Coaches secrets

So you're that guy...

Not a 'trick' play by any means but I've seen one high school SS run HARD to second base after every pitch then circle back to his position. Sooner or later they catch a base runner that's napping.

As far as trick plays I don't waste much time with them anymore. I've tried running a few in the past and they usually backfired (and made us look silly).

There are some "trick plays" that can be found in a earlier topic called "classless coach". It is located in the coaches tips forum.

In the "classless coach" forum, the play discussed there is blatantly cheating. I'm talking about situational and trick plays within the rules.

They may be within the rules but that still doesn't make it classy by any means.

Why do you need "trick plays" if you have a talented team?

Trick Plays are for LL !!!

NO TR

Used at all levels. Seen them HS, college, and MLB.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with trick plays as long as they are "ethical". Of course, everyone can define ethical in their own way. For example, in the two situations mentioned in the original post, I don't think there is anything wrong with the first play and I wouldn't even call it a trick play (which I guess is why the poster referred to it as a "situational play"). The second play is out of line in my opinion.

I saw a play that I had never seen before in a local high school game a couple of months back that was interesting. It was late in the game, tied 1-1, the visitors had a runner on first with less than two outs. It was obvious the batter was going to bunt. The team in the field put on the following play:

While the pitcher was in the set position, the second baseman broke towards home as if to try and take away the bunt. Well, as soon as the second baseman cleared the line between the pitcher and first base (and theoretically just as the runner lost sight of the pitchers feet on the rubber) the pitcher wheeled and tried to pick off the runner at first. It didn't work, but I thought it was a great idea.

Yep,the second example is pushing it a bit, I doubt I would use it. But have seen it work.

I saw this yesterday, against my sons team. Very similar situation to what you saw. Man on 2nd, no one holding the runner. Infield yells "BUNT" corners coming in hard, SS cuts to 2nd for the pick, runner was out by a mile.

Man on 3rd and 1st, everyone in the dugout (batting team) yells squeeze- man breaks for 2nd making it easily - bush in my opininion and maybe illegal.

For the sake of the game, just play baseball!

Catch, that play would irritate me. No recruiting of the duggout to assist in any play for any reason. I would say bush on that one too

Here is a play. Runners on 1st and third, runner on first steals, catcher throws down, 2nd baseman crosses and cuts the throw and fires directly to third. There are several variations of this play and very situational.

btw.. Alot of the plays I know have been used against me over the years or I saw in a game watching, I write them down and the situation so I can look out for it or maybe use it some day. I don't put many in for my teams because its hard enough just teaching the basics. Heck, I pull my hair out getting the kids to execute cuttoff plays
properly. Just no time. But I do like the good plays and enjoy learning new ones.

Any others?

TD I like the play at third on the poss. dbl. play ball, a lot of coaches in our league are very aggressive on such a play and instruct their guys to take a big round of third to see if the ball gets thrown away. I don't much care for any play that is gonna disrespect the game such as the pickoff at 2nd you described in the first post.

We had that one used against our 10's by a team that was up 6-0, even though we had told the whole team about it beforehand cause we saw them do it earlier to a team they were going to mercy, nothing but bush IMO. I will not let my players disrespect the game or our organization.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Here is a play. Runners on 1st and third, runner on first steals, catcher throws down, 2nd baseman crosses and cuts the throw and fires directly to third. There are several variations of this play and very situational.

That's not a "play." It's a very basic 1st and 3rd defense. You need to have a few of those.

It does get tougher and tougher to pull off trick plays as the players get older and better.

I will share two trick plays that I know. The first one I had never seen until my son joined his AAU team last summer. The second one I invented when my son played little league.

1.) Our team at bat. Men on 2nd & 3rd, less than 2 outs. It doesn't matter whether the pitcher is winding up or in the stretch. When the pitcher starts his motion the runner on 2nd breaks for 3rd. When the ball leaves the pitchers hand the runner on 3rd breaks for home. Suicide squeeze. The batter bunts the ball to the 3rd baseman. The 3rd baseman, seeing he has no shot at the runner going home, throws to 1st base. The runner on 2nd, because he left early, has rounded 3rd and when the 3rd baseman throws to 1st base, he continues home. Two runs on 1 sac bunt. We pulled this play off multiple times against very good teams. But it must work the first time you try it. A foul ball by the batter will give the defense time to adjust.

