitch is the way to go.
Our local little league president said that this year they (8 to 9 year olds) are machine pitching for 4/5 innings and will have 1 inning of player pitch, limiting the kids to about 20/30 pitches per week, and just 1 appearance on the mound.
If you have a coach with just a little coordination and capability, then coach pitch is far, far better than the machine for several reasons:
1. As has been mentioned, seeing the ball out of the hand.
2. Is more practical: It's far quicker.
3. Coaches do not need maintenance (at lease on a regular basis) and tend to be far more reliable.
4. It's just a lot more fun for all involved.
1. As has been mentioned, seeing the ball out of the hand.
2. Is more practical: It's far quicker.
3. Coaches do not need maintenance (at lease on a regular basis) and tend to be far more reliable.
4. It's just a lot more fun for all involved.
(quite)Kevin11
Our local little league president said that this year they (8 to 9 year olds) are machine pitching for 4/5 innings and will have 1 inning of player pitch, limiting the kids to about 20/30 pitches per week, and just 1 appearance on the mound.
I think this is a good plan.
I tried to get are LL to do this 10yrs ago but they didn't.
They said it would not devolop Pitching.
My arguement was that they were not devoloping good defensive skills. With to many Walks. Not enough quality coach Pitchers also.
Machine pitch would give the same pitch over and over.
Which would be good for timing.
More hits means more action in the field, which means better overall ball players later. The EH
Our local little league president said that this year they (8 to 9 year olds) are machine pitching for 4/5 innings and will have 1 inning of player pitch, limiting the kids to about 20/30 pitches per week, and just 1 appearance on the mound.
I think this is a good plan.
I tried to get are LL to do this 10yrs ago but they didn't.
They said it would not devolop Pitching.
My arguement was that they were not devoloping good defensive skills. With to many Walks. Not enough quality coach Pitchers also.
Machine pitch would give the same pitch over and over.
Which would be good for timing.
More hits means more action in the field, which means better overall ball players later. The EH
My local Little League made the switch from Coach Pitch to Machine Pitch a few years ago. It has been successful and seems to have produced better hitters when they graduate to kid pitch.
When kids come out of T-Ball, they seem to drop their hands and upper-cut, rather than taking the bat straight to the ball. The little kids want to see the ball in the air, so they try to loft it off the tee. When they moved to Coach Pitch, the coaches lobbed a big, arcing pitch into them, re-inforcing the upper-cut. When they moved to kid pitch, they couldn't hit a flat pitch to save their lives and the coaches spent a whole year breaking them of the "t-ball" swing.
The machine will throw a fairly consistent, flat pitch that the kids don't have to be afraid of being hit by. They learn to hit the ball where it is pitched and loose the "t-ball" swing. They also get used to seeing a flat pitch comming at them, rather than a looping beachball served into their wheelhouses.
The concensus in our Little League is that the machine has made our 7-8 year olds better 9-10 year old hitters.
When kids come out of T-Ball, they seem to drop their hands and upper-cut, rather than taking the bat straight to the ball. The little kids want to see the ball in the air, so they try to loft it off the tee. When they moved to Coach Pitch, the coaches lobbed a big, arcing pitch into them, re-inforcing the upper-cut. When they moved to kid pitch, they couldn't hit a flat pitch to save their lives and the coaches spent a whole year breaking them of the "t-ball" swing.
The machine will throw a fairly consistent, flat pitch that the kids don't have to be afraid of being hit by. They learn to hit the ball where it is pitched and loose the "t-ball" swing. They also get used to seeing a flat pitch comming at them, rather than a looping beachball served into their wheelhouses.
The concensus in our Little League is that the machine has made our 7-8 year olds better 9-10 year old hitters.
HeavyD is exactly right. Coach pitch is awful. The coaches just lob these softball pitches in there. They try to hit a spot where the kids likes it (high, low, inside, etc.). Most of them can't throw strikes consistently. The machine in our league is 40mph from 45 feet. After the first 3 games all the kids have caught up with the speed and it's a much more realistic pitch to hit. When they move to minors the following year, most of the pitchers are throwing in the low 40's and the machine pitch kids catch on quickly. The machine pitch kids are much better hitters in the 9/10 league.
Machine pitch also helps develop catchers. You don't get that in coach pitch.
Jon
Machine pitch also helps develop catchers. You don't get that in coach pitch.
Jon
Depends on the coach doing the pitching. If the coach can't throw staight, then you are correct. But it the coach can get it over and straight, then it's far, far better. As far as the catchers go, I don't understand that statement at all.
will
I respectfully disagree with you on both counts.
