College Coach Misleading

Thanks for the post.  It's another great reminder to us all (players and parents) to make sure we not only ask the typical questions, but that we also ask some of the more awkward ones too.  All too often we like what we hear and/or see so we don't ask the direct questions.  Truly sorry for your son's disappointment.  Hopefully, he makes this turn into something positive.  Good luck to you both. 

That sounds like a very bad situation. I am sure that your family is devestated. I hope that you can work something out for your son.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about what happened to your son. I see that you posted that your son was able to get a discount on his tuition due to you working at the school. Was your son offered a baseball scholarship too or is that not allowed since you work there? I am asking because without the scholarship the coach can always go back on his word and change his mind where as a scholarship would make it a lot less likely for that to happen.

During the recruiting process what questions did your son or you ask to quantify the coach's desire to have him compete for a position? Are you sure you were hearing what the coach was saying? Getting red shirted allowed another year of prospects to become competition.

 

The only guarantee is an opportunity to compete for a position and a roster spot. One of my son's high school teammates took a roster spot as a freshman walk on from a scholarship freshman player who turned out to be a dud in fall ball. 

 

I'm sorry to hear it didn't work out for your son. It's only over if he wants it to be. He can  transfer. 

So sorry to hear this has happened.

 

Was your son considered a walk on (no baseball commitment)? 

bonnie,

 

Thanks for sharing.  I'm not sure any words can comfort you or your family with what you have gone through.  As RJM stated the only guarantee any college coach can provide a recruit is the opportunity to compete for a position and a roster spot.  The lesson I learned from your post is to not assume any coach is going to tell you that your talent is appropriate or not appropriate for any team.   Appropriate talent level is something the recruit and his family need to determine on their own.  The coach is trying to create competition at every position to get the most out of his players and team.  His job is to win.

 

My son and I went to many college games when he was in high school to get a feel for the various college levels.  When I was on a business trip, I would stop to see college games to get a sense of what to expect.  It occurred to me that you will only see 12-13 players out of a roster of 35 for each team at any particular game.  You are looking at the best players these two teams have to offer at that point in time.  You have no idea what is the talent level of the other 22-23 players.   You have to guess.  I know many of my son's travel teammates did the same thing by attending games.  Not one of them or anyone else I've know has ever underestimated their abilities.  It is a real challenge for these players to self-evaluate or have someone tell them (without an agenda or $$ to be made) where they have the best chance to play college baseball.

 

Your son has some years of eligibility left.  If he is still passionate about baseball, I hope he finds the right program and situation.  Best of luck!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.  My son was a recruited walk on due to the tuition discount.  Employees kids do not get scholarships unless it's a full ride sport (i.e. football).  My son was also on a national travel team (more of an exposure team than winning) and played at the college coaches Georgia event.  We also attended most of the games of this college prior to my son coming and my husband studied the roster for several years.  My son did get evaluated by 2 pro scouts (lower level).  This college did cut 3 players at the end of Fall (2 scholarship) and cut 2 players (both scholarship) 1 week before my son.  One of these players was a transfer on scholarship from CA.  My son was playing behind a senior all fall and winter this year and last year.

 

There is a great deal to this story but I just wanted to get my story out there in hopes it may help someone along the road.

 

Again, thanks for all of your support.

Thank you so much for this post.  It helps to put everything in context for those coming up, and helps to make sure we ask the right questions to determine how strong the love is before committing.

We can only hope the word gets out, but this is a large country with more players than roster spots. The less truthful recruiters will always have the upper hand. I will give an example for 2013. School loses both catchers from 2012 squad, recruits 4 catchers, what do they do, they convert an outfielder from the 2012 squad to be starting catcher. How would you feel if you were one of those four catchers?

Bonnie,

 

I wish your son and your family the best and the strength to overcome this. I am hoping he will have the opportunities he deserves.

 

RR23

PUHD,

 

After re-reading Bonnie's situation and your example, I'm not really making the connection.  If I was one of those recruited catchers in your post, I would be really pissed at myself because I got beat out of my position by an outfielder.  Bonnie's story has an element of intentional deception by the coach.

 

I agree there are situations where less than truthful coaches can have the upper hand, but I think it is up to the recruit to do everything in their power to research the heck out of a coach, program and school.  Caveat emptor.   in your example, I don't get the feeling there was intentional deception unless there is more to the story.

