College Conditioning / Punishment

Are we talking D1, D2 or D3?  And are you talking about the whole team running or just certain players?

That coach will not win any popularity contest but maybe he is testing who is really committed to the program. 

Is that all ya got?     Yup.  So far, this year's version is more of the lengthy reaming variety to date but in years past, yup.

D1, whole team running. I mean its 2017, certainly don't want my son coddled, trust me.  But when its overly obvious you schedule "out of your league" games and then reprimand when you get hammered.  What happened to the "Auggies of the world" that can take the blame themselves, that they have failed the team for not preparing them. 

Uhhh... if we're talking about Augie G., yes, he would get in front of the camera and take the blame.  But, he was rather well known for then turning around and making his players wish they had never stepped on campus after a bad outing.  You can youtube some of the "high"lights of verbal lashings.  I would be VERY surprised if there weren't physical punishment at times as well.

Why is running 3-4 miles considered a punishment? My son's high school PE class make them do a 1 mile run and a 3 mile run per week, and the final test is a 6 mile run on a gentle up-slope. They do this regardless of weather. One time in the deep winter, my son (and many other kids in the class) ran in the morning;  after the run, their hair looked all white -- the sweat all became frost.

owlswin posted:

D1, whole team running. I mean its 2017, certainly don't want my son coddled, trust me.  But when its overly obvious you schedule "out of your league" games and then reprimand when you get hammered.  What happened to the "Auggies of the world" that can take the blame themselves, that they have failed the team for not preparing them. 

 

The Auggie's of the world who take the blame! LOL! Maybe that's what he does in public. There's a video that was online that says otherwise. When a coach attacks everyone in the locker room then says "it's all my fault" the players don't take it that way? 

A friend's son played at Texas. I was told a story that's so disgusting I shouldn't post it. If a coach did what he did today he would get fired, arrested and sued. 

Coaches aren't always what they appear in public. A friend's son played big time college basketball. He's in the NBA now. He said that his calm, composed coach you see on tv is Bobby Knight at practice.

Maybe the coach figured the effort wasn't there? Maybe he felt the focus wasn't there? Maybe he felt it would get them to bond? Maybe he was just ticked off and took it out on them? Maybe the coach is just a clown and decided to punish the players for something totally out of their control? Maybe the Men will just suck it up and laugh about it years later? Who knows. Men that age who are trained athletes at that level should be able to run 3 or 4 miles with no trouble. If not maybe that's part of the problem. Mine got woke up at 3am along with his team mates and were taken to the outdoor beach volleyball courts to do some "exercises" for "not being ready to play." I found out about when they had their team dinner after the season. The guys had a good laugh about it. Memories my man that's all it is.

I get the notion that it can create bonds, memories etc. I played college football so I am not just an immune parent. I had another son play college ball as well so I have something to compare it to.  It seems apparent to me that what has been going on the past 20+ yrs in terms of coaching just isn't cutting the mustard.  I subscribe to the Dr. Phil theory of just asking yourself  "hows that working for you" and if it isn't working,  then things need to change. Whether it be stepping down as a coach or trying something else like drills, hitting, etc not just make them track athletes. Oh well, enough of that I guess.  Thanks for your insight everyone!

I am not a big fan of this stuff.  It takes away from meaningful practice and conditioning time in season. 

So a player will now field, hit, pitch, etc., better because he remembers he doesn't like to run 4 miles as punishment? 

Older son had this stuff at his D1.  Relentless screaming and swearing from the coach too.  "Throw strikes motherf#$%er".  It's memorable and we'll all have a laugh in ten years about it.  I'm pretty convinced it doesn't improve performance though.

From parenting six kids, my take is that it works for some but not all.

In any case, our older son overslept on his very first college team meeting.  To make sure it didn't happen again, he got a fair amount of extra running over the next week or so.

It didn't happen again.

Running for oversleeping.  I'm all for it.

Punishment running for poor play in season as the OP noted, I think that's wasting valuable practice time. Just lazy coaching from my perspective...and I've been that lazy coach doing it.

Poor play ultimately results in someone else getting the playing time, IMHO.

Branson Baseball posted:

Older son had this stuff at his D1.  Relentless screaming and swearing from the coach too.  "Throw strikes motherf#$%er".  It's memorable and we'll all have a laugh in ten years about it.  I'm pretty convinced it doesn't improve performance though.

There's a big difference between demanding and demeaning. My son's travel coach (sounds like he may have played for your son's coach) was really demeaning to the kids. Thought he was preparing them for collage ball. Kids got tired of it. It's one thing to tell a kid he needs to pick up his play, another to tell them they suck and will never make it at baseball etc. 

And... even the demanding loses it effectiveness at some point. When it's nonstop the result is usually losing the team.

how old is your son??  Does he really need you worrying about it?  If he was 15 or 16 and you're paying 1000 a month for bad showcase coaches, then it might be a fair question. But I'm going to assume he is off to school to grow up and had choices? I mean we are 3 weeks into the season??

owlswin posted:

D1, whole team running. I mean its 2017, certainly don't want my son coddled, trust me.  But when its overly obvious you schedule "out of your league" games and then reprimand when you get hammered.  What happened to the "Auggies of the world" that can take the blame themselves, that they have failed the team for not preparing them. 

 

While I agree with most of the replies, I also agree that many coaches don't prepare their players properly. If that the case, he should be running alongside them as well.

Poor Play? This can mean several things. Was it due to the fact they were totally overmatched? Was it due to the fact they simply were not focused? Was it due to the fact they were simply not ready to compete? I don't know. Who makes that determination? Can anyone here read the coaches mind? I think we all agree that if a coach is not coaching and simply punishing his players for his lack of coaching that's not going to result in a positive outcome. If the coach felt his players were not focused during the game, or in prep leading up to it and he decided to get their attention by running them that's his call. Yes the line up card is a good motivator. But again how the coach decides to get his programs attention is his call and I would expect him to be a better judge at that than some people on a message board. But I could be wrong.

So what does a parent do about this? Other than post on a message board to see where other's stand. Losing should be all the punishment a player needs. Not being in the line up should be a good enough attention getter. But I don't know the whole story. Maybe this program is soft? Maybe the players are soft? We don't know do we? Let's hear from the coach.

Coach May points out the obvious, we don't really know all of the details.  Coaches not preparing players well happens.  As stated, running never hurt anyone, and a parent getting upset really shouldn't be upset.  It's not about us parents.  If the player feels that the team  was not prepared by the coaching staff, maybe it was a wrong decision to play for that program. 

My understanding is that running has become old school, doesn't accomplish anything unless rules have first been established.  I like the rule, if you mess up, you sit your teammates run. They won't mess up.

Running miles gets you in shape for running miles.  Sprints would be better.

How many "Owls" in D1 that recently got overmatched?  Why don't we ID the coach and then discuss his coaching resume.  If the team was "goofing off" at times, go ahead and run them - with the understanding that they could run more later on unless there is some improvement in focus.  I would assume running is probably one of the last things a ballplayer wants to do in place of practice.  Practice without focus is sort of meaningless anyhow.

This thread reminds me of a humorous, yet insightful, anecdote from my son.  On a travel team, age 13 or 14, he was two pitches into the first inning when the coach called time out and marched out to the mound.  The coach was a good coach but prone to verbal aggression.  He spent about a minute chewing my son out on the mound then went back to the dugout.  After the game, the other coach went to my son and asked what the head coach said to him on the mound.  My son's response..."I don't know, I just heard a bunch of swear words and then I stopped listening."

Talked to son last night and he reminded me of some specifics from one of his JC coaches... if they had a bad week (anything from someone being late for conditioning to playing poorly during the week) they would have a Friday a.m. "session" before normal conditioning.  4:30 or 5am, they would go to football stadium and run a series of timed events with timed breaks.  Stairs, lines, sprints.  Example - run 100 there and back in 30 seconds, 30 seconds rest.  Repeat ten times.  If you didn't puke, move on to the next event.  Then all went to normal 6am conditioning.