2.) This play was my answer to the standard little league play where a kid walks with a runner on 3rd and doesn't stop at 1st but keeps going to 2nd base. I had seen this play done at will and was determined to stop it. When I managed my 8 year old All-Star team I invented this play while driving to work.

So our team is in the field with a runner on 3rd and the batter is about to walk. I give a verbal signal to the infield that tells them what to do if the batter does walk. If the pitcher throws ball four, 3rd baseman and 2nd baseman sprint to the pitchers mound. They form a huddle and put their gloves together. They then sprint back to their positions as the runner gets to 1st base. They keep their hand in their glove and hide whether they have the ball or not.

The 3rd baseman runs straight at the runner on 3rd. The 2nd baseman runs between 1st and 2nd base and stands there waiting for the runner.

Believe it or not, the opportunity to do this play only came up once. We were a very good team so teams didn't try this play against us.

The one time we did it, the base coaches almost grabbed their runners to keep them on the base. The 1st base coach almost blocked the batters path because the kid was told to break for 2nd base. They had no idea where the ball was. When the runners were on the bases, the player with the ball asked for time from the umpire. It worked perfectly. The umpires had no idea where the ball was either. It was like the game suddenly froze.

I know this play seems silly, but this kind of deception is done all the time in football, which is where I got the idea from.

Last month, at a tournament, I ended up running into the player who had been the batter/runner when we did that play. I asked him about it and he remembered it completely, ten years later!

With a youth team why spend time working on "trick plays" when you can be working on basics ?


This is why players get to the HS level without knowing the fundamentals

Fundamentals are fine, but pulling off one of these situational plays can be a huge confidence booster, and worthwile to break practices up once in a while. You need to go over situations anyway, why not put a fun wrinkle or two in ?

The time isnt worth it in my book---we play "BASEBALL"

TR, even if you don't use them, it is good to be aware of them.

Just to be clear TR, I was refering to the "situational" plays like triple described throwing behind the lead runner or the many 1st & 3rd scenarios. Triple has a point that even if you don't use the play it doesn't hurt to be aware of them.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
With a youth team why spend time working on "trick plays" when you can be working on basics ?


This is why players get to the HS level without knowing the fundamentals

TR,

I disagree with your conclusion that your team plays "BASEBALL" but a team whose coach adds trick plays doesn't. I know you are old school but trick plays are often just situation baseball with a wrinkle. And teaching them does not mean the kids will reach HS without their fundamentals.

I do agree that certain trick plays are unethical and I personally would not teach them.

Teaching fundamentals is only part of building a successful baseball team.

You guys and gals can use all the trick plays you want but it still takes time away from teaching the kids fundamentals---kids today do not know how to slide; do not anticipate; do not know how to run the bases; do not know how to shade their eyes with the glove; do not undertstand the basics of the game


You take all the inferences you want from what I post but the fact remains the kids today are not fundamentally sound .

And BTW we are well aware of trick plays and know most of the teams who are known for using them

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
You guys and gals can use all the trick plays you want but it still takes time away from teaching the kids fundamentals---kids today do not know how to slide; do not anticipate; do not know how to run the bases; do not know how to shade their eyes with the glove; do not undertstand the basics of the game


You take all the inferences you want from what I post but the fact remains the kids today are not fundamentally sound .

And BTW we are well aware of trick plays and know most of the teams who are known for using them

and the coaches who use them too. We have played on teams that have tried to fake the overthrow to 2nd. The teams knew what was going on and didn't fall for it. otoh, we won a game when the other team balked in the winning run on a trick "where is the ball" play.

Baseball is a game, and we should have fun. At this point for us (starting 14u, HS summer league under the belt) the object is to play at higher and higher levels. I'd rather my son learn how to play the game with 17 year olds than how to execute a trick play.... JMO though.

I have to agree with TR here. I never had enough time to have everyone stand around to learn a trick play. We had standard checkoffs that should enable a team to defend just about everything and so, we caught a few more groundballs, worked on baserunning (a lost art and even we didnt do it enough), bunt defense, situational defense, pitching, and hitting. I never left a practice thinking that we had everything covered.

