college coaches calling pitches

What is a top 2 rounder doing in a college scrimmage?

Oh you meant MAYBE a top two rounder.

15 straight breaking balls in a game? Does he rely on it too much?
He may throw hard but where does he throw it, down the middle? Maybe he needed to work on his FB location.

Where do you come up with these things?

Its practice. Who cares. You may not be aware, but college scrimmages can and do consist of no breaking balls, wood bats, called pitches with the batter knowing what is called, 4 strike, 5 strike, 6 strike at-bats and combinations of all of the above. That's why they call it practice.

the pitcher was picked in the 2nd rd in the 2007 draft

Well put Dad04!

As Allen Iverson once said It's Practice Man.....We're talking about Practice!

Ok so if I think I know who you are talking about, go read his scouting reports.

He should have signed in the second. JMO.

I am thinking the coach is trying to convert him from a closer to a starter. As a starter, you need more than a breaking ball.

Yeah, but you know what Andy Frank, you need to do your homework before you post your scenerios, instead of making a coach look bad.

Put it all together and it is so obvious what the coach may be doing.

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Put it all together and it is so obvious what the coach may be doing.

Care to fill in the rest of us who are in the dark?

you need a breaking pitch as a closer too. As someone said, it is practice time to work on things you dont do well.

His breaking pitch was his bread and butter pitch, he needed better command in his FB.

He obviously didn't sign because he wants more money, and becoming a better starter would be his ticket. He may need the work on his FB, obviously.

If we can put aside all the personal animosity for a minute...

The question, if not the particular scenario, is legitimate.

Some college coaches let the players call the pitches (best choice, IMHO). Some coaches call the pitches, but allow shakeoffs. And some are "pitch dictators", calling the pitches and forbidding any shakeoffs.

Some of the coaches who call pitches do a decent job. Others don't. I have seen both.

So what does a pitcher do when he has a coach who calls pitches and forbids shakeoffs, but yet is not good at calling pitches? Or not good at adapting his pitch calling to the particular pitcher on the mound?

[Any answer that doesn't include "it depends" is obviously not a complete answer.]

Good question, and should have been stated as a question instead of using a situation where the coach was calling the pitches on purpose (in practice).

This was a question we asked before son committed. He was used to calling his own stuff in HS and certainly didn't want to have a coach start calling them in college.

I don't understand why coaches will not allow pitchers and catchers to work their own game. Maybe it is because they are too lazy to teach different pitches. This is how you LEARN, you don't learn by someone telling you constantly what to do, it takes the responsibility OFF of those in the game. But you have to have the stuff to begin with and trust in it.

For those who always argue that you have to have 90 plus velo to play D1, that is not true, you are more likely to win a spot because you throw more than one or two pitches for strikes before you throw 90. The more in your arsenal the more valued you are. Catchers who call their own game and handle pitching staffs well also have an edge for good scholarships.

It may mean the coach doesn't trust you, IMO. I think that some coaches will not allow the pitchers to shake off because they will usually revert to their most comfortable pitch and a pitcher has to learn to use all of his pitches, not just their best. CB after CB may work in HS, but in college or beyond, hitters pick up pretty quickly on what you will or will not throw. We all know successful pitchers keep the hitters guessing.

In milb, if a pitcher needs work on a pitch, they may have to throw it every pitch in a game for practice, regardless of whether they want to or not.

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Anyways his own team hit bullets off him, after they game they were like they loved hitting against him they knew, it was fastball all the time

Maybe it was a simple 4 points location drill. You can guess fastball all day, but you still need to adjust to the location of it.

If the kid was throwing meatballs, albeit 93mph, then maybe the coach explained himself afterwards to the young man. LOCATION

TPM

I thought your son was a pitcher---why is he calling pitches in HS?

We allow our catchers to call the game and work with them during the process---how else can they learn

My sos coach calls the pitches and has always had coach calling them. In college he cannot call off a pitch. All the pitchers have the coach call the pitches.
I was at a game where the coach called a CB on a LH batter and the batter bailed. He called it again and didn't bail and got a hit. After the game I asked my son what was the mistake and he said calling the same pitch and because the hitter was embarrsed he stayed in and got the hit. He knew what he would have done so he learned what to do. Last summer in summer ball he had a coach call his pitches who had never seen him pitch. FB after FB and he got hit regularly. He didn't know my son's game was off speeds and didn't call any. My son doesn't have a FB over 85 and is not going to last long without his out pitches.
He has never called his game in HS,Elite or college ball. Does the coach have confidence in him? Not the 1st year butlast year he did and his catchers were excellent . One was a senioron the Johnny Bench watch list.
It has nothing to do with the pitcher. Some coaches like to control the game. It is not about lazy because it is work calling the game.