YYES    LL  MENTALITYdoes exist among parents at the college level====it is a real shame

TR.

 

You are a class individual.

In line with fenwaysouth's responses, I think it's crucial that every recruited player and parent keep in mind that all a college coach really has to offer (beyond athletic aid) is a shot at making the team. That's it. Period.

 

...and the team's composition includes not only those players who are on the roster at the time the recruiting is taking place; but, it also includes the new players who will arrive as part of the next recruiting class. In other words, there are additional players in the pipeline who, in most cases, cannot be known by a recruit and who will be there as additional competition on Day One.

 

To illustrate the first point: When my son was being recruited, one of our unofficial visits was taken to a successful mid-major program. While there, the coach said, "Robert, I wouldn't say this if I didn't mean it; you would be our Saturday starter today. You might even be our Friday starter."

 

Was the coach saying that, if my son came there the following year that he'd be the Friday or Saturday starter? No, he wasn't.

 

All he was trying to communicate was that he really wanted my son to come and take a shot at it. That was it. Period.

 

If Robert had taken him up on the offer, he'd have been subjected to the very same competitive process everyone else experienced; and, if he'd measured up at that time, the coach's "prophesy" would have been fulfilled. However, if others had beaten him out, the coach would have assigned him a less significant role.

 

I know that this may be obvious for many of you; and, if it is, that's good. However, I also think that for some it's easy to hear what a coach predicts and galvanize that into something just short of a guarantee. It virtually never is.

An illustration of my second point from above:

 

A good friend and contemporary of my son's was recruited to a big name college team as a pitcher. Their first season, our team happened to play his friend's team; and I had an opportunity to chat with the friend's dad.

 

I asked the dad,"So, how's it gone for Johnny?" His dad replied, "Well, it was great until Johnny arrived the first day and discovered that 4 JUCO right-handers had been recruited on top of him!"

 

Johnny's dad had been surprised. He shouldn't have.

 

If Johnny and his dad had "[researched] the heck" out of the big name school, it wouldn't have been difficult at all to have predicted that there would be a number of JUCO players in the incoming class.

 

If they'd considered that in advance, would they have chosen differently? Who knows? Some would have, while others would have viewed the additional competition as a good thing; but, at least, it wouldn't have been the surprise that it had been.

Bonny,

 

It's too bad that things like this happen to our kids.  Whether our kids are cut from youth teams, high school, travel team, Legion, College, Professional baseball, etc, it happens to nearly everyone at some point and it is seldom a pleasant experience.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to follow the dishonest coach theory.  If I'm following this correctly your son agreed to be a recruited walk on and he committed the summer before his senior year.  He was red shirted the first year and then cut after the winter of his second year.  That is three years between the coach saying he would love to have your son on the team and cutting him.  People sometimes forget that we all, even the most honest, do change our mind about certain things, especially after three years. We all make mistakes and for a DI coach to keep his job and be successful, he has to correct as many mistakes as possible. That said, maybe cutting your son was a mistake on his part.

 

We have all seen players that we would have wanted 3 years ago, but not want as much today.  And we have seen those we didn't like so much 3 years ago, that we would love to have now.  Point is... Things change!  

 

None of this makes it any easier for the player or family.  It might even be a bad decision by the coach.  That does happen at times.  I just don't see anything dishonest going on.  Misleading perhaps, but coaches in some ways do mislead players.  Coaches sometimes say things to make their players more confident and comfortable, in order to get the most out of the players. However, in the end, that player still needs to produce what the coach is looking for. 

 

When a coach gives you his opinion on something today, don't consider that a guarantee  that he will still have the same opinion next year.  There is a huge difference between a promise or a guarantee and stating an opinion.

 

Once again, there are lessons to be learned for others who pay attention to stories like this.  Things like past newspaper articles are great memories, but what happens today still counts.

 

I hope things work out well for your son.  Hopefully he has other baseball options if that is his desire. Best of luck!

 

Excellent post PG, hope that folks make a copy and read it often.

 

So much blame is placed upon coaches because I do beleive that those that do so, don't really understand that college baseball is a business and the BEST player gets the job.  Always, that is how it is in this game. 