One note, we did work on defending a couple of team's known trick plays. For instance one team in our area does do the bunt to 3rd w/runner on second where the runner cuts the corner. So, first our catcher told the plate ump the first time that situation arose what to expect (we expected this to be done before the hitter stepped into the box), we then had our SS prepared to scream as loud as possible when the runner cut the corner. If he screamed, everyone screamed. So much for trick plays.

quote:

Catcher yells "what is the problem a**hole". Pitcher immediatly throws over for the pick on a distracted runner. I

Might work, but you have lost your catcher due to the ejection for profanity.......of which at the youth level I have very little tolerance for from players and 0% percent tolerance from adult coaches....

quote:

Man on 3rd and 1st, everyone in the dugout (batting team) yells squeeze- man breaks for 2nd making it easily - bush in my opininion and maybe illegal.

In Fed.......Definately illegal.....FED has verbal interference....

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

quote:

Catcher yells "what is the problem a**hole". Pitcher immediatly throws over for the pick on a distracted runner. I

Might work, but you have lost your catcher due to the ejection for profanity.......of which at the youth level I have very little tolerance for from players and 0% percent tolerance from adult coaches....

quote:

Man on 3rd and 1st, everyone in the dugout (batting team) yells squeeze- man breaks for 2nd making it easily - bush in my opininion and maybe illegal.

In Fed.......Definately illegal.....FED has verbal interference....

Most state high school associations use FED Rules!

I don't disagree with most of the post here, all are good points.
Tr, you are right, the fundementals are lacking, but thats why we coach. If a coach is spending time on trick plays and neglecting the fundementals he is misguided. Also if a coach is known for trick plays than he is using them too often. I am not known for trick plays because I rarely use them. But I will use them in certain situations.
My teams do pick off a lot of runners on the bases and we have plays for this. Some may say they are standard situation baseball plays, others may think something else. Most of my plays are defensive in nature. Why? (one of the least developed skills of ballplayers 18 on down is baserunning)This is what I like to exploit. It is fairly easy to identify a kid that has no clue on
the bases or a kid that has way overestimated his ability. These are the ones we go after!
The situational plays do take some time to put in,
especially 1st & third as well as the timimg plays between SS & 2nd for the pick at 2nd.
If I use a trick play and can't put in with a mound conference during a game it doesn't get used. In other words, we don't practice "trick" plays.

You guys remember this
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1600629

I wonder if the marlins KNEW if the third base runner had a tendency to take an early lead????

CB25- That cut corner play is cheating and has no place in baseball. I have never seen it, only heard about it here on hsbbw.

Here is a play that happened to me with a 13u team. It was the first time I had seen it, havn't seen it since, and probably won't again.
I have a man on third, pitcher pitches a ball in the dirt, catcher smothers it and tucks it under his chest protector, catcher stands up looking for the ball, pitcher is running in and pointing to the back of the backstop, catcher turning around and yelling "WHERE WHERE", pitcher still coming in pointing and yelling "BACKTHERE". My runner takes for home and gets tagged out. I was very mad at my
third base coach,letting a kid go without site of the ball. I made him buy my cold ones after the game
where I ribbed him relentlessly.

I wonder if that play is even legal??

quote:

Most state high school associations use FED Rules!

so true.....although many summer/travel leagues do not.....

when I coach I had a trick I used. Fungo in hand hit as many balls to my infielders as possible. The same with the of. Worked well

Will

I see you have completely embraced the spirit of this thread!

Maybe some are not on board with the trick plays because they feel thats the best way to prepare their kids for the next level?

Just my opinion, I dont see the point in spending a lot of time teaching a kid something at the High School level that he wont be able to apply at the College Level. In my area even in Park League Ball you see a lot of trick plays (CF creeping in to take a pick-off throw at second etc..)

I realize the difference between High School/College/Minor Leagues/Professional is that players are reaction-driven.

At the High School level some kids will get on base and they will fall "asleep at the wheel"

I understand why coaches (myself included)will put an emphasis on being aggressive on the bases since you have a lot of catchers and outfielders at the H.S. level that CANT throw.

But if you are preparing kids who have potential to play college ball there comes a time to get away from the Park League habits. At college games you do not see a lot of teams wasting time with trick plays, excessive throws and pickoff attempts, so I say lets start growing the players out of that.

One thing I hate more than anything is fielders wasting a lot of time throwing behind runners that are already safe, or trying to catch baserunners napping that have moved 5 feet past the base with a semi-aggressive turn. Get the ball back to the cutoff man and run the ball towards the play, if there is no play get the ball back to the pitcher and freeze the runner.