The good BP Coach even at the low LL levels does not have to lob the ball and usually the Dads involved at the young ages are young dads themselves so most are in pretty good shape
As for the catcher what does machine/non machine have to do with it--if anything the catcher gets better with real pitching because every pitch is different--with a machine every pitch is in the same spot
I respectfully disagree with you on both counts.
The good BP Coach even at the low LL levels does not have to lob the ball and usually the Dads involved at the young ages are young dads themselves so most are in pretty good shape
As for the catcher what does machine/non machine have to do with it--if anything the catcher gets better with real pitching because every pitch is different--with a machine every pitch is in the same spot
One thing to remember is that the timing issue is the greatest here. When the coach is pitching the batter has to be aware of the release and see the type of pitch and time it to hit. The pitching machines are a basic release with the same times and speed. They are good for basic mechanics but that is all. Why do you think batters have the most problems with change ups? Timing comes from live pitching and different pitches.
Quote above from 'jemaz'
3. Coaches do not need maintenance (at lease on a regular basis) and tend to be far more reliable.
Oh man, you've never seen me throw BP!!!
3. Coaches do not need maintenance (at lease on a regular basis) and tend to be far more reliable.
Oh man, you've never seen me throw BP!!!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The good BP Coach even at the low LL levels does not have to lob the ball...
As for the catcher what does machine/non machine have to do with it--if anything the catcher gets better with real pitching because every pitch is different--with a machine every pitch is in the same spot
TRhit:
In my experience, the vast majority of the coaches in Coach Pitch served up softballs to their hitters. Some did it because they couldn't throw a flat pitch consistently for a strike; others because they wanted to put the ball right into each hitter's favorite spot. A Coach who threw flat pitches to his kids was the exception, not the rule when my son was that age.
Another problem that my Little League experienced when kids went from Coach Pitch to Kid Pitch was being afraid of the ball. The kids had never stood at the plate and had a 40-45mph ball come at them before. On the rare occasion when a Coach did throw something flat to the kids, they bailed out of the box and hit the dirt if the ball was even close to the inside half of the plate. The machine gave the 7-8 year old kids in our league the flat pitch, in the strike zone, without the fear of being drilled in the back... Granted, they don't get to see the ball come out of the pitcher's hand, but they do have to pick it up as it comes off the wheel. We felt that learning to hit a flat pitch was more important than seeing the ball come out of the pitcher's hand at age 7-8.
As far as catchers are concerned, I don't think it makes any difference. We played tight bases with no runners advancing on passed balls, so the catcher was not much more than a backstop unless there was a play on a runner at the plate.
I agree with Midlo Dad, Heavy D & willj1967. If you have a choice, I would go machine pitch. The managers & coaches at the 6 years old to 8 years old level of play in various little leagues across the country are not usually chosen for the BP ability. The machine pitch evens out the disparity between BP pitching abilities in that every player is learning to hit the same basic pitch over and over again. In an issue of timing vs mechanics at this age level, I will take mechanics every time. Timing is something that can be worked on from age 9 on up when they usually face live pitching from their peers.
The uppercut swing coming out of T-Ball is almost always an issue in our league. "Smart coaches" will pitch BP to that tendency instead of trying to break them of it. Machine pitching forces every player to swing closer to a level plane which is more desirable in the long run [although I admit that a lot of major leaguers have made a great living off of an uppercut swing].
I am pretty sure I know what willj is talking about with the catchers. It appears to me that a lot of the critics of machine pitch are assuming that the BP coach pitches are going to be consistently located. In our league that is far from the reality. Therefore, the 7 to 8 year old catcher is constantly [and i mean constantly] missing the ball thrown slightly to his left, or right or [mostly] in the dirt. However, the machine pitch is the same place [basically] every time and the well coached catcher can set up in the same spot and catch the ball and throw it back. Makes for a quicker game and a more confident and less frustrated catching prospect.
Duex ex Machina
The uppercut swing coming out of T-Ball is almost always an issue in our league. "Smart coaches" will pitch BP to that tendency instead of trying to break them of it. Machine pitching forces every player to swing closer to a level plane which is more desirable in the long run [although I admit that a lot of major leaguers have made a great living off of an uppercut swing].
I am pretty sure I know what willj is talking about with the catchers. It appears to me that a lot of the critics of machine pitch are assuming that the BP coach pitches are going to be consistently located. In our league that is far from the reality. Therefore, the 7 to 8 year old catcher is constantly [and i mean constantly] missing the ball thrown slightly to his left, or right or [mostly] in the dirt. However, the machine pitch is the same place [basically] every time and the well coached catcher can set up in the same spot and catch the ball and throw it back. Makes for a quicker game and a more confident and less frustrated catching prospect.
Duex ex Machina
TR hit.