I would add that one year we were at the Connie Mack qualifier in Troy NY.I noticed a lot of coaches charting pitches and our coaches were very predictable.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

I thought your son was a pitcher---why is he calling pitches in HS?

We allow our catchers to call the game and work with them during the process---how else can they learn

TR,
Sorry, I meant that he and catcher worked together and he was always allowed to call off a pitch. And that is where he learned, with coaches that allowed them the freedom to do so. In travel ball as sophmore, junior ,senior year they called their own game and they did in HS unless it was against one of the better teams.

IMO, nothing worse for the game then the catcher to look at the coach and signal back to the pitcher. Yes, young players need to learn how to do it, but they are usually not given the opportunity because the coach thinks he knows better. A truely good coach, IMO teaches this to his players. If you have an opportunity in HS that's great, if not, you need to learn it in college. This also enhances a catchers worth in the draft, IMO. The pitchers job is to work quickly at a fast pace to throw off hitters, pitch sequence is NOT that difficult to learn or understand.

IMO, a coach who does not let his players call their own stuff has no trust in their ability. JMO.

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So what does a pitcher do when he has a coach who calls pitches and forbids shakeoffs...?

Thats a good question and I have never seen an answer that was very satisfying to me...nor do I have one. Our son's HS coach didn't allow shakeoffs by any of his pitchers. I disagreed, but there really wasn't anything I could do about it. We talked about it, debated about it, argued about it...but it just was the way it was.

In college, our son has been able to shake at any time. Some games have been called (that is, the pitch call initiated) by the coach, others by the catcher.

A coach is the way he is...I don't see any way to win that argument in most cases. Best option I guess is for the pitcher and coach to discuss and it hopefully respect each others' opinions.

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I thought your son was a pitcher---why is he calling pitches in HS?

We allow our catchers to call the game and work with them during the process---how else can they learn?

I understand what you mean technically here TR. But pitchers often refer to their ability to work with the catcher (shakeoffs, rotation to pitch pitcher wants to throw, etc...) to call pitches during a game as "calling their own game." Nothing more than semantics.

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Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
IMO, a coach who does not let his players call their own stuff has no trust in their ability. JMO.

TPM. I think that this is true some of the time, but not all. In talking to our son's HS coach, I think he truly believed that he had more data on the bench about the hitter...along with more experience in the game of baseball and thus believed he was in a better position than anyone to call the game. I also believe that he got personal satisfaction in feeling he was directly influencing the game.

I really don't want to initiate a discussion about this particular coach. I just used it as an example as to why it might not originate with mistrust of the pitcher on the mound.

To be honest, I have read these discussions for years now and I really don't know if there is a right or wrong answer. I think the best scenario is when its tailored to the situation (who is the pitcher?, who is the hitter?, what is the game situation?, etc...).

It is a very common thing in scrimmages and in low minor league baseball. In some minor league play the pitchers are told they can not use their breaking ball and must use only fb cu. It is obvious this coach was trying to get the pitcher to learn how to locate his fb and not allowing him to live off his offspeed to have success. A kid I had drafted in 03 was not allowed to use his cb because he was being taught a cu and need to learn how to trust it and use it. Its a scrimmage folks. Its about learning. When this kid learns to locate his fb maybe he will be allowed to throw some breaking pitches.

My own particular feeling is that a pitcher is in the best position to be successful when he is committed 100% to each pitch selected. Who selects the pitch is not relevent unless there is a correlation between commitment and who selects the pitch. If the coach is playing hide and seek with batter scouting reports, the team might benefit from some sharing.

I hear ya TD.

Just that I have seen it both ways and IMO by the time kids get to college part of their responsibility is to learn about hitters.

If you play a team x number of times a year, and maybe face one particular hitter dozens of times in 3-4 years you should know by then what they can hit and what they can't. It's time for the coach to let go, this helps in their future development. This may not be for everyone, but 3-4 year starting pitchers and catchers have had to develop a relationship and the coach has to let them fly at some point.

My son's former pitching coach speaks frequently at the coaches convention regarding this particular theory. Once the coach "passes" off responsibility onto the players, they have a clearer understanding of "mistakes" and what should be avoided. If a coach calls the pitches and one goes out of the park, yes it is his fault, but what has the player learned? He's learned, it ain't my fault. If players work on their own, when that ball goes over the fence, they learned that they goofed and change what they did. Just to me a good system for more effecient work and a clearer understanding of your role.

Slow day at the office.

Very good points made here. I'd add that some coaches assume that positions 1 & 2 have too much to think about, and by calling pitches they're relieving them of some burden. Others just can't trust or relinquish control. Either way it short changes the players, and it lengthens the game. Ultimately it should be their game to call. Teach them to own up.

Since we're getting into talking about games how about this sceneario....

What about Programs that let the Catcher call the game, BUT don't allow for the Pitcher to shake off?

Any thoughts on that?