Grateful
You said: Your last post, I assume, is opinion rather than fact, as I speculate that there is research out there that could show us how best to get the desired results (ie. development of decision making skills and leadership skills, development of cohesive teams, theories of discipline in athletics, etc.).
The only facts that I know hold up are those that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt...like death and taxes.
The rest is pretty much open to interpretation and/or opinion.
But we can make some best-questimates of typical anticipated outcomes based upon historical behaviorial studies of human behavior.
In the case of the baseball coach/player relationship we can postulate that at the root of its existence that both are motivated by the love of the game...elsewise we would be talking about plumbing.
So then, what causes the relationship to reach a point that the coach is forced to impose corrective punitive measures against a player who supposedly is in the raltionship because of the love of the game? Hmmm...good question.
Is it that the player didn't understand what was expected of him...maybe. but I don't think so. Baseball requires requires you to show up, be on time, and pay attention. Otherwise at the HS level most everyone knows what's expected of them. So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus.
It is impossible to expect human beings to maintain intense concentration and focus for long periods of time. How do you offset this normal condition of all human beings. Change things up, give different roles to different players beside playing baseball...in other words you must realize that human beings don't stop other interest just because they play baseball...even when they are with the team in practice or in a game.
How do you get them to stay focused, give them a job to do, make that job important to the team and to them by setting the "effort" level.
How do you do that when they are away from the ballpark and you...give them a job to do and set the effort level again. What do I mean, give them a responsibility to the team and themselves to show some improvement in there knowledge on a weekly basis. Give them community level responsibilities to help at a hospital, church, or at the school for fund raising, providing security at local ball games for the football team, running the snack shack forthe athletic department, and things like that.
There are a merriad of things that can be done to offset boredom.
How do you off set boredom at practice...stop talking and make your practices snappy, moving from one drill to the next, section off the field and have at least four drills going on at all times.
And for goodness sake never throw batting practice. That is done by your Group A and Group B batteries.
By teaching players how to set the "effort" as the motivation factor they will learn that self-motivation is about coming to terms with understanding how "effort" is the energizer of commitment. Becoming more task oriented with structure and organization can go a long way to avoiding the negative effects that all humans suffer from when boredom controls their time.
Stop Boredom and control discipline problems!!
PIC- Very intelligent post, as usual...but you are still dealing in fantasy land. Are you telling me that EVERY COACH IN THE COUNTRY that punishes his athletes (read: every coach in the country PERIOD!) is wrong? Seriously? Players will make mistakes, they will break rules, and they will need to be reprimanded. If you think that a coach that DOESN'T have to discipline players is doing it right, you are off....that coach simply didn't set his STANDARDS high enough.
If a program is to be successful, players must be pushed. I heard a great quote onetime:
"A coach's job is to make players do what they don't want to do, so that they can be what they want to be." Very true. In other words, players will push the boundaries, they will at times be lazy, and they will make mistakes...it is the nature of individuals in general, not just athletes.
You have stated that coaches are first and foremost teachers...I agree 100%. Then why do teachers in the classroom (I have been one for 9 years) have to use discipline from time to time? Are THEY all screwed up and doing it wrong too?
Bottom line: Discipline is necessary in all walks of life for many different reasons. To pretend that people function better simply by policing themselves is putting one's head in the sand.
I respect your theories on this, and I have to say that you state your opinions more eloquently than any writer this side of Grantland Rice, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
If a program is to be successful, players must be pushed. I heard a great quote onetime:
"A coach's job is to make players do what they don't want to do, so that they can be what they want to be." Very true. In other words, players will push the boundaries, they will at times be lazy, and they will make mistakes...it is the nature of individuals in general, not just athletes.
You have stated that coaches are first and foremost teachers...I agree 100%. Then why do teachers in the classroom (I have been one for 9 years) have to use discipline from time to time? Are THEY all screwed up and doing it wrong too?
Bottom line: Discipline is necessary in all walks of life for many different reasons. To pretend that people function better simply by policing themselves is putting one's head in the sand.
I respect your theories on this, and I have to say that you state your opinions more eloquently than any writer this side of Grantland Rice, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
With all the psychobabble that is flying around here I think i must brush up on my psychology 101. We are going to need a shovel soon.
I've got to go get some aspirin. I'm having a bout of cognitive dissonance.
Pic,
Give it a rest...you aren't convincing us and we aren't convincing you...you love to display your ability to use the Thesarus for antonyms, synonyms and dumbonyms..as for myself....
Hum this to Heat Wave.....
I'm having a hot flash
A tropical hot flash
My personal summer is really a bummer
I'm having a hot flash
Comes on like a car crash
No warning just hot flash
Outside it is nippy, but I'm hot and drippy
I'm having a hot flash.....
Give it a rest...you aren't convincing us and we aren't convincing you...you love to display your ability to use the Thesarus for antonyms, synonyms and dumbonyms..as for myself....
Hum this to Heat Wave.....
I'm having a hot flash
A tropical hot flash
My personal summer is really a bummer
I'm having a hot flash
Comes on like a car crash
No warning just hot flash
Outside it is nippy, but I'm hot and drippy
I'm having a hot flash.....
Catchermom 
WOW
I just got a hot flash reading catchermoms post
I just got a hot flash reading catchermoms post
Pic have you ever coached 14 15 16 17 18 19 year old High School players? You can have a great relationship with your players. You can foster an environment that is both challenging and stimulating. But in order to maintain a disciplined environment you have to enforce discipline. We all from time to time must be disciplined in some form or another. The reason is we are all human and humans make mistakes or choose to do wrong intentionally.