The problem with the Coach pitch is that the Kids that can't hit well are fed the ball.
The parents will blame the Coach for not pitching well enough to there child.
With the Machine pitch everything is equal, and nothing to blame it on.
I agree that live pitching is better at an older age, But were also trying to teach hand eye cordination, and the defense will get alot more action. Rather than walk walk walk with young kid pitch. The EH
The problem with the Coach pitch is that the Kids that can't hit well are fed the ball.
The parents will blame the Coach for not pitching well enough to there child.
With the Machine pitch everything is equal, and nothing to blame it on.
I agree that live pitching is better at an older age, But were also trying to teach hand eye cordination, and the defense will get alot more action. Rather than walk walk walk with young kid pitch. The EH
Has anyone had experience with the "mechanical style" machines. I saw one advertised in a bbx catalog for about $150.00 ... looks like you step on a pedal to work it, no power source.
I see both sides of this, prefer kids to hit live but finding volunteers that can throw strikes without lobbing it in there is a problem as well. The bigger problem I see is kids either being taught or adopting the "flat bat" swing that works great against machines but is worthless otherwise. It is hard to convince them to change after they have had success.
I see both sides of this, prefer kids to hit live but finding volunteers that can throw strikes without lobbing it in there is a problem as well. The bigger problem I see is kids either being taught or adopting the "flat bat" swing that works great against machines but is worthless otherwise. It is hard to convince them to change after they have had success.
At that age I'm not sure that it matters either one way or the other machine or 'good' coach pitch (not the lob guys, that doesn't help anyone). If the coaches can't or don't teach some basic mechanics then it won't matter anyway. The kids who 'get it' have most likely had a knowledgeable dad or older brother show them some basics and they'll hit the ball all over the place off a coach or machine. The kids who don't have a clue will remain clueless, rarely hitting a machine pitch and sometimes hitting a coach lob, but not gaining anything by it.
For the most part, in my experience, the instructional leagues in town are populated by well-meaning pressed-into-service-dad coaches, many of whom have no clue either. You know some of them have played less ball than their kids most likely. Most of them are not coaching when the kids hit real LL age, 9-12. I applaud them for stepping up, but seriously, your average 12 Y/O all star would be better suited to instruct the kids than some of these guys.
Having said that, in every age group there seem to be 2 or 3 dads that are quite good, provide solid instruction and their kids and their teams show it. These guys all throw good BP pitches to the kids and stop and instruct as they do it. There just aren't enough of those guys to go around.
I know that it isn't this way in other areas, but that's been pretty consistent in our town, and it shows all the way up to HS.
For the most part, in my experience, the instructional leagues in town are populated by well-meaning pressed-into-service-dad coaches, many of whom have no clue either. You know some of them have played less ball than their kids most likely. Most of them are not coaching when the kids hit real LL age, 9-12. I applaud them for stepping up, but seriously, your average 12 Y/O all star would be better suited to instruct the kids than some of these guys.
Having said that, in every age group there seem to be 2 or 3 dads that are quite good, provide solid instruction and their kids and their teams show it. These guys all throw good BP pitches to the kids and stop and instruct as they do it. There just aren't enough of those guys to go around.
I know that it isn't this way in other areas, but that's been pretty consistent in our town, and it shows all the way up to HS.
It's been my experience that the leagues in our area that use a machine are w-a-y behind the kids that face coaches or kids pitching.
You simply can not learn proper timing from a machine. The best young hitters typically have seen the most live arms. We have had the best success by using many kids/dads pitch to kids in our practices. We recruit as many arms as possible, including older brothers, lefties, righties, etc.
To learn to hit, kids HAVE to take their cuts. We break the swings down with T work, soft toss, front toss and the cage at every practice. But where they learn to "hit" is by seeing many different arm slots and speeds. A machine simply can not provide the experience and knowledge required to be effective in the box.
You simply can not learn proper timing from a machine. The best young hitters typically have seen the most live arms. We have had the best success by using many kids/dads pitch to kids in our practices. We recruit as many arms as possible, including older brothers, lefties, righties, etc.
To learn to hit, kids HAVE to take their cuts. We break the swings down with T work, soft toss, front toss and the cage at every practice. But where they learn to "hit" is by seeing many different arm slots and speeds. A machine simply can not provide the experience and knowledge required to be effective in the box.
I guess the rules differ from state to state or city to city. In our area, coach pitch catchers do not squat behind the plate. They stand back by the fence with a batting helmet on. This was done for safety purposes. Too many 6-7 yr old kids throw their bats. In coach pitch, runners cannot steal. In our machine pitch league, the ball is live and runners can steal in compliance with traditional LL rules (except can't steal home). The pitch location from the machine moves around but stays around the strike zone. So catchers learn to catch the ball cleanly and get rid of it to second or third to throw out the runners. Hopefully that resolves the questions about my catcher comment.
I find it hard to believe that 8 yr old coach pitch kids are better hitters at 9 yrs old than kids who hit machine pitch. I've yet to see a single coach throw with any velocity to their kids. It's like tossing darts. They get up there about 35 ft away and try to groove it to the spot where the kid swings (high, low, inside). The machine pitch kids see 40 mph pitching all year. It's only logical that they will adapt to 9/10 pitching (normally in 40's) more quickly. The "seeing it out of the hand thing is ****" at age 8. It's much tougher picking the ball up out of the machine anyway.
My first two sons did coach pitch but with my third son (who is 7) we skipped coach pitch. The games are miserable. My youngest played machine pitch last year starting the year at 6 yrs old (turned 7 in May). He adapted to the machine speed after about 4-5 games and hit the rest of the year. He's a much better hitter now. Early last year, I had to lob the ball to him for him to hit it. Now I can fire balls in there and he cracks them. No way he would be doing that now if he played coach pitch last year.
Jon
I find it hard to believe that 8 yr old coach pitch kids are better hitters at 9 yrs old than kids who hit machine pitch. I've yet to see a single coach throw with any velocity to their kids. It's like tossing darts. They get up there about 35 ft away and try to groove it to the spot where the kid swings (high, low, inside). The machine pitch kids see 40 mph pitching all year. It's only logical that they will adapt to 9/10 pitching (normally in 40's) more quickly. The "seeing it out of the hand thing is ****" at age 8. It's much tougher picking the ball up out of the machine anyway.
My first two sons did coach pitch but with my third son (who is 7) we skipped coach pitch. The games are miserable. My youngest played machine pitch last year starting the year at 6 yrs old (turned 7 in May). He adapted to the machine speed after about 4-5 games and hit the rest of the year. He's a much better hitter now. Early last year, I had to lob the ball to him for him to hit it. Now I can fire balls in there and he cracks them. No way he would be doing that now if he played coach pitch last year.
Jon
I didn't curse there so not sure why it was blanked out. I'm not trying to offend anyone.
Jon
Jon
You guys that like coach pitch are kid pitch are only thinking about devolping hitters and pitchers.
I'm thinking about devolping the Defensive skills of the players.
And Machine pitch will do that by giving a consistant pitch over the plate and allowing the batter to put the ball in play.
Which in turn create's action in the field.
I've seen the LL game's with young kid pitch, that are 2 hr.
3 inning game's of walk walk walk.
One coach told his kids not to swing that they would walk and win.
Other coach pulled his kids off the field and just left his pitcher and catcher in. to prove a point to the other coach, to start teaching how to swing and hit instead of walk your way to a win. The EH
I'm thinking about devolping the Defensive skills of the players.
And Machine pitch will do that by giving a consistant pitch over the plate and allowing the batter to put the ball in play.
Which in turn create's action in the field.
I've seen the LL game's with young kid pitch, that are 2 hr.
3 inning game's of walk walk walk.
One coach told his kids not to swing that they would walk and win.
Other coach pulled his kids off the field and just left his pitcher and catcher in. to prove a point to the other coach, to start teaching how to swing and hit instead of walk your way to a win. The EH
quote:You guys that like coach pitch are kid pitch are only thinking about devolping hitters and pitchers. I'm thinking about devolping the Defensive skills of the players.
That's what practice is for. And you're right developing pitchers and hitters is a big part of baseball. Wouldn't you agree?
You guys are missing the point a bit. The topic was coach pitch vs. machine pitch. Kids in the 6-8 yr old range aren't old enough for kid pitch and they're beyond tee ball. So developmental comparisons with kid pitch are not relevant to this discussion.
My view is that at this age the game is more instructional than competitive. So we're trying to develop a love for the game and some basic skills. Personally I think machine pitch serves these purposes better. Others think coach pitch is better.
If you have some relevant experience fire away.
Jon
My view is that at this age the game is more instructional than competitive. So we're trying to develop a love for the game and some basic skills. Personally I think machine pitch serves these purposes better. Others think coach pitch is better.
If you have some relevant experience fire away.
Jon
Callaway;
Yes, I DO
But if you have set through a young kid pitch game you know what i'm talking about.
I just believe in devolping the defense also in real game situations, not just at Practice time.
quote:That's what practice is for. And you're right developing pitchers and hitters is a big part of baseball. Wouldn't you agree?
Yes, I DO
But if you have set through a young kid pitch game you know what i'm talking about.
I just believe in devolping the defense also in real game situations, not just at Practice time.