Just in case anyone is interested UCLA is playing Bethune Cookman game on ESPN2 now. USC and Southern University play next at 11:30PM EST. Games are part of the MLB Urban Invitational Tournament.
Nice to see some baseball!
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The UCLA and Bethune Cookman game has been great. Two tough lefties going at it and right now it's 1-0 UCLA in the top of the 9th. UCLA got a solo homerun but only have 3 hits - make that 4 hits.
Bethune Cookman has 5 hits I think.
UCLA has made some great plays defensively.
Great game.
Bethune Cookman has 5 hits I think.
UCLA has made some great plays defensively.
Great game.
These games are on because they want to promote baseball to young African Americans. That should have been very obvious by all the comments and who the people being interviewed were. I think it was a great effort by nearly everyone involved.
It was a great game, but I think as far as the purpose of the game... It was pretty much a failure!
Wonder how much impact the game will have on young African American athletes who might be potential baseball players. I counted three black players combined in the two starting lineups.
Young kids did get to see Bethune Cookman use a black player as a pinch runner and another came in to the game in the eighth inning. Doubt if that will create a lot of interest.
However, it was a great promotion for young Latin Players. Bethune Cookman a "black school" has 20 Latins on their roster. Nothing against Latin ball players, of course, but its not like there is any shortage in that area.
I know some think this is no big deal, but I think it is. To the extent of accomplishing anything, I'm afraid it might have backfired!
The NCAA has to allow more baseball scholarships in the interest of the game of baseball. Maybe they could work in partnership with MLB and MLB could fund those additional scholarships. They could sure use the positive feelings people might have about that. It might increase the number of black players and even give more opportunities to white players, Latin and other players as well. Or would that even make that big a difference?
Congats to Gabe Cohen and Tim Murphy!
It was a great game, but I think as far as the purpose of the game... It was pretty much a failure!
Wonder how much impact the game will have on young African American athletes who might be potential baseball players. I counted three black players combined in the two starting lineups.
Young kids did get to see Bethune Cookman use a black player as a pinch runner and another came in to the game in the eighth inning. Doubt if that will create a lot of interest.
However, it was a great promotion for young Latin Players. Bethune Cookman a "black school" has 20 Latins on their roster. Nothing against Latin ball players, of course, but its not like there is any shortage in that area.
I know some think this is no big deal, but I think it is. To the extent of accomplishing anything, I'm afraid it might have backfired!
The NCAA has to allow more baseball scholarships in the interest of the game of baseball. Maybe they could work in partnership with MLB and MLB could fund those additional scholarships. They could sure use the positive feelings people might have about that. It might increase the number of black players and even give more opportunities to white players, Latin and other players as well. Or would that even make that big a difference?
Congats to Gabe Cohen and Tim Murphy!
PG,
I agree! If they want to get more black athletes into College baseball, they need to increase the number and amount of the scholarships. Start giving 15-20 full ride scholarships and baseball will become a huge hit. I also think that if they would put 5 to 10 games at least a week on and let the conferences split the money, baseball could become a revenue sport.
I agree! If they want to get more black athletes into College baseball, they need to increase the number and amount of the scholarships. Start giving 15-20 full ride scholarships and baseball will become a huge hit. I also think that if they would put 5 to 10 games at least a week on and let the conferences split the money, baseball could become a revenue sport.
Nice, I guess my complain works.
"coachbwww
Member
Posted February 20, 2008 10:12 AM Hide Post
Sorry, I have to say that you guys are in denial. There are almost no College Baseball Games on National TV, that's the fact! I don't think people would like to watch baseball games on those tiny computer screens.
Look at Japan, they not only televise college baseball, but also televise a lot of high school baseball games Nationwide. I know baseball maybe the only hot team sports they got, but should we learn something from them? Baseball is the American's game, for god sake!
As a baseball addict, I am really mad at ESPN, the monoploy of the sports network!
Posts: 65 | Location: Kansas | Registered: January 20, 2008 "
ESPN knew I was mad....
Thanks ESPN!
"coachbwww
Member
Posted February 20, 2008 10:12 AM Hide Post
Sorry, I have to say that you guys are in denial. There are almost no College Baseball Games on National TV, that's the fact! I don't think people would like to watch baseball games on those tiny computer screens.
Look at Japan, they not only televise college baseball, but also televise a lot of high school baseball games Nationwide. I know baseball maybe the only hot team sports they got, but should we learn something from them? Baseball is the American's game, for god sake!
As a baseball addict, I am really mad at ESPN, the monoploy of the sports network!
Posts: 65 | Location: Kansas | Registered: January 20, 2008 "
ESPN knew I was mad....
Thanks ESPN!as evidenced by that broadcast many feel that way ...quote:by PG: The NCAA has to allow more baseball scholarships in the interest of the game of baseball ... It might increase the number of black players and even give more opportunities to white players, Latin and other players as well. Or would that even make that big a difference?
and feel that money, media exposure, & specially funded($) programs can correct the (perceived) imbalance.
but, sometimes those really smart poeple overlook the obvious ...
1) does college football interest more black players because colleges offer 85 FULL scholarships & prime-time TV??
2) Do kids and their parents choose a favorite sport in grade school based on scholarship availability?
... it's safe to say that most all kids/parents believe that ANY sports scholarship is a full ride (except hsbbweb-sters) ...
some baseball parents even insist they got a "full ride" with their 25% check in hand
OR ... does college football interest more players of all backgrounds because ...
a) while growing up, their entire community revolves around hs football
b) the hs booster club gave 'em a football at birth
c) Dad & uncle Mo got season tickets gifted from Grandpa who hasn't missed a hs football game in 32 yrs
d) Aunt Martha has worked the hs concession stand as far back as memory goes
e) a major part of every kid's "socialization" result's from running around with other kids Friday nights
jmo
I would much rather watch college baseball than some of the things they show as "sports" on ESPN. Since when is poker a sport?????
I might be in the minority here, but I would rather watch college baseball before MLB.
I would have to agree with Bee that the first thing to overcome is the social.
As long as I've been alive, HS baseball in our area garners a fraction of the interest of the other two majors, basketball and football. Go further north and it also falls in behind hockey.
I had a conversation the other week with a parent of a player who is a frosh HS star. He's played high level travel his whole life, traveled the country, all the pre requisites to knowledge. Yet this father had absolutlely no idea about the availability of college scholarships for baseball.
To involve youth would take a two fold approach of attraction and availability. Events like the ESPN game could (not that it did) serve as part of the attractive process. The other, and more important part, is opportunity. Urban African American youth does not have promoted access to the coaching and opportunities it takes to interest and then develop high level ball players. JMHO
As long as I've been alive, HS baseball in our area garners a fraction of the interest of the other two majors, basketball and football. Go further north and it also falls in behind hockey.
I had a conversation the other week with a parent of a player who is a frosh HS star. He's played high level travel his whole life, traveled the country, all the pre requisites to knowledge. Yet this father had absolutlely no idea about the availability of college scholarships for baseball.
To involve youth would take a two fold approach of attraction and availability. Events like the ESPN game could (not that it did) serve as part of the attractive process. The other, and more important part, is opportunity. Urban African American youth does not have promoted access to the coaching and opportunities it takes to interest and then develop high level ball players. JMHO
If you watched the game and listened to the commentary.
They basicly said the reason for the drop in participation in the innercity was the lack of field's/space to play safely.
Also the lack of Quality instruction.
Also by exposing the Players to what it takes to becoming a ballplayer. ( the hard work, and the time thats put in. )
You don't have to travel to become a better player.
But you do need to play top competition.
A few quality tournament's a year in all age bracket's, Made excessiable to the area's and players needing it the most.
Sure it's going to be raw talent at time's.
Isn't that where the coaching challenge begin's??
EH
They basicly said the reason for the drop in participation in the innercity was the lack of field's/space to play safely.
Also the lack of Quality instruction.
Also by exposing the Players to what it takes to becoming a ballplayer. ( the hard work, and the time thats put in. )
You don't have to travel to become a better player.
But you do need to play top competition.
A few quality tournament's a year in all age bracket's, Made excessiable to the area's and players needing it the most.
Sure it's going to be raw talent at time's.
Isn't that where the coaching challenge begin's??
EH
It doesn't take any parental support to hang a hoop on a city playground. That is where basketball players are made.
For a kid to really develop in baseball he needs to have access to standing in the box and hitting off quality pitching... many times, and being engaged in many baseball situations.
They are very different sports and to tell you the truth I don't see why MLB owes any sub group anything: are they developing camps on Native American Reservations?... Right now the game is booming in Asia and certain areas of the Americas... what is wrong with that?
For a kid to really develop in baseball he needs to have access to standing in the box and hitting off quality pitching... many times, and being engaged in many baseball situations.
They are very different sports and to tell you the truth I don't see why MLB owes any sub group anything: are they developing camps on Native American Reservations?... Right now the game is booming in Asia and certain areas of the Americas... what is wrong with that?
quote:They are very different sports and to tell you the truth I don't see why MLB owes any sub group anything: are they developing camps on Native American Reservations?... Right now the game is booming in Asia and certain areas of the Americas... what is wrong with that
I can not disagree with this statement.
I think this is where the TERM giving back to the community come's in.
Are should I say, Giving Back to the Game.
They need more and more participation from ExPlayers.
I'm not picking on any certain group??
But there was a certain generation of very Selfish player's.
The good thing is it's never to late to give back.
And i'm not talking Monotarialy.
Teach the game. Be there participating.
You have to give back, thats how it work's.
I think you call that,
Full Circle.
EH
naturally that is what they say, because then they can convince someone that throwing money at those aspects will fix things.quote:if you watched the game and listened to the commentary... They basicly said the reason for the drop in participation in the innercity was the lack of field's/space to play safely. Also the lack of Quality instruction
of course it HAS been done before (the money & RBI, etc), and things still aren't fixed ...
so now they need MORE money and the RIGHT people to orchestrate that "fix" ...
which will be a pretty high paying job/career for some insiders
My idea is you give back.
VOLUNTARIALY. LOL
EH
VOLUNTARIALY. LOL
EH
Please forgive the following if you don't agree with any or all of it.
FWIW, I have a lot of opinions regarding this subject and we have actually been planning to get deeply involved for a time now.
I really do think there is a problem and I think it’s a big problem if you really love the game. I want the very best players possible playing the game. It’s not a black, white, latin thing… It’s a baseball thing… The quality of the game!
The racial thing is slowly leaving baseball. We don’t even see players as black or white anymore, they’re just all baseball players. We have seen many great white players and parents and we’ve also seen many great black players and parents. We’ve also seen bad people both ways. To us they’re all the same.
To me it would be terrible if some of the greatest players who ever lived wouldn’t have played the game. Please don’t get back to pre Jackie Robinson because back then is was a racial thing and we should all be ashamed of that history. Now many black athletes are not involved for other reasons, some mentioned in other posts.
Nearly everyone interviewed last night, mentioned the problem of HS coaches forcing players to specialize in one sport these days. This has certainly changed a lot from years ago.
This is just an opinion and could be argued, but if I were to name the greatest and most exciting players in my life time, here’s what I would say…
Best all around player and defensive outfielder – Willie Mays
Most exciting defensive infielder – Ozzie Smith
Best catcher – Johnny Bench
Best pure hitter - Ted Williams
Best HR hitters – Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, (Babe was not in my life time)
Best base stealers – Ricky Henderson, Lou Brock, Maury Wills, etc.
Best pitcher – flip a coin but Bob Gibson would be on a lot of lists.
Baseball is above all sports when it comes to history. If we asked 100 people the following question, which question would be answered correctly by far the most?
Who was the first black player to play in the NFL?
Who was the first black player to play in the NBA?
Who was the first black player to play in the MLB?
The answer to those questions should tell us a lot and I feel fairly certain of which question would get the most correct answers!
Baseball history is full of great black players. I am a very big fan of the game. So from a selfish standpoint, I feel we should want every potential great player involved in the game. That includes all people and all races. It just so happens, that there is a lot of proof that many of the greatest players who ever lived happen to be black players. A fairly large percentage since the early 50s, in fact! So I have to think that if the percentages are way down, that we are going to miss many who are important to baseball and would help put the very best product possible out there for us true baseball fans.
Can’t help but wonder what baseball history would look like, had these great players never played baseball. Sure, some will say that someone else would have simply taken their place in the record books or in our minds. But it is in our mind and the results are obvious. How many of the future potential hall of fame players, maybe even the greatest player ever, will we miss if nothing is done?
So the problem I have, is a result of loving the game and being a big fan. I want it all… The very best possible players, the highest level of competition, the game regaining it’s past attraction and everything else that comes with it.
I agree with most everything said in above posts, but to summarize, IMO (like most things) the answer revolves around education. I really think MLB has done a poor job in that respect.
It’s a double edged sword… The more popular baseball becomes in the inner cities, the more interest in MLB. After all, most of the teams are located in the big cities. However, going to a MLB game these days can cost a lot of money. Much of the same group they want to attract, doesn’t have a lot of money.
All of us understand how great the college game can be, but that’s us and not the rest of the world. Maybe changing things for the better is impossible, but it sure is worth trying IMO. Education through promotion of the game at the youngest level is a good way to start that attempt.
Nothing is OK or satisfactory as is. Satisfaction can be a recipe for failure in my estimation.
FWIW, I have a lot of opinions regarding this subject and we have actually been planning to get deeply involved for a time now.
I really do think there is a problem and I think it’s a big problem if you really love the game. I want the very best players possible playing the game. It’s not a black, white, latin thing… It’s a baseball thing… The quality of the game!
The racial thing is slowly leaving baseball. We don’t even see players as black or white anymore, they’re just all baseball players. We have seen many great white players and parents and we’ve also seen many great black players and parents. We’ve also seen bad people both ways. To us they’re all the same.
To me it would be terrible if some of the greatest players who ever lived wouldn’t have played the game. Please don’t get back to pre Jackie Robinson because back then is was a racial thing and we should all be ashamed of that history. Now many black athletes are not involved for other reasons, some mentioned in other posts.
Nearly everyone interviewed last night, mentioned the problem of HS coaches forcing players to specialize in one sport these days. This has certainly changed a lot from years ago.
This is just an opinion and could be argued, but if I were to name the greatest and most exciting players in my life time, here’s what I would say…
Best all around player and defensive outfielder – Willie Mays
Most exciting defensive infielder – Ozzie Smith
Best catcher – Johnny Bench
Best pure hitter - Ted Williams
Best HR hitters – Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, (Babe was not in my life time)
Best base stealers – Ricky Henderson, Lou Brock, Maury Wills, etc.
Best pitcher – flip a coin but Bob Gibson would be on a lot of lists.
Baseball is above all sports when it comes to history. If we asked 100 people the following question, which question would be answered correctly by far the most?
Who was the first black player to play in the NFL?
Who was the first black player to play in the NBA?
Who was the first black player to play in the MLB?
The answer to those questions should tell us a lot and I feel fairly certain of which question would get the most correct answers!
Baseball history is full of great black players. I am a very big fan of the game. So from a selfish standpoint, I feel we should want every potential great player involved in the game. That includes all people and all races. It just so happens, that there is a lot of proof that many of the greatest players who ever lived happen to be black players. A fairly large percentage since the early 50s, in fact! So I have to think that if the percentages are way down, that we are going to miss many who are important to baseball and would help put the very best product possible out there for us true baseball fans.
Can’t help but wonder what baseball history would look like, had these great players never played baseball. Sure, some will say that someone else would have simply taken their place in the record books or in our minds. But it is in our mind and the results are obvious. How many of the future potential hall of fame players, maybe even the greatest player ever, will we miss if nothing is done?
So the problem I have, is a result of loving the game and being a big fan. I want it all… The very best possible players, the highest level of competition, the game regaining it’s past attraction and everything else that comes with it.
I agree with most everything said in above posts, but to summarize, IMO (like most things) the answer revolves around education. I really think MLB has done a poor job in that respect.
It’s a double edged sword… The more popular baseball becomes in the inner cities, the more interest in MLB. After all, most of the teams are located in the big cities. However, going to a MLB game these days can cost a lot of money. Much of the same group they want to attract, doesn’t have a lot of money.
All of us understand how great the college game can be, but that’s us and not the rest of the world. Maybe changing things for the better is impossible, but it sure is worth trying IMO. Education through promotion of the game at the youngest level is a good way to start that attempt.
Nothing is OK or satisfactory as is. Satisfaction can be a recipe for failure in my estimation.
So the suggestion has been made that "money needs to be thrown at the problem whether that's by getting fields, equipment, or coaching" in order to get more black players involved in baseball. Tell me, are those same people believers that money needs to be "thrown at the problem" when you consider how full of black players the NFL and NBA are? I don't see people crying foul that a large percentage of blacks are in those leagues and white players are a minority. Or the NHL has a bunch of foreign players too.
Look, I'm all for getting as many of the best players possible into college baseball and professional baseball. But I think there are other issues that need to be dealt with before we go dealing with inner city baseball. Let's start by lowering the crime rate in what is the "problem areas" both baseball and otherwise.
Look, I'm all for getting as many of the best players possible into college baseball and professional baseball. But I think there are other issues that need to be dealt with before we go dealing with inner city baseball. Let's start by lowering the crime rate in what is the "problem areas" both baseball and otherwise.
I agree ... that's selfishquote:by PG: from a selfish standpoint, I feel we should want every potential great player involved in the game. That includes all people and all races
which game?? ... others might think Ozzie's hands and athleticism were a sure ticket to the NFL Hall Of Fame
Help me with the math here --- I can’t get the numbers to work out. Let's take our high school which is about 50/50 black and white.
If we could increase the number of black players on our high school baseball team from 2 to 25 we wouldn't have more players involved in baseball ---- we would simply have more BLACK players (and less white players) involved in baseball. Our coach would have to cut (or phase out) 25 white players. The fan base/booster club would change too. Instead of the 25 white players' parents (50) and their grand parents (100) --- they would be replaced with the black players' parents and grand parents. With my son having played football at the same high school, I can assure you that number would decline dramatically because black parents at our school do NOT support their son's athletics like the white parent do. In trying to solve what we perceive as a problem --- we simply create another problem that could be larger. It would turn interesting if some of those 25 black players that baseball recruited were basketball/football players and they created a roster spot in another sport for those 25 displaced white baseball players --- OR ---- maybe the white players' parents would start another private school with a baseball program to where their sons could once again play high school baseball. Coaches, community support and $$ would soon follow the players to the private (mostly white) school. While the addition a private school might create more “potential prospects” for pro and college rosters, it wouldn’t increase the number of pro or college rosters available to white OR black athletes. As Lou Holtz says: There ain't no free lunch!
Fungo
If we could increase the number of black players on our high school baseball team from 2 to 25 we wouldn't have more players involved in baseball ---- we would simply have more BLACK players (and less white players) involved in baseball. Our coach would have to cut (or phase out) 25 white players. The fan base/booster club would change too. Instead of the 25 white players' parents (50) and their grand parents (100) --- they would be replaced with the black players' parents and grand parents. With my son having played football at the same high school, I can assure you that number would decline dramatically because black parents at our school do NOT support their son's athletics like the white parent do. In trying to solve what we perceive as a problem --- we simply create another problem that could be larger. It would turn interesting if some of those 25 black players that baseball recruited were basketball/football players and they created a roster spot in another sport for those 25 displaced white baseball players --- OR ---- maybe the white players' parents would start another private school with a baseball program to where their sons could once again play high school baseball. Coaches, community support and $$ would soon follow the players to the private (mostly white) school. While the addition a private school might create more “potential prospects” for pro and college rosters, it wouldn’t increase the number of pro or college rosters available to white OR black athletes. As Lou Holtz says: There ain't no free lunch!
Fungo
i guess i'm missing something. if these kids wanted to play......wouldn't they. if they won't play you can't make them.
as it should be ...quote:by PG: We don’t even see players as black or white anymore, they’re just all baseball players
tho still there seems a push towards race based equalization for MLB of the athletes in other sports who have supposedly "snubbed baseball opportunities"
w/all due respect any way you dress that attitude up it seems elitist
would Eck & Pedroia be kicking FGs or shooting thareee pointers?!
quote:w/all due respect any way you dress that attitude up it seems elitist
would Eck & Pedroia be kicking FGs or shooting thareee pointers?!
Bee, The above totally confuses me. I don't understand the point you're making.
Another problem is cost of playing a sport.
Basketball - anybody can find a basketball to play with and put a goal up anywhere.
Football - the school or organization provides the equipment needed to play.
Baseball - the player has to buy his own glove and bat. The better stuff costs money and while you can go to K-mart to pick up a glove does a kid (of any race) to be the K-mart glove guy on the team with Mizunos, Wilsons, Akademia or whatever else there is.
Baseball happens to be the #1 integrated sport out there. Baseball has whites, blacks, hispancis, asians but you don't find that in other sports. The NBA might be second in integration but it's nowhwere near MLB.
Affirmative Action is a good concept in trying to make things equal but it really doesn't work because you can't force it. Just like Title IX with women. It's nice you want to create a volleyball team for girls to play on but what if they don't want to play? You can't force them.
Basketball - anybody can find a basketball to play with and put a goal up anywhere.
Football - the school or organization provides the equipment needed to play.
Baseball - the player has to buy his own glove and bat. The better stuff costs money and while you can go to K-mart to pick up a glove does a kid (of any race) to be the K-mart glove guy on the team with Mizunos, Wilsons, Akademia or whatever else there is.
Baseball happens to be the #1 integrated sport out there. Baseball has whites, blacks, hispancis, asians but you don't find that in other sports. The NBA might be second in integration but it's nowhwere near MLB.
Affirmative Action is a good concept in trying to make things equal but it really doesn't work because you can't force it. Just like Title IX with women. It's nice you want to create a volleyball team for girls to play on but what if they don't want to play? You can't force them.
I think baseball could be a revenue sport. Today I went to an OSU/Georgia game played in Portland. There were 11,000+ at the game, which they said was a Pac-10 record.
A rare sunny warm day in early March, it was an incredible atmosphere, and a great game, won by the Beavers 5-4, winning run in the bottom of the 8th on a curve in the dirt that got by the catcher.
A rare sunny warm day in early March, it was an incredible atmosphere, and a great game, won by the Beavers 5-4, winning run in the bottom of the 8th on a curve in the dirt that got by the catcher.
that's ok ... like Fungo said, guys fixing their "pet projects" often don't see the bigger problems they create ... ie: you CAN"T bring more guys IN without displacing others OUTquote:by PG: Bee, The above totally confuses me. I don't understand the point you're making.
shorter white athletes forced out of MLB .. hopefully to the NFL "kicking", and/or to the NBA "shooting 3s" (certainly no spots for 'em as D'linemen)..
tho many could just end up bagging groceries at the corner store instead of playing
or should there be 80 man MLB rosters??
btw, if your quota plan would'a been in place yrs ago, Johnny Bench may not'a been on your list
btw II, don't forget about Willie O'Ree & the NHL
btw III, most here still think it was Larry Doby ... but who's counting??
btw IV, "WE" shouldn't be ashamed of history some old jerks whom we don't even know caused
OK, I understand better now. However, I disagree. I’m not very smart, but TOTALLY understand that when more outstanding players enter the arena, the competition increases and then some of the less talented are likely to be replaced. Protecting those already on the team by doing nothing to improve the team, kind of sounds like how some operate at the amateur level.
IMO… At the very highest level of everything should be the very highest level players and people. It doesn't matter if they are white, black or other, just so they are the best in talent and makeup! If we talk about the Major Leagues, it doesn't matter if they are small, big, or somewhere in between, so long as they are among the top 750 players in the world at the time. The bigger the pool is, the better the game will be.IMO The smaller the pool is the worse the game will be. MLB has increased the pool by leaving the country. I don’t have a problem with that, but still think the pool could increase within the country. It’s great the way it is, but it could be greater.
I really don't think the highest level of any professional sport should "automatically" be set up to protect any players based on size or color. Personally I would think the best of the shorter white players would not be affected any more than the taller white players. I would just like to see the very best possible product on the field, no matter what size, no matter what color. If players are replaced by better players, doesn’t that result in even better players on the field?
That is how I feel as a baseball fan!
Calling this a “pet project” without the ability to see the bigger problem, is a bit inaccurate IMO. The bigger problem (as in your example) is not a problem! Back in the 50s and 60s there were more small players than there are now. And what would be the difference between a small white player and a small black player? Should one have more opportunity than the other?
Anyway, I don’t expect everyone or anyone to agree with all of this. But just think what it would be like if everyone felt everything was just fine the way it is.
This is not a black/white issue for me, it’s more a baseball issue. I don’t really care what goes on in hockey or socker, but I do love baseball. I like football and basketball, but what the numbers show in football and basketball doesn’t really concern me, other than make me wonder how many might have been “great” baseball players if they grew up in a different environment.
The problem involves many things that are often mentioned. Money, leadership, specialization, facilities, etc. are all problems. In a perfect world we wouldn’t miss any of the very best potential players including the white kids and others who are in the same situation.
IMO… At the very highest level of everything should be the very highest level players and people. It doesn't matter if they are white, black or other, just so they are the best in talent and makeup! If we talk about the Major Leagues, it doesn't matter if they are small, big, or somewhere in between, so long as they are among the top 750 players in the world at the time. The bigger the pool is, the better the game will be.IMO The smaller the pool is the worse the game will be. MLB has increased the pool by leaving the country. I don’t have a problem with that, but still think the pool could increase within the country. It’s great the way it is, but it could be greater.
I really don't think the highest level of any professional sport should "automatically" be set up to protect any players based on size or color. Personally I would think the best of the shorter white players would not be affected any more than the taller white players. I would just like to see the very best possible product on the field, no matter what size, no matter what color. If players are replaced by better players, doesn’t that result in even better players on the field?
That is how I feel as a baseball fan!
Calling this a “pet project” without the ability to see the bigger problem, is a bit inaccurate IMO. The bigger problem (as in your example) is not a problem! Back in the 50s and 60s there were more small players than there are now. And what would be the difference between a small white player and a small black player? Should one have more opportunity than the other?
Anyway, I don’t expect everyone or anyone to agree with all of this. But just think what it would be like if everyone felt everything was just fine the way it is.
This is not a black/white issue for me, it’s more a baseball issue. I don’t really care what goes on in hockey or socker, but I do love baseball. I like football and basketball, but what the numbers show in football and basketball doesn’t really concern me, other than make me wonder how many might have been “great” baseball players if they grew up in a different environment.
The problem involves many things that are often mentioned. Money, leadership, specialization, facilities, etc. are all problems. In a perfect world we wouldn’t miss any of the very best potential players including the white kids and others who are in the same situation.
Keep in the mind that age old phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot him drink it"
I know many white kids who gave up baseball to play other sports or go into other endeavors while in HS---is that a sin? Not in my mind because they are doing something other than hanging on the street corner
I know many white kids who gave up baseball to play other sports or go into other endeavors while in HS---is that a sin? Not in my mind because they are doing something other than hanging on the street corner
PG - clearly your heart is in the right place and your thoughts are appreciated. My good friend Catfish has offered his perspective on this issue in the past. One of his points is that unless a black ballplayer has Barry Bonds or Derick Jeter talent they are often ignored by the scouting community - invisible if you will. I'll post his thoughts:
quote:posted by Catfish in October of 2005:
This thread has been very interesting. Every year around this time the topic of Blacks in Baseball, or the lack there of, comes up. And every year the same reasons pop up: Baseball is too expensive for Blacks; the lack of playing fields in the inner city; and, there is more interest among Blacks in football and basketball than in baseball. While all of these reasons may have minimal impact, none of them is the true reason why, in my humble opinion, there are less Blacks playing college and pro baseball. Honestly, guys, I sometimes feel like Richard Wright's, Invisible Man, on these boards when we talk about this particular topic. My take on this is so different from many of yours.
In my particular area of the country, there are more Blacks in the suburbs than there are in the inner City of Atlanta. The "inner" City of Atlanta is fast becoming half White. Give it another five years and it will be, which will be a good thing for Atlanta. Atlanta was once predominantly White, but Whites succumbed to "White Flight." I work with a large number of those who fled and they regret it. Many of them would like to move back close to their jobs but now cannot even afford to move back into the very house they sold because the property values in Atlanta have literally gone through the roof.
Now please hear me on this: Thousands of Black kids all over the Atlanta Metropolitan area play teeball/baseball during the ages of 5 through 12 or 13. We have baseball parks all over the place and each Spring they are teeming with young Black players. It is around the age of 13 that you see Black kids start to give up baseball. Usually, many of them have played baseball, basketball and football during those years.
Okay, now this kid is in junior high where the high school football and basketball coaches have a huge network to identify those young players who have the ability to play football and basketball. Once those kids have been identified the pressure is on.
I've made this point countless times before: Genetics (Height), for the most part, will determine which of those young players will play basketball. For the other good athletes, the high school football coach has only to point to the College and Pro baseball rosters to "prove" to the young athlete that he does not have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding in baseball. The football coaches will literally hound these players until either the parents step in, which was our case, or until the athlete gives in. Folks, believe me, it doesn't take much to convince most great Black athletes who also have football abilities to give up baseball. All the coach has to do is ask these three questions: "How many Blacks do you see on (any major D-1 baseball team)?" How many Blacks do you see on (any Pro baseball team)? To these questions the kid will answer, without even having to think about it, either "none" or "1 or 2"). Then the final question: "In which sport do you see yourself having a chance to succeed past the high school level and possibly get any kind of scholarship or even make a living?" I'll let you all answer that question.
Many of you may say that if the athlete "loves" the game of baseball then he won't allow anyone to change his mind. People, we are talking about kids who have dreams of succeeding in life. Many of whom, but not all, and certainly not as many as you would think, come from families whose incomes are below the poverty level. (As a sidebar, and I think many of you can attest, that just because your family's income does not meet the threshold that the government says you should exceed to get out of the poverty level status, does not make you poor.) These kids want to succeed in baseball and if a Black parent, even a poor Black parent thought that it would pay off in the end with some assistance in college and beyond, they would go without, if they had to, to provide there child with the proper baseball equipment, no matter how expensive.
The great Black athletes who remain in baseball definitely do so because they love the game. But even the love for the game is wearing thin for many of these athletes because of the very reason that bbscout said: Black baseball players are not being recruited by college recruiters! It is at this level that Black baseball players are being lost.
I will also say that unless the Black baseball player is a super stud like Delmon Young or a Prince Fielder or a Rickie Weeks they get ignored even by the pro scouts. The regular solid, good, Black baseball player is ignored by everyone. It's almost like a Black baseball player has to be a super stud already, to even get noticed and eventually drafted. If I were a Scouting Director, who was truely interested in increasing the number of Blacks in baseball, I would give my scouts these instructions: "We know that the first 10 or so rounds are reserved for those players who are rated very high, and that should not change. What I would like for you to do is this. Focus part of your efforts on finding Black players who have good solid skills, who are not your stand-outs, but can play the game. Draft them in the later rounds and let's see what happens." I'm simplifying this a lot but I think you get my point.
This seems to be a no-brainer to me. When will baseball recruiters and scouts realize that many Black baseball players have not had the training and instruction that many Whites have had because many baseball coaches in the Black communities lack the skills to teach them. Typically, Black baseball coaches didn't play baseball in college or professionally and truthfully don't really know a lot about what it takes to properly develop a good hitter or fielder, let alone teach the proper mechanics to develop a good pitcher.
Many of you know that I am a realist and I go over board to be fair. But I also call it like I see it. Some of the blame lies at the feet of the Black pro baseball athlete who, once they have retired, does not come back to the Black community and teach our young kids the proper way to play baseball as many of the retired White pro athletes do. I can name Tony Gwynn and maybe a few others and that's it. But, to be fair, there are not very many Black retired pro baseball players to begin with. So, what's the solution?
Until, we put into place some means, or some incentives, for college recruiters and in many cases, pro scouts, to look beyond the stereotypes and know that there are many good Black baseball players out there who love the game of baseball and only need a opportunity to get good instruction, develop and prove that they can play, then nothing will change.
...And so here we are again discussing the same issue that we discussed last year and still, nothing has changed.
CD
I do not agree with what you say about being ignored
I do not agree with what you say about being ignored
quote:Keep in the mind that age old phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot him drink it"
I know many white kids who gave up baseball to play other sports or go into other endeavors while in HS---is that a sin? Not in my mind because they are doing something other than hanging on the street corner
TRhit
TR,
I understand (I think) what you are saying. Of course it's not a sin. Kids will always end up doing what they enjoy the most and hopefully that is something productive.
In regards to this discussion I would prefer the old saying changed to... ("Bring the horse the water and find out if he will drink it")
The other night while watching the game, I thought that they mentioned that the reason the black player is not interested in playing baseball is purely economics.
I do beleive that scouts look for every available player to draft with talent. Drafting any player in a later round means years of development for little pay three- five years possibly. If he has no family support, or means to exist it won't work.
Black athletes wanting to further their education take football and basketball more seriously because it means an education at 100% and no debt when they leave college, don't know if this is the reason, but I doubt it is because black players are ignored.
MLB should bring baseball to inner city areas where ALL children are at an economic disadvantage. To appreciate the game, keep them from making bad decisions not just to develop players. Once you state that you are doing this to develop black players, you begin to make this a dicrimination issue. JMO.
I do beleive that scouts look for every available player to draft with talent. Drafting any player in a later round means years of development for little pay three- five years possibly. If he has no family support, or means to exist it won't work.
Black athletes wanting to further their education take football and basketball more seriously because it means an education at 100% and no debt when they leave college, don't know if this is the reason, but I doubt it is because black players are ignored.
MLB should bring baseball to inner city areas where ALL children are at an economic disadvantage. To appreciate the game, keep them from making bad decisions not just to develop players. Once you state that you are doing this to develop black players, you begin to make this a dicrimination issue. JMO.
2 things....
It's not unusual in WI to get 2000 people at a HS hockey game.
Concerning the baseball race issue.......
Baseball is a "parental persuaded" game. If you want to make a difference the idea has to be sold at the lowest level, and that's youth baseball, where parents are part of the equation. The game takes dedication and parent participation in those years.
I don't want this next statement to come off as being racially biased because that would be furthest from the truth...
While I don't live in a big city, with big city issues, our population is very diverse with very little poverty and that is why my findings are interesting because they are not eco-based. For the last 15 years myself and our LL has made a concerted efforts to make baseball available to every family regardless of race or financials through face-to-face discussions with parents. My conclusion is that the parents of minority kids early on are holding up many minority participation issues in regard to baseball, and that those issues will continue because it is a "revolving door".
Generally speaking the black parent in my part of the country is not interested in baseball for their kids. Until there is more parental involvement you will not see a substantial increase of minority players at any level. I'm not blaming the parent because we all push our kids into our areas of interest and baseball is not high on the list of minority parents IMHO. Again, I'm speaking in "my neck of the woods" as I am not qualified to speak for reasons in other parts of the country.
quote:cplz quoted:
As long as I've been alive, HS baseball in our area garners a fraction of the interest of the other two majors, basketball and football. Go further north and it also falls in behind hockey.
It's not unusual in WI to get 2000 people at a HS hockey game.
Concerning the baseball race issue.......
Baseball is a "parental persuaded" game. If you want to make a difference the idea has to be sold at the lowest level, and that's youth baseball, where parents are part of the equation. The game takes dedication and parent participation in those years.
I don't want this next statement to come off as being racially biased because that would be furthest from the truth...
While I don't live in a big city, with big city issues, our population is very diverse with very little poverty and that is why my findings are interesting because they are not eco-based. For the last 15 years myself and our LL has made a concerted efforts to make baseball available to every family regardless of race or financials through face-to-face discussions with parents. My conclusion is that the parents of minority kids early on are holding up many minority participation issues in regard to baseball, and that those issues will continue because it is a "revolving door".
Generally speaking the black parent in my part of the country is not interested in baseball for their kids. Until there is more parental involvement you will not see a substantial increase of minority players at any level. I'm not blaming the parent because we all push our kids into our areas of interest and baseball is not high on the list of minority parents IMHO. Again, I'm speaking in "my neck of the woods" as I am not qualified to speak for reasons in other parts of the country.
And yet we have Latino youths playing baseball and they come from households where there are only one or in many cases no parents
I think it all comes down to the desire and love of the particular sport on the part of the youth---if they want it bad enough they will make it work---I do not think it us a racial thing. I recall the days in my region when the young Jewish boy did not play baseball -- now there are many playing---the desire is there
I think it all comes down to the desire and love of the particular sport on the part of the youth---if they want it bad enough they will make it work---I do not think it us a racial thing. I recall the days in my region when the young Jewish boy did not play baseball -- now there are many playing---the desire is there
I got a chance to see two excellent ball players this past weekend on a very high profile college team in ASU. Mike Jones CF and Marcel Champagnie SS are as exciting to watch as anyone in college baseball right now. I think their presence on that team will go far in promoting the sport to black youths, and nobody is throwing money at ASU
Seriously though... these two kids are the real deal, and both are multi sport athletes. Check 'em out if you get a chance.
Seriously though... these two kids are the real deal, and both are multi sport athletes. Check 'em out if you get a chance.
quote:tr quote:
And yet we have Latino youths playing baseball and they come from households where there are only one or in many cases no parents
In many cases for Latino players baseball is the only game in town and hisorically the game and it's passion is embedded into their lifestyle and passed down generation to generation.
quote:so long as they are among the top 750 players in the world at the time.
Just curious,
Although baseball is "America's Pastime", would anyone have a problem if all players were Latin or Japanese players on visa's as long as they were the best 750 players in the world?
quote:thats-a-balk quote:
Although baseball is "America's Pastime", would anyone have a problem if all players were Latin or Japanese players on visa's as long as they were the best 750 players in the world?
Then it would no longer be called Americas pastime, it would be called sokker.
I appreciate that ClevelandDAD used a response that I had posted on this very subject a few years ago. I had not posted this time due to my travel schedule this week. But, on second thought, I'm not sure that I would have had anything more to add anyway.
One thing that I did notice while reading this thread, was the stereotypical thinking of many of you. Of course, you didn't mean to engage in stereotypes. But you did. When ever most of you spoke about Blacks, you spoke about poor Blacks. When most of you spoke about where Blacks live, you spoke about the poor inner city. It will do no good. But I will say it again. All Blacks are not poor and all Blacks don't live in the inner city. (Please, Lord, before I die let my hsbaseballweb family and I agree on these two facts.)
I guess the only other thing that I can add to this discussion is this: If ESPN2 aired the game between Bethune Cookman and UCLA to promote baseball to Blacks, they failed miserably! What they did do is show without a doubt that very few colleges, NOT EVEN BLACK COLLEGES are recruiting Black baseball players...and that's a shame.
I am of the opinion that if MLB wanted to increase the participation of Blacks in baseball, they could do so. But, as many of you have stated, if you don't see the lack of Blacks in baseball as a problem, then why fix something that isn't broken. Right?
Please excuse my sarcasm, but this gets old after a while. When people, ANY PERSON, can't see or even perceive themselves in a given situation, they loose interest and find something else to do, and in the case of baseball, something else to watch. When baseball stadiums cease to fill up and viewership continues to fall, I guarantee you that someone will find a solution.
The Black community of my generation, as a whole, rarely watched golf until Tiger Woods came along. Now the number of Blacks who watch golf has quadrupled. (Not my findings, but the findings quoted in a Golf magazine.) In my home, even my wife will watch golf now. Not only is she watching Tiger, but she's beginning to learn more about the other players in general, and she's learning more about the game of golf in particular. Isn't that a good thing for golf? You see how this works?
I love baseball, always have. But continue to fill the baseball teams with mostly Whites and Hispanics and the football and basketball teams with mostly Blacks, and in another generation or two, we might all be watching golf because there might not be many other options. I love to watch players who are diverse playing with each other and against each other. I love to see Whites playing positions other than quarterback. I love seeing a tall White person dunking the basketball. Did anyone really get a thrill out of the Bethune Cookman and UCLA game other than an oddity? A big college like UCLA playing a small Black college like Bethune Cookman. I didn't watch it. But, if I had tuned in, I would have changed the channel in disgust.
...And here we are again today, another year has passed, discussing the same old thing. (Have any of you ever wondered why this subject continues to come up if there wasn't something amiss?)
One thing that I did notice while reading this thread, was the stereotypical thinking of many of you. Of course, you didn't mean to engage in stereotypes. But you did. When ever most of you spoke about Blacks, you spoke about poor Blacks. When most of you spoke about where Blacks live, you spoke about the poor inner city. It will do no good. But I will say it again. All Blacks are not poor and all Blacks don't live in the inner city. (Please, Lord, before I die let my hsbaseballweb family and I agree on these two facts.)
I guess the only other thing that I can add to this discussion is this: If ESPN2 aired the game between Bethune Cookman and UCLA to promote baseball to Blacks, they failed miserably! What they did do is show without a doubt that very few colleges, NOT EVEN BLACK COLLEGES are recruiting Black baseball players...and that's a shame.
I am of the opinion that if MLB wanted to increase the participation of Blacks in baseball, they could do so. But, as many of you have stated, if you don't see the lack of Blacks in baseball as a problem, then why fix something that isn't broken. Right?
Please excuse my sarcasm, but this gets old after a while. When people, ANY PERSON, can't see or even perceive themselves in a given situation, they loose interest and find something else to do, and in the case of baseball, something else to watch. When baseball stadiums cease to fill up and viewership continues to fall, I guarantee you that someone will find a solution.
The Black community of my generation, as a whole, rarely watched golf until Tiger Woods came along. Now the number of Blacks who watch golf has quadrupled. (Not my findings, but the findings quoted in a Golf magazine.) In my home, even my wife will watch golf now. Not only is she watching Tiger, but she's beginning to learn more about the other players in general, and she's learning more about the game of golf in particular. Isn't that a good thing for golf? You see how this works?
I love baseball, always have. But continue to fill the baseball teams with mostly Whites and Hispanics and the football and basketball teams with mostly Blacks, and in another generation or two, we might all be watching golf because there might not be many other options. I love to watch players who are diverse playing with each other and against each other. I love to see Whites playing positions other than quarterback. I love seeing a tall White person dunking the basketball. Did anyone really get a thrill out of the Bethune Cookman and UCLA game other than an oddity? A big college like UCLA playing a small Black college like Bethune Cookman. I didn't watch it. But, if I had tuned in, I would have changed the channel in disgust.
...And here we are again today, another year has passed, discussing the same old thing. (Have any of you ever wondered why this subject continues to come up if there wasn't something amiss?)
that's an interesting observation ... others looking at the same data with no bias might conclude that even tho recruited ... most blacks don't want to play college baseballquote:by Catfish: What they did do is show without a doubt that colleges, NOT EVEN BLACK COLLEGES are recruiting Black baseball players...and that's a shame.
If I comment on this issue, the term misunderstood would be an understatement, therefore, RAKE.
To be an effective baseball player requires a dad first and foremost (remember Field of Dreams famous quote: "Dad do you want to play catch?") The talented black baseball players I know all have involved fathers and besides their talent, they are also some of the nicest kids you could meet. For whatever reason basketball and football attract a different following in the black community with a different kind of athlete as a result. It's probably a class thing as much as a racial one. There is a large middle class black community with intact fathers that don't live in the hood like all the ESPN commentators insinuated. Why are they not playing the game with their sons in larger numbers? Probably because football and basketball are easier games to learn and dominate is my guess.