Not baseball related, but this is from my son's former HS. This coach is well respected throughout the state. Maybe this is a mid-West culture, but IMHO, he's on the right track.
http://www.chieftain.com/sports/1101223351/5
http://www.chieftain.com/sports/1101223351/5
PIC-
Why are you so down on coaches? Obviously some coaches are better than others, but that's life. Deal with it and move on.
I think it is acceptable to use team leaders to help run practices and encourage younger players. Their role modeling helps establish expectations and behavior.
However, players should NEVER be in the position to hand out discipline. That is a coaches job and as a parent I would not tolerate it.
Your posts confuse me because you profess to be a conservative, but your messages say otherwise.
Why are you so down on coaches? Obviously some coaches are better than others, but that's life. Deal with it and move on.
I think it is acceptable to use team leaders to help run practices and encourage younger players. Their role modeling helps establish expectations and behavior.
However, players should NEVER be in the position to hand out discipline. That is a coaches job and as a parent I would not tolerate it.
Your posts confuse me because you profess to be a conservative, but your messages say otherwise.
I know I will be sorry for chiming in, but here goes.
Teenagers are Brain Dead!!!!!!!!! Just ask Bill Cosby, one of the wisest men to ever live
. The nicest kids, the best kids, all make mistakes and do something stupid which requires discipline. My sons HS coach is a very strict disciplinarian. His first year at the school, he kicked the #1 pitcher from the previous 2 years off the team BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED! But the kids love him and would walk through a mine field for him. They know exactly where they stand with him.
As for the original question, team or individual punishment, in his case it depends on the offense. The most important thing he does is treats everyone with respect and makes fun of everyone from the best player on the team to the kid who only gets in games when the score is 100-0. He treats them all the same, discipline wise.
It is interesting he has a philosophy of not cutting anyone, Small enough program where he really hasn't had to. But every kid knows his role on the team from the day the teams are announced. If a Kid will see no playing time , he tells them outright. Then some kids will decide not to stay with the team, knowing what their limited role will be. But the vast majority of the limited role players stay with the team and are happy just being part of the organization.
I wish you all could have a coach like we have,
Teenagers are Brain Dead!!!!!!!!! Just ask Bill Cosby, one of the wisest men to ever live
. The nicest kids, the best kids, all make mistakes and do something stupid which requires discipline. My sons HS coach is a very strict disciplinarian. His first year at the school, he kicked the #1 pitcher from the previous 2 years off the team BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED! But the kids love him and would walk through a mine field for him. They know exactly where they stand with him. As for the original question, team or individual punishment, in his case it depends on the offense. The most important thing he does is treats everyone with respect and makes fun of everyone from the best player on the team to the kid who only gets in games when the score is 100-0. He treats them all the same, discipline wise.
It is interesting he has a philosophy of not cutting anyone, Small enough program where he really hasn't had to. But every kid knows his role on the team from the day the teams are announced. If a Kid will see no playing time , he tells them outright. Then some kids will decide not to stay with the team, knowing what their limited role will be. But the vast majority of the limited role players stay with the team and are happy just being part of the organization.
I wish you all could have a coach like we have,
This has been a good thread to learn from.
Being a coaches daughter I always like the good discipline stories (Thank you Frank!) because
in most cases the quidelines you establish, and then carry through on for your players, also establishes your credibility and earns you respect.
Before reading all the coaches responses here I was in favor of individual attention to address any personal issues. If I could pick this random example to explain....
Team strikes out too much and coach is not happy. Coach makes team run. Pitchers, of course, have had no at bats but are running anyway. The same could be said for a day when pitchers have walked too many batters and the TEAM is asked to run because of it.
Before this conversation I would have thought the hitters who did not hit should run OR the pitchers who issued the BB should run, but maybe not both. Looking at this with new eyes after the dialouge.
Being a coaches daughter I always like the good discipline stories (Thank you Frank!) because
in most cases the quidelines you establish, and then carry through on for your players, also establishes your credibility and earns you respect.
Before reading all the coaches responses here I was in favor of individual attention to address any personal issues. If I could pick this random example to explain....
Team strikes out too much and coach is not happy. Coach makes team run. Pitchers, of course, have had no at bats but are running anyway. The same could be said for a day when pitchers have walked too many batters and the TEAM is asked to run because of it.
Before this conversation I would have thought the hitters who did not hit should run OR the pitchers who issued the BB should run, but maybe not both. Looking at this with new eyes after the dialouge.
Sorry Chill, I have to respond to your post. Even though I disagree with team discipline (and others have a right to disagree with me as well), I see no logic in
making a team run for striking out or issuing too many walks.
I honestly don't think the players are actually trying to fail in something they have been striving to accomplish their whole baseball careers.
Punishment/discipline should never be used as a tool to try to increase a players ability. If the team is striking out "too much" it's the coaches job to determine why
and instruct them properly so they will be more successful.
I saw a coach completely demoralize a third baseman because he disciplined him when
he would make an off-line throw to first base. Before the season was over the poor kid
was bouncing every throw to third and ended up giving up baseball.(true story).
Discipline/punishment should be used when a player intentionally breaks a rule or is
is insubordinate to a coach.
making a team run for striking out or issuing too many walks.
I honestly don't think the players are actually trying to fail in something they have been striving to accomplish their whole baseball careers.
Punishment/discipline should never be used as a tool to try to increase a players ability. If the team is striking out "too much" it's the coaches job to determine why
and instruct them properly so they will be more successful.
I saw a coach completely demoralize a third baseman because he disciplined him when
he would make an off-line throw to first base. Before the season was over the poor kid
was bouncing every throw to third and ended up giving up baseball.(true story).
Discipline/punishment should be used when a player intentionally breaks a rule or is
is insubordinate to a coach.
quote:
Originally posted by id12pack:
Obviously Pic you are a very educated person. However, I feel you have never had to coach(or teach as you keep implying that we don't realize) a competitive team where your job depended on W's.
The "FUN" as you keep eluding to does not come from external stimuli. IT COMES FROM WITHIN. My desire to compete and make myself better is the source of my fun. How the coach choses to dicipline has no effect on my enjoyment of playing the game. The ONLY players I played with and the ones I now coach that EVER moaned about not having fun were/are the kids who weren't good enough to play or silver spoon kids.
I hate to bust you bubble but collegiate sports are not the same as sandlot baseball. If your son wants to just have fun them tell he we have a great intramural program. All kinds of activities designed for fun. If he wants to compete on a championship level tell him to get self motivated and realize that unless he's his own boss then he will be doing things the rest of his life that he doesn't want to do and may not find them FUN.
If he can't have fun by going out there and busting his tail, taking responsiblity for his actions, and doing the things I ask him to do(whether he(or you)agree with it)then I don't want him on my team and neither will a future employer.
This thread has me all worked up. The greatest team in the world, our armed forces, have the toughest coaches on the planet but yet they seem to work well as a unit. But hey, you're probably against them as well.
You're attitude, IMHO, is the reason we have so many soft, undisciplined kids today. Everybody wants to be patted on the back and told it's ok, you'll get'em next time....this is ridiculous...
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ID
In your opening paragraph you make an assumption from reading my post here that is misrepresentative of my philosophy on discipline and punishment.
The best I can do is reveal how I have disciplined and punished teams that I have coached as well, specifically, my son who plays baseball.
I keep it as simple as possible. The questions I always ask a player after an infraction of the rules are:
(1) Do you understand that you have violated a rule that all of us are bound to live and work by on this team?
(2) At the time you committed the offense were you aware that you had broken a rule of the team?
(3) Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?
(4) Now that you understand that you committed an infraction and have explained your behavior, what do you think the coaches and your teammates should expect from you to restore yourself in good standing with them?
(5) If you were the coach of this team how would you handle this situation?
(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done?
(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done?
(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team?
(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.)
(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play.
You see I believe in rewarding success, which I have done with my teams and my son, and I have run them through additional practices when they have failed. And I alway make sure to run the practice so that it ends or a success and not a failure of execution.
But never have I ever punished a team because they lost, or because they didn't hit or didn't pitch up to my expectations. Never have I done things like running them or making them do extra PT as a punitive measure. That feeds the negative component of their psyche and is not productive. After a loss I do not want them to feel bad about themselves, but rather I want them to regain their confidence and reestablish their self-respect and self-image as worthy of the highest expectations of performance and behavior.
I cannot tell you how many times I have watched coaches after a game the team lost then go over every little negative play and error they made. I have seen coaches single out one player, in front of the team and blame that player for the team losing. I consider that a reason to "fire" a coach on the spot. This was one of the things that really drove me to remove my son from the NorCal program
Rather the approach after a lost is to tell the team how the coaches let them down by not preparing them properly and outlining what remedial steps will be taking over the next practices to help the team recover. That gives the team something to look forward to and helps them understand that the coaches are involved in the "future" of the players to help them get better.
It does no good to stand there and tell the team what is obvious to the players in the errors or missed opportunities in hitting or pitching. That is a waste of time.
To my way of thinking a player of baseball can only attain his maximum potential if he trust the coaches he is playing for. That can not be attained if the player is being denigrated for making mistakes, either in an individual sense, or collectively.
For this reason I have had to remove my son from programs that I felt were detrimental to his psychological development and his confidence even though they might be considered by others a great program...and that's why understanding hwo the differences in philosophies can impact a player or your son, and how to handle punishemnt and discipline are so important to the success of them.
UUUHHHHHHH....WOW!
(Fungo said we should use the emoticons more in expressing our feelings during the post)
(Fungo said we should use the emoticons more in expressing our feelings during the post)
Moc
It's okay.....
FTR, I agree with your posts on this subject.
Running is used by many coaches when games/level of play have been dissappointing.
Isn't that so?
Maybe the approach at the plate was undisciplined...maybe the pitcher's lacked focus in the coaches opinion?
These are not my rules, rather observations.
Each player is accountable and is expected to take care of the business they are assigned to
cover. Maybe coach senses the TEAM did not come ready to play...I agree that no one is ever in the game attempting to fail, but I do know there are days that kids don't show up. And, is that a mental lack of discipline that the coach may be addressing? Who knows.
I undestand what you are saying.
I dont have the answers but appreciate the views here by respected Coaches.
It's okay.....
FTR, I agree with your posts on this subject.
Running is used by many coaches when games/level of play have been dissappointing.
Isn't that so?
Maybe the approach at the plate was undisciplined...maybe the pitcher's lacked focus in the coaches opinion?
These are not my rules, rather observations.
Each player is accountable and is expected to take care of the business they are assigned to
cover. Maybe coach senses the TEAM did not come ready to play...I agree that no one is ever in the game attempting to fail, but I do know there are days that kids don't show up. And, is that a mental lack of discipline that the coach may be addressing? Who knows.
I undestand what you are saying.
I dont have the answers but appreciate the views here by respected Coaches.
I can't take this seriously so I have to make jest of it:
PiC, You got me confused ...(that is a by-product of being ignorant).
Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives.
I tried to envision your discussion with a player...I’ve put a make believe player on your team. He’s had a chance to read your philosophy on punishment and discipline. He’s made a mistake and has transgressed...You and this player are having a discussion:
You ask him “Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?” “Why do you ask me that question coach Pic?? You already know the answer…I was BORED…” So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus.
(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team? “Why would I accept running as a punishment coach? You and I both know that punishment is bad”: Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. “And Running? Golly coach PiC, You have said you don’t believe in running as a punishment?”
No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times.
(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done? “Stand in front of a team? Come on coach..That is a no no..”Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion.
(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.) “Geez Coach PiC, what about your stand? Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.
(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play. “Whew, thanks Coach PiC, I was afraid you were going to punish me. I like these incentives and instructions”
(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done? “Punishment? You mean we are going to be punished? Please Coach PiC, what about our creed?”, Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.
I like the way your concept of teaching carries over to adults...I can see the parent of a young player on your team that has recently moved to California ...
As a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California.
OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
Fungo
PiC, You got me confused ...(that is a by-product of being ignorant).
Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives.
I tried to envision your discussion with a player...I’ve put a make believe player on your team. He’s had a chance to read your philosophy on punishment and discipline. He’s made a mistake and has transgressed...You and this player are having a discussion:
You ask him “Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?” “Why do you ask me that question coach Pic?? You already know the answer…I was BORED…” So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus.
(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team? “Why would I accept running as a punishment coach? You and I both know that punishment is bad”: Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. “And Running? Golly coach PiC, You have said you don’t believe in running as a punishment?”
No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times.
(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done? “Stand in front of a team? Come on coach..That is a no no..”Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion.
(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.) “Geez Coach PiC, what about your stand? Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.
(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play. “Whew, thanks Coach PiC, I was afraid you were going to punish me. I like these incentives and instructions”
(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done? “Punishment? You mean we are going to be punished? Please Coach PiC, what about our creed?”, Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.
I like the way your concept of teaching carries over to adults...I can see the parent of a young player on your team that has recently moved to California ...
As a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California.
OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
Fungo
PiC
Have you ever considered what psychological damage you do to your son because you pulled him from programs where YOU did not agree with the coach or his philosophies.
You sound like all the daddies that go off and start their own team so their Little Johnny is assured of playing all the time and in the position he wants to play.
Have you ever considered what psychological damage you do to your son because you pulled him from programs where YOU did not agree with the coach or his philosophies.
You sound like all the daddies that go off and start their own team so their Little Johnny is assured of playing all the time and in the position he wants to play.
quote:
Originally posted by fungo:
I can't take this seriously so I have to make jest of it:
PiC, You got me confused ...(that is a by-product of being ignorant).
_Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives._
I tried to envision your discussion with a player...I’ve put a make believe player on your team. He’s had a chance to read your philosophy on punishment and discipline. He’s made a mistake and has transgressed...You and this player are having a discussion:
You ask him _“Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?” _ “Why do you ask me that question coach Pic?? You already know the answer…I was BORED…” _So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus._
_(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team?_ “Why would I accept running as a punishment coach? You and I both know that punishment is bad”: _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._ “And Running? Golly coach PiC, You have said you don’t believe in running as a punishment?” _
No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times._
_(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done?_ “Stand in front of a team? Come on coach..That is a no no..”_Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion._
_(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.)_ “Geez Coach PiC, what about your stand? _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._
_(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play._ “Whew, thanks Coach PiC, I was afraid you were going to punish me. I like these incentives and instructions”
_(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done?_ “Punishment? You mean we are going to be punished? Please Coach PiC, what about our creed?”, _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._
I like the way your concept of teaching carries over to adults...I can see the parent of a young player on your team that has recently moved to California ...
_As a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California._
OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
Fungo
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You said: OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
You got more out my post than I thought possible. You're smarter than you think. Now you understand the "reason" for baseball.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
PiC
Have you ever considered what psychological damage you do to your son because you pulled him from programs where YOU did not agree with the coach or his philosophies.
You sound like all the daddies that go off and start their own team so their Little Johnny is assured of playing all the time and in the position he wants to play.
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The answer to your question assumes that my son can't determine nor understand what a jerk is from a "real" coach, and be able do that for himself.
Just because it's baseball doesn't change the parameters of human relations. A jerk is a jerk whether you are a webster on the HSBBWEB yanking my chain all the time or a coach screaming at a kid on the baseball diamond making the kid feel like he would rather read a book than play baseball.
PiC
I assume nothing about your son or any other person I have not met-- I am discussing with you and you alone
Instead worrying about the chain that you placed on your own neck being pulled answer the question---have you ever thought of the damage you may have done to your son by pulling him out of programs ?
JERK must be a California Citzens word because not too many residents outside of your state use it in referring to another human being in a debate or discussion
I assume nothing about your son or any other person I have not met-- I am discussing with you and you alone
Instead worrying about the chain that you placed on your own neck being pulled answer the question---have you ever thought of the damage you may have done to your son by pulling him out of programs ?
JERK must be a California Citzens word because not too many residents outside of your state use it in referring to another human being in a debate or discussion
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
PiC
I assume nothing about your son or any other person I have not met-- I am discussing with you and you alone
Instead worrying about the chain that you placed on your own neck being pulled answer the question---have you ever thought of the damage you may have done to your son by pulling him out of programs ?
JERK must be a California Citzens word because not too many residents outside of your state use it in referring to another human being in a debate or discussion
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I get the feeling you may be actually trying to have a dialogue with me...but I will reserve judgement...
When my son was younger and after explaining to him why certain adults behave they way they do, we explained to him what was acceptable behavior from a coach and what wasn't exceptable.
As he got older and began to assess the differences in coaching styles, and as like anyone of us would, he came to understand what made him want to play for a coach and what didn't.
He came to express his trepedations about an adult (coach) only after he saw one of the other players being mistreated or abused verbally.
We always asked him what do you think of your coach and how he handles your team? The majority of times his answer was very positive when he thought the coach had good style and knew his business. But likewise if he perceived that a coach had not studied the game and had not learned the nuances of the game he was rather critical. No player wants to play for a coach they perceive is uninformed, incorrect, or has poor instincts of what to do in giving situations. Why, because players all want to know they can improve their game playing for a good coach.
The decision not to return to a program is one that has to be balanced between what the gain is in staying and what is the gain in leaving. In every case we sat down with our son to discuss the pros and cons. He was never removed from a program based upon anger or vengence. The assessment was always if he stayed what would happen to his game in the long run.
It was only after making that analyses that the decision was made...and not by me. He decided and had to justify it to both his mother and me. He has great instincts about people, and in every case he has been right.
In every case he played out the season, except one, and opted not to return to a team that he felt that he could not make the progress he wanted. While coming up in the development leagues his attitude was about playing, not watching. He told me to find as many teams he could play for in a season so that he could get in as much pitching, fielding, batting, etc that he could so he could improve.
His goal has always been to play in the majors. Maybe he will, and maybe he won't, but it won't be because he didn't give his complete and unadulterated best effort.
Chill-I'm in agreement.
BTW-Very good and thought provoking thread.
BTW-Very good and thought provoking thread.
PiC
There is, as I see it, one fly in your ointment--- what you and your son believe to be proper coaches behavior may not agree with what all the other players and parents believe it should be---
As I have said before--in the real world one cannot just keep hopping from lily pad to lily pad-- most will fall off at one time or another and some cannot swim
Do you get the point ???
There is, as I see it, one fly in your ointment--- what you and your son believe to be proper coaches behavior may not agree with what all the other players and parents believe it should be---
As I have said before--in the real world one cannot just keep hopping from lily pad to lily pad-- most will fall off at one time or another and some cannot swim
Do you get the point ???
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
PiC
There is, as I see it, one fly in your ointment--- what you and your son believe to be proper coaches behavior may not agree with what all the other players and parents believe it should be---
As I have said before--in the real world one cannot just keep hopping from lily pad to lily pad-- most will fall off at one time or another and some cannot swim
Do you get the point ???
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Your answer makes me wonder if you were ever a player. I don't know how many teams I played for in my career just getting to the minor league level.
If you're not willing to move to the next venue to improve your situation, whether it be a jerk for a coach or for better competition, you will die on the vine. Only stupid people stay locked into a distasteful situation year after year.
You need to read Donald Trump's book Think Like A Billionaire (he's only worth $3.5B) and then tell me about your silly philosophy about lilly pads.
Just makes me shake my head in wonderment who really is on this HSBBWEB site touting themselves as experts.
Whoosh
quote:
Originally posted by playball50:
PIC-
Why are you so down on coaches? Obviously some coaches are better than others, but that's life. Deal with it and move on.
I think it is acceptable to use team leaders to help run practices and encourage younger players. Their role modeling helps establish expectations and behavior.
However, players should NEVER be in the position to hand out discipline. That is a coaches job and as a parent I would not tolerate it.
Your posts confuse me because you profess to be a conservative, but your messages say otherwise.
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It's difficult for me to see how you are able to interpret my opinions as being against coaches.
I have some trepidations about styles, which I have seen my son go through differing types. Then as a past player and coach myself i have experienced the best and the worse by personal and direct knowledge.
There is not a monolith in the field of coaching so for you to express dismay that we are discussing those differences in styles in the mthodology of discipline and punishment should not come as any surprise that negative aspects of unwanted behavior and results would be discussed about coaches.
PIC,
Using Donald Trump as an example for this subject matter is ridiculous on just about every level. His background bears virtually no resemblence to 99% of young adults in this country.
Additionally - the lesson he provides to youth is that he has always stuck with what he knows best - real estate and self promotion - despite many terrible failures. He is clever, resilient and persistent. You picked the wrong example IMO - in an attempt to justify your point.
If you think that one should pack up their bags every time they work for someone whom they dont agree with - you are sadly mistaken.
In fact, most business executives I know look for the exact opposite quality in their staff. The true test - whether in business or in any other field - is how a young adult deals with situations and environments that may not be to his liking.
Those that are clever, resilient and appropriately persistent succeed - and those that quit and move on every time they run into a difficult situation - fail.
I would suggest to you that having a resume that resembles a bouncing ball is not the ideal qualification a potential employer is looking for.
Take it for whatever you think its worth. Now - its time for coffee.
Using Donald Trump as an example for this subject matter is ridiculous on just about every level. His background bears virtually no resemblence to 99% of young adults in this country.
Additionally - the lesson he provides to youth is that he has always stuck with what he knows best - real estate and self promotion - despite many terrible failures. He is clever, resilient and persistent. You picked the wrong example IMO - in an attempt to justify your point.
If you think that one should pack up their bags every time they work for someone whom they dont agree with - you are sadly mistaken.
In fact, most business executives I know look for the exact opposite quality in their staff. The true test - whether in business or in any other field - is how a young adult deals with situations and environments that may not be to his liking.
Those that are clever, resilient and appropriately persistent succeed - and those that quit and move on every time they run into a difficult situation - fail.
I would suggest to you that having a resume that resembles a bouncing ball is not the ideal qualification a potential employer is looking for.
Take it for whatever you think its worth. Now - its time for coffee.
Pic
I have been reading your posts and in all honesty I will ask this question. Are you putting us on?
I have been reading your posts and in all honesty I will ask this question. Are you putting us on?
Will,
Where ya been? PiC is a HSBBW icon....Baseball parents and coaches have been reading, debating, and trying to understand PiC and his numerous aliases for over a year …here is the way I’d describe PiC. First you have to understand the caterpillar/cocoon/butterfly metamorphosis and envision it working in reverse. PiC flutters around on a topic splashing his brightly colored words while amazing baseball parents with his mastery of the thesaurus. He eventually runs his course of verbal tomfoolery and knowledgeable baseball people call his hand…at that point he starts spouting venomous words and exits into a cocoon…he stays dormant for a short period..reads his thesaurus, concocts a new screen name…and emerges as a different worm.
Where ya been? PiC is a HSBBW icon....Baseball parents and coaches have been reading, debating, and trying to understand PiC and his numerous aliases for over a year …here is the way I’d describe PiC. First you have to understand the caterpillar/cocoon/butterfly metamorphosis and envision it working in reverse. PiC flutters around on a topic splashing his brightly colored words while amazing baseball parents with his mastery of the thesaurus. He eventually runs his course of verbal tomfoolery and knowledgeable baseball people call his hand…at that point he starts spouting venomous words and exits into a cocoon…he stays dormant for a short period..reads his thesaurus, concocts a new screen name…and emerges as a different worm.
PiC
Your words a giving away your lack of class--- JERK---STUPID-- did you lose your book with all the huge words???
Yes I played ball
Yes I have and still do coach
Yes I think I know the game
I have NEVER EVER touted myself as an expert--I leave that to people like you as you seem to have all the answers regarding baseball, the world and life.
By the way the more you babble on the more you make a fool of yourself-- going up a minor league ladder and how many teams you play on is not your choice--it is the ownerships choice
Have a nice day!!!!
Your words a giving away your lack of class--- JERK---STUPID-- did you lose your book with all the huge words???
Yes I played ball
Yes I have and still do coach
Yes I think I know the game
I have NEVER EVER touted myself as an expert--I leave that to people like you as you seem to have all the answers regarding baseball, the world and life.
By the way the more you babble on the more you make a fool of yourself-- going up a minor league ladder and how many teams you play on is not your choice--it is the ownerships choice
Have a nice day!!!!
fungo,
Nice analogy...want to let you know our experiences with the silk worm...my daughter(who is a teacher) ordered them to teach her class the process of metamorphesis...I, at my age, learned alot from this...so we had the worms on our deck in a covered container..they went through the worm to small butterfly back to cocoon stage...lovingly fed them mulberry leaves, gave them small twigs to grasp onto for their cocoon stage and what to our surprise happened....they crooked...gone....dead as a door nail...so I trashed them a few weeks ago...perhaps we maybe be able to put our friend Pic in the same receptacle...thesaurus as well
Nice analogy...want to let you know our experiences with the silk worm...my daughter(who is a teacher) ordered them to teach her class the process of metamorphesis...I, at my age, learned alot from this...so we had the worms on our deck in a covered container..they went through the worm to small butterfly back to cocoon stage...lovingly fed them mulberry leaves, gave them small twigs to grasp onto for their cocoon stage and what to our surprise happened....they crooked...gone....dead as a door nail...so I trashed them a few weeks ago...perhaps we maybe be able to put our friend Pic in the same receptacle...thesaurus as well
fungo,
Two good posts! Funny how PIC chose to ignore your scenario between the player and himself.
P.S. Oops, I almost forgot. I'm welcome for my contribution.
Two good posts! Funny how PIC chose to ignore your scenario between the player and himself.
P.S. Oops, I almost forgot. I'm welcome for my contribution.
Will
You said:
Pic
I have been reading your posts and in all honesty I will ask this question. Are you putting us on?
Thanks for your question...
It's all competition...
Here, you are dealing here with the most competitive people in the world...and you better come with your feelings battened down.
We all play a role...acting is part of living, and feints are part of the thrust and paree of any battle. I know some will say that we shouldn't be that way here, but it is the reality of the competitiveness between all old athletes with big egoes.
I do not read the prima-facia but the underlying premise of the intentions of the poster. If I perceive that there is content in the poster's intention that has insult or contains a thread of insincerity, or has an underlying meanness interweaved into the post I do not give a straight and meaningful answer...
In fact about much of what I have posted here has been in response in some degree an underlying mean spiritedness. But that's okay because what they don't realize is that I don't mind. I enjoy playing the "game". It's nothing more than competition to my way of thinking.
So the result is that most of what I have posted may be a completely oblique answer to confuse rather then clarify. But the way I see it the General Items Forum it's the place where most of incubation of ideas takes place, but it is not a place for serious discussion since there are forums for all States and other venues to do that. If anyone doesn't understand that then they misunderstand how to use this website.
Paree and thrust with epees. It seems to be the favorite pastime of most of the monitors. So if they want to play verbal games I'm more than happy to accomodate. But sincerity in my post which results in attacks, never...let them attack what they think I said not what I really believe. It is fun watching them fall all over themselves in feigned indignation then turn around and skewer the next post.
I believe the result is that most of what is posted here in the General Items Forum is BS.
But if you are looking for "real" baseball discourse, there is one person who post here that I trust and that's Bob Williams, Goodwill Series, Inc, founder of Area Code Baseball. He is the only poster that I see comes here to offer useful information to parents and players.
If I was a parent looking for the best advice for my son I would look to him to provide it.
Aside from TRhit and Fungo this website wouldn't be as interesting and entertaining. I spend most of my time LOL at their non-sensical posts. I understand them better than they think. In every "closed" society there always a need to have a straw-dog to use as an example of what will happen to you if you dare to oppose the tyrants. In Cuba, Castro uses the USA. With the Arabs it's the Jews, on the HSBBWEB it's me...but really it's about how they maintain control and rule with an iron fist. I don't ascribe to that kind of thinking and that is really the "rub" here with Fungo and TR and others who think like them. But they dob't bother me...they do provide comic relief for me.
JustBaseball says I've made myself into a laughing stock and a punching bag, but he doesn't realize I'm proud of that. It means that the strawdog label has been given to me, and that's okay by me; why, because it means I still have my own identity and my individual personality...and not a complete conformist just so I don't offend someone.
Being "politically correct" is just another way of being a coward, to my way of thinking. So I look forward to more competition...as "Rush" says "competition in the marketplace of ideas". That's what a democracy is...hard to keep it open here, but we will try.
Anyway...Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone!
You said:
Pic
I have been reading your posts and in all honesty I will ask this question. Are you putting us on?
Thanks for your question...
It's all competition...
Here, you are dealing here with the most competitive people in the world...and you better come with your feelings battened down.
We all play a role...acting is part of living, and feints are part of the thrust and paree of any battle. I know some will say that we shouldn't be that way here, but it is the reality of the competitiveness between all old athletes with big egoes.
I do not read the prima-facia but the underlying premise of the intentions of the poster. If I perceive that there is content in the poster's intention that has insult or contains a thread of insincerity, or has an underlying meanness interweaved into the post I do not give a straight and meaningful answer...
In fact about much of what I have posted here has been in response in some degree an underlying mean spiritedness. But that's okay because what they don't realize is that I don't mind. I enjoy playing the "game". It's nothing more than competition to my way of thinking.
So the result is that most of what I have posted may be a completely oblique answer to confuse rather then clarify. But the way I see it the General Items Forum it's the place where most of incubation of ideas takes place, but it is not a place for serious discussion since there are forums for all States and other venues to do that. If anyone doesn't understand that then they misunderstand how to use this website.
Paree and thrust with epees. It seems to be the favorite pastime of most of the monitors. So if they want to play verbal games I'm more than happy to accomodate. But sincerity in my post which results in attacks, never...let them attack what they think I said not what I really believe. It is fun watching them fall all over themselves in feigned indignation then turn around and skewer the next post.
I believe the result is that most of what is posted here in the General Items Forum is BS.
But if you are looking for "real" baseball discourse, there is one person who post here that I trust and that's Bob Williams, Goodwill Series, Inc, founder of Area Code Baseball. He is the only poster that I see comes here to offer useful information to parents and players.
If I was a parent looking for the best advice for my son I would look to him to provide it.
Aside from TRhit and Fungo this website wouldn't be as interesting and entertaining. I spend most of my time LOL at their non-sensical posts. I understand them better than they think. In every "closed" society there always a need to have a straw-dog to use as an example of what will happen to you if you dare to oppose the tyrants. In Cuba, Castro uses the USA. With the Arabs it's the Jews, on the HSBBWEB it's me...but really it's about how they maintain control and rule with an iron fist. I don't ascribe to that kind of thinking and that is really the "rub" here with Fungo and TR and others who think like them. But they dob't bother me...they do provide comic relief for me.
JustBaseball says I've made myself into a laughing stock and a punching bag, but he doesn't realize I'm proud of that. It means that the strawdog label has been given to me, and that's okay by me; why, because it means I still have my own identity and my individual personality...and not a complete conformist just so I don't offend someone.
Being "politically correct" is just another way of being a coward, to my way of thinking. So I look forward to more competition...as "Rush" says "competition in the marketplace of ideas". That's what a democracy is...hard to keep it open here, but we will try.
Anyway...Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone!
To all who have offered post that I read each one of you used discipline and punishment interchangeably like they are one and the same thing.
As I tried to understand why there seemed to be a continual distortion or lack of comprehension of my position on discipline versus punishment it became obvious to me that to you are using discipline as the same thing as punishment...and even though both can be used interchangeably I was not doing so. I was using the second definition of discipline which is the teaching or instruction.
Punishment connotes to me an attack on the persons self-image, self-esteem and confidence...which reverses the desired results of what you're trying to achieve with a player.
The player already has feelings of inadequacy because that is the brutality of what the game does to a hitter, pitcher, fielder, or have all of you forgotten what it feels like to strike out with the bases loaded and the winning run on third.
If that isn't punishment I don't know what is...and now on top of that some have said they think a kid should be punished for it. So then you heep on somemore.
No wonder most kids quit baseball.
The figure is, whether you realize it or not...70% of all kids who start out playing organized baseball at the LL level...quit.
As I tried to understand why there seemed to be a continual distortion or lack of comprehension of my position on discipline versus punishment it became obvious to me that to you are using discipline as the same thing as punishment...and even though both can be used interchangeably I was not doing so. I was using the second definition of discipline which is the teaching or instruction.
Punishment connotes to me an attack on the persons self-image, self-esteem and confidence...which reverses the desired results of what you're trying to achieve with a player.
The player already has feelings of inadequacy because that is the brutality of what the game does to a hitter, pitcher, fielder, or have all of you forgotten what it feels like to strike out with the bases loaded and the winning run on third.
If that isn't punishment I don't know what is...and now on top of that some have said they think a kid should be punished for it. So then you heep on somemore.
No wonder most kids quit baseball.
The figure is, whether you realize it or not...70% of all kids who start out playing organized baseball at the LL level...quit.
So running in a dress does not attack a person's self image, self-esteem or confidence...I guess because the captain's allocated it?? You are putting us on. And...
Mr williams is a great baseball person, but the Goodwill series is not on the competitive level of the upper level HS teams..it is a good way for players to grow, travel and learn new cultures as my son learned...do not overplay it as a great baseball competition...it is an experience rather than a competition. It has absolutely nothing to do with Area Code.
Mr williams is a great baseball person, but the Goodwill series is not on the competitive level of the upper level HS teams..it is a good way for players to grow, travel and learn new cultures as my son learned...do not overplay it as a great baseball competition...it is an experience rather than a competition. It has absolutely nothing to do with Area Code.
PiC....
I read the General Items threads almost daily and often contribute. Never have I contributed B.S.
You wrote that:
Mr. Williams "is the only poster that I see comes here to offer useful information to parents and players".
I like what he contributes as well, but it is a shame that you think the rest of us offer only B.S.
A wonderful Thanksgiving to all!!
I read the General Items threads almost daily and often contribute. Never have I contributed B.S.
You wrote that:
Mr. Williams "is the only poster that I see comes here to offer useful information to parents and players".
I like what he contributes as well, but it is a shame that you think the rest of us offer only B.S.
A wonderful Thanksgiving to all!!
PiC, this is the second request, at least warn somebody, geez, please open a window or at least light a match! I type this with one hand as the other is holding my nose. 
Do you actually believe that the reason that 70% of kids stop playing baseball is discipline?
Chill,
I finally got a chance to ask my son about his coach's philosophy on discipline. According to him, discipline is not used with negative connotations. Discipline is something that each individual player uses to improve himself, the team.
However, there are very strict rules to be followed. If they are broken, you might as well take a walk up to the office and ask for your release papers.
I finally got a chance to ask my son about his coach's philosophy on discipline. According to him, discipline is not used with negative connotations. Discipline is something that each individual player uses to improve himself, the team.
However, there are very strict rules to be followed. If they are broken, you might as well take a walk up to the office and ask for your release papers.
Coach May ...
To borrow an old '70's phrase ... right on !!!! The reason 70% quit ... because they either can't, or don't want to, compete and contribute at the next level they face.
PiC ...
I understand what you are saying about people using the words discipline and punishment interchangeably. It is a common usage of the words. One thing we can probably all acknowledge is that all punishment is some form of discipline but not all forms of discipline involve punishment.
I believe somewhere in this thread someone (possibly Chill?) commented that sometimes coaches use "punishment" (e.g., running) after a lousy game not because the team lost but because the coach perceived that the players didn't appear prepared to compete. We saw times during our son's college career where the team was "punished" even after what fans perceived to be a "great win" because the coach felt that the players' demeanor and behavior during the game was disrespectful of the game. That was the coach's biggest demand of the team ... that they never do anything to disrespect the game.
I didn't always agree with the way our son's coaches (high school and college) handled discipline ... individual vs team ... over the years. But one thing he learned from it all while he was growing up was that sometimes you take the bad with the good. As an adult, there will be times he has to deal with "bosses" who are a pain in the patooty (did I spell that right?) and he can't always choose to change jobs because of it. He will have to cope and hope that things improve. He will have to learn to "deal with it", realize that sometimes authority figures and employment superiors are just not nice people, and not take it personally.
I totally disagree with a peer being responsible for discipline and/or punishment of his/her teammates. As stated elsewhere, that is not the job of a peer ... it is the coaching staff's responsibility.
If a player is a leader and takes a personal interest in his teammates and their growth and improvement, he can, and probably will, step up and counsel his teammates. But more importantly, I believe, he will lead by example. Infractions of team rules are more appropriately handled by the coaching staff, not the players. Just as in business and government organizations, there is a hierarchy of staff/workers, supervisors/bosses, so too do we find this on teams. If a MLB player does something wrong (e.g., angry outbursts by players such as Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley come to mind) it isn't the players that discipline the rule breaker ... it is management and possibly even the commissioner's office if the infraction warrants it. Likewise, high school and college teams would do well to follow the same model for disciplinary action.
And finally, altho I try not to be too personal in my responses to individual posters, I just don't get why you would seem to take so much pride in stating that you intentionally try to confuse rather than clarify ...
To borrow an old '70's phrase ... right on !!!! The reason 70% quit ... because they either can't, or don't want to, compete and contribute at the next level they face.
PiC ...
I understand what you are saying about people using the words discipline and punishment interchangeably. It is a common usage of the words. One thing we can probably all acknowledge is that all punishment is some form of discipline but not all forms of discipline involve punishment.
I believe somewhere in this thread someone (possibly Chill?) commented that sometimes coaches use "punishment" (e.g., running) after a lousy game not because the team lost but because the coach perceived that the players didn't appear prepared to compete. We saw times during our son's college career where the team was "punished" even after what fans perceived to be a "great win" because the coach felt that the players' demeanor and behavior during the game was disrespectful of the game. That was the coach's biggest demand of the team ... that they never do anything to disrespect the game.
I didn't always agree with the way our son's coaches (high school and college) handled discipline ... individual vs team ... over the years. But one thing he learned from it all while he was growing up was that sometimes you take the bad with the good. As an adult, there will be times he has to deal with "bosses" who are a pain in the patooty (did I spell that right?) and he can't always choose to change jobs because of it. He will have to cope and hope that things improve. He will have to learn to "deal with it", realize that sometimes authority figures and employment superiors are just not nice people, and not take it personally.
I totally disagree with a peer being responsible for discipline and/or punishment of his/her teammates. As stated elsewhere, that is not the job of a peer ... it is the coaching staff's responsibility.
If a player is a leader and takes a personal interest in his teammates and their growth and improvement, he can, and probably will, step up and counsel his teammates. But more importantly, I believe, he will lead by example. Infractions of team rules are more appropriately handled by the coaching staff, not the players. Just as in business and government organizations, there is a hierarchy of staff/workers, supervisors/bosses, so too do we find this on teams. If a MLB player does something wrong (e.g., angry outbursts by players such as Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley come to mind) it isn't the players that discipline the rule breaker ... it is management and possibly even the commissioner's office if the infraction warrants it. Likewise, high school and college teams would do well to follow the same model for disciplinary action.
And finally, altho I try not to be too personal in my responses to individual posters, I just don't get why you would seem to take so much pride in stating that you intentionally try to confuse rather than clarify ...
quote:If that is your intention in many of your posts, then were you describing yourself when you stated that most of what is posted here in the General Items Forum is BS???
So the result is that most of what I have posted may be a completely oblique answer to confuse rather then clarify.