College freshman positional player expectations

Difficult to say.  My initial thought was you don't know how well these guys did in the Fall practices & scrimmages.  Did their hitting/fielding performances grab the attention of the coaches?   Did they show up in the best shape of their life and make a very positive impression?  I don't think it is about doing your time and you will eventually play.  It is about performance, and being the best player at your position at that moment in time.  Then, you get to do it again the following year if you're lucky.

I think it also depends on the team.  Before you commit to a team, you should know what reasonable expectations are based on the current talent level of the team....doesn't matter D1, D2, D3.   I understand JUCO recruiting is a thing now, so factor in what the team has done historically with transfers and JUCOs.  This is standard operating procedure for any recruiting effort in my opinion.   

JMO.

It completely depends on circumstances.  Teams with 45+ players are going to operate differently than teams with fewer than 35.  Teams with a lot of upperclass transfers (which is a lot of them, now) will operate differently from teams that have expectations of players working their way up.  And then there are injuries, which can open up unexpected opportunities for freshmen.  After all, every team has to have backups.

The D3 and NAIA teams and players I've observed, some freshmen start (which often means bumping an upperclassman), and they often continue to be solid contributors in later years, but not always.  Some freshmen don't start, but grow into it in later years.  Some rarely play the entire time.  Some dropdown transfers (e.g. from D1) jump right in to starting, but some rarely play "even" at their D3 or NAIA.

@Dadof3 posted:

I know it has been spoken on here about going to a juco or d3 to get the playing time then try and transfer (if possible).

As a note, if you go to a juco, you do have to transfer after a few years.  However, there are not that many D3 (or NAIA?) transfers to D1s.  I'm not sure that transferring should be an expectation going in.  This is partly because in juco, you are facing pitchers with D1 potential.  If you are at a D3, you are facing D3 pitching, so you have to do something like play in a D1-heavy summer league to demonstrate what you can do.

Thanks anotherparent, great point about juco.  fenway, great point about how they did in the fall as well.

I'd say non-conference, mid-week games during the season are where first-year players start.  It might be too early pre-season; coaches are using that time to get their starters up to speed.  Be ready for that Tuesday game in April!

This is from the perspective of a low level D1 team this season. The team is grad heavy (most not transfers but let their existing players play out their covid years).

Sophs: There are several sophs that didn't get much time freshman year that are playing this year. Mostly pitchers, and a catcher. We have other sophs that played freshman year that are still playing and are everyday players.

Fresh: Our leadoff batter is a freshman. (I guess when you have a 6.27 60 that happens). Also a few fresh pitchers have appeared so far. We are 7 games in.

I'm sure things will change before conference play.

As others have said it really depends on team and circumstances.

Thanks, very good information.

The team my son is signed to has a freshman outfielder who's starting.  He'd very physically developed and the definition of, "If you hit, you don't sit."

So many variables.   My son is a freshman (D1) and the team was expected to lose multiple position players to the draft.   Unfortunately only one player went and the rest stayed for their senior seasons.  The freshmen have not seen much of the field except for one who plays a position we are not very deep in and even he is not a starter.   

It's pretty hard to determine where will be the best fit for your son at this point in time. I think that a lot of issues happening in college baseball these days will be resolved. He also has to concentrate on what goes on in the classroom. Grades are more important than the BA.

I also suggest that during his sophmore year he attends a PG event for a rating not a ranking. I know folks don't like PG but I honestly think they get it right more times than wrong.

Every program at every level does things differently. From what I have seen, fall is what can determine who will play come spring. This is where freshman can earn their time in the spring over upper classman.  And every player needs to be honest in their pursuit of the best program that also fits their academic goals. And nothing wrong with attending a program that develops future pro players.

It's important to take note of how many freshman actually get to play in the programs the player is interested in. You can pull up rosters then you can pull up stats.

But what you can do now is just sit back and enjoy your son's time in HS, be supportive of the good, the bad and the ugly games and when the time comes he will have developed a list of where he would like to play and earn his degree. Also play for a good travel team that is not just interested in getting their fee, but actually help in show casing your sons skills.

In my limited experience as a college baseball parent, if the player isn’t a stud, they should expect limited time, if any. They are competing against full grown men. D3, D2, and NAIA are loaded with transfers from D1. The physical difference between upper class kids and freshman is crazy.

Dadof3:

What are the goals of the Student/Athlete? What Summer League will he play in the Summer after his Freshman year? Will his Coach place him?

Do you have access to a Pro Scout, or an evaluator like Adbono or the sons of TPM, Another Parent, Good Knight, Iowa Mom.

Current College players are in the front lines and have the knowledge and experience to evaluate.