The more you throw, the more likely you are to throw it away.

Thoughts?

I have worked camps and clinics for years. sometimes you have to improvise due to weather etc. Many times I just have them sit and ask baseball questions. Rule stuff. I usually start with the infield fly rule. You wuld be amazed what I get. but they probably know a trick play!!!!

Scribe
Very good post. And all true.

This thread is about trick plays and situational plays. This thread is not about a coaches philisophical approach to using them are not. Although it appears to be migrating that way.
I doubt many coaches worth their salt spend much time on "trick" plays. I certainly do not! I have seen some bizarre stuff over the years and I ask what you guys have seen or used. Especially your situational plays.
This thread was started for fun, however the high priests' of baseball keep popping in with their sanitary condemnation's. Not what I was looking for.

I think we can all agree that PLAYING BASEBALL to its core, hustling, properly fielding the ball, knowing the situation, pitching mechanics, hitting mechanics. etc.. are what its all about.

Now back to the original post. What have you seen or used?? Trick or situational?????

Will,
Funny you mention the infield fly rule. My players, 8 to 16 understand it well. Why?, because I have a play for it! It is as simple as the sun shines, but I have recorded many outs with it. Bad thing about it is... the infield fly rule is not very well understood by the parents in the stands and often times they come unglued. I just smile!

In the book "Men at Work" Orel Hershiser talks about the trick plays the Dodgers used. Tony LaRussa talked about his trick plays as well.

I have a great series of books by Donald Honig that were follow ups to "The Glory of their Times". One of the books in the series is titled "The Man in the Dugout". About a dozen managers were interviewed and they all had trick plays they tried.

In the 1972 world Series the A's pulled the old, pretend to intentionally walk him and then strike him out play. They pulled it on Johnny Bench. The count was 3-2 when the A's manager, Dick Williams, made a big theatrical scene about putting Bench on 1st base. The catcher was in the intentional pitch position but at the last second he dropped back down behind home plate. Bench was completely fooled. Considering the A's won the World Series two years in a row under Williams, I would say he found the time to teach fundamentals and have a trick play up his sleeve as well.

In a recent World Series, not sure which one, Orel Hershiser was on the mound. He had a runner on 2nd base. After a pitch he circled the mound and whipped the ball into his glove to fire himself up. After doing that a couple of times he then pretended to do it but instead threw a lob ball towards 2nd base as the runner was several feet off the bag. It would have worked but slow motion replay showed that the 3rd base coach saw it and screamed at the runner on 2nd base who got back to the bag just in time.

When Pedro Martinez was pitching in the 9th inning and throwing a no-hitter, the batter got in the box, then called time, then got in the box, then called time to tie his shoelace. Pedro smiled at him and shook his head as if to say, Forget it, that stuff is not gonna help you.

Honestly, I don't want to hear from anyone here who is on their high horse about the waste of time trick plays are. They are everywhere baseball is and there isn't a coach out there who hasn't seen one.

In trying to keep with this thread, I will throw in some more trick plays that I have seen and/or used over the years.

First some unethical ones that I have actually seen used. It seems like the younger the kids are, the more unethical the coaching can be. Some plays that we describe as trick plays are really just cheating. No trick to it at all.

1.) Coach needs a baserunner. Calls the on deck batter into the dugout and rubs a baseball on the kids elbow until there is a red mark. When the kid is at the plate he pretends an inside pitch hit him and shows the umpire the mark as proof. Similarities to this one are used at all levels of baseball as players try to have loose fitting uniforms to work their way on base any way they can.

2.) Runners on 1st and 3rd and less than 2 outs. Batter hits fly ball but not deep enough to score the runner from 3rd. The batter gets to 1st base just as the ball is being caught. When the catch is made he sprints for 2nd base. The goal of this play is to entice the fielder who caught the ball to throw it to 2nd base, allowing the runner on 3rd base to score. The trick to this play is that the runner on 1st base is still there and is not at risk. The batter is already out when he sprints for 2nd base and cannot be put out again.

3.) This play is the lowest of the low and people still don't beleive me when I tell it to them. Runner slides safely into 3rd base and the play should be over as the 3rd baseman has the ball. The 3rd base coach in a menacing way says to the 3rd baseman, "What did you do to that ball? Let me see it." When the 3rd baseman tosses the ball to the coach he sends his runner home. This play was actually done in a freshman H.S. game.

