I don't think anyone thinks that using vulgar language is okay. But we have all heard it and we know that it is used. That is not a firing offense IMO.
What cannot be allowed is the demoralization of the players by a constant barrage of negative references to their skills and talents.
IMO the firing offense to me is the comparison of throwing it in their faces how great his previous team was and what a bunch of losers his current team is. What the hey is he doing there if he feels that way. That's what would cross my mind if I was in the stands listening to that.
When you take on the responsibility of a team, as head coach, you are the the principal person responsible for motivating your team whether you like it or not.
You do this first by showing these young men "respect" and that means you do not disabuse them of whatever pride they may have in themselves.
You watch the players in specific drills you set up to test their skills and evaluate where they are at on the skills chart that you prepare for each player. Then you set goals for each one to help him identify where his weaknesses are and where you see his strengths. That is the base line against you work to achieve a level of achievement over some projected timeframe.
Any other method of coaching is not teaching...it is flying by the seat of your pants and there will never be any improvement for any of them.
I coached at a Catholic High School so my boys and myself said the rosary in between innings. thought i would lighten things up.
quote:A coach telling me to get the freakin ball over the freakin plate would have a more profound emotional affect on me than a coach telling me to just throw strikes and leaving it at that.
My son's first college win (of 2 so far
) began with 5 straight balls followed by just such a "colorful" one-sided conversation on the mound, one batter into the game. He pitched 8 innings allowing one unearned run.I think one on one is different, and much more affective, than an F bomb laced mass public addressing of the team.
I used to watch the high school team get dragged into center field after a loss, not quite out of earshot, for a twenty minute expletive filled rant and thinking it was a waste of everyones time including the coach, expletives or not.
Like some things in the recruiting process, meat packing and lawmaking, some aspects of coaching are not pretty. That will not change.
I think years ago the kids were tougher and could handle a coach who was a little rough around the edges. I know as a player I had my episodes when I got the "treatment" Yes I got yelled at for whatever reason. and yes on occassion as a coach i let a few of my players have it. Did not have any problems. Today who knows. The climate is different. As a teacher in the classroom I have to practically think about everything I say in correcting a student who does not do his or her work or is slacking off. Say what some think the "wrong" thing and you spend a lot of time explaining yourself.
quote:I doubt seriously if the player would have replied the way he did without the initial (and continuous) profanity.
In that case it seems that the coach lit an emotional fire under the player by using the profanity. Which leads me to the bottom of this topic. The F-Bomb.
I think a lot of us on this site are from the generation that was taught that the f-word was not to be said by anyone. Maybe our parents swore, usually dad only, but never did he use the F-word, and if it did slip, or, was overheard he was very embarrassed. Today, you don't have to go to far out into public without hearing the word used as a noun, verb, adjective or whatever else it could be. But still in many older generation minds it is a taboo word, as defined by our parents.
So I ask. Why now is it ok, to use the word in movies, comedy, personal discussions, arguements, and other forms of communication? Could it be because the word has evolved and taken on different definitions and/or uses. I think so. The english language continiously evolves and sometimes words take on a new meaning. I remember years ago on the the George Carlin 8-track the words that could not be said, it was hilarious, and so true. Today, many people would not understand the humor in it unless the words were changed that reflected todays morality.
I know that if I drop the f-bomb today it sure does not take on the same gusto as it would have 30-40 years ago.
RZ1
I am with you-- it is how the word is used and believe me sometimes certain words get the point across to the kids more than others--also what is said between players and coach in the dugout is,to me anyway, something that stays there. Sometimes you need to speak their language to them
In my mind the "PC" stuff has gone too darn far.
And it is not like the kids have not heard the words before--it is all about how the words/terms are used.
I am with you-- it is how the word is used and believe me sometimes certain words get the point across to the kids more than others--also what is said between players and coach in the dugout is,to me anyway, something that stays there. Sometimes you need to speak their language to them
In my mind the "PC" stuff has gone too darn far.
And it is not like the kids have not heard the words before--it is all about how the words/terms are used.
My son no longer plays baseball because of his High school coach. The coach took all of the fun out of the game and by the end of season my son was telling us that he wasn’t sure if he wanted to complete the season let alone continue baseball. The coach just took the heart out of the team and my son.
Just to give you a little back ground my son was 4 year starter and was 1# in the rotation, played select with for the best teams in Austin, so the kid could play. But when he got to his senior year the new coach just made it so hard for all the boys to enjoy the game that it was evident that they were beaten down and they showed no enthusiasm like in years past.
It was so crazy to see this team that had talent to loss the love of the game.
Well it’s been almost 7 months since the end of my son’s senior baseball seasons. He is a collage freshman and like I said before he made no attempt to play collage ball, he had several offers to play D2 and D3 ball but chose to go to D1 2A for academics. But there may be light at the end of the tunnel. The other day he called me to tell me he had tried out for the club team and had made it for this spring. So if all goes well, maybe he will walk on or get picked up.
Oh by the way, the school noticed about the coach and he is no longer the head coach, he is now the pitching coach with no other responsibility.
Randall
Just to give you a little back ground my son was 4 year starter and was 1# in the rotation, played select with for the best teams in Austin, so the kid could play. But when he got to his senior year the new coach just made it so hard for all the boys to enjoy the game that it was evident that they were beaten down and they showed no enthusiasm like in years past.
It was so crazy to see this team that had talent to loss the love of the game.
Well it’s been almost 7 months since the end of my son’s senior baseball seasons. He is a collage freshman and like I said before he made no attempt to play collage ball, he had several offers to play D2 and D3 ball but chose to go to D1 2A for academics. But there may be light at the end of the tunnel. The other day he called me to tell me he had tried out for the club team and had made it for this spring. So if all goes well, maybe he will walk on or get picked up.
Oh by the way, the school noticed about the coach and he is no longer the head coach, he is now the pitching coach with no other responsibility.
Randall
IMHO: With all due respect, baloney.
The "F bomb" is vulgar and crude, always has been and always will be, and modern relativism won't change that truth, though it will water it down as much as we let it.
I love sports, competition, and all the wonderous things that we derive therefrom, but far too many coaches take it as a given that being a coach is license to use otherwise vulgar language. Personally, I think that if you can't communicate with athletes without profanity-infused tirades, whether they're in Little League or the ACC, you need to step back and listen to yourself. I know words slip out from all of us, more easily so when we're emotionally charged, but accepting a lesser standard of propriety isn't the answer. An occasional word 'slipping" isn't a big deal, but many coaches go light years beyond "slipping".
Being a coach is a privilege, and I have great respect for most that I have known. A couple have had a greater impact on my life than any male alive, except my father. For them, I'd still walk through fire. Unfortunately, there are some that should be an embarrassment to the rest, and they shouldn't have their classlessness excused because they are coaches.
I taught a lesson to my sons a language lesson once at the dinner table, after a not-so-well-received lecture about blue language. I tried to use the "f bomb" in almost everything I said, "Pass the f'ing ham, get me some f'ing tea please, where are the f'ing rolls, etc." I didn't get very far because I couldn't keep a straight face, but they got the point.
Always wrong. Sometimes the circumstances are certainly understandable (ex: opening scene, "Saving Private Ryan"), but good coaches can do better.
The "F bomb" is vulgar and crude, always has been and always will be, and modern relativism won't change that truth, though it will water it down as much as we let it.
I love sports, competition, and all the wonderous things that we derive therefrom, but far too many coaches take it as a given that being a coach is license to use otherwise vulgar language. Personally, I think that if you can't communicate with athletes without profanity-infused tirades, whether they're in Little League or the ACC, you need to step back and listen to yourself. I know words slip out from all of us, more easily so when we're emotionally charged, but accepting a lesser standard of propriety isn't the answer. An occasional word 'slipping" isn't a big deal, but many coaches go light years beyond "slipping".
Being a coach is a privilege, and I have great respect for most that I have known. A couple have had a greater impact on my life than any male alive, except my father. For them, I'd still walk through fire. Unfortunately, there are some that should be an embarrassment to the rest, and they shouldn't have their classlessness excused because they are coaches.
I taught a lesson to my sons a language lesson once at the dinner table, after a not-so-well-received lecture about blue language. I tried to use the "f bomb" in almost everything I said, "Pass the f'ing ham, get me some f'ing tea please, where are the f'ing rolls, etc." I didn't get very far because I couldn't keep a straight face, but they got the point.
Always wrong. Sometimes the circumstances are certainly understandable (ex: opening scene, "Saving Private Ryan"), but good coaches can do better.
I'm not a licensed lip reader but I don't think that there are many college or pro games in any sport that is played without a camera picking up a coach or player in the game or on the sideline that does not let the word slip from their lips.
To each their own as far as they feel about vulgarity and it's use. Personally I find all racially motivated words more sick than profanity.
To each their own as far as they feel about vulgarity and it's use. Personally I find all racially motivated words more sick than profanity.
A very good point rz1.
Can't tell you how many ding **** coaches have dropped the "N" word while in "white" company. It's not specific to AA players either, Latino and Japanese slurs usually emanate from the same lips.
Vulgar language is unfortunate, especially with younger players. Racial B.S. is inexcusable at all levels.
Can't tell you how many ding **** coaches have dropped the "N" word while in "white" company. It's not specific to AA players either, Latino and Japanese slurs usually emanate from the same lips.
Vulgar language is unfortunate, especially with younger players. Racial B.S. is inexcusable at all levels.
Bee-
First off, if THAT Coach Knight is your criteria of what a coach should be, then I guess you and I are on different planets on this one! ha ha He is a phenomenal basketball mind...but he makes a fool of himself regularly, which is why a basketball mecca like Indiana would fire a man that bright and with that many titles to his credit.
Certainly, the college level is a different story. We are talking grown, adult men vs. 15-18 year old boys. I can imagine that my view would change if we were talking college...but this IS the HIGH SCHOOL baseball web, right?
Bottom line, however, is I simply don't think it (profane language) is necessary...and some of the "great" college baseball coaches are good baseball people, but not necessarily respectable role models or even people that are of high intelligence. At the high school level, I guess I just feel that my place as a role model is probably MORE important than the number of trophies I can put in the case...and that I can be a great coach without using bad language.
Maybe I AM in a bubble...too bad more coaches don't join me!
First off, if THAT Coach Knight is your criteria of what a coach should be, then I guess you and I are on different planets on this one! ha ha He is a phenomenal basketball mind...but he makes a fool of himself regularly, which is why a basketball mecca like Indiana would fire a man that bright and with that many titles to his credit.
Certainly, the college level is a different story. We are talking grown, adult men vs. 15-18 year old boys. I can imagine that my view would change if we were talking college...but this IS the HIGH SCHOOL baseball web, right?
Bottom line, however, is I simply don't think it (profane language) is necessary...and some of the "great" college baseball coaches are good baseball people, but not necessarily respectable role models or even people that are of high intelligence. At the high school level, I guess I just feel that my place as a role model is probably MORE important than the number of trophies I can put in the case...and that I can be a great coach without using bad language.
Maybe I AM in a bubble...too bad more coaches don't join me!
SPARE ME....ALL OF YOU "HOLIER THAN THOU" PEOPLE.
Hate to see you in tough situations because you would "cringe" and hide behind mommy's skirt.
Gees...You obviously haven't been around high school football coaches.
What is the big deal?
The guy is a young coach.
Let him make some mistakes.
Hate to see you in tough situations because you would "cringe" and hide behind mommy's skirt.
Gees...You obviously haven't been around high school football coaches.
What is the big deal?
The guy is a young coach.
Let him make some mistakes.
Our son once had a coach like this...would spit this junk out all of the time, over and over. It got old with everyone and wasn't very effective after about 5 such exchanges.
I'm ok with coaches letting loose...they just need to pick their spots and not overuse the tool.
I'm ok with coaches letting loose...they just need to pick their spots and not overuse the tool.
For a new "non-tenured" teacher, making this a habit could be detrimental to being rehired next year. As a "tenured" teacher, I'd get just about one shot in my school district. WAIT, I USED UP THAT ONE SHOT! 
Seriously, if you are an educator, you shouldn't do this. Not holier than thou. Just using common sense. I think we have concentrated a lot on the use of the "word" and not on the comparisons. I doubt that players are inspired, motivated ... when being compared to this coach's former team. I would think that resentment would set in fast. JMHO!
Seriously, if you are an educator, you shouldn't do this. Not holier than thou. Just using common sense. I think we have concentrated a lot on the use of the "word" and not on the comparisons. I doubt that players are inspired, motivated ... when being compared to this coach's former team. I would think that resentment would set in fast. JMHO!quote:Let him make some mistakes.
Unfortunately and based on personal experience there is usually little alternative.
The high school gig is entry level coaching, with lots of first and second year guys. I lowered my expectations each year in high school with the last guy still struggling to meet them. I watched the senior year coach, 25 at the time make boo boo after boo boo until he got suspended after 4 games, while the police investigated him, and fired at the end of the year.
The good coaches stick out like sore thumbs around here. Most of them have a little grey around the temples.
Beenthere
Had a high school coach was called the "Dean of Coaches" because he was a winner with a record of over 325 wins and 158 losses. He was so well respected by his peers and he was sought after for advice by coaches that he was instrumental in helping them to matriculate to the college and pro levels both as players and later in their careers as coaches.
He is deceased now but he is in the Bay Area Hall Of Fame (BASHOF) San Francisco and he was always invited every year to work with the College East-West Shriners Football Teams.
In all the years I knew him and played for him he never used profanity nor did he ever denigrate or insult his teams. It just wasn't his style. He never raised his voice except so we could all here him when he wanted us to excute a certain play or action.
Milt Axt was in my estimation the best example of a coach that any man could ever follow.
The history of Milt's coaching-The Poly, Lowell Rivalry
Had a high school coach was called the "Dean of Coaches" because he was a winner with a record of over 325 wins and 158 losses. He was so well respected by his peers and he was sought after for advice by coaches that he was instrumental in helping them to matriculate to the college and pro levels both as players and later in their careers as coaches.
He is deceased now but he is in the Bay Area Hall Of Fame (BASHOF) San Francisco and he was always invited every year to work with the College East-West Shriners Football Teams.
In all the years I knew him and played for him he never used profanity nor did he ever denigrate or insult his teams. It just wasn't his style. He never raised his voice except so we could all here him when he wanted us to excute a certain play or action.
Milt Axt was in my estimation the best example of a coach that any man could ever follow.
The history of Milt's coaching-The Poly, Lowell Rivalry
Ram....
Understand what you're saying but I would just give the young coach the benefit of the doubt in terms of his coaching future.
WWWWWAAAAAYYYYY too many PERFECT people in the world....NOT!
Understand what you're saying but I would just give the young coach the benefit of the doubt in terms of his coaching future.
WWWWWAAAAAYYYYY too many PERFECT people in the world....NOT!
quote:Originally posted by Randall:
My son no longer plays baseball because of his High school coach. The coach took all of the fun out of the game and by the end of season my son was telling us that he wasn’t sure if he wanted to complete the season let alone continue baseball. The coach just took the heart out of the team and my son.
Just to give you a little back ground my son was 4 year starter and was 1# in the rotation, played select with for the best teams in Austin, so the kid could play. But when he got to his senior year the new coach just made it so hard for all the boys to enjoy the game that it was evident that they were beaten down and they showed no enthusiasm like in years past.
It was so crazy to see this team that had talent to loss the love of the game.
Well it’s been almost 7 months since the end of my son’s senior baseball seasons. He is a collage freshman and like I said before he made no attempt to play collage ball, he had several offers to play D2 and D3 ball but chose to go to D1 2A for academics. But there may be light at the end of the tunnel. The other day he called me to tell me he had tried out for the club team and had made it for this spring. So if all goes well, maybe he will walk on or get picked up.
Oh by the way, the school noticed about the coach and he is no longer the head coach, he is now the pitching coach with no other responsibility.
Randall
Was surfing the Net and found this, and I must reply to one item that is implied here-I resigned the head coaching position and there was NO pressure applied by any one to do so. We started 7 sophomores that year and were 13-14. I could say more, but there is really no need.
Luis Venitucci
Responding to this post after more than 2yrs has to make one wonder if there wasn't some substance behind what was originally posted. A coach has the ultimate say and could indeed make it difficult for his players.
I can't help but think it kinda shows your intelligence level, I'm sure there are a whole lot of other words in the english language that could be used to get the same point across. At the same time am I such a prude that I've never said it, nope! But I can honestly say I've never used it on my players or on the field at any time!
quote:Originally posted by 2Diamonds:
I can't help but think it kinda shows your intelligence level, I'm sure there are a whole lot of other words in the english language that could be used to get the same point across. At the same time am I such a prude that I've never said it, nope! But I can honestly say I've never used it on my players or on the field at any time!
Yea, and it's not like he has a lack of vocabulary.
ESPN runs more Football stuff RIGHT NOW during the day than baseball- it is sad. MLB is not known for its sagacity, so that must be factored into the equation.
Posted by Luis Venitucci at July 9, 2007 10:03 AM
Interesting thread folks: To me the original guy here is what I call a coaching Wus. He's so insecure he has to grab on to past glories he had as a player or coach (this time from a different school) to put down his current players.
Guess what, the kids don't care if you were Ken Griffey Jr. AND Joe Torre... they just want to play some baseball.
As for the language: tell your kid that there's people all over this world making fools of themselves daily; try not to join the club.
Guess what, the kids don't care if you were Ken Griffey Jr. AND Joe Torre... they just want to play some baseball.
As for the language: tell your kid that there's people all over this world making fools of themselves daily; try not to join the club.
I replied because of his insinuation was that I was forced to resign, and relegated to a lesser position. It is the position I held when I became the head coach. His other observations are his opinions and he is entitled to them. I resigned because I thought we should have been in the playoffs that year and we were not. We were District Champs the next two years(06&07). The reason for the time lag is that I only saw this yesterday. THAT insinuation is the only thing to which I am responding.
Luis Venitucci
Luis Venitucci
This guy sounds like he needs to be coaching football instead. That is more of a "go out their and bash some heads" kind of mentality. I don't believe that baseball players respond to the same methods. As far as using the f-bomb, that just is a sign of immaturity. Hopefully this young coach will realize what level of play he is coaching at and adjust his behavior to fit. Obviously he has the passion--he just needs to find the same focus he is expecting out of his 17 year olds. If you guys want a laugh go to "You-tube.com" and type in Arkansas baseball and watch "coach gets ejected again"---talk about loosing your temper! The bottom line is that this coach knows how to win and directs his anger to just umpires---like we all have,at least one time in our lives! sorry Umpires everywhere!
Your kidding right? Oh my gosh, a coach using the F bomb and suggesting his players aren't too good...
That coach was brought in their to change the long time losing mindset. The subtext is that the players are practicing like losers, and have no work ethic. Now you can argue that is not the proper approach to changing the program, but, please don't take the polyanna position that the coach cannot purposefully lose his cool in order to send a wakeup call to his players.
Unless the verbal abuse is directed toward an individual player day after day, my opinion is that parents should stay out of it and let their sons develop into young men without running to Mommy.
That coach was brought in their to change the long time losing mindset. The subtext is that the players are practicing like losers, and have no work ethic. Now you can argue that is not the proper approach to changing the program, but, please don't take the polyanna position that the coach cannot purposefully lose his cool in order to send a wakeup call to his players.
Unless the verbal abuse is directed toward an individual player day after day, my opinion is that parents should stay out of it and let their sons develop into young men without running to Mommy.
I have always found that coaches, parents, teachers,or employers all have their own idiosyncratic methods of communicating. The most successful, however all have honesty, integrity and consistency as constants. The best coach my son ever basically treated words as money,he saved them and used them wisely. The kids knew exactly what he meant without his telling them verbally. Everything was done with a purpose. Incidentally, he was hired by the Chicago Cubs the season after taking a group of u17's. He is now with the Mesa Cubs. Never heard him use profanity. The worst coach I ever had experience with used language all the time mainly to mask his lack of knowledge. He lied about his background and was and is in coaching for all the wrong reasons.