In California and Texas the Junior Colleges are "extremely" competitive. The D-2 line-up's are 50% JC transfers and "Drop down D-1 transfers.

Do your homework and research. Be prepared!!!!

Bob

Son went P5 before COVID and the transfer portal. When he was playing transferring 4 to 4 meant sitting a year. Players typically went 4-2-4. The  program was known for only filling holes with JuCos when they couldn’t find a top recruit for a position of need. My son entered injured. So, he sat out freshman year. That year three freshmen position players started. Two played MLB. One is still there. The third freshman started failing soph year and was eventually replaced and released.

My son’s freshman year was as a redshirt freshman. He entered college 6’1” 175. By his redshirt freshman year he was 6’2” 190 and a lot stronger.

His first six appearances were as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. After four stolen bases they started him in a midweek game against a mid major a couple of times to see how he hit. The second half of the year he started against right handed pitching. He started against all pitching starting the following year.

That third starting freshman went from starting freshman year to only facing left handed pitching mid way through soph season, to utility player junior year to not on the roster senior year.

All the players in my son’s class from his 17u team went P5 except the kid who chose an Ivy over Duke. Three started at positions freshman year. One lost his position by conference play. None of the pitchers started freshman year. Half of the travel team players transferred down to get more playing time someplace else. Of the fourteen freshmen in my son’s college recruiting class half were gone by junior year.

Now it’s harder to be a freshman in a four year P5 program.

@Consultant posted:

Dadof3:

What are the goals of the Student/Athlete? What Summer League will he play in the Summer after his Freshman year? Will his Coach place him?

Do you have access to a Pro Scout, or an evaluator like Adbono or the sons of TPM, Another Parent, Good Knight, Iowa Mom.

Current College players are in the front lines and have the knowledge and experience to evaluate.

In California and Texas the Junior Colleges are "extremely" competitive. The D-2 line-up's are 50% JC transfers and "Drop down D-1 transfers.

Do your homework and research. Be prepared!!!!

Bob

His son is a freshman and  limited to who he can speak with.

Thanks everyone!  TPM, definitely going to enjoy my son's hs years!

FWIW, the new rules regarding recruiting freshman will change the landscape.

Let's stop with the "what it used to be" to what it is as of today, as of this moment.

If you don't believe me, ask a coach.

My son is a junior at a D3 that went to the D3 World Series his freshman year (2022) and was ranked for most of last season.   

In '22, one freshman started every game; a second earned a starting spot after a few weeks (upperclass player got injured); a third earned a starting position late in the season after the 2nd freshman was out a couple of weeks with an illness.  #3 hit so well, an upperclass player lost his spot when #2 recovered.  We also had a freshman pitcher as the weekday starter.  When the team made the world series run, they were playing/starting with 3 freshman position players and one freshman starting PO.

Last year, there was one freshman position player who started maybe 1/2 the games.  He'd sub in when bats weren't hot.   There were two freshmen POs who got significant innings. 

Team just played the first three games this weekend - two freshmen POs each got two innings and two freshmen position players got one at bat in the bottom of the 8th when the team had a significant lead.  I don't see any freshmen position players getting any significant playing time this year.  The lineup changed a little this weekend with 10 different guys: 2 sophomores, 5 juniors, one senior and two grad students.  The senior has already announced he's returning next year.  Three of our juniors have earned multiple all conference honors the past two years.  It will take a real stud or injury for any of them to be replaced by a freshman.

it is impossible to look at a current team and determine your chance of playing the following year. Many teams are 50% new year to year now. Your best chance to play your freshman year, is to play at a school that you are too good to play for. It’s not just your ability, it’s your résumé. When there is a freshman with no experience up against a junior transfer, who has 50 starts under his belt, The freshman is not going to get the nod most times unless he had an incredible fall.

I read somewhere that 3% of freshmen position players earn a starting position at the D1 level. At the D2 level it’s probably less than that as D2s are heavy with JuCo guys. It’s probably a little higher than 3% at the D3 level as prior comments would indicate. Even in JuCo it’s hard for freshmen to win a starting position. Our Region 5 JuCo is currently 13-5, a third of the way thru our season. We have 2 freshmen position players that are starters. All the rest are sophomores. And 3 of our 4 starting pitchers are sophomores too. A reasonable expectation for a freshman  player at a JuCo is a decent amount of innings and at bats - and to start as a sophomore. About the same at D1 or you will be asked to leave. It’s uber competitive at any level.

Crazy!  

