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32 replies

College Hitting Camp Problem

TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Just curious on some other opinions...

Several of my HS players were discussing what they were learning at a hitting camp at a local college. This camp is teaching them to land with their front foot closed (the side of the foot toward the pitcher...no problem with that)(They call it "keeping the front door closed)

Then they want them to "open the back door" by moving the back knee up and to the front knee".. Again, no real problem with this.

BUT...they teach that the front foot should stay closed all the way through the swing. The front foot never rotates or rolls over, you just bring the back knee kind of across and in front of the front knee.

I've been coaching for 20 years and I've never seen this taught. It seems that maybe someone is trying to make sure hitters don't "bail out" with their front hip, but I can't see how you would get full use of your hips to drive the ball.

I'd be interesting in seeing how anyone else feels about this, and I'd like your thoughts.

"Swing hard in case you hit something" Gary Ward

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floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
Sounds similar to something my son is being "forced" to do at his college. It is not a real power stroke and is not consistant with what pro scouts want to see. The front foot closed works fine, it is the back leg moving forward that is the real issue for me. Really takes the power out of the swing. I read an interwiew with MLB scouting bureau and he outlined what they look for in a high level swing.

Origionally posted by OldSlugger8 - Thank you, it is a great read

BA: What other hitting mechanics does you assess?

Marcos: His lower half. Anybody who's out front all the time and he's committing himself. I mean, that can be corrected. If he does a lot of things good with the hands, that's one thing, but if he's always out front, he's not going to be a good hitter. There's a classic stance for anybody to hit the ball and when he goes to hit the ball, his back leg is here, his front leg is straight, his foot is closed.

Full link: http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6616002781/m/9151022013
Last edited by floridafan
JY John YaYa100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
Several of my HS players were discussing what they were learning at a hitting camp at a local college. This camp is teaching them to land with their front foot closed (the side of the foot toward the pitcher...no problem with that)(They call it "keeping the front door closed)


This may be too closed.

I teach that the front toe should point down the baseline (or at least at roughly the same angle) like this.



You don't want this angle to change, and the foot to open, through the point of contact.
Last edited by John YaYa
JY John YaYa100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
There's a classic stance for anybody to hit the ball and when he goes to hit the ball, his back leg is here, his front leg is straight, his foot is closed.


Here's a side view of what this classic stance looks like...



Notice how his front foot is still closed but the rotation has pulled him onto the outer part of his foot.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Power, florida and John:

Thanks for the responses. John, I completely agree with the foot closed or, as you say, down the line...but even you admit that the foot rolls over to allow the hips to fully commit. And Pujols' foot will often open a little bit too if you watch some of his swings on video.

That's what I'm afraid they're teaching: "Look at this STILL picture of Pujols at contact; his foot is closed!!!"....but then they don't show them an instant or two later where the hips are allowed to rotate as the foot rolls over or opens up....

Does any one think that the foot would stay completely close AND flat with out any opening or rolling?
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
TCB,

What I would see, is serious knee problems at some point. Tiger Woods comes to mind. I'm not sure the knee was built to withstand that kind of punishment. I guess if you hit oppo most of the time it wouldn't be as bad, but I think a 45 degree plant is much safer. The mechanics of the lower body are basically the same as Pitching except for the need to stay behind the front leg in hitting and many, many Pitchers land on an open front foot.
Last edited by powertoallfields
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Continue with the video and you will see the front foot open up as the hips come through. The torque on the front knee is tremendous because you are hitting off a stiff front side. If you do not open up the front foot after contact you limit the force of the swing and you put undue pressure on the front knee. I believe in keeping the front foot closed even pigeon toeing it if you need to. But I also believe you have to open it up after contact. You can stand right where you are and try to take a serious hack keeping the front foot closed all the way through the swing. Now do the same thing and allow it to open up after contact and see the difference.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Coach May,

My point exactly. The problem is, I don't know if the college is really teaching them to keep the foot close the WHOLE time, or if they (being kids) are just hearing the first part of it.

The one player in particular talked about how they showed pictures of Ken Griffey, Jr., who lands the front foot almost pigeon toed. And I agree, Griffey does land that way, but he then rotates that front foot after contact; they aren't showing these kids that part of the swing....

Also, I believe the back knee should come forward, not stay in place and squish the bug, but this college seems to be teaching: "Pick the knee up and bring it up and across the front knee" this doesn't seem to carry the same force as driving the hips around; maybe it is just semantics, but I'm not crazy about it.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
Coach May,

My point exactly. The problem is, I don't know if the college is really teaching them to keep the foot close the WHOLE time, or if they (being kids) are just hearing the first part of it.

The one player in particular talked about how they showed pictures of Ken Griffey, Jr., who lands the front foot almost pigeon toed. And I agree, Griffey does land that way, but he then rotates that front foot after contact; they aren't showing these kids that part of the swing....

Also, I believe the back knee should come forward, not stay in place and squish the bug, but this college seems to be teaching: "Pick the knee up and bring it up and across the front knee" this doesn't seem to carry the same force as driving the hips around; maybe it is just semantics, but I'm not crazy about it.




As far as the knee being brought past the front knee, this could be just a drill to learn to carry momentum through the direction of the hit. I know Coach Cohen at Mississippi State has a drill like this, but it is not what they want you to do on an actual pitch. I had a Professional Pitching Coach demonstrate a drill where the player hopped 3 times on one foot, threw the ball and then hopped 3 times on the other foot in the follow through. It is a drill to teach momentum in the direction of the pitch and it works.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
A mid-size, highly reputable college with a baseball program that has a good coach who has been there for about 8 years. One of the reasons that I'm struggling with this, because they have a pretty solid reputation.

And I want to be sure that this just isn't my kids misinterpreting what they are being told at the camp before I tell them I disagree with what they're being taught.

Kind of a dilemma because one of the kids in particular has never been a strong hitter, and he now seems confident in his swing; I hate to say anything to him that will make him less confident, so I haven't messed with anything yet.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
Unfortunately, no....my players are using it as their actual hitting technique in batting practice.




That's just stupid! What kind of college is it?


This is a technique that is being taught at a program near here as well. I believe that it may have been developed by Gary Ward ( http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/5371062903 ) a respected coach from Oklahoma State.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Bluedog...thanks for the great picture. I think that photos like that are what are being shown to the kids. And I agree completely that having the foot closed and firm like that is a GOOD thing. My point is, that I don't think you can have a good, hard, complete swing if your foot stays locked in that position with no "rollover" or "rotation" of the foot.

Seems like, as Coach May said, something has to give. The knee/leg can't stay blocked off like that and still allow you to get your hips around very far.

My biggest fear is that those players will lose some power because they aren't getting as much of their core into their swing.

We aren't practicing right now, as we are not allowed to by State rule, but when we get started in a few weeks, I need to take a closer look at what the end result of this instruction will be.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
TCB1,

I apologize. I got yours and Floridafan's posts mixed-up. I was thinking your son was going to this school and your former players were going to this camp. It's your players, so you can do what you want with them. I don't think it would hurt to see how they perform in your practice before you say anything to them.

There is no way, however, that I would let my son go to this college if this is what they make the hitters do. This is a good example of why as parents we need to ask these questions during recruiting. I have a friend that had a son that went to a college where they wanted every kid to hit the exact same way and it killed his hitting ability and his playing time. He tried to go back to his old style and went 3-4 one game with 2 doubles and he got sat on the bench for most of the rest of the year, mop-up duties only.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
I agree Coach. But the issue we are talking about it telling players to keep it closed off after the swing is completed.


I know. To add something else to the discussion. What about those guys (coaches at any level) who use ONLY still pics to make their point on the toe closed. We all have seen the pics provided of Pujos and they are appreciated in this discussion. However, we all also know that video will show us a lot more. I think most posters in this thread are well aware that Pujos often rolls over on that front foot. How else could he handle all of the momentum he generates in that swing?
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I think its important to tell the whole story. Yes keep the front side closed (foot) but show the entire video. At the point of contact you want to keep the front foot closed. After contact as you follow through you are going to open up. If you are making a strong effort to keep it closed through the follow through you are going to lose a tremendous amount of power / you are going to be putting a tremendous amount of strain on the front knee.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
I think its important to tell the whole story. Yes keep the front side closed (foot) but show the entire video. At the point of contact you want to keep the front foot closed. After contact as you follow through you are going to open up. If you are making a strong effort to keep it closed through the follow through you are going to lose a tremendous amount of power / you are going to be putting a tremendous amount of strain on the front knee.




Coaches,

I don't have a problem with someone teaching to keep the front foot closed if they've had success with it in the past, but you don't believe you have to keep it closed to be successful, do you?
L LAball1,000+ posts
My son presently has his toes open at contact. He is driving the ball well, but this is in the cages. I want to change his toe a little bit closed , but im hesitant. I'll wait and see how well he does against live pitching. I would think the toes open would help bring more be more power to the swing, but difficulty covering the outside of the plate.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"






I think that front toe closed in important in that if a hitter's intent is to try to land open then they will be susceptable to "pulling off of the ball." I also think that thinking or practicing front toe closed creates a better link along the kenetic chain as that front knee lands soft, goes hard and then soft again. You do not have to have that fron toe open for the hips to activate. I believe it is also impossible in that during the follow through, that momentum built up is going to move that front foot to give the appearance that it is open OR you will notice the hitter, much like Pujos does, roll over on that front foot. JMHO!
Last edited by CoachB25
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
susceptable to "pulling off of the ball."




I think this is what the front foot closed is all about for those that teach it, but I don't see this problem with my students. If a hitter is taught to use his hips correctly, the position of the front foot is not that critical.


If I look at this hitter:



At toe touch, what do you see? To me the appearance of front toe closed. Naturally, I can't argue that he rotates into heel plant. I'd suggest that while I can't read his mind or feel what he feels, his intent at lift was to land front toe closed. Of course I'm not mind reader and so take that for what it is worth.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
susceptable to "pulling off of the ball."




I think this is what the front foot closed is all about for those that teach it, but I don't see this problem with my students. If a hitter is taught to use his hips correctly, the position of the front foot is not that critical.


If I look at this hitter:



At toe touch, what do you see? To me the appearance of front toe closed. Naturally, I can't argue that he rotates into heel plant. I'd suggest that while I can't read his mind or feel what he feels, his intent at lift was to land front toe closed. Of course I'm not mind reader and so take that for what it is worth.




Coach,

I actually like this hitter's approach. He loads/coils his hips and keeps them there until TOE touch, but he begins to open his hips into FOOT plant and ends up with a 45 degree front foot angle at foot plant. I believe Pujols keeps his front foot closed more on away pitches and opens it a little more on inside pitches. I just believe trying to keep it closed through contact is a recipe for knee problems later in life.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
I think it only makes sense, to me, to do this since you are reading the pitch as you stride and have a pretty good idea of location at toe touch. Since you know your hips will need to open more on an inside pitch and less on an outside pitch, it only makes sense, IMO, to open or close your foot more accordingly. Then again, maybe it happens because of the hips opening to a different spot???
Last edited by powertoallfields
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
A mid-size, highly reputable college with a baseball program that has a good coach who has been there for about 8 years. One of the reasons that I'm struggling with this, because they have a pretty solid reputation.

And I want to be sure that this just isn't my kids misinterpreting what they are being told at the camp before I tell them I disagree with what they're being taught.

Kind of a dilemma because one of the kids in particular has never been a strong hitter, and he now seems confident in his swing; I hate to say anything to him that will make him less confident, so I haven't messed with anything yet.


Why don't you call this coach up and ask him to clear it up? Just tell him your players are coming back saying something you are not sure of and want to clarify it. He's just like you and doesn't want these kids to leave there thinking something is right when it's wrong.

Since you are a local high school coach he would probably let you come watch practice. Then you can see exactly what is being taught to his players and take it back to yours.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
I believe Pujols keeps his front foot closed more on away pitches and opens it a little more on inside pitches.

CoachB25 and Power, I filmed a hitter I'm working with yesterday.....I found this interesting, as I never really noticed before....

On pitches up in the zone, he was landing closed with his front foot....And, on pitches low in the zone, he was landing open with the front foot.....

We didn't discuss this, at all....He was just doing it.....Weight shift is something I monitor closely...And, his weight shift was equally as good....

It seems pitch location was dictating the angle of the front foot....


In one of those twilight zone moments, I noticed this tonight with my daughter and her friend. We have taken the balls we feed out of a machine and have mixed buckets so that no two balls are ever in the same location. I too have some of these adjustments on film and am hoping to look more closely in the coming days. Power, if you saw video of my girl, you'd see a very similar approach and swing. Similar but I'm not saying that she is MLB material. Far from it.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Similar but I'm not saying that she is MLB material. Far from it.




Coach,

This reminds me of a Beverly Hillbillies episode with an ex Dodgers Manager. He was trying to recruit Jethro as a Pitcher and Jethro was telling him about Elly Mae having "great stuff" and Leo says, "yeah, but I doubt we could hide it in a Dodger uniform"! Anyway, I'd love to see her play sometime.
DucksBBDucksBBMember
quote:
Coach,

I actually like this hitter's approach. He loads/coils his hips and keeps them there until TOE touch, but he begins to open his hips into FOOT plant and ends up with a 45 degree front foot angle at foot plant. I believe Pujols keeps his front foot closed more on away pitches and opens it a little more on inside pitches. I just believe trying to keep it closed through contact is a recipe for knee problems later in life.


I agree with Power on this assessment. The only thing I watch for is that the hitter carries the hip coil to toe touch and then is starting to open his/her hips into a solid "block" at foot plant.
I don't really care about the final angle of the front foot.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I am a firm believer in the player being comfortable with himself in the batters box.

My sons frosh year in college they tinkered with his swing and he hit .268---he cam home and playing in the summer league he said "screw this" and went back to his comfy feeling in the box and tore up the league

He went back to college and convinced the coaching staff he had to be himself---the final three years he never hit under 300

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