A trick play that I used in Little League was designed to entice a slower runner to try to steal. I would verbally call out the play and the pitcher would throw a pitch in the dirt. The catcher would know this and get a great jump on the ball. This play worked many times with runners trying to advance to 3rd base. Of course, I had an exeptionally quick catcher with a very accurate arm.

The whole point of trick plays is to gain some kind of an advantage, hopefully legally, for your team.

One more thing, football requires a ton of practice to get 11 men working together well enough to make a play work. Yet Pro Football coaches still find time to put in trick plays so they will have an advantage at a critical time in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Dear old Dad:


Honestly, I don't want to hear from anyone here who is on their high horse about the waste of time trick plays are. They are everywhere baseball is and there isn't a coach out there who hasn't seen one.

Since I'm one of those posters you refer to who disregard the need for trick plays in lieu of more work on hitting, fielding, baserunning etc. I'd like to suggest to you that my position has nothing to do with a "high horse." It comes from coaching (head coach and assistant)in 600+ wins and 200+ losses, winning a couple of state championships, coaching a team that went 40-0, coaching the #1 high school team in America, coaching a team that once won 64 games in a row, coaching baseball at the international level including coaching in both Lithuiana and the former Soviet Union, coaching...

NOW THAT'S A HIGH HORSE IF YOU WANT TO SEE ONE.

In a discussion forum, statements such as "I don't want to hear..." are rude and discourteous. Disagree all you want. However, we all have a right to give our opinions for all to view.

Darrell Butler
Moderator

COACHB, MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD!

Seriously, Coach I respect your opinion, and your accomplishments as a coach are impressive!

Let's get back on track!

Plays Plays Plays

btw Coach, I bet you have some really good situational plays you could share. Don't be stingy!!

TripleDad, I bet your Dad can beat me up!!! I hate doing the resume bit. However, I took the "high horse" statement personal. I know you're not going to believe this but in 20+ years of coaching baseball I don't have a trick play other than the standard 1st and 3rd situations both offensively and defensively. We worked on situations and put pressure on our pitching staff and infielders to make them aware of what we knew others did or sometimes just to prepare for the unknown. Offensivley, we've never had to resort to tricks. I've been fortunate to always have speed and very talented offensive players. Therefore, if someone "stole a run," most of the time they were still far behind. We did prepare for the unknown. For example during a scrimage or situation practice, I might tell our secondbaseman that if the other team got a runner on, he's going to...and I want you to... Therefore, the pitcher would have to adjust to the unknown for him. I really don't know how I would have fit any of the other into our practices. Simply not my cup of tea. JMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:


In a discussion forum, statements such as "I don't want to hear..." are rude and discourteous. Disagree all you want. However, we all have a right to give our opinions for all to view.

Darrell Butler
Moderator

CoachB25,

This thread was started in an attempt to hear about some trick plays. You and some other posters had nothing to offer yet felt compelled to hijack this thread to promote your own personal coaching philosophy. Is that rude or discourteous?

I reread all the posts and there are some subtle and not so subtle insults aimed at any coach who uses trick plays. From the start of this thread, TripleDad was put on the defensive when all he wanted was some friendly input on trick plays.

So, I stand by my earlier statement, I do not want a lecture on the do's and don'ts of coaching in this thread. If I did, I would start a thread asking for advice.

Coach, the high horse comment was probably in response to posters insenuating those of us that do use plays are either unethical, disrespecting the game, or just bad coaches.
Some plays mentioned here ARE unethical & dirty. I doubt any coaches here would use them. But I enjoy hearing about them (The ball play to the third base coach made me laugh)I could see that working, but dirty, dirty, dirty!!!

Your way of coaching has brought you success and so has mine, but it is not because of trick plays, I can assure you that! Anyhow, I will use them occasional and I am not dirty, unethical, nor do I, or will I, disrespect the game I love. Those of us that tend to use them probably coach a lot of the young ones. I personally, bounce from 14u to 9u
and in between every year. There are a lot of weaknesses to exploit with the young ones and this can be done with situationals. btw.. their weaknesses usually evolve from their coach.

Odd thing, this year was my oldest boys first year varsity. I saw more trick plays attempted this high school season than in the last 3 combined with the young ones. I have not coached HS but I doubt I would use trick plays, I might, but I doubt it.

Now on with the thread.. Plays Plays Plays