@baseballhs posted:

it is impossible to look at a current team and determine your chance of playing the following year. Many teams are 50% new year to year now. Your best chance to play your freshman year, is to play at a school that you are too good to play for. It’s not just your ability, it’s your résumé. When there is a freshman with no experience up against a junior transfer, who has 50 starts under his belt, The freshman is not going to get the nod most times unless he had an incredible fall.

This comment is spot on.  If I had a kid coming up now and baseball was an important factor to him I'd urge him to choose a program where starting as a freshman is a no-brainer.  Resume is critical because it gives a coach a reason to allow you to get enough reps to prove yourself.  If you don't establish yourself as a freshman you are then competing with everyone in the portal who can play your position.

I went to my freshman son's 2 away series and he has not played at all so far.  Lots of driving (2000 miles and counting) to not see him play at all... and it was so worth it to:

• have breakfasts and dinners with him
• watch him have a positive attitude and support his team in any way possible
• see him enjoying the experience of traveling with the team (a looong bus ride and a plane ride so far)
• hear his wonder at being given a debit card for his per diem (and offer to pay for dinner which I declined and told him he can use that money for other treats for himself)
• appreciate how he is maturing and learning responsibility by keeping up with (and even getting ahead of) his academics after years of skating by and barely doing the minimum in high school
• show how much we support him and enjoy being with him even if he is not playing or having success on the field - I kind of worried if his success during his youth and HS years will make him think that we see his value as being tied to his success

Now, I do admit that I can't help but wonder what his future is in the program.  Is his coach making the decision to redshirt him when he isn't given any meaningless at bats during blowouts?  Does this mean the coach has plans for him in the next years or does this mean the coach doesn't trust him as a contributor?  There are no one ahead of him in his position after the seniors graduate this year.  The coach recruited a lot of players in his position for 2024.  Is the coach preparing him to step into a meaningful role next year or will he get players from jucos and/or transfer portals?

But I can honestly say that I look forward more to how he handles these challenges (and even failures) than having success on the field (it would be great if we can have all of the above).  Seeing how much he's matured, learned responsibility, and especially how he actively sought out on his own and commit time to joining a local church fellowship, is so worth it and I strongly believe that athletics plays a part in shaping his character.

I think I shared all of that to say that I wondered if we would regret him not going to a lower level school where he is guaranteed to play a lot as a freshman.  No regrets and it's not even something I wonder about (as of now).

@atlnon posted:

I think I shared all of that to say that I wondered if we would regret him not going to a lower level school where he is guaranteed to play a lot as a freshman.  No regrets and it's not even something I wonder about (as of now).

I think this is a healthy attitude. I can tell you that I rarely miss a game. That said, over the past 3 1/2 years, I have watched my son have to be so resilient, and face so much adversity, that I’m not sure he loves the game at all anymore. Although I never dreamed I would say this, I’m not sure I do either. I think our most important job as parents,  is to be a constant. To not waver with the up and downs, but to always be there as a sounding board.  To remind our kids that they are are than this game regardless of success or failure.

Something I do think parents and kids should consider is that if you feel you may transfer, you really should do it by the end of your sophomore year if graduating is important. Transferring after that, many times, adds at least a year to your graduation date. it makes it about more than baseball, and a much more difficult decision junior year and beyond.

FWIW I believe the comment made by @baseballhs (about the best chance to play as a freshman is to go to a school you are too good to play for) applies to JuCo transfers also. And I have advised players/parents accordingly. I have trained a local RHP for the past 5 years. He is currently a sophomore at one of the D3 Dallas County Community Colleges that regularly appears in the D3 JuCo WS. He is 6’-5”, 230 lbs, throws a high spin rate 4 seam FB at 88-91, a knuckle curve, and a split change. He was all-conference as a freshman and currently leads the nation in Ks. He is good enough (physically) to play for a good D1 program. Last summer we had a discussion about his future and I framed it like this. I said, “as I see it, you have 3 transfer options after your soph year. You are good enough to make a D1 roster but I’m not confident that you would get many innings. You could go D2 and be a major contributor to a team that’s a contender for a conference championship. Or you could go D3 and be a superstar. Which if those options appeals to you the most?” He (wisely) chose the D2 option and I contacted 4 programs that I thought were good fits. He visited 3 of them and all 3 made offers. During this process he was contacted by a top 50 D1 mid-major and asked to attend a invitation only tryout for JuCo players. I told him to go (for the experience) and I told the D1 RC (who I know b/c he recruited my son) that it would take a money offer to get in the mix. They offered a walk on roster spot. I told the player to turn them down - and he did. Eventually. He finally realized that the D2 path was more likely to result in him having success. And if the success was crazy could he might have a future opportunity to transfer to D1 (and maybe get paid to do so) if he wanted. There is no doubt in my mind that he made the right decision.

