College pitch counts

BBfam,

172 pitches is ridiculous of course, at any level. But a college coach surely should know better. The only time I could imagine that pitch count being understandable would be something like this: Championship game, senior season for a pitcher who is sure he has no hopes or plans to pitch beyond college, and begs to be able to help his team to this final win.

I will be far in the minority on this. My high school senior kid just threw 130, a 9 inning complete, and would have gone one more if necessary. He was blessed with a rubber arm and is not alone although a rarity. These kind of pitch counts used to be relatively common many years ago but of course there is a risk. You don't know the coach or the pitcher so I would not write him off.
My son and I at a young age decided throwing as much as possible, year round, varying the sorts of objects he threw was his path to building as much arm strength as possible, and the results have been impressive. He also is smart enough to take himself out if something does not feel right regardless of the situation, but he has never had any sort of injury and throws h.s, connie mack, and fall. an inning eater.

I think we need pitch counts, different for each arm because they are all different, for the simple reason that most kids do not throw like they used to


NOBODY PLAYS CATCH ANYMORE !!!!!

Quoted by a Washington Nationals scout on his website:

I have received several emails the last few days regarding pitch counts for players. I will give you my opinion and then list several others, you can be the judge. In my opinion, pitch counts are crucial to players at every level. The health of a pitcher is the ultimate goal. When the arm tires, risk of injury increases. The determination of when a pitcher has had enough is the sole responsibility of the coach in charge of the pitchers. A player with any competitiveness will never ask to come out of a game, the coach must either have a pre set pitch number or be able to recognize that fatigue has set in. Other factors that may determine the number of pitches are size, delivery, arm action, previous innings, days of rest, and the pitchers routine. Size: the frame of the pitcher is crucial, bigger guys can handle more work, that's why major league clubs try to draft and sign big guys. When i say big, it does not just mean tall, a big guy is a strong physical player, strength in the back and legs that will limit some of the abuse to the arm. Delivery: This is where we get into coaches that really understand the game. It takes a trained eye, or ex player to understand what a good delivery is. I see hundreds of pitchers each year and less than 10% have good deliverys. It may look good, but that does not mean it is. Arm action: again, it takes someone that is very good with pitchers to understand what good arm action is. Previous innings and days of rest: The number of innings and pitches a player has used throughout the season is a huge factor as is the days of rest. Pitching Routine: THE BIGGEST FACTOR IN PITCH COUNTS: does your team have a routine, College and Professional players have solid routines for their pitchers. These routines include monitored conditioning, weight training, agility, stretching, long toss program etc... They are done every day. I have seen about five high school programs around the country that do this. If your team is not, the risk of injury goes up dramaticly. One last point, if you are a high school player that usually means you play another position when you are not pitching, that also should factor in to the number of pitches.

THE FACTS:

College Programs: Most limit their starting pitchers 80-100 pitches (7 days rest)
Minor Leaguers: Below double A 80-90 pitches (4-5 days rest)
Above double A 80-100 (4-5 days rest)
Major Leagues: 80-115 pitches on the avg. (4-5 days rest)

There are exceptions to these rules at every level, but the majority stick to these numbers:

Johan Santana (former Twin and cy young award winner / current Met)
2006: most pitches in a game 120
2007: most pitches in a game 114

John Mclaren (seattle manager) "120-125 max for our major leaguers"

Ron Washington (texas manager) "you will not see any 120-130 pitch games by our staff"

Kevin Millwood (former brave / current ranger)
2006: most pitches in a game 115
has thrown more than 120 pitches in a game only five times in his career.

Vincente Padilla (rangers starter)
2006: most pitches in a game 118

from 1998-2003 the most pitches in a major league game for each season, remember these are major leaguers with exceptional routines, strength, deliverys, and experience:

1998 152 Livan Hernandez
1999 153 Pedro Astacio
2000 148 Ron Villone
2001 147 Randy Johnson
2002 150 Randy Johnson
2003 141 Kerry Wood

They have all suffered arm injuries.


Recommendations from the leading arm surgeons in the country:

9-10 50-60 max 4-5 days rest
11-12 70-80 max 4-5 days rest
13-14 80-90 max 4-5 days rest
15-16 90-95 max 4-5 days rest
17-18 90-106 max 4-5 days rest

proper conditioning, weight training, jobe exercises, on days not throwing.

Sometimes I wonder how guys like Seaver, Gibson, Roberts, Drysdale etc made it

Perhaps they threw every day?

Trhit--I agree that kids do not throw nearly enough. I remember growing up and just playing catch for the fun of it with my dad but you rarely see that anymore. It seems more and more players are relying on "newer methods" of arm strengthening and forgetting the art of "catch". But, with that said, I think that 172 pitches is extreme, even for college(or professional)pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by smalltown:
I will be far in the minority on this. My high school senior kid just threw 130, a 9 inning complete, and would have gone one more if necessary. He was blessed with a rubber arm and is not alone although a rarity. These kind of pitch counts used to be relatively common many years ago but of course there is a risk. You don't know the coach or the pitcher so I would not write him off.
My son and I at a young age decided throwing as much as possible, year round, varying the sorts of objects he threw was his path to building as much arm strength as possible, and the results have been impressive. He also is smart enough to take himself out if something does not feel right regardless of the situation, but he has never had any sort of injury and throws h.s, connie mack, and fall. an inning eater.

Sounds exactly like my kid, rubber arm and all. Growing up threw anything he could get his hands on. Ended up with a labrum tear after back to back 140+ pitch games his senior year in college (one was a 12 inning game). Had his share of success along the way with better than average mechanics so in my opinion, overuse was the culprit. Was fortunate enough to still get drafted but now a reliever. Hopefully he can make it all the way back. I always believed in pitch counts, but now more than ever.

Good luck to your son.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Sometimes I wonder how guys like Seaver, Gibson, Roberts, Drysdale etc made it

Perhaps they threw every day?

TR,
Mine just recently attended a pitching camp for a week, where they saw film on pitchers as you have mentioned, many ones with "classic" mechanics that had long careers.

My take on it may be that the game has remained the same, but the players a pitcher pitches to now have changed . Also velocity has increased and this also may put a pitcher at risk if not in top condition or using proper mechanics.

History shows that very few pitchers (in relation to those that have pitched in MLB) have had long careers, for some reason or another some are able to make it through their later years others can't. That could be the physical makeup of some or that as they aged they adjusted their game while others did not. It's pretty hard to tell what is the main factor in those that have remained in the game for so long.

However, the bottom line still remains the same, one never knows when they will run into trouble. Claiming that a young pitcher has a rubber arm, does not prevent future injuries. The whole idea of pitch counts is to limit the arms present use for future potential.

Some young pitchers can go 120 into a game each and every single game without being bothered, others cannot, that's just the way it is and college coaches and pro ball should treat each pitcher differently. That also seperates the starters from the relievers as well.

172, there's no excuse for that at all, especially so early in the season. If a college pitcher cannot get through a complete game within a reasonable count, (maybe max 120) he should be pulled. I am curious, what did the pitcher throw the week before, was his increase gradual or did he go from 90 to 172? That's where you run into trouble, and that trouble usually shows up later on.

Most of the people I know who felt that it was ok to let their player have high pitch counts and go the distance regularly while in their control don't have pitchers pitching in college or beyond.

More and more coaches are inquiring as to time put in HS on the mound, they don't have the luxuries anymore with ncaa limits to rehab pitchers for a year or two.

Does anyone here have a player who had a rubber arm in HS, not sustain a injury while in college or beyond? Or a rubber armed college pitcher not have issues later on? Maybe a few, which may prove the point that pitch counts, count.

I only want to add that so many arm injuries are cumulative (see Frank's post). To assume a young pitcher has a rubber arm and can throw forever is, imo, a perspective I would not take. My son has always been on pitch counts, increasing as the season goes on, and has never been injured. It could be said that he also has a rubber arm, but it has been carefully cultivated, tubed, Jobed, long-tossed...and monitored on pitch counts.

TPM is a very well-informed poster who knows a lot of people who've been down this road, and perhaps the golden nugget of this thread is from her:

"Most of the people I know who felt that it was ok to let their player have high pitch counts and go the distance regularly while in their control don't have pitchers pitching in college or beyond."

quote:

Originally posted by Krakatoa:
I only want to add that so many arm injuries are cumulative (see Frank's post). To assume a young pitcher has a rubber arm and can throw forever is, imo, a perspective I would not take. My son has always been on pitch counts, increasing as the season goes on, and has never been injured. It could be said that he also has a rubber arm, but it has been carefully cultivated, tubed, Jobed, long-tossed...and monitored on pitch counts.

Agree totally with you Krak ... our son was also always on a pitch count and when his dad was a coach in son's LL and travel days, any other pitcher under his care was carefully attended to ref pitch counts. Our son has endured 3 minor injuries along the way ... at 12, at 16, and his last month in college ball (following some extended outings) ... but has not had any problems since turning pro. We believe it is a result of coaches, and front office personnel at the pro level being cautious of overuse.

TR ...

I don't have enough knowledge of the pitchers you mentioned so I can't comment on how much they pitched in their day ... tho I remember the days of "complete game" pitchers being the standard, not the exception. But I was sincerely curious as to how you and your coaches handle your pitching staff(s) in terms of how long they go in a game. I would suspect that it is based on each individual pitcher's 'durability' etc. Would you be able to elaborate? Thanks.

I've always felt very lucky. When my son fatigues, it becomes immediately evident. He has worked on pitch counts, and has never thrown more than 105 pitches (senior in HS), and was still in the 90's.

Because of injury he will pitch his first game this weekend and is on a 50 pitch count.

I think son went one or two games over 100 in HS and that was late in summer as season was ending. In college his pitches and innings were monitored and he went over 100 pitches just a few times in 3 years. One CG his whole pitching career.

Mine entered HS about 8 seasons ago. There's a lot more knowledge regarding pitch counts and arm injuries than some of us old timers were aware of back then. I even think we would have done things differently, though we tried to be careful. One never knows how far your pitcher will go. If someone doesn't use the recommendations given today and thinks that their young pitcher can go forever in games because they have a "rubber arm" IMO that's not smart. Once they leave you they are out of your control, try to control what you can while you can. College starters can rack up pitch counts and innings quickly, as you see in the first post not all coaches use their best judgement at times.
Pro baseball treats their pitchers with care, preparing them for years for the tough loads they might have to carry someday. The injuries you see occur are not from those years, but years prior.

I think pitching is much like driving a car. If you follow the rules you are less likely to have an accident. If you push the envelope you drastically increase the odds of having an accident I don’t care who you are. There are a lot of "rubber arms" that have had their "rubber bands" replaced.
Fungo