coaching behavior

It is lousy coaching at any level... Verbal abuse of this nature never works - and just increases the tension level, increasing the probability that the same mistakes will occur again.

I would like to think that the AD would warn and then terminate this individual if the behavior is not corrected.

Give the guy some time to mature as a coach and person. He is 28 years old for goodness sake. Bet he's not coaching for the $$$. Do you think any of the players on the team have never heard that word, or perhaps spoken it themselves? I'm 39 years old now. I don't use profanity in front of my 17-18 year old players. I know for a fact that I did when I was 25, 26, 27, etc... Took me a while to figure out what was appropriate and what wasn't.

08Dad...you said that this is lousy coaching at any level. Find me a coach in college, putting food on the table for wife and baby, who doesn't go off once in a while when he is frustrated. I'll bet you couldn't! My coach was a real bible thumper. Made us go to church on Sunday, no beard or facial hair of any type, never heard him curse...until we lost in the Regional finals back in '86. He used the dreaded F... word. We knew he was frustrated. It didn't kill us.

If you are that concerned, perhaps you could talk to him in private about it? Don't embarrass him. Simply ask if he realizes he used the F... word in front of the kids. He may get defensive, he may not. But he'll think about it before he utters that word again...I guarantee you that!

map...Coaches are people, too. They just hired the guy, for gosh sakes, give him a chance.

It's not like your son and his teammates have never heard the word/words before. Maybe the talent level is poor and the kids do SUC.! What then?

Coach is just frustrated. No big thing. He might have had a fight with his girlfriend (or to be politically correct...his boyfriend). Lots of variables.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...heard that somewhere before.

If you're a "holier than thou" type, I would complain. For the rest of us..."ain't no big thang!"

If the coach's style offends you don't attend his practices, you're not playing, your son is.

Secondly, his vulgarity is not the problem, but for me what is a serious problem is the fact that he still identifies with his last team...and is throwing this up to his players to put them down, and make them feel bad about themselves.

This is very bad for player morale.

This coach will never have a winning program until he understands that his job is to teach skills, not talent. Screaming at a team about their skills is a direct reflection on him, not them.

I would fire this coach for the offense of trying to discourage and demoralize these young men who are volunteering their time to represent the local HS. He shows a complete lack of understanding of what his function is.

I would not say anything to him about his dirty mouth...that's not going to melt anyone. But trying to kill a kids spirit by screaming at him and telling him he is not worth bothering with is a firing offense to my way of thinking.

JMO

I've coached several years now. I let the F bomb fly once. I regret it. I went to the kid first and apologized. I went to his parents and told them and then apologized. I simply don't think there is a place for it. It isn't only the cursing that is bad, it's the lack of self discipline. BTW, I didn't yell this. I went to the kid and said you're too F...ing good to let yourself down like this. Then I was shocked I said what I said. I am a yeller and screamer. I've posted that. I'm also a pat on the back and great job person. I posted sever times I give them a hug and a kick in the butt. You have to have both. This sounds to me like this new coach is frustrated. He needs to realize that he now needs to coach. If a kid is missing balls then coach them. You can't condemn a player until you have told them, shown them, and let them try to be succesful. JMHO! Maturity is also something that comes with time. One last thing, when you are a new coach, you feel so much pressure. If you don't succeed, you could be out the door as fast as you came in. You have jeapordized your future by making a change in schools. You learn that you didn't realize there was so much you didn't know about the administration of a team. At time, it is very overwhelming. Hope this works out well for all involved.

In a perfect world, a coach is an authoritative role model.

Initially, all communication betweem coach and player should be an all-knowing entity (parent) speaking to a know less entity (child).

The goal of the high school coach is to change this communication level to one where he is speaking to a knowledgeable, teachable, understanding entity (adult - adult).

The rationale for this is that the coach is not only imparting his knowledge of the sport, but also imparting how an adult speaks and acts. (Character building)

Using profanity may have shock value, but it teaches the players that this is an acceptable form of communication.

Again in a perfect world, a coach may have to tear down in order to build up. Some players are of the opinion that they know all while in their teens (imagine that).

A good coach should never have to repeat himself as it pertains to the play of the sport. If he does, there is apparently no communication taking place.

Lastly, if a coach has chosen an entire team as his players who have no natural ability for that sport, he is not a good coach.

08 Dad

Verbal Abuse.What does that mean. Believe me I do not condone what was said. What some might consider verbal abuse is not by others. during my coaching tenure I was never one to gloss over mistakes made by my players. I was not just going to tell them they were great and dont worry about it. Yes I went off on them. But you have to pick your spots. If you do it every day it is meaningless. I once broke a fungo bat in half. Is that abusive. Who knows today they might have locked me up.

Look we all understand that coaching is not about singing cumb-by-ya with your players. And yes there are human emotions envolved here tht can manifest a severe expression of temper release (tantrum), and that is understandable.

But what cannot be countenanced is a coach that shows a complete lack of understanding of how to motivate an individual to excellence. That is his function. If he cannot do that effectively, then he is useless to his team. We see so much of this kind of thing hapeening at all levels of teaching an it just devastates the programs.

Here in California we have a system that rewards those who have earned no right to teach anything at any level. Last week we had an expose written in the local newspaper of the educational system here that gives to adminsitrators free housing of over $1 Million mansions with combined $I Million compensation packages. They don't teach a thing, and their total staffs are a boon-doggle expenditure to the tax-payers. Yet the majority of voters just voted to keep this system intact. It becomes a mindset when you allow non-teachers to destroy your education programs. The result is California now suffers from the highest cost per pupil and the lowest performance per student.

That is what can happen when you keep a coach that doesn't understand the purpose and the methods of how to teach and motivate. It destroys the team and ultimately the programs.

Uh, Ramrod, regardless of the rest of what you posted, what you wrote about California schools is gibberish. The only people living in "$1 Million mansions" are the Chancellors of the University who live in the traditional on-campus residence, ans the President of the University System. California's per-pupil educational spending is below the national average. I'm not sure what (if any) point you were trying to make, but the "factoids" you chose to illustrate it are bogus.

P-Dog

The factoids based upon the SF Chronicle article I can only assume they are factual. But who knows the newspapers now are nothing more then Democrat Party shills.

The point I was making is the mindset that people are reluctant to do anything to change a course they know is bogus and they would rather go down with the sinking Titanic then do something, even when one knows that what is being done is "bogus".

When you know you have an inexperienced coach you either train him and/or keep a tight rein on him until he shows that he has a good understanding of his function, or you dump him.

But you don't let the team and the program go down the tubes.

His vocabulary tells players the word is OK on the field. Wait till his middle of the order hitter lets an F bomb fly at the plate with two on, two out and down a run. The batter will miss the rest of that game and the next two, in most states. Bad example for the players.

I must say, there are things far worse. I have never been around a team of any kind in any sport where I did not hear it a lot. Most of the teams were very good and some of the worst offenders were among the best coaches I have ever seen.

If you don't like the word, tell your son to ignore it and not to use it. Sometimes, however, it can very effectively either motivate or convey a clear message.

Agree jemaz......don't think son ever had a coach who didn't break bats, or yell, scream...and use the word. The comparisons to his former team is probably not a good thing......but think that the coach and team will probably work it out....with time.....

My use of the term verbal abuse was sloppy - and probably left the wrong impression. While I don't like the f-bomb coming from a coach, everyone can slip once in a while.

What concerns me about this situation is the recurring nature of the coach losing his temper - and when he does it is in the context of you guys are not as good as the team I used to coach. I don't think that is a productive technique. He needs to talk in terms of this team - and how they are not improving - or not as good as they were last week - or not concentrating - rather than comparing them to a rival team. He is opening the door for the kids to wonder whose side he is on - the rivals or theirs.

08Dad:

Your last post makes alot of sense. Absolutely no focus on progress or the positive. Both are important in my opinion. Does this coach have a clue as to the real capabilities of his current team...as opposed to his former team? He can not live in the past...he must live and coach in the present.

Ramrod was correct in stating "But you don't let the team and the program go down the tubes." Perhaps this coach was not a good choice for your program...fortunately, or even unfortunately, only time will tell...let's hope it all works out for the best!

This guy lost his ccool, I guess:

5/30/04
Panama City News Journal

Attorney: Mosley player’s family to file suit
By Jason Shoot
News Herald Writer
747-5069 / jshoot@pcnh.com

LYNN HAVEN - The attorney representing a former Mosley High School baseball player whose face allegedly was fractured by a line drive hit by his coach, said Monday his client’s family intends to file a lawsuit against the Bay County School Board next month.

In a notice of intent to sue addressed to Bay District Schools Superintendent James McCalister, attorney Chris Keith detailed an incident in February 2003 in which he accused Mosley head coach Doug Lee of batting a ball at a group of pitchers on the mound during practice.

The ball struck junior Brandon Schafer in the face, the notice said, resulting in "multiple" fractures of the orbital maxillary bone near his left eye.

Schafer’s injury "required facial reconstructive plastic surgery necessitating the implanting of two titanium plates and screws in the left side of his face," the notice said. "His injuries are permanent and severe."

The notice, which was dated Dec. 17, 2003, proposes the School Board settle a claim for $275,000. Keith said Monday that Florida law requires the notice, and added that his client could proceed with a lawsuit six months after the notice was issued. Keith said that is exactly what Schafer’s family intends to do.

"By my calculations, we can file a lawsuit next month," Keith said Monday, noting that Lee is not named as a defendant in the pending lawsuit but may be added in the future.
"To my knowledge, there has been no lawsuit filed," Bay District Schools attorney Franklin Harrison said Monday. "We certainly have not been served with any lawsuit."

Lee resigned as head coach of Mosley last Wednesday after guiding the Dolphins to a 137-52 record over six years and a Class 5A state championship in 2002. A former umpire in the Atlantic Coast Conference, Lee declared his intention to return to umpiring, possibly pursue a master’s degree in school administration and spend more time with his wife, Kim.

On Monday, Lee refused to comment on the accusations made in the notice of intent to sue, forwarding all media inquiries to Harrison. Lee did reiterate, however, that he resigned on his own accord.

"I stepped down the other day on my own," Lee said. "Not because of this lawsuit."
A school official said Monday that Mosley Principal Bill Husfelt is out of the office attending a seminar this week and unavailable for comment. Messages left at the home of Mosley Athletic Director Tim Jennings on Monday afternoon were not returned.

Schafer, an 18-year-old who graduated from Mosley on May 14, was able to compete on the school’s golf team last fall, but the notice said his injuries prevented him from returning to baseball.
The notice alleges that Schafer suffered fractures of the orbital maxillary bone near his left eye as a result of a baseball hit by Lee during a fielding drill on Feb. 4, 2003.

Mosley pitchers were gathered around the pitcher’s mound taking part in the drill, and the notice contends Lee was upset with another player for a below-average throw to home plate.

"In a fit of anger and rage," the notice read, "Mr. Lee threw up the ball he was holding in his hand, swung the fungo bat backwards with all of his force, and hit a line drive ball directly at the group of players standing on the pitcher’s mound. (The other player) saw the ball coming and quickly darted out of the way. Brandon, however, was not as lucky.

"… The impact knocked Brandon to the ground, and blood began to immediately pour from Brandon’s nose. Brandon laid bleeding on the ground for several minutes before Mr. Lee and other players were able to assist him to the clubhouse."

The notice said Schafer’s face was reconstructed using bone grafts, two titanium plates and several screws during a two-hour surgery one week after the incident.


Keith said Monday that the settlement figure proposed in the notice was a procedural step and "not necessarily the damage we’re claiming in the case. … We just want what’s fair for Brandon. The kid has suffered serious, permanent injuries, and we want what’s fair to him."

© The News Herald

.
RamRod...

quote:

...a serious problem is the fact that he still identifies with his last team...

quote:

...his job is to teach skills, not talent.

Dad04:

"This guy lost his cool I guess"...and Brandon lost his baseball career.

quote:

A former umpire in the Atlantic Coast Conference, Lee declared his intention to return to umpiring

And more scary for me is this quote.....just what we umpires need.......and at the D1 level to boot.

piaa

Y'all wear those big scary clunky shoes too.

How can a coach work with his players out of season.
At least in my state that violates the rules and could lead to forfieture of the season.

Let me first start by saying that while I do not condone that type of behavior from a coach I understand that it happens. I have even done it myself when I was first getting started. Try to lisiten to the message and not how the message is delivered. Why did you hire a new coach? Was it because you were a bad team and needed someone to add structure, work ethic and discipline to the program? Baseball is a tough "Blue Collar" sport that requires thick skin form it's players. Have you ever heard how the "Blue Collar" workers in a PA Steel Mill or coal mine speak to one another?

Look at it this way:
1. The coach is young and probably in his first head coaching position.
2. He is just frustrated
3. When coaches have kids of their own they become better coaches. They understand how to deal with kids and other parents much better.
Give the man some type and he will mature along with the kids and my guess is he will be a fine coach.

It is absurd to excuse this coach because he's "only 28". Give ME a break. We send kids to die in Iraq at 18. Is 28 "too young" to have a clue about civilized behavior?
Classroom tachers enter the classroom at age 22. Would they be excused for saying "you little ****er, get your god**** homework in on time!!" I don't think so. This coach is a loser.

This coach obviously made a mistake. We've all made mistakes. However, if his attitude continues or worsens then he will suffer negative consequences (and so might his players).

He needs to change his focus immediately. His first goal should be to simply help his players to IMPROVE - his team may not be able to challenge for the conference championship this year. But any coach who is competitive wants to see IMPROVEMENT. Winning some games will eventually follow if his players IMPROVE. And that's coaching - getting a little bit more out of everyone. Coaching ALL the players on the team to improve. If a coach can't do that then he's really not a good coach.

The coach needs to set down some ATTAINABLE team goals that will still stretch his team a bit. For example, maybe winning half their games would be an excellent team goal. Also, he could set up a training regime that measures each player's 60-yd times, shuttle times, etc... That will help each player attain some individual goals and will show individual improvement (if training is done consistently this should occur).

I applaud the coach's efforts in putting in the extra time with his players (good start)!! He just needs to "tweak" some things a bit. Then it can become a win-win situation for both player and coach.... Even if his players don't really have the skills to compete against the best - they can always IMPROVE (the true characteristic of a well coached team).

If the coach doesn't have the patience to help his high school players then he shouldn't be coaching high school players. If the coach is not able to get players to improve then he should be replaced with someone who can.

IMO - give the guy a break, he sounds more old school &
3 times in 60 days? is hardly something to get worked up about

he's probably exploring what motivates different guys & there is prolly also a "good guy" assistant coach hugging the kids too

from your location - consider he may have been influnced by a "great" Dad who came home from his shift at the mill (or mines) each day to ask if he wanted to play some F'ing catch
needed some help with his F'ing homework
and asked him to pass the F'ing potatoes at dinner

count yourself fortunate you have someone who cares


.

Just because these boys have heard profanity before does not make it acceptable for a coach to utilize it...a coach is someone who leads by example and once you lower yourself to that level you are not leading...by swearing you lack "class" and that is what has gone wrong with our society...we tolerate it in music, in movies and now we are supposed to tolerate it from coaches...what next... should teachers start swearing in order to gain the attention of their students..or should I as a nurse walk into a room a say to a patient...roll over I have your D... shot...it would not be tolerated so why should I, as a parent, find it acceptable that just because coach is having a bad day, or the kids do not do as he has instructed or some other minute incident has arisen that he should be allowed to spew profanity...where does the line get drawn...I certainly am not pure in my language choices at times but I would never, ever resort to profanity in front of children...it is not necessary...as far as his constant reference to his former team...someone needs to tell him that if they were so much better perhaps he should return there

quote:

by c-mom: should I as a nurse walk into a room a say to a patient...roll over I have your D... shot...

ps - a friend is a cardiac surgury nurse & that coach would be considered a "lightweight" in her O.R.

and vocabulary is just vocabulary - it doesn't indicate anything about the "class" of a person




.

bee..perhaps, but the patient is under anesthesia and not cognizant of her foul mouth and it is still unacceptable...and yes a gutter mouth indicates just how much a person respects himself as well as you....lots of class there...just like all things there is a time and place and if you want to swear with the "boys" go for it but leave it for then not in front of the kids..it is not a proper example to set...and BTW I knew once I made this post all kinds of ramifications would ensue...I stand by my original post

quote:

and vocabulary is just vocabulary - it doesn't indicate anything about the "class" of a person

I guess I could not disagree with you more on this issue......certainly knowing and using words that are acceptable in business and social situations are a mark of class........

I might have agreed had you entered in words like Money, social status, race, color.......but profanity in general use speaks volumes about a persons class and respect for others....

And as an aside, as a umpire in Western Pennsylvania, many of the coaches who I see every year are coal miners and steel workers in their everyday lives....... I have rarely heard language from them of that nature........They have too much class for that.....

Just my $.02

c-mom, the vocab is the surgeon's, & it is NOT at all uncommon for them

by piaa: "I have rarely heard language from them of that nature"

piaa, do you attend their practices?

also, your statement suggests that you DO occasionally hear it - I might also suggest that 3 times in 60 days by the coach in question would fit "rarely"

2 cents back at ya



.

A embarassment to the coaching profession, plain and simple. Any coach that feels they need to swear on a regular basis does it for three reasons:
1- they aren't smart enough to convey their thoughts in another way
2- they are insecure and looking to blame the players for their own incompetence
3- they have no class, and therefore don't deserve to coach young people.
I have swore at my players a few times (handful) in 9 years...and I assure you that they know EXACTLY what I am talking about and the passion that I have for the game.
You must, as a coach, show what you want...and if you want your players to carry themselves with class, you'd better exhibit that behavior from the coaches' box as well.

Bee,

On this issue, I guess we will have to "agree to disagree"......and I'm fine with that. but I will answer your questions..

No, I don't attend practices.

And yes, I have occasionally heard language of that type... and on each occasion I have ejected the coach for it. And more times than not the coach comes up after the game, embarrased at this lack of control, and apologizes to the team......

quote:

by coach knignt: A embarassment to the coaching profession, plain and simple.

coach, with all due respect you're living in a bubble

and I think the "other" coach knight would agree with me there

also, if that is a criteria of college selection for your guys, you just shot the hell out the list

jmo

piaa, might you agree that a coach's practice demeanor & etiquete is often (always) different from game behavior? unless one slips

heck, even the PGA & NASCAR guys let slip occasionaly


.

I stand with catchermom03 on this one.

None of us can claim to be perfect, but we need to set the standards high and always be striving to better ourselves. Those in positions of authority with kids need to be held to the highest of standards. Baseball is very important to these kids and the examples they take home from games/practices probably carry more weight in their lives than the classroom. What a great opportunity the steer kids in the right direction!

What kind of language is used in the dugout, at practice, or outside practice when the "fair mouthed" coach is not around. You'd be surprised how many sailors there are, both guys and girls.

I've been accused often of questionable language. However, I will only use it in a grammatically correct form and not directed to an individual in an obscene manner. Sometimes in order to get your point across you cannot rely only on "pc" words or inflection, you have to use the dialect of the people you are addressing.

How many times when the kids were real small you have said, or have heard someone say something like. "That Bobby is so cute, but he can be such a little shiit at times". Where do you draw your line on language? I don't think I want my son thought of as animal waste, but, he may be a little shiit at times. A word is only a word, it's interpretation is defined by the user, at that time of use.

As far as this coach is concerned. He came from a successful program and sounds like he is trying to instill an attitude in the way he understands. My interest now is to find out if he is getting that point across, seeing results, and at the same time has the respect of his players.

Many coaches in all HS sports close thier practices because parents do not understand what it takes in a testosorone filled gym to get a point across. It's great if some coaches can do that without a foul word being said. However, I really believe from coaching and knowing hundreds of HS school athletes that none have picked up a foul mouth because of me.

Just my thoughts here. This is a new head coach that is venturing into this realm for the first time. Would I use this type of coaching, absolutely not. But, I would encourage you to give it some time and re-evaluate things after the season. He may be trying to use an little shock value to get the players attention and to move them in the direction he wants to take the program. This may (and hopefully will)settle down as the season gets under way. If things do not change and you are still bothered by what has taken place after the season, then talk to the A.D. and express your concerns.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
His vocabulary tells players the word is OK on the field. Wait till his middle of the order hitter lets an F bomb fly at the plate with two on, two out and down a run. The batter will miss the rest of that game and the next two, in most states. Bad example for the players.

True story: My son's HS coach and assistant used this word often. One time the assistant went to the mound to talk to the pitcher - coach told the pitcher to get the f-ing ball over the f-ing plate. The pitcher looked at him and told him to get off his f-ing mound

It is a bad example for the players. And the coaches in this case got a dose of that disrespect right back at them. I don't condone this in the least, but did have to snicker silently that they got what they deserved.

TopDog,

If that assistant coach came out and said "Get the ball over the plate" would the player have then said, "Get off my mound"?

I guess my interpretation of getting the point across is probably not shared by others. A coach telling me to get the freakin ball over the freakin plate would have a more profound emotional affect on me than a coach telling me to just throw strikes and leaving it at that. Language that is packed with emotion can go a long way. There are no virgin ears on the field.

What about the college coach and his language. Are there a new set of rules here? How about at the professional level.

I've sat next to both HS and college dugouts and the vocabulary we talk about here is shared player to player in those dugouts all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
TopDog,

If that assistant coach came out and said "Get the ball over the plate" would the player have then said, "Get off my mound"?
...
Language that is packed with emotion can go a long way. There are no virgin ears on the field.

I was relaying an experience where the coaching staff consistently used f-bombs. I doubt seriously if the player would have replied the way he did without the initial (and continuous) profanity. Emotion can be expressed in this situation without using that f-ing word