I have seen several boys leave our program heartbroken, move to a “lesser named program”, and thrive. One was cut last year ( junior) in December. The summer prior he had been a pitcher in the Cape Cod championship game. .. he wasn’t a slouch. In the spring, he pitched in the D2 college World Series. I believe he is the preseason pitcher of the  this year.

What so many people don’t realize (until it’s too late) is that if you are a good enough player to be recruited to a top 50 D1 program, all you have done is gotten them to open the front door. From that point forward it’s a daily battle, 24/7, to maintain your existence in the program. And if you stub your toe just one time (on the field or off) the door is likely to slam in your face and you are no longer welcome. MOST college freshmen are not ready for that kind of pressure. Older players have been conditioned to it. But it can be brutal for a player at any age.

So is the old statement still true? The more athletic money they give, the more opportunities they will give you to succeed.

I see a lot of players make mistakes due to the assumption that they are HS phenoms so therefore they can play at a top 50 program. As noted, the pressure is tremendous. It really takes a special talent and reserve to survive.

There are many players out there that don't listen to their coaches and don't take instruction well.

You also have to concentrate on a program where the coach has a philosophy. Your son may not understand that so as parents you should understand how it works. Some coaches prefer freshman play, others don't. Do your homework. Ask questions.

In D1 baseball your physical size depends on whether you will play as a freshman. In other divisions it may depend on tools, not size. Now due to the portal it's experience. It also depends on the conference. The P5 schools and a few other conferences are a tough nut to crack for playing time.  Each coach does things differently. For example LSU uses the portal for players, Florida recruits Freshman. You really need to study those rosters and watch alot of ESPN+.

I definetly agree with starting at a program where you will play and get instruction.

JMO

@TxballDad posted:

So is the old statement still true? The more athletic money they give, the more opportunities they will give you to succeed.

Yes. And NIL money.

@adbono posted:

What so many people don’t realize (until it’s too late) is that if you are a good enough player to be recruited to a top 50 D1 program, all you have done is gotten them to open the front door. From that point forward it’s a daily battle, 24/7, to maintain your existence in the program. And if you stub your toe just one time (on the field or off) the door is likely to slam in your face and you are no longer welcome. MOST college freshmen are not ready for that kind of pressure. Older players have been conditioned to it. But it can be brutal for a player at any age.

The challenge never stops. My son started second half of freshman year hitting .306 with extra base power. Part way through soph season he commented to me he better start hitting. He was hitting .244 without showing any extra base power. He felt he was a soft weekend away from losing his position. Fortunately praying to Jobu helped him have a solid weekend at the plate.

It just really depends on the kid and the school.  Holy Cross has a freshman outfielder starting for them.  A lot of players have to sit until their Junior or Senior year and meanwhile: work & battle towards getting pinch hit appearances,  or late inning defensive appearances in blowout games (or both) in their freshman & sophomore years

Great information everyone.  Thanks for all the real life stories.

@TxballDad posted:

So is the old statement still true? The more athletic money they give, the more opportunities they will give you to succeed.

Really depends. Sometimes it’s a target if you can’t contribute immediately and a transfer with experience can/will for 25%.  I’ve seen some top recruited kids be sent packing. They might be able to get 2 transfers for one kid’s exit.

I thought about this discussion thread when I read up on Charlie Condon after seeing lots of posts about him in social media (he is having a very hot start).  I was surprised to learn that he didn't play at all as a freshman and was redshirted.  Not sure if it's relevant or not but here's the article FWIW. 

https://uga.rivals.com/news/ch...dy-to-have-an-impact

My input would be that the college game at the higher levels of D1,D2,D3and JC is nothing like HS baseball or travel ball.

The real question is what is the level involved for the college baseball, what is the baseline of the player, what is the baseline/expectation of the college coaches and how much does that freshmen need to and does  improve between late August and early January both from a strength/explosive perspective but also from a skills level. Of course the program involved makes a big difference especially if they have multiple returning starters with a strong bench returning.
A top college coaching staff will be candid with a recruit and provide solid input on all the criteria I mentioned especially how much stronger and explosive that player needs to get in a 3-5 month period while they are adjusting to a new and complicated process integrating into being a college freshman.

In effect, a college freshman needs to be much bigger, much, stronger, and especially more explosive  at a higher skill level by January of their freshman year to have a chance of competing for playing time.

My son had 3 abs as a D1 freshman. All in the 7th inning or later and when down a couple of runs and against set up or higher end bullpen arms. Also all 50 degrees or colder. At Michigan their first home series of the year (mid march...in the 30s), home against Iowa, and at Iowa. That was it for his freshman game experience. He voluntarily chose to drop to JUCO for development purposes (his coaches were shocked in the year end meeting when he told them he was considering it).