I'm not saying good, bad or otherwise.  Just saying it's not at all uncommon for coaches to use a variety of attention-getters and at some point, it's likely to be a little physical stress

As far as lazy coaching, I don't think that is the case in most instances.  The players are coached three hours a day, give or take.  But coaching, instructing, reps, etc. are fairly routine so you don't hear about the vast majority of time spent in that aspect.  You just hear about the exception events, like a particularly rough discipline, bad weather, big party/celebration, etc.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

How many "Owls" in D1 that recently got overmatched?  Why don't we ID the coach and then discuss his coaching resume.  If the team was "goofing off" at times, go ahead and run them - with the understanding that they could run more later on unless there is some improvement in focus.  I would assume running is probably one of the last things a ballplayer wants to do in place of practice.  Practice without focus is sort of meaningless anyhow.

I was waiting for someone to post about letting us know who the coach is.

Once again, we only know one side of the story, from a parent.

Why dont you just figure it out on your own?

Swearing at kids under 18 on a travel team is counter productive.  It is a substitute for not being able to communicate what you need to do to effectively to move the team in the right direction, I have done it as a coach and looking back on it I would change it if I could.

As for college teams, running miles is not the best way to do it.  Long slow runs teach you to be slow.  If they are not focused and need a shock to the system run them all day doing sprints.

That which does not kill you only makes you stronger. Eventually, if the team continues to underachieve, the world will think "Hmm, this is a really well conditioned track team that can't win baseball games."

I have no idea what happened to cause the running, but I can't imagine any kid on a D1 roster who isn't laser focused. They should be.

TPM posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

How many "Owls" in D1 that recently got overmatched?  Why don't we ID the coach and then discuss his coaching resume.  If the team was "goofing off" at times, go ahead and run them - with the understanding that they could run more later on unless there is some improvement in focus.  I would assume running is probably one of the last things a ballplayer wants to do in place of practice.  Practice without focus is sort of meaningless anyhow.

I was waiting for someone to post about letting us know who the coach is.

Once again, we only know one side of the story, from a parent.

Why dont you just figure it out on your own?

I was probably wrong is using the term "we" (Why don't we ID....) as I meant it more as a recommendation to try to get a better handle on how this particular coach goes about "managing" his team - name the coach and get feedback on the coach from a more comprehensive viewpoint.  Running, as a physical drill, probably serves no purpose and I can only assume that it was an attention getter.  Stated differently, the OP's concerns would probably be better addressed via a discussion of the coach's resume and the baseball community's opinion of that coach's abilities.  As has been pointed out, hard to make any real conclusions based on a single event.

Speaking of "Old School vs. New School", it is funny when you compare the two.  My son's HS staff played college ball for Ed Cheff at Lewis & Clark State in Northern Idaho.  Coach Cheff was a very successful NAIA Coach who was none to be very tough, but he won like 15 NAIA National Titles.  Coach Cheff was a regular speaker at the national coaching convention and was highly respected by his peers. 

The coaches used to tell stories of how if they lost, Cheff would stop the bus 3 - 5 miles from home, tell them to get off and run home.

I believe it is a "different strokes for different folks" kind of deal, and that maybe the coach had tried other methods to wake the guys up.  Using it as a tool could be effective.  Using it all of the time, maybe not.  I know when I played high school sports, I hated extra running, and it was effective to improve certain behaviors.  I don't know if it will help a SS field ground balls though.

I just hate correlating conditioning and "punishment." I also happen to believe, contrary to some coaches apparently, that 3-5 mile runs are not conditioning in any way that really matters to baseball players.

In contrast, the best punishment I've heard of was from the recruiting coach at a Big West school that did very well in the CWS last year. At their school, on day 1, they pair new or underclass players with veteran or senior players. If the frosh goofs, sleeps in, misses weightroom, doesn't make class etc, both he and his veteran partner get to watch practice from the bleachers. Considering how competitive playing time is at that level, imagine getting Wally Pip'ed because you had to watch your opposite number excel in a practice you missed because your frosh partner was late to a team meeting!

Coach told me it keeps trains moving on time for sure!

tres_arboles posted:

I just hate correlating conditioning and "punishment." I also happen to believe, contrary to some coaches apparently, that 3-5 mile runs are not conditioning in any way that really matters to baseball players.

In contrast, the best punishment I've heard of was from the recruiting coach at a Big West school that did very well in the CWS last year. At their school, on day 1, they pair new or underclass players with veteran or senior players. If the frosh goofs, sleeps in, misses weightroom, doesn't make class etc, both he and his veteran partner get to watch practice from the bleachers. Considering how competitive playing time is at that level, imagine getting Wally Pip'ed because you had to watch your opposite number excel in a practice you missed because your frosh partner was late to a team meeting!

Coach told me it keeps trains moving on time for sure!

That's a good one.

A good coach teaches accountability.  They all use different methods, the concept isn't really all that difficult.

So running for punishment is evil and will destroy teams?  I think that's what I'm getting from this.  Look I'm on the train that believes in more reps rather than running but I have and will continue to send players on runs if I feel that it will help.  One reason I do it is for my benefit.  If I get to that point I'm generally really pissed off because they are not performing at the level they are capable of playing and that is on them.  So I send them on a run so I can regain my focus and calm down.  It also allows me to look at my practice schedule and adjust it so we can stay on some sort of pace to get accomplished what I want done.  I could care less if it helps them become better players or in shape because that's no my goal for the running.  It's not about training or improvement but about regaining the mental edge that either wasn't there or was lost.  It's like anything else in that if you use it too much then it loses it's effectiveness.  When I send my players (and I'm coaching softball again this season) I will hear the players start talking about picking it up and getting focused.  If you do it right they will get it and probably understand. If they don't then there is a good chance they are selfish and immature.  Personally I could care less if they get mad at me for running them and if I do my job right and explain / teach WHY they are running and HOW to avoid it then it rarely is an issue when we do run.  

But overall I agree with Coach May in that in this exact situation we don't know the whole story.

Soooooo my son played for 4 years of college ball for a highly regarded coach. I am sure he dolled out all kinds of "punishments" but I don't ever recall knowing what one of them was. 

Just sayin'. 

Same here BOF. Only time that I know my son had to do anything like run. was before the season /practice started. Couch had a rule that you had to run a mile in less than a certain time. (no I do not know hat that time was or I do not remember.) If you did not make that Goal, you could not start practicing with the team. 

This was ore of a conditioning thing. The players that stuck to the conditioning/weight room schedule usually had no problems making the time. Those that did not, well lets just say, some of them started practicing a bit later than others. And if you were not practicing with the team, the coach was getting a look at the players that were. 

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

Same here BOF. Only time that I know my son had to do anything like run. was before the season /practice started. Couch had a rule that you had to run a mile in less than a certain time. (no I do not know hat that time was or I do not remember.) If you did not make that Goal, you could not start practicing with the team. 

This was ore of a conditioning thing. The players that stuck to the conditioning/weight room schedule usually had no problems making the time. Those that did not, well lets just say, some of them started practicing a bit later than others. And if you were not practicing with the team, the coach was getting a look at the players that were. 

This is a standard practice among  many coaches.  

During the 1980's, our Summer team, played in the Northern California top ranked Legion Conference [42 players later played in MLB]. One Summer team for the Sonoma County.

Before every game I had our players jog around the outfield fences.

Why: if an opposition player hit a possible triple, our OF were instructed to "kick the ball"

under the fence if there was a gap. Then throw his arms into the air and signal ground rule double. It worked once a year, but the objective was to teach our players "get the edge".