 

Fenway and Prepster also with good advice, a coach is offering the opportunity, it's up to the player to earn that opportunity.  If you think it's tough at the college level fighting for a spot, then you have NO CLUE what pro ball is all about.

 

In this game, NO ONE IS GUARANTEED anything.

 

Their is a lesson to be learned in everything that happens.  Walking onto a program has it's drawbacks,  and becoming a redshirt (unless injury for medical waiver) should be a red flag that maybe this was not the right program for you despite what the coach did or didn't say, and having a good scholarship does NOT mean you will get to play when and where YOU want.

 

I hope that everything works out for your son, thank you for posting, this should be required reading by all.

 

You will find coaches of every stripe, though I suspect most are honorable. The key of course is get a definite answer as to whether he has a guaranteed spot on the team or not. Even then it can be a crap shoot.

 

Some coaches are up front and say he will be given a chance to make the spring roster via the Fall team. Others will tell you he has a spot on the roster only to find out he told 50 other kids that, and some are sure to get cut. Still others will give your son a guaranteed four year roster spot regardless of performance or injury.

Let me give you two quick examples;

 

A program known for treating kids like a meat market tells a kid "he is a lock, so please come to our school and help us to win". This is the kids dream school and the coach knows it, so the kids and parents blindly take him at what he said without getting a definitive explanation what he means by a "lock". The kid is a position player and the day of fall ball there are 5 kids trying out for his position, 3 upper classman. The kid knew what that meant and worked hard, but was cut after fall ball and lost a year. He and his parents felt deceived, and knowing this program, they probably were. 

The second scenario is a kid who is told he has a four year roster spot guaranteed though back then the NCAA only allowed one year scholarship commitments. The kid is a speedster and unfortunately blows out a knee before the Spring season ever starts. As it turns out the kid is never the same and never plays a single inning for the team, yet the coach honored his scholarship for the full 4 years.

 

The moral of the two stories and others in between is that even if you ask all the right questions, the commitment to your son is only as good as the coaches word/honor.

 

To the OP, I hope your son gets an opportunity at another school, whether it be a D1-D3, JUCO or even an NAIA.

I wonder how much any of us can make from the situation Bonnie described for her son.  I doubt the situation is unique, but I also very much doubt any true learning experience comes from it which could be more generally applied.

When players get above HS in college,  JC or Milb, the competition is just darn tough.  Coaches play the 9 guys at any one time who give the team the best chance to win.  It isn't any different in most Summer Wood bat leagues, either. 

Most importantly, the process is just not a one way street. It isn't just the coaches word/honor in college/MILB and/or a summer wood bat league, absent the unique situation Vector referenced of a career ending injury.  It is also the word and effort of the player. As others have posted, he is  the one who is provided the "opportunity."  What he makes of it, in college or in a Summer wood bat league, makes the difference. He has the opportunity to control his destiny and to force his way into a line up. What we don't know and which is hard to explain in words or quantify is the amount of work on the field, in the cages, in the weight room coupled with the sacrifices and mental toughness which all have to come together to take advantage of an "opportunity."  When we think about it, this level of competition occurs in an environment of about 18-19 position players and 16-17 pitchers.  Every one of those guys wants innings, AB's and appearances.  The mental toughness in a highly competitive environment cannot be understated.

  Last June I posted about Nick Lynch. He was cut before the start of his college freshman season.  He would not take no and came back and tried out the next Fall and ended up  being a Big West post season and All American DH selection.

Guys like Nick Lynch are not isolated stories, but we don't hear about them very much, either.

proud dad----think what you want  but it is a huge no-nofor parents to get involved as noted at the college level    LL is over 

TR,

 

I am in complete agreement with what you say on this topic and many others as well.  In this case and others, I don't care for the way you state it to people like Bonnie, who is new to the site, doesn't know your grumpy nature and has posted just a few times.

 

If it makes you feel any better, not that you are going to listen to me, you can bust my balls whenever you like, however you would like.

I don't think blank statements like this are good advice. It is not a huge no-no for parents to still be involved with their son's life even though they are in college. There are times when parents are involved at the coach's choosing. My son's coach talks to me often about my son's options for next year as he'll transition from a Juco to a 4 year school. He wants to know about what us parents think about some of the different options he's getting because we have to help with funding etc....

 

As to the original poster, how do you know the parents initiated the meeting? The coach may have asked to speak with them as they appear to have a working relationship....... 

 

I get tired of the STAY OUT OF YOUR SON'S LIFE  BS because they are in HS or College. I am happy my son, and his coach, involve us as needed.

DW8,

 

I agree with you that a parent should actively be involved during the college selection process and I plan on watching what happens from afar once son is on a college team.  That being said, once he is part of a college program, there is not a whole lot of benefit nor opportunity for me as a parent to be actively involved with a coach and the direction being pushed by the coach and his program.  I would consider that to be meddling and believe it would be counter productive for my son, and furthermore, he would not want me to meddle. As a collegiate player, he can consult me on my opinions how to address a concern with a coach but he will have to man up and address it with the coach.

Proud Dad,

 

I agree with your comment and think it is good advice. The example you provided is a clear example of when a parent can be supported of their son in a good and productive way.  My experience has been that the parent has no real business dealing with the college coach on issues dealing with their son for most situations. My problem is there are times when the coach does seek out the parent and their involvement is acceptable and needed.

 

I have never discussed playing time, treatment, game strategy, etc....with son's coach nor would I ever (unless asked cause I really do know all!!!). However, I do have conversations with the coach and there is nothing wrong with it and it is not "LL".

 

I agree.

 

There are some parents here who's HS sons are very mature physically, emotionally, and streetwise. So it is very easy for them to say let the kid do everything, from filling out college applications, to fielding recruitment phone calls, letters, emails, decide which travel teams to play for, arrange travel schedules, etc. All the while they are suppose to get good grades, play HS sports(sometimes all year round), deal with girlfriends and teenage life. 

 

While I am all for kids being able to do as much as they can for themselves, I know from experience that some kids mature much slower than others. If everything is left up to them, they will falter. Additionally if they make poor choices now, it will effect them for the rest of their lives. That is a lot of responsibility to put on a 16-18 year olds shoulders. Plus much of their financial needs are still borne by the parents, so they certainly have a say in the kids immediate future.

 

This topic is a perfect illustration where an immature kid might not know the right questions to ask, and can lead with their heart, not their head(i.e. picking a school based on a girlfriend). And of course if their head is still full of mush, they will not be able to see the forest for the trees.

 

All that said, I agree parents need to turn over their son to the college coach once everything has been negotiated/settled roster spot and scholarship. However until then, many kids will not have the wherewithal to do everything by themselves.

PART  OF THE IMMATURITY COMES FROM PARENTS BEING TOO INVOLVED

I might add that a JC situation is far different from the D1/2/3 situation.   A lot of JC coaches will talk to the parents because they are local guys and  need the goodwill of the parents to keep kids coming into their program, so I feel its more of a marketing effort by the JC coach then anything substantive.  You could run your son into a real  dead end at the D1/2/3 level by intiating contact with some coaches.

 

My grip about the situation described by the OP is the apparent inclusion of his son on the roster only to be cut, apparently, without warning from the coach.  Thats a bit of a screw job by limiting the player's time to find a JC or other options.

TR, I'M GOOD ENOUGH, I'M SMART ENOUGH, AND DOGGONE IT, PEOPLE LIKE ME..

A good time to begin letting go IS during the recruiting process. And a goop time to allow your player to grow up is during this process as well.  Parents DO NOT have to contact coaches unless the coach has made specific attempts to reach out to them.  When it comes down to $$ time, then the parent can discuss those specifics with the coaches.  A big problem is when the parent doesn't allow the player and coach to develop their own relationship.  It happens all of the time.

If your son is not mature enough to talk to a D1 coach, especially from the larger programs, then he really isn't ready for that experience.

 

I don't see how the above applies in this situation, but I am going to assume that because of employment there may have been a relationship that existed between the parents and the coach.

 

The coach offered an opportunity, most likely he should have been more honest, especially when he redshirted the player last season, and allowed him to think that he had to get bigger when he probably knew he didn't belong there in the first place.  That's deceptive.

 

Taking a player and converting him is not deceptive. 

 

 PUHD, there are plenty of pitchers parents here who have watched position players convert to pitchers, which kind of eliminates the number of pitchers needed. This happens in HS, college, in the pros, but I don't see anyone complaining about it. Enough already. If your son is playing and happy that is all that matters. Let it go, he most likely has now its your turn.

I think we can both agree on this, and disagree at the same time.