His experience at current JUCO has been awesome so far. All you can eat baseball at the development buffet! He hits whenever he wants and always has guys who want to do it with him (neither was the case at his D1). He is training with a bunch of guys who are dawgs who are at JUCO to be the best they can be and to move on to D1 and beyond. So many guys at his D1 were going thru the motions and worked relatively hard in practice and the weight room but most quite frankly were not (his opinion). Currently I believe that there are 7 on his team committed to go to D1 next year and there are offers out there to at least 5 guys (these are all sophomores).

Playing time at his D1 last year there was 1 position player who had 86 abs and pitched 20 innings, another who got 50 ab's. Several pitchers got 6-15 mostly meaningless innings.

My sons JUCO is currently in the top 10 D2 JUCO's (for those unaware D1 JUCO can offer full tuition and full room and board and D2 can only offer full tuition and needs based room and board. The best D2 JUCO's are competitive with nearly all D1 JUCO's but might not have the depth of the the best D1's.)

My sons team is 7-0 so far after 2 weekends and a midweek. 14/54 innings have been pitched by freshman. I have been very impressed by all of them so far and expect all 6 of them to be D1 after their Sophomore year. 7/16 hitters are freshman so far (I don't expect many more) and 69/213 AB's are freshman (with 45 of those AB's from 2 stud freshman).

@used2lurk - love the personal experience you shared.  Thanks!

The more you hit, the less you sit.

In general most college coaches say that the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores

Now that my son is an upperclassman, it’s fun to have perspective and watch the freshman.  It’s easy to tell which of them have the mental strength & confidence that is needed, as well as which of them the coaches think have a future.  

I see a few kids strutting up to the plate all cocky, not realizing in an early season game that they very likely will get only 5 at bats all season!  But you never know.  During my son’s freshman season one of his freshman teammates got an opportunity when a senior got hurt, played well and has started every game since.  It happens

At the same time, another kid struck out all 4 times he pinch hit as a freshman and literally hasn’t played since.

My kid is starting at 3B so far this year as a Junior.  We are just taking it a game at a time.  Nothing is guaranteed.  He might start every game this year, he might get relegated back to pinch hit duty/late game defensive duty, or maybe get put in a platoon.  We are just enjoying the ride.  At least if he does become a pinch hitter again he has experience in that role to build on, including a big hit in the NCAA Tournament

As a Freshman you gotta just be prepared and take advantage of whatever opportunities you get.  As a Freshman parent you might look at your kid and think he’s more talented than the kids starting ahead of him, ( and maybe he is!) but you weren’t there last year when those kids proved themselves in pressure situations.  The coaches of course were there, and that trust has to be earned.  Talent is one thing, that’s easy to see.  The mental strength to perform well in a big conference or tournament game is something that has to be proven.  

@used2lurk posted:

My son had 3 abs as a D1 freshman. All in the 7th inning or later and when down a couple of runs and against set up or higher end bullpen arms. Also all 50 degrees or colder. At Michigan their first home series of the year (mid march...in the 30s), home against Iowa, and at Iowa. That was it for his freshman game experience. He voluntarily chose to drop to JUCO for development purposes (his coaches were shocked in the year end meeting when he told them he was considering it).

His experience at current JUCO has been awesome so far. All you can eat baseball at the development buffet! He hits whenever he wants and always has guys who want to do it with him (neither was the case at his D1). He is training with a bunch of guys who are dawgs who are at JUCO to be the best they can be and to move on to D1 and beyond. So many guys at his D1 were going thru the motions and worked relatively hard in practice and the weight room but most quite frankly were not (his opinion). Currently I believe that there are 7 on his team committed to go to D1 next year and there are offers out there to at least 5 guys (these are all sophomores).

Playing time at his D1 last year there was 1 position player who had 86 abs and pitched 20 innings, another who got 50 ab's. Several pitchers got 6-15 mostly meaningless innings.

My sons JUCO is currently in the top 10 D2 JUCO's (for those unaware D1 JUCO can offer full tuition and full room and board and D2 can only offer full tuition and needs based room and board. The best D2 JUCO's are competitive with nearly all D1 JUCO's but might not have the depth of the the best D1's.)

My sons team is 7-0 so far after 2 weekends and a midweek. 14/54 innings have been pitched by freshman. I have been very impressed by all of them so far and expect all 6 of them to be D1 after their Sophomore year. 7/16 hitters are freshman so far (I don't expect many more) and 69/213 AB's are freshman (with 45 of those AB's from 2 stud freshman).

Very helpful, ty!