Bob

TPM posted:

  I like the rule, if you mess up, you sit your teammates run. They won't mess up.

 

My son played for a coach that employed this. 6th grade travel basketball. Those kids respected that coach, were very disciplined come game time, and kicked azz.

TPM posted:

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

Same here BOF. Only time that I know my son had to do anything like run. was before the season /practice started. Couch had a rule that you had to run a mile in less than a certain time. (no I do not know hat that time was or I do not remember.) If you did not make that Goal, you could not start practicing with the team. 

This was ore of a conditioning thing. The players that stuck to the conditioning/weight room schedule usually had no problems making the time. Those that did not, well lets just say, some of them started practicing a bit later than others. And if you were not practicing with the team, the coach was getting a look at the players that were. 

This is a standard practice among  many coaches.  

Thanks, it does not surprise me one bit. only reason I knew is he was home for winter break and was running every morning, I asked him was up wiith that. And thats when I got the whole story.

I like this myself. You work so hard to be a part of the program. It's an incredible honor to wear it, represent what it represents. You work so hard in the off season to get better as a player, to help your team mates get better. You invest everything you have to winning. You invest so much that the mere thought of not winning makes you sick to your stomach. You are so motivated to win that no one has to punish you to win. The thought of losing is punishment enough. You understand that anything other than your very best will not only not be tolerated by your Coaches it will not be tolerated by your team mates and it especially won't be tolerated by YOU. Your greatest fear is you wont do everything in your power to win and you will let your team down. Your in a winning culture that doesn't hope to win. Doesn't think its going to win. It expects to win. Punishment? Yep when you walk off the field and have to shake the hand of someone who just beat your a__.

If you have to make punishment a part of your program for failure to compete with all you have, for failure to be focused on the goal at hand, then you already have lost and it's not the players fault. You have failed as a coach.

If players or a player do something that doesn't involve the actually playing of the game that requires discipline then discipline. If your team cant bunt work on bunting. If your team is bad on the bags work on base running. If your team s ucks then you s uck. If your team is good your players are good. Own it when it's bad give credit to others when its good. That's what a real leader does. I don't believe in punishment for poor play. I don't believe punishment makes bad players good players. Disciplinary issues? Yep no doubt.

Coach May.....that's one of the best posts I've seen here in a long time....I would add to this thread, but I'm going to keep quiet lol

Oh, and I can't believe I've never found this before

Coach_May posted:

I like this myself. You work so hard to be a part of the program. It's an incredible honor to wear it, represent what it represents. You work so hard in the off season to get better as a player, to help your team mates get better. You invest everything you have to winning. You invest so much that the mere thought of not winning makes you sick to your stomach. You are so motivated to win that no one has to punish you to win. The thought of losing is punishment enough. You understand that anything other than your very best will not only not be tolerated by your Coaches it will not be tolerated by your team mates and it especially won't be tolerated by YOU. Your greatest fear is you wont do everything in your power to win and you will let your team down. Your in a winning culture that doesn't hope to win. Doesn't think its going to win. It expects to win. Punishment? Yep when you walk off the field and have to shake the hand of someone who just beat your a__.

If you have to make punishment a part of your program for failure to compete with all you have, for failure to be focused on the goal at hand, then you already have lost and it's not the players fault. You have failed as a coach.

If players or a player do something that doesn't involve the actually playing of the game that requires discipline then discipline. If your team cant bunt work on bunting. If your team is bad on the bags work on base running. If your team s ucks then you s uck. If your team is good your players are good. Own it when it's bad give credit to others when its good. That's what a real leader does. I don't believe in punishment for poor play. I don't believe punishment makes bad players good players. Disciplinary issues? Yep no doubt.

That was the most awesome and precise reply. Thanks Coach May, I concur!!!

I believe when players on a team give up early in the game, they deserve to be punished.  Players need to keep in mind there are 27 outs in a game.  

You cant blame the coaches and you cant blame the players. It takes an entire team to win.