 

The old school part of me says toss them into the deep end and let them learn to swim to the side of the pool. However I also know from experience that giving them swimming lessons can work just as well or better.

Some kids respond better to the stick, others to the carrot.

Some kids are more mature and savvy than their parents, others are as naive as a newborn babe. One could argue that the aforementioned is a direct result of parental involvement or lack thereof. However it can be the chicken or the egg scenario in that less mature kids need more help regardless of parental involvement. Some kids just wired differently and take longer to develop/mature.

Therefore I do not subscribe to a one size fits all approach.

 

Its a tough business. For everyone. Coaches, players and parents. What people need to take away from this imo is that it is a business. Coaches at the college level are paid to win and have solid programs. And in some cases solid is not enough. This is how they feed their family. This is how they make a living. One bad stop can be the end of the road for a college coach. There is tremendous pressure to win. There is tremendous internal pressure to be successful.

 

In many cases parents hear what they want to hear. In many cases people want something to work so bad they ignore the warning signs and only focus on the things they see as positive signs. I remember many years ago in my first team meeting at the college level as a player the HC stepping into the room and saying "Its great to see all of you on campus. I want everyone of you to have a great experience here. But the fact is that is not going to be the case. Some of you will not meet our expectations. Some of you will not feel we meet your expectations. Some of you will be cut or quit. And some of you will have a great experience."

 

It was something that stuck with me my entire life. I looked around and wondered who was going to have what. And it didn't take long to see that the coach was right. As a parent we all want our kids to have a great experience. When things dont go right for our kids it hurts no matter who's fault it is or if we can't even tell who's fault it is. But things happen for a reason. And if you get up and dust yourself off and get back in the fight you still have a fighting chance.

 

I feel for you I really do. Its a tough situation. But now you and more importantly your son has to figure out how to get back in the fight. Whats the next step to do that? Where is a good fit for him? Etc etc. Don't be bitter. Don't allow your son to be bitter. Remember its a business even if your not ready to be in a business or don't want it to be. It still is. I wish you luck. Pick yourself up "Player" pick yourself up "Parent" and get back in the fight. Its not over till you decide its over.

I strongly recommend that you heed Coach May's advice.  I have read many of his posts and they are good.   In fact, this post is worth all of us to read which is learning the ability to recover from misfortune.  I definitely needed to hear this for myself.

 

Thanks Coach May.

Along these lines...why would a coach redshirt a walk on instead of cutting him.walk on rhp converted catcher?no sholly loss no broken promise..nothing sinister here.don't. See why he would any more of his time unless he has something else in mind?  Thanx

Coach May, you are one class act. I truly believe if these "misunderstood" coaches had your style of coaching/personality much of the disappointed players/parents would cease. Sometimes how one disperses bad news is worse than the news itself. I always believed there were two ways to say no, the nice way and the other way.

 

going back to the originall post----does" come here we'd love to have you on the team mean you have a roster spot---  I THINK NOT

"Re-recruiting" is a fact of college baseball. My son's former mid-major team hit rock bottom last year. They finished at the bottom of the conference with a losing record. About 10 players were simply not retained from last year and replaced with new faces. The team is 13-3 so far this year. Some of the former players were starters, but simply were not competitive at their level. Most of the former players had red-shirt seasons on their resumes.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.  It been very helpful.  As I had said there is a great deal to this story that I didn't want to expose.  Since this happened to my son, several recruits have had stories regarding this coach.  There has also been a side comment in the local paper regarding this coach's recruiting/cut blunders. The coach left the door open for my son next fall.  Not sure yet what he is going to do.  He will lay his cards on the table with them and see what happens....nothing to lose.  Some other things have come to light as well that I really don't want to get into.  I realize nothing is a guarantee with college coaches and baseball.  We've traveled all over the U.S. and have been exposed to all sorts of situations for several years.  But, you should know that this coach (as well as the asst coaches) prior to red shirting my son said he could absolutely play D1 baseball.  The players (including 5th yr seniors one being the player my son was being pluged in to replace next year)on the team have spoken up to the coaches they know what happened and it wasn't good.  Also, the AD is aware of this situation.  As I said, there are no absolutes in baseball or with coaches but players should be treated fairly and with honesty (as honest as coaches can be in certain situations).  Anyway, thanks again.