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That's a good question. Here’s my take. I put K/BB ratio but I think the most important statistic is dwarfed by the scout’s opinion. I tend to believe that scouts are properly named. They scout talent, not read stats. Scouts probably use college stats to reinforce their opinion of a player and use them to sell their player but I still think a scout’s visual observation and personal evaluation reign are the most important factors of where a player will get drafted. To prove my point let's apply our final tally to someone like 3rd rounder Jason Neighborgall.
I agree with Fungo....K/BB ratio, but Scout's visual & personal observations probably carry the most weight.
O42
O42
I voted K/BB...but I don't think it matters...here's a story on two of my players...got a 5'11 185 LHP...FR, tops at 86 currently pitches 84-86 very dominate plus CH, plus CB, plus Splitter...will pitch 80+ innings for me this season...scouts luke warm! Another lefty 6'2 205, SO, tops at 86, can't hit the broad side of a barn, but when he's in the zone he strikes nearly everyone out...good CH, ok CB...has pitched 5 innings in the fall...0 in HS, 1/3 in college...with control will get some innings this season but primarily an OF...SCOUTS LOVE HIM! they want him to work out this summer, they want in certain leagues! they love his "size" most scouts in our area are no longer looking for guys to fill rosters...they are looking for future major league players! direct quote from one of my friends, whos a scout in MD...go figure!
With a great bias, as both of my sons pitch, I see all too often pitchers getting trashed by scorekeepers in college ball and summer wooden bat leagues. Very questionable plays seem to go down more often as as hits, converting unearned runs to earned runs, creating RBI's and inflating ERA's. Two short scenarios: (1) runners on second/third, grounder to third, ball fielded clean and thrown into the stands behind first. Ruling: batter would've beat the throw, two run single. (2) Bases loaded, two outs, deep fly to center. Centerfielder covers serious ground to get to the ball, gets the ball in his glove, bounces his glove off of his leg and the ball pops out. Ruling: three run double. Stuff like these two seem to happen fairly regularly.
I hope that the previous posters are right. Based on what I've seen, not much beyond walks and strikeouts seem consistently reliable from a numerical standpoint.
I hope that the previous posters are right. Based on what I've seen, not much beyond walks and strikeouts seem consistently reliable from a numerical standpoint.
The only stat that matters when considering a pitcher is ERA.
If a pitcher can get outs and keep the ball in the park, he can just flat out pitch.
I wouldn't care if a player never struck out a batter as long as he controlled the other team and kept us in the game. If MPH were the only barometer of a good pitcher Phil Niekro would not be in the Hall of Fame.
Scouts have to wake up and smell the coffee.
If a pitcher can get outs and keep the ball in the park, he can just flat out pitch.
I wouldn't care if a player never struck out a batter as long as he controlled the other team and kept us in the game. If MPH were the only barometer of a good pitcher Phil Niekro would not be in the Hall of Fame.
Scouts have to wake up and smell the coffee.
WillieBoBo,
But what of the pitcher that gets bases loaded, two outs, then an error allows a run, then three consecutive homers bring in 6 more? All would be unearned, pitcher has a 0.00 ERA, but got waxed.
I view ERA's, at least at the high school and college level, with a cautious eye due to inconsistent scorekeeping as I mentioned earlier. At professional level, scorekeeping is on a much higher plain.
But what of the pitcher that gets bases loaded, two outs, then an error allows a run, then three consecutive homers bring in 6 more? All would be unearned, pitcher has a 0.00 ERA, but got waxed.
I view ERA's, at least at the high school and college level, with a cautious eye due to inconsistent scorekeeping as I mentioned earlier. At professional level, scorekeeping is on a much higher plain.
I don't believe scouts look at stats at all-except maybe the stats that they personally observe. They have no way of knowing what the competition
was that the pitcher achieved their success(or lack of)against.
Fungo hit the nail on the head with Neighborgal from GT. Third round draft
pick and still has trouble finding the strike zone but a 95 to 98 mph is hard to teach.
IMO they look for #1-velocity, #2-body make up, #3-off speed pitch(quality), #4-durability.
However, that being said, if a pitcher in one of the top conferences is a weekend pitcher with SO to IP ratio of over 1 then it would certainly indicate that he has decent velocity or a very good curve or change and has
achieved it against some pretty stiff college competition.
Hokie, I'm with you on the ERA deal. One bad game can mess up an ERA for the whole season and a rediculous ruling by an official scorer can be the cause of it. Just because my sons are pitchers doesn't have any bearing
on my feelings.
was that the pitcher achieved their success(or lack of)against.
Fungo hit the nail on the head with Neighborgal from GT. Third round draft
pick and still has trouble finding the strike zone but a 95 to 98 mph is hard to teach.
IMO they look for #1-velocity, #2-body make up, #3-off speed pitch(quality), #4-durability.
However, that being said, if a pitcher in one of the top conferences is a weekend pitcher with SO to IP ratio of over 1 then it would certainly indicate that he has decent velocity or a very good curve or change and has
achieved it against some pretty stiff college competition.
Hokie, I'm with you on the ERA deal. One bad game can mess up an ERA for the whole season and a rediculous ruling by an official scorer can be the cause of it. Just because my sons are pitchers doesn't have any bearing
on my feelings.
pro scouts don't care about stats...look at size and velocity.
quote:Hokie, I'm with you on the ERA deal. One bad game can mess up an ERA for the whole season and a rediculous ruling by an official scorer can be the cause of it.
Moc:
Yeah...just what is with some of these score keepers.... geeezzzzzzzz
I believe that scouts look at velocity as the most important stat. I know guys drafted last year that hit 91-92 and lsoe evry game I have seen them pitch. I know a guy who is in the nineties and can hit the zone. I watched him for 5-6 years. He is a great kid and steals the show at all the showcases and I have never seen him get past the 2nd inning. The last showcase he was in the second ining and loaded the bases for the 3rd time. My son went in with 0 out and cleaned the mess up and guess who got all the attention. The 1st guy is in A ball and has an ERA over 11. This guy was suspended 2 times by his summer team for behaviour issues and that had no bearing on thye scouts.The 2nd finished 2 YRS at JUCO last spring and his results were the same as I was used to. I have seen him in almost every game walk in 2-4 runs in 2 innings or less. Several times 6 straight walks. Our coaches tend to give our pitchers a chance to work his way out of a jam. He had a ML scout who helped coach our team work with him and still could not get him to throw strikes.
My opinion is ERA is the most important Stat followed closly by Ks if the number is high. Balls don't mean much as long as the number is not too high.
Yes all things get factored in such as score keeper, competition and pitchers can have bad days (low energy etc). I have driven my son to an evening game and he is yawning and streached out in the passenger seat falling asleep and I am thinking this should be interesting.
Nothing can really replace the scouts observing the player in games at a high level of competition. I do believe that college stats are vey important if you are in a decent conference.
My opinion is ERA is the most important Stat followed closly by Ks if the number is high. Balls don't mean much as long as the number is not too high.
Yes all things get factored in such as score keeper, competition and pitchers can have bad days (low energy etc). I have driven my son to an evening game and he is yawning and streached out in the passenger seat falling asleep and I am thinking this should be interesting.
Nothing can really replace the scouts observing the player in games at a high level of competition. I do believe that college stats are vey important if you are in a decent conference.
.
Hate to be a broken record but we're back to one of my favorite topics/pet peeves...qualifing velocities.
Good postings and good examples have been made regarding some VERY successful DI pitchers and high end schools who throw in the low to mid 80's. They probably have wins, bodies, experience, great stats.
I ask you...Will they get seriously drafted?
.
Hate to be a broken record but we're back to one of my favorite topics/pet peeves...qualifing velocities.
Good postings and good examples have been made regarding some VERY successful DI pitchers and high end schools who throw in the low to mid 80's. They probably have wins, bodies, experience, great stats.
I ask you...Will they get seriously drafted?
.
What did one local scout tell me? "Stats are for grandmothers and newspapers."
I doubt he meant it in an absolute sense, but I think he was driving home a point to me. He also was not from a "Moneyball" team.
I doubt he meant it in an absolute sense, but I think he was driving home a point to me. He also was not from a "Moneyball" team.
I don't believe velocity is a "stat" and didn't want to get into the velocity debate again.
I would love to hear bbscouts take on this.
I was recently told, taking out the human factor, lookingat all stats,that strike out to walk ratio can determine a pitcher's control and effective use of pitches. The other's are important, but is determined by difficulty/weekend/weekday performance. It was an opinion, not necessarily a fact, as we see in Fungo's example.
I would love to hear bbscouts take on this.
I was recently told, taking out the human factor, lookingat all stats,that strike out to walk ratio can determine a pitcher's control and effective use of pitches. The other's are important, but is determined by difficulty/weekend/weekday performance. It was an opinion, not necessarily a fact, as we see in Fungo's example.
Go to "DRaft Tracker" and view the videos of the pitchers for the last couple years and you will see what they actually do in regards to velocity.
One of the best pitchers who went to my son's college was a "Barely Break 80" pitcher who was drafted. He went 7-2 in his 1st year at A ball. He broke several records at college.
The fact that this school had a low velocity pitcher with great success was one of the reasons we liked the school so much and that they played against some top quality schools.
The walk thing dosen't tell the story about control in all cases. There are BB and there are BB. In one inning this fall my son had 2 Ks 2BB and a pop up. Is that as bad as it looks ? No the coach said he did great because his pitch location was great. All around the zone, not giving in and throwing one that was hittable just to get the K. I have always preached this and you should not be afraid to locate even if it means giving up a BB.
To me W/L record is more of a team stat but does reflect as a part of the pitchers ability. If you pitch for a low production team you will get a skewed number. Stats should be a part of the picture but not the whole story.
One of the best pitchers who went to my son's college was a "Barely Break 80" pitcher who was drafted. He went 7-2 in his 1st year at A ball. He broke several records at college.
The fact that this school had a low velocity pitcher with great success was one of the reasons we liked the school so much and that they played against some top quality schools.
The walk thing dosen't tell the story about control in all cases. There are BB and there are BB. In one inning this fall my son had 2 Ks 2BB and a pop up. Is that as bad as it looks ? No the coach said he did great because his pitch location was great. All around the zone, not giving in and throwing one that was hittable just to get the K. I have always preached this and you should not be afraid to locate even if it means giving up a BB.
To me W/L record is more of a team stat but does reflect as a part of the pitchers ability. If you pitch for a low production team you will get a skewed number. Stats should be a part of the picture but not the whole story.
quote:But what of the pitcher that gets bases loaded, two outs, then an error allows a run, then three consecutive homers bring in 6 more? All would be unearned, pitcher has a 0.00 ERA, but got waxed.
The .000 ERA would hold true in high school , college and the pros if scored that way.
In that example the extra out turned into a big inning as it usually does.
quote:One of the best pitchers who went to my son's college was a "Barely Break 80" pitcher who was drafted. He went 7-2 in his 1st year at A ball. He broke several records at college.
Bobblehead... The question isn't which pitcher ends up being the best after he's drafted, it's what stat a scout likes in a college player. The round in which this "barely break 80" pitcher was drafted will indicate how well the scouts liked him and his stats. There are many pitchers in the bigs that weren't high draft picks or drafted at all but that's another good topic.
Fungo
TPM-I understand the choices you gave about stats and you started the question
out by "If you were a scout" my opinion is that stats don't matter to me and the majority of scouts I know as well. If I HAD to choose one of your choices I would go strictly with strikeouts because that would be the closest
indicator a pitcher(sight unseen) may have some velocity.
I've had scouts tell me they have gone to see a kid for the first time because
someone told them this "prospect" was striking out everyone in sight and when
he put the radar on him he didn't break 83-but he sure was getting his share
of K's. Why? The competition was terrible. We had a kid on our team that only pitched one game and struck out 12 of the 15 batters he faced(game only went 5
innings)-the other team had to borrow our catcher's mitt and so did a few of the fielders. Our pitcher could barely throw 75 mph and nothing but fastballs(for lack of a better term).
Point being, I know you wanted a response to one of your 5 choices but IMO I
don't think a scout would care about any stat unless he could set up the same
circumstances that those stats occurred under for all the pitchers he is scouting. A good SO/W ratio of 9/2 might be great against Texas in June if a kid goes 9 innings, but is that just as good as a 9/2 ratio against Eastern
Michigan on Feb 3rd?(nothing against E.M. but they're probably still in snow that time of year
)
I also would like to see BBScout weigh in on this as well and maybe I'm all wet and don't know what I'm talking about.
out by "If you were a scout" my opinion is that stats don't matter to me and the majority of scouts I know as well. If I HAD to choose one of your choices I would go strictly with strikeouts because that would be the closest
indicator a pitcher(sight unseen) may have some velocity.
I've had scouts tell me they have gone to see a kid for the first time because
someone told them this "prospect" was striking out everyone in sight and when
he put the radar on him he didn't break 83-but he sure was getting his share
of K's. Why? The competition was terrible. We had a kid on our team that only pitched one game and struck out 12 of the 15 batters he faced(game only went 5
innings)-the other team had to borrow our catcher's mitt and so did a few of the fielders. Our pitcher could barely throw 75 mph and nothing but fastballs(for lack of a better term).
Point being, I know you wanted a response to one of your 5 choices but IMO I
don't think a scout would care about any stat unless he could set up the same
circumstances that those stats occurred under for all the pitchers he is scouting. A good SO/W ratio of 9/2 might be great against Texas in June if a kid goes 9 innings, but is that just as good as a 9/2 ratio against Eastern
Michigan on Feb 3rd?(nothing against E.M. but they're probably still in snow that time of year
)I also would like to see BBScout weigh in on this as well and maybe I'm all wet and don't know what I'm talking about.
Moc,
Thanks, not really sure which it is either. Putting velocity aside, I always thought it was ERA. But ERA means different things at different places.
I was just wondering if a scout was to consider a stat an important one, which would it be.
Bobbleheaddoll,
I was thinking more like a college pitchers 3 seasons in college, not one inning in practice.
I am ssuming most really good college pitchers can locate many of their pitches.
Thanks, not really sure which it is either. Putting velocity aside, I always thought it was ERA. But ERA means different things at different places.
I was just wondering if a scout was to consider a stat an important one, which would it be.
Bobbleheaddoll,
I was thinking more like a college pitchers 3 seasons in college, not one inning in practice.
I am ssuming most really good college pitchers can locate many of their pitches.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Moc,
Thanks, not really sure which it is either. Putting velocity aside, I always thought it was ERA. But ERA means different things at different places.
I was just wondering if a scout was to consider a stat an important one, which would it be.
BobbleheadDoll,
I was thinking more like a college pitchers 3 seasons in college, not one inning in practice.
I am ssuming most really good college pitchers can locate many of their pitches.
Knowing what I know how things work in the real world for pitchers. Hands down...wins are the most critical. Why, because most of the time a pitcher has to overcome lousy fielding behind him to ge the win.
I know of pitcher's who have to overcome very poor play, and sometimes it looks like it's deliberate when there is no attempt at all to field a ball hit directly at a player...which I've seen happen numerous times, and then find out later that the scorekeeper scored it a hit.
I've seen half-arse effort where the ball bounces off a glove and have that scored as a hit against the pitcher.
I've seen outfielder's stand in place, not move at all, while the ball falls directly in front of them whereupon they pick it up then throw to the wrong bag...only later to find out it scored a hit.
Don't get me started....grrrrr
A pitcher can't do it all...though I wonder sometimes how any of them ever get the wins they do.
No sir, if a pitcher has a decent winning record he earned it.
I know of pitcher's who have to overcome very poor play, and sometimes it looks like it's deliberate when there is no attempt at all to field a ball hit directly at a player...which I've seen happen numerous times, and then find out later that the scorekeeper scored it a hit.
I've seen half-arse effort where the ball bounces off a glove and have that scored as a hit against the pitcher.
I've seen outfielder's stand in place, not move at all, while the ball falls directly in front of them whereupon they pick it up then throw to the wrong bag...only later to find out it scored a hit.
Don't get me started....grrrrr
A pitcher can't do it all...though I wonder sometimes how any of them ever get the wins they do.
No sir, if a pitcher has a decent winning record he earned it.
any opinion on the WHIP? I think its...
walks+hits/innings pitched
walks+hits/innings pitched
rz1, I like the WHIP also. Anything around a 1 is very good.
RR, I guess Clemens wasn't very good last year since he didn't have all the wins he should have. The Astros were shutout in what seemed like a dozen of his starts, yet he still had a miniscule ERA. Some got a lot of wins despite giving up 4-5 runs a game because their team scored 7-8. IMO wins aren't a good barometer.
RR, I guess Clemens wasn't very good last year since he didn't have all the wins he should have. The Astros were shutout in what seemed like a dozen of his starts, yet he still had a miniscule ERA. Some got a lot of wins despite giving up 4-5 runs a game because their team scored 7-8. IMO wins aren't a good barometer.
I think we have two different discussions going on.
1) Pitcher's most important stat relating to his team
2) College pitcher's most important stat determined by
scouts
IMO they won't be the same.
1) Pitcher's most important stat relating to his team
2) College pitcher's most important stat determined by
scouts
IMO they won't be the same.
Moc1, I agree
Moc1,
Agreed. IMO (like many others) the scouts are not looking at stats, but the intangibles like projectability, make-up (no not that kind), etc...
Agreed. IMO (like many others) the scouts are not looking at stats, but the intangibles like projectability, make-up (no not that kind), etc...
The problem with stats is that they all have to be qualified. What conference,what team etc . If you are on a weak team you will lose more games than an other pitcher on a strong team. Yes strong pitchers will win against teams even when his team is messing up. It is a team sport and wins and losses are a team stat. You see guys signing or being traded for big money with less than great w/l records.
When you get right down to it a scout has to watch a player play against good competition inorder to evaluate him as a MLB prospect.
I think velocity is an attention getter and 90+ gets relatively poor pitchers drafted.
I have an example of a very hard throwing RHP who played 2 years in US college ball. I went to a MLB camp and the guy hit 92. He was signed by the Royals. He had come back to pitch for an Ontario University which is not very strong and did not have good stats. Obviously the stats had no influence what so ever. I sat with his mother at the camp and at several games and she told me he had no interest in him untill the camp. The only conclusion I can make is that he got signed because he was hitting 92.
I do still believe that a great pitcher with lower velocity will get his chance but has to prove he can pitch by having good stats overa longer period of time against good competition.
When you get right down to it a scout has to watch a player play against good competition inorder to evaluate him as a MLB prospect.
I think velocity is an attention getter and 90+ gets relatively poor pitchers drafted.
I have an example of a very hard throwing RHP who played 2 years in US college ball. I went to a MLB camp and the guy hit 92. He was signed by the Royals. He had come back to pitch for an Ontario University which is not very strong and did not have good stats. Obviously the stats had no influence what so ever. I sat with his mother at the camp and at several games and she told me he had no interest in him untill the camp. The only conclusion I can make is that he got signed because he was hitting 92.
I do still believe that a great pitcher with lower velocity will get his chance but has to prove he can pitch by having good stats overa longer period of time against good competition.
If you have pitcher who throws 92 and walks 5 or 6 runners per game and gets drafted IMO the scouting service is like a drug addict who knows the stuff isn't good for them but can't help themselves to get the monkey off their back.
IMO the criteria is can a pitcher get people out...in other words does he know how to pitch within his own skills.
I've watched numerous pitchers throw the ball over 90+ or more and get bored with watching homeplate being stomped on from the runners scoring.
It an ego thing, all the scouts think that a kid that can throw heat can be taught how to pitch...nothing is less true. There is a intuitive side of pitching that is not a skill, it is a God given talent.
WHIPS is a good indicator of a pitchers ability to get himself out of trouble. That for me is a very important stat as is the K/BB ratio. But I look at two things ERA and LOB more than all other indicators. Shows me that a pitcher knows how to pitch and I don't care anything about how fast he throws. Most batters can't hit a CHUP or CB pitch that breaks more than three feet and moves away from them from the elbow to the outside corner on the catchers foot, but it is a strike...the Sandy Koufax killer pitch.
IMO the criteria is can a pitcher get people out...in other words does he know how to pitch within his own skills.
I've watched numerous pitchers throw the ball over 90+ or more and get bored with watching homeplate being stomped on from the runners scoring.
It an ego thing, all the scouts think that a kid that can throw heat can be taught how to pitch...nothing is less true. There is a intuitive side of pitching that is not a skill, it is a God given talent.
WHIPS is a good indicator of a pitchers ability to get himself out of trouble. That for me is a very important stat as is the K/BB ratio. But I look at two things ERA and LOB more than all other indicators. Shows me that a pitcher knows how to pitch and I don't care anything about how fast he throws. Most batters can't hit a CHUP or CB pitch that breaks more than three feet and moves away from them from the elbow to the outside corner on the catchers foot, but it is a strike...the Sandy Koufax killer pitch.
quote:Originally posted by Ramrod:
Knowing what I know how things work in the real world for pitchers. Hands down...wins are the most critical. Why, because most of the time a pitcher has to overcome lousy fielding behind him to ge the win.
I know of pitcher's who have to overcome very poor play, and sometimes it looks like it's deliberate when there is no attempt at all to field a ball hit directly at a player...which I've seen happen numerous times, and then find out later that the scorekeeper scored it a hit.
I've seen half-arse effort where the ball bounces off a glove and have that scored as a hit against the pitcher.
I've seen outfielder's stand in place, not move at all, while the ball falls directly in front of them whereupon they pick it up then throw to the wrong bag...only later to find out it scored a hit.
Don't get me started....grrrrr
A pitcher can't do it all...though I wonder sometimes how any of them ever get the wins they do.
No sir, if a pitcher has a decent winning record he earned it.
My observations of most D-1 baseball games the last few years has been exactly the opposite.
As the metal bats have become more and more powerful - I have seen countless games where the scores are 20 run+ affairs.
Many of the pitchers win simply because the opposing hitters arms get tired form whacking the h*** out of the ball. LOL
In the summer leagues - with wood bats - it is an entirely different story.
RR couldn't agree more.
The guy throwing 90+ with 5 BB a game on a good day,he got drafted to and is in the Dominican League with an ERA of 11+
Its I can't get over some of the scores myself. My son's teams played with metal until last year. We used metral when in the States unless it was a wood bat tournament. The difference is huge. The one thing that I seemed to notice though was that more balls seem to drop in. It took an adjustment to get used to the difference.
The guy throwing 90+ with 5 BB a game on a good day,he got drafted to and is in the Dominican League with an ERA of 11+
Its I can't get over some of the scores myself. My son's teams played with metal until last year. We used metral when in the States unless it was a wood bat tournament. The difference is huge. The one thing that I seemed to notice though was that more balls seem to drop in. It took an adjustment to get used to the difference.
About the pitcher that walked 5. Did he walk 5 in 9 innings and struck out 10? Or did he walk 5 in two?
RR,
I never understood the whip, but I do understand that it is very important for a pitcher to know how to get himself out of trouble.
I am just trying to understand, after the human factor, does the scout take into consideration stats, depending of course his level of play. I was told, due to conf differences, it maybe comes down to strike/walk ratios, but don't see that either.
So is it all based on velocity, projection, control how many pitches he uses, or some stats.
In HS I felt it was strikes, not sure in college. For a scout. Does it matter how the pitcher gets the batter out?
Of course I know it's not one thing but if it was ONE stat, which would it be, especially with metal bats.
RR,
I never understood the whip, but I do understand that it is very important for a pitcher to know how to get himself out of trouble.
I am just trying to understand, after the human factor, does the scout take into consideration stats, depending of course his level of play. I was told, due to conf differences, it maybe comes down to strike/walk ratios, but don't see that either.
So is it all based on velocity, projection, control how many pitches he uses, or some stats.
In HS I felt it was strikes, not sure in college. For a scout. Does it matter how the pitcher gets the batter out?
Of course I know it's not one thing but if it was ONE stat, which would it be, especially with metal bats.
RR I'm honestly trying to follow your logic on this subject but somewhere it gets
disconnected each time. If the scouting service keeps signing players they shouldn't because they can't help themselves(like a drug addiction), then who is signing all the successful ML pitchers? Are you saying they are ALL incapable of
recognizing talent or is it just a few, the majority, 30% or what? Are you also
saying that ML owners and GMs like to throw money down the tubes just because of
EGO and wanting pitchers with velocity?
Please give me an example of a ML pitcher that has only an 80 mph fastball and has a Koufax curve. And BTW, Koufax had a mid nineties fastball. Or just tell me any ML pitcher(inc. Wakefield) that can't throw harder than 85.
I agree that getting batters out is the most important thing for a HS, College, and ML pitcher. Their coaches and managers successes depend on W's. But any pitcher that throws under 85 with PERFECT control won't be getting batters out
in the ML. And I'm also including the knuckleball pitchers. I've played against a few, including the Niekro brothers and both could and did come close to a 90 FB. That's what made their knuckler so effective-batters never knew when they were going to slip one by them.
Maddux can still touch 90 on occasion and the only reason he is still pitching is because of his control and he is a rarity. I'll bet he won't be around much
longer if his velocity drops much more than it has.
disconnected each time. If the scouting service keeps signing players they shouldn't because they can't help themselves(like a drug addiction), then who is signing all the successful ML pitchers? Are you saying they are ALL incapable of
recognizing talent or is it just a few, the majority, 30% or what? Are you also
saying that ML owners and GMs like to throw money down the tubes just because of
EGO and wanting pitchers with velocity?
Please give me an example of a ML pitcher that has only an 80 mph fastball and has a Koufax curve. And BTW, Koufax had a mid nineties fastball. Or just tell me any ML pitcher(inc. Wakefield) that can't throw harder than 85.
I agree that getting batters out is the most important thing for a HS, College, and ML pitcher. Their coaches and managers successes depend on W's. But any pitcher that throws under 85 with PERFECT control won't be getting batters out
in the ML. And I'm also including the knuckleball pitchers. I've played against a few, including the Niekro brothers and both could and did come close to a 90 FB. That's what made their knuckler so effective-batters never knew when they were going to slip one by them.
Maddux can still touch 90 on occasion and the only reason he is still pitching is because of his control and he is a rarity. I'll bet he won't be around much
longer if his velocity drops much more than it has.
Maddox has been told by his coaches they did not want him throwing 90 and in an interview said he was more effective in the low 80s.
If you watch MLB which I don't a lot. I prefer amateur baseball and college ball, you will see the velocity on the screen and I have watched several pitchers that do not throw 90. I do know the difference between the pitches and I can read. In the world series I saw a few pitchers who did very well with fastballs at 85-88.
If you watch MLB which I don't a lot. I prefer amateur baseball and college ball, you will see the velocity on the screen and I have watched several pitchers that do not throw 90. I do know the difference between the pitches and I can read. In the world series I saw a few pitchers who did very well with fastballs at 85-88.
Sorry had to leave...
Let's see, where were we...
Speaking about the pitcher with great velocity and no command or control.
MOC1 I have nothing against the guy who has a great arm and can throw 90+...but I don't consider him any better a pitcher than one that throws 77 to 85+ that has command of three good pitches he uses strategicially to kill a batter with his loving off-speed stuff that keeps the batters frustrated because everytime they swing it stings the he*ck out their hands.
The 95+ guy is no good to me if after the first inning I'm down by 5 runs. Four of them by walks. Give me the 77-85 who throws thin strikes, makes the batter reach for a ball, and is fooled by the high speed FB off the plate and the CB/CUP that hits the absolute outside edge to freeze him in his shoes.
Please believe me that I'm not an absolutist on speed...it is not a panacea. What I am is an absolutist on command and control.
I don't give a da*mn that a pitcher can run it up there 100mph and can't get it over for a "THIN STRIKE". A MLB batter can catch up to that pitch because they all learn how to shorten up their swings so that the bat only really moves 10 inches to achieve their maximum power. If you look at Bonds swing he generates all his power in less than 12 inches.
Sure a guy who throws heat in HS and college looks good but he hasn't shown that he understands situational command and control he is doomed when he moves up to the pros.
The most difficult thing that I've seen for pitchers who have that intuitive sense of what to do in stress and tight situations is having to throw called pitches that they can't shake off which ends up with them being the goat. In that case I've told young pitchers that they have to learn to turn the outcome over to the guy who is making the calls and be satisfied with the knowledge that it was the wrong call and the outcome is not his fault. But it still hurts them non-the-less.
I just would like to see pitching coaches teach the art and craft of pitching and stop projecting themselves into the game when they have no knowledge eg., of which pitch last felt really good, from the third pitch thrown to a batter...only the guy on the mound knows that.
WHIPS which stands for WALKS + HITS divided by INNINGS PITCHED is calculated to show that a pitcher doesn't give up ideally not more than one runner per innings pitched. But it is more important as an indicator of how well a pitcher manages his first pitch. and the 0-2 or two strike count.
the ERA shows how a pitcher manages his overall concentration levels.
The LOB shows how a pitcher sees himself in relationship to his opponent. This is the "WARRIOR" stat.
A low LOB and a high ERA and I know the guy has eggs that crack.
A HIGH LOB and a low ERA and I like the guy because i know he has rocks not eggs.
Let's see, where were we...
Speaking about the pitcher with great velocity and no command or control.
MOC1 I have nothing against the guy who has a great arm and can throw 90+...but I don't consider him any better a pitcher than one that throws 77 to 85+ that has command of three good pitches he uses strategicially to kill a batter with his loving off-speed stuff that keeps the batters frustrated because everytime they swing it stings the he*ck out their hands.
The 95+ guy is no good to me if after the first inning I'm down by 5 runs. Four of them by walks. Give me the 77-85 who throws thin strikes, makes the batter reach for a ball, and is fooled by the high speed FB off the plate and the CB/CUP that hits the absolute outside edge to freeze him in his shoes.
Please believe me that I'm not an absolutist on speed...it is not a panacea. What I am is an absolutist on command and control.
I don't give a da*mn that a pitcher can run it up there 100mph and can't get it over for a "THIN STRIKE". A MLB batter can catch up to that pitch because they all learn how to shorten up their swings so that the bat only really moves 10 inches to achieve their maximum power. If you look at Bonds swing he generates all his power in less than 12 inches.
Sure a guy who throws heat in HS and college looks good but he hasn't shown that he understands situational command and control he is doomed when he moves up to the pros.
The most difficult thing that I've seen for pitchers who have that intuitive sense of what to do in stress and tight situations is having to throw called pitches that they can't shake off which ends up with them being the goat. In that case I've told young pitchers that they have to learn to turn the outcome over to the guy who is making the calls and be satisfied with the knowledge that it was the wrong call and the outcome is not his fault. But it still hurts them non-the-less.
I just would like to see pitching coaches teach the art and craft of pitching and stop projecting themselves into the game when they have no knowledge eg., of which pitch last felt really good, from the third pitch thrown to a batter...only the guy on the mound knows that.
WHIPS which stands for WALKS + HITS divided by INNINGS PITCHED is calculated to show that a pitcher doesn't give up ideally not more than one runner per innings pitched. But it is more important as an indicator of how well a pitcher manages his first pitch. and the 0-2 or two strike count.
the ERA shows how a pitcher manages his overall concentration levels.
The LOB shows how a pitcher sees himself in relationship to his opponent. This is the "WARRIOR" stat.
A low LOB and a high ERA and I know the guy has eggs that crack.
A HIGH LOB and a low ERA and I like the guy because i know he has rocks not eggs.
quote:The most difficult thing that I've seen for pitchers who have that intuitive sense of what to do in stress and tight situations is having to throw called pitches that they can't shake off which ends up with them being the goat. In that case I've told young pitchers that they have to learn to turn the outcome over to the guy who is making the calls and be satisfied with the knowledge that it was the wrong call and the outcome is not his fault. But it still hurts them non-the-less.
It'd be nice to see a SCOUT or two offer up their views on this one.
RR-you said a lot in your last post-and I would not disagree with most of what
you said but you did not address any of the questions I posed. This thread is about what scouts deem as important stats to have for a college pitcher. You
have implied that scouts are "addicted" to velocity and cannot help themselves
by basically only drafting hard throwers. Would you care to elaborate on the above?
What pitcher in the ML cannot break 85 with his fastball? Again, we are not talking about getting HS and College batters out. We are talking about getting
the best hitters in the world out and the higher up the ladder you go the more
velocity a pitcher needs and OF COURSE the control to go along with it.
Please give me an example of ANY major league pitcher on ANY roster throwing
under 85 mph and being successful.(as I stated, even Wakefield can top 85).
Thanks.
you said but you did not address any of the questions I posed. This thread is about what scouts deem as important stats to have for a college pitcher. You
have implied that scouts are "addicted" to velocity and cannot help themselves
by basically only drafting hard throwers. Would you care to elaborate on the above?
What pitcher in the ML cannot break 85 with his fastball? Again, we are not talking about getting HS and College batters out. We are talking about getting
the best hitters in the world out and the higher up the ladder you go the more
velocity a pitcher needs and OF COURSE the control to go along with it.
Please give me an example of ANY major league pitcher on ANY roster throwing
under 85 mph and being successful.(as I stated, even Wakefield can top 85).
Thanks.
I just looked up a couple guys who I know throw 90+
The one guy just finished 2nd year JUCO scouts have been all over him . His stats last year indicated he got under 1 inning for the whole year. 3 appearances gave up 6 hits 5 walks and an ERA of 42. This for the whole season. Another guy has an era of 11 and did not last 2 innings in the Dominican League.
Forget the states and work on velocity. Everyone seems to talk about it before anything else.
MOC my son has pitched against guys in the minors, drafted players and great college players. The results are usually pretty impressive. My son is still physically immature compared to guys he has played against. These guys still miss great curve balls and even a well placed FB at 82-84 will catch them looking.
We will see what happens in 4 years.
The one guy just finished 2nd year JUCO scouts have been all over him . His stats last year indicated he got under 1 inning for the whole year. 3 appearances gave up 6 hits 5 walks and an ERA of 42. This for the whole season. Another guy has an era of 11 and did not last 2 innings in the Dominican League.
Forget the states and work on velocity. Everyone seems to talk about it before anything else.
MOC my son has pitched against guys in the minors, drafted players and great college players. The results are usually pretty impressive. My son is still physically immature compared to guys he has played against. These guys still miss great curve balls and even a well placed FB at 82-84 will catch them looking.
We will see what happens in 4 years.
BobbleheadDoll,
I looked up an ACC pitcher who pitched in his last year of college, 15.5 INNINGS pitched (total in college about 28), record 1-3, 23 hits, 15 runs ,14 of them earned, 26 SO, 12BB and was drafted in the 4th round in 2004.
Has hit the mark of 100 on the gun.
I also know of another pitcher, who, I am pretty sure in his last college year had some control problems but pitched consistantly in the mid 90's get the prize of 2nd overall in his draft year (don't know his record).
I guess it's obvious what their most important asset (not stat) was to scouts.
I used to subscribe by the theory that control, effective use of pitches, and wins gets you drafted high, but now, I am learning,if you don't light up the gun, you don't get the nod.
Maybe scouts are addicted to velocity, I don't know. As MOC points out, give us one pitcher in the majors who pitches with a FB below 85.
I looked up an ACC pitcher who pitched in his last year of college, 15.5 INNINGS pitched (total in college about 28), record 1-3, 23 hits, 15 runs ,14 of them earned, 26 SO, 12BB and was drafted in the 4th round in 2004.
Has hit the mark of 100 on the gun.
I also know of another pitcher, who, I am pretty sure in his last college year had some control problems but pitched consistantly in the mid 90's get the prize of 2nd overall in his draft year (don't know his record).
I guess it's obvious what their most important asset (not stat) was to scouts.
I used to subscribe by the theory that control, effective use of pitches, and wins gets you drafted high, but now, I am learning,if you don't light up the gun, you don't get the nod.
Maybe scouts are addicted to velocity, I don't know. As MOC points out, give us one pitcher in the majors who pitches with a FB below 85.
MOC1
Noah Lowry of the SF Giants their MVP throws his FB from 85 to 90, but he has a Chup that pretty much emulates the FB speed which he throws in the exact same rhythm of that "slow FB and so he is very effective. Had the most wins and best ERA of their team.
I don't know why we went down this road in the MLB. Velocity has always been one component that was necessary for a good pitcher, but it is no more important than at least one or two other pitches a MLB pitcher must have to be truly effective.
I watched Stu Miller who was a closer, went 14-5 play in the All-Star game at candlestick 1961,
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/asgbox/yr1961as.shtml
and he had a career that most pitchers would love to have in the MLB and he never threw the ball near 85.
Velocity is overrated. The fastball is nothing more than a setup pitch. Pitching is about command and control of the pitches you have with movement that puts the ball on the end of the bat or on the handle. That means the most effective pitchers are those that work both sides of the plate and can get batters out by throwing pitches that look like they ware going to be strikes but end up at the contact of the bat to be off the plate or out of the strike zone.
Now is a pitcher that has a FB over 90+ desirable, yes, but without good location and another pitch to help with the FB as the setup, like a good chup, cb...he is no better than a pitcher who throws 87 with no movement. If he throws 90+ and has no command and no control...if I was scouting he would not get any interest from me.
It's to bad that peoiple cannot appreciate the guys like Stu Miller, he put ARSES in the seats because people were just amazed at how he was able to pitch and get the best batter in the world to hit into DB's. He averaged 6.77 K's/IPS with his 45 mph junk...so go figure.
Throwing heat that brings the ball thigh high or above the knees, with an attitude, that a pitcher thinks he can blow it by a MLB batter is just foolishness.
Noah Lowry of the SF Giants their MVP throws his FB from 85 to 90, but he has a Chup that pretty much emulates the FB speed which he throws in the exact same rhythm of that "slow FB and so he is very effective. Had the most wins and best ERA of their team.
I don't know why we went down this road in the MLB. Velocity has always been one component that was necessary for a good pitcher, but it is no more important than at least one or two other pitches a MLB pitcher must have to be truly effective.
I watched Stu Miller who was a closer, went 14-5 play in the All-Star game at candlestick 1961,
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/asgbox/yr1961as.shtml
and he had a career that most pitchers would love to have in the MLB and he never threw the ball near 85.
Velocity is overrated. The fastball is nothing more than a setup pitch. Pitching is about command and control of the pitches you have with movement that puts the ball on the end of the bat or on the handle. That means the most effective pitchers are those that work both sides of the plate and can get batters out by throwing pitches that look like they ware going to be strikes but end up at the contact of the bat to be off the plate or out of the strike zone.
Now is a pitcher that has a FB over 90+ desirable, yes, but without good location and another pitch to help with the FB as the setup, like a good chup, cb...he is no better than a pitcher who throws 87 with no movement. If he throws 90+ and has no command and no control...if I was scouting he would not get any interest from me.
It's to bad that peoiple cannot appreciate the guys like Stu Miller, he put ARSES in the seats because people were just amazed at how he was able to pitch and get the best batter in the world to hit into DB's. He averaged 6.77 K's/IPS with his 45 mph junk...so go figure.
Throwing heat that brings the ball thigh high or above the knees, with an attitude, that a pitcher thinks he can blow it by a MLB batter is just foolishness.
RR,
I agree with much of what you say regarding pitchers. The pitchers I mentioned had a lot more than just 90+ fastballs to get drafted, obviously.
If you subscribe to BA, it is very interesting to read the scouting reports on all of the top prospects in each organization. Gives one a good perspective of how and why these guys are top prospects, drafted high out of HS and college.
From what I have learned in the past year watching D1 baseball, there are many, many players who can pitch very well and throw hard. That is why they are there. But only a few will get drafted in rounds that will make them top prospects in the organization.
I am still wondering with so much talent to choose from what other indicator does the scout use, stats? Which one?
I agree with much of what you say regarding pitchers. The pitchers I mentioned had a lot more than just 90+ fastballs to get drafted, obviously.
If you subscribe to BA, it is very interesting to read the scouting reports on all of the top prospects in each organization. Gives one a good perspective of how and why these guys are top prospects, drafted high out of HS and college.
From what I have learned in the past year watching D1 baseball, there are many, many players who can pitch very well and throw hard. That is why they are there. But only a few will get drafted in rounds that will make them top prospects in the organization.
I am still wondering with so much talent to choose from what other indicator does the scout use, stats? Which one?
Seems as this is yet another of the many velocity vs lack of velocity threads.
People tend to bring up the 90+ mph failures if they’re on the side of the soft tossers. Well… Of course there are a lot of 90+ failures… That’s because the vast majority of those drafted throw in that range. If every pitcher who throws in the 90s made it to the big leagues they would have to expand the leagues to hundreds of teams.
One should look at the entire group rather than those who might have failed. How many mid 80s rookie pitchers do we see in any given year in the Major Leagues? They’re all rookies before they’re vets. Perhaps some might think there should be more low to mid 80 types in the league. Truth is all else being equal in pitching… faster is better!
There are very few hitters who will honestly say they would rather hit against a straight 95 mph fastball rather than a straight 85 mph fastball. I know which one they would pick with the big game on the line.
Wouldn’t everyone agree that all low to mid 80s pitchers are not exactly the same?
So why then do we lump all the 90+ guys in one group?
Some are much better than others.
Once again it appears that some think scouts “only” consider velocity and those who have that 90+ velocity can’t pitch.
Scouts do get interested when they see 90+
They get more interested if the pitcher has good mechanics and arm action
They get more interested if the pitcher has size and projection
They get more interested if the pitcher shows athletic ability
They get more interested when they see mid 90+
They get more interested if that pitch has life and movement
They get more interested if that pitch sinks
They get more interested if there is command of that pitch
They get more interested if the pitcher has a good breaking ball
They get more interested when they see high velocity breaking balls
They get more interested if the pitcher has command of the breaking ball
They get more interested if the pitch has a good changeup
They get more interested if the pitcher shows a good splitty, cutter, etc
They get more interested if the pitcher shows deception
They get more interested if the pitcher shows pitchabilty
They get more interested if the pitcher shows poise
They get more interested if the pitcher is very competitive
They get more interested if the pitcher has great makeup.
I could keep going
When they see much or all of the above, the stats are almost always real good, good enough anyway.
90+ by itself might cause enough interest to draft and follow. 90+ alone won’t gain anyone a big pay day!
The only stats that truly count are the ones the scout thinks the pitcher could compile in the Major Leagues some day. Yes, they are wrong sometimes, but there are only so many openings in the Major Leagues. It’s amazing how often they are right!
Velocity is not the only thing, but those that wish to ignore its importance stand to be forever disappointed. There are a large number of pitchers in the Major Leagues who just wouldn’t have got there or stayed there without 90+ velocity.
Young, and not so perfectly conditioned, Bobby Jenks White Sox World Series closer had some rough stops in the minor leagues. The main thing that got him to the World Series was the 100 mph fastball.
I kind of think Roger Clemens might be the best pitcher who ever lived. The same Clemens minus 10-15 mph on all his pitches and we wouldn’t even know his name.
Is it possible to ever have one of these discussions without bringing up Maddux or other finesse types. Maddux was a small high school pitcher who was low to mid 90s in high school. If he threw low 80s in high school we probably wouldn’t know his name today.
Stats – Important provided there is interest in the pitchers ability
No interest in pitchers ability – Stats don’t mean a whole lot.
In other words the odds are extremely stacked against the low 80s pitcher even with world beater stats. Once in a great while these types do get a shot (not much money) and they make it to the top. However, these types sure can win a lot of college games along the way.
My suggestion – If you can’t beat the system – Do everything possible to join it!
People tend to bring up the 90+ mph failures if they’re on the side of the soft tossers. Well… Of course there are a lot of 90+ failures… That’s because the vast majority of those drafted throw in that range. If every pitcher who throws in the 90s made it to the big leagues they would have to expand the leagues to hundreds of teams.
One should look at the entire group rather than those who might have failed. How many mid 80s rookie pitchers do we see in any given year in the Major Leagues? They’re all rookies before they’re vets. Perhaps some might think there should be more low to mid 80 types in the league. Truth is all else being equal in pitching… faster is better!
There are very few hitters who will honestly say they would rather hit against a straight 95 mph fastball rather than a straight 85 mph fastball. I know which one they would pick with the big game on the line.
Wouldn’t everyone agree that all low to mid 80s pitchers are not exactly the same?
So why then do we lump all the 90+ guys in one group?
Some are much better than others.
Once again it appears that some think scouts “only” consider velocity and those who have that 90+ velocity can’t pitch.
Scouts do get interested when they see 90+
They get more interested if the pitcher has good mechanics and arm action
They get more interested if the pitcher has size and projection
They get more interested if the pitcher shows athletic ability
They get more interested when they see mid 90+
They get more interested if that pitch has life and movement
They get more interested if that pitch sinks
They get more interested if there is command of that pitch
They get more interested if the pitcher has a good breaking ball
They get more interested when they see high velocity breaking balls
They get more interested if the pitcher has command of the breaking ball
They get more interested if the pitch has a good changeup
They get more interested if the pitcher shows a good splitty, cutter, etc
They get more interested if the pitcher shows deception
They get more interested if the pitcher shows pitchabilty
They get more interested if the pitcher shows poise
They get more interested if the pitcher is very competitive
They get more interested if the pitcher has great makeup.
I could keep going
When they see much or all of the above, the stats are almost always real good, good enough anyway.
90+ by itself might cause enough interest to draft and follow. 90+ alone won’t gain anyone a big pay day!
The only stats that truly count are the ones the scout thinks the pitcher could compile in the Major Leagues some day. Yes, they are wrong sometimes, but there are only so many openings in the Major Leagues. It’s amazing how often they are right!
Velocity is not the only thing, but those that wish to ignore its importance stand to be forever disappointed. There are a large number of pitchers in the Major Leagues who just wouldn’t have got there or stayed there without 90+ velocity.
Young, and not so perfectly conditioned, Bobby Jenks White Sox World Series closer had some rough stops in the minor leagues. The main thing that got him to the World Series was the 100 mph fastball.
I kind of think Roger Clemens might be the best pitcher who ever lived. The same Clemens minus 10-15 mph on all his pitches and we wouldn’t even know his name.
Is it possible to ever have one of these discussions without bringing up Maddux or other finesse types. Maddux was a small high school pitcher who was low to mid 90s in high school. If he threw low 80s in high school we probably wouldn’t know his name today.
Stats – Important provided there is interest in the pitchers ability
No interest in pitchers ability – Stats don’t mean a whole lot.
In other words the odds are extremely stacked against the low 80s pitcher even with world beater stats. Once in a great while these types do get a shot (not much money) and they make it to the top. However, these types sure can win a lot of college games along the way.
My suggestion – If you can’t beat the system – Do everything possible to join it!
When a scout goes to a ballpark to evaluate a pitcher, there are a number of items that are observed and graded. Velocity is only part of the evaluation; There are many pitchers in high school and college that can touch 90+ mph on the radar gun but are not really considered professional prospects. Listed below is a list of pitching criterion used by most Major League clubs
Fast Ball: We start with this because it is the most obvious. Scouts want to see a pitcher'' average velocity - what your fastball pitches at on a consistent basis throughout a game. (some scouts call it "the cruising speed") Your top velocity is also noted and may be used, depending on your age and mechanics, to project a better fastball grade in the future. Along with radar gun readings, a scout must look at how the baseball moves, sinks, cuts, etc. in order to complete the fastball grade. If you throw 90 - 91 mph, but it is straight as an arrow and gets hit frequently, your fastball may be given a below average grade despite it's velocity.
The following fastball velocities are Major League Baseball pitcher ratings
Very Above Average 94+ mph
Above Average 92 - 93 mph
Average 89 - 91 mph
Below Average 87 - 88 mph
Very Below Average 85 - 86 mph
(Left-handed pitchers are graded on the same scale, but fastball velocities are usually given less weight if their breaking balls and change-ups are effective.)
Arm Action: Scouts will note at what arm angle you throw from. Moving from highest release point to the lowest, the arm angles are: over-hand, high 3-quarter, 3-quarter, low 3-quarter, or sidearm. Next, scouts will determine how much tension, or effort, is in the arm action. A max-effort pitcher is tough on his arm and risks injury, as opposed to someone who is smooth and effortless. Pure arm speed is also noted, which usually translates to tighter rotation and better velocity with pitches. A pitcher's arm action will also determine what type f break a curve or slider will have (down break, sweeping, sharp, loose, hanging, etc).
Delivery: Are pitching mechanics clean and smooth, or is there work to be done with the mechanics? There are a wide variety of mechanical flaws that may prohibit a pitcher from being efficient and consistent. Scouts need to note both the good and the bad, or what needs improvement.
Breaking Pitches: This includes curves, sliders and screwballs. A major league pitcher needs at least two quality pitches to keep hitters off-balance. Scouts need to grade the effectiveness of the breaking balls on a Major League scale. Good breaking balls have velocity, they break late (close to home plate), have a tight rotation (tougher to read the spin), and hitters struggle to make solid contact with them.
Other Pitches: This includes the split-finger, change-up, knuckle balls, etc. Again velocity, rotation, sharpness, and how hitters react to them will help determine their grade.
Aggressiveness: Does the pitcher go after hitters with his fastball? Does he challenge hitters with his best stuff? Does he work quickly on the mound between pitches? Does he intimidate hitters with his body language and attitude?
Baseball Instincts: Does he have a feel for pitching (knowing when to use his fastball or when to go off-speed); Is there field awareness for where base runners are and where the play needs to be made; does he back-up bases and cover first base when necessary; and does he support his teammates after an error is made?
Control: Can the pitcher pitch, or does he just throw in the direction of the plate? Can he locate his fastball for a strike when behind in the count? Does he pitch ahead-in-the-count, or behind? On average, a good inning for a pitcher would be 15 pitches or less. Greg Maddux of the Braves once threw a complete, nine inning game on 78 pitches, which is fewer than 9 pitches an inning ... on average.
Physical Maturity: Scouts will evaluate a pitcher's body to determine if he "feels" the pitcher can improve his velocity in the future with added strength and natural, physical maturity. Scouts will examine the height, weight, visual body fat, and athleticism to help them come to a conclusion. There are some 20 year old pitchers who have been weightlifting for 3 or 4 years and are so physically developed that it is difficult to project any velocity improvement from maturation. But on the other hand, scouts have seen high school pitchers weighing 165-175 lbs. Adding 2-5 mph on their fastball as they gain weight and strength in pro baseball. The problem is, strength and maturity does not insure added velocity, so this is purely speculative, or "playing a hunch."
Each Major League team has their own report forms for evaluations, and these items are on them. Arm action and fastball grades are perhaps the two most important evaluations. Arm action evaluations are important because they will tell a team if there is a "better than average" chance of a future injury, because of how the players arm works. Arm actions are difficult to change in pitchers, and there are risks involved in changing how the arm works - velocity may decrease, the angle of the breaking ball will probably change, and the pitching arm is susceptible to injury because the muscles are being used differently. So the arm action had better be able to work efficiently and resist injury.
The fastball evaluation is largely dependent on velocity, but movement and how hitters react to it is also very important. You can teach a fastball how to move, but velocity is God-given. A Major League pitcher had better be able to have enough velocity or movement to get the best hitters in the world out.
Fast Ball: We start with this because it is the most obvious. Scouts want to see a pitcher'' average velocity - what your fastball pitches at on a consistent basis throughout a game. (some scouts call it "the cruising speed") Your top velocity is also noted and may be used, depending on your age and mechanics, to project a better fastball grade in the future. Along with radar gun readings, a scout must look at how the baseball moves, sinks, cuts, etc. in order to complete the fastball grade. If you throw 90 - 91 mph, but it is straight as an arrow and gets hit frequently, your fastball may be given a below average grade despite it's velocity.
The following fastball velocities are Major League Baseball pitcher ratings
Very Above Average 94+ mph
Above Average 92 - 93 mph
Average 89 - 91 mph
Below Average 87 - 88 mph
Very Below Average 85 - 86 mph
(Left-handed pitchers are graded on the same scale, but fastball velocities are usually given less weight if their breaking balls and change-ups are effective.)
Arm Action: Scouts will note at what arm angle you throw from. Moving from highest release point to the lowest, the arm angles are: over-hand, high 3-quarter, 3-quarter, low 3-quarter, or sidearm. Next, scouts will determine how much tension, or effort, is in the arm action. A max-effort pitcher is tough on his arm and risks injury, as opposed to someone who is smooth and effortless. Pure arm speed is also noted, which usually translates to tighter rotation and better velocity with pitches. A pitcher's arm action will also determine what type f break a curve or slider will have (down break, sweeping, sharp, loose, hanging, etc).
Delivery: Are pitching mechanics clean and smooth, or is there work to be done with the mechanics? There are a wide variety of mechanical flaws that may prohibit a pitcher from being efficient and consistent. Scouts need to note both the good and the bad, or what needs improvement.
Breaking Pitches: This includes curves, sliders and screwballs. A major league pitcher needs at least two quality pitches to keep hitters off-balance. Scouts need to grade the effectiveness of the breaking balls on a Major League scale. Good breaking balls have velocity, they break late (close to home plate), have a tight rotation (tougher to read the spin), and hitters struggle to make solid contact with them.
Other Pitches: This includes the split-finger, change-up, knuckle balls, etc. Again velocity, rotation, sharpness, and how hitters react to them will help determine their grade.
Aggressiveness: Does the pitcher go after hitters with his fastball? Does he challenge hitters with his best stuff? Does he work quickly on the mound between pitches? Does he intimidate hitters with his body language and attitude?
Baseball Instincts: Does he have a feel for pitching (knowing when to use his fastball or when to go off-speed); Is there field awareness for where base runners are and where the play needs to be made; does he back-up bases and cover first base when necessary; and does he support his teammates after an error is made?
Control: Can the pitcher pitch, or does he just throw in the direction of the plate? Can he locate his fastball for a strike when behind in the count? Does he pitch ahead-in-the-count, or behind? On average, a good inning for a pitcher would be 15 pitches or less. Greg Maddux of the Braves once threw a complete, nine inning game on 78 pitches, which is fewer than 9 pitches an inning ... on average.
Physical Maturity: Scouts will evaluate a pitcher's body to determine if he "feels" the pitcher can improve his velocity in the future with added strength and natural, physical maturity. Scouts will examine the height, weight, visual body fat, and athleticism to help them come to a conclusion. There are some 20 year old pitchers who have been weightlifting for 3 or 4 years and are so physically developed that it is difficult to project any velocity improvement from maturation. But on the other hand, scouts have seen high school pitchers weighing 165-175 lbs. Adding 2-5 mph on their fastball as they gain weight and strength in pro baseball. The problem is, strength and maturity does not insure added velocity, so this is purely speculative, or "playing a hunch."
Each Major League team has their own report forms for evaluations, and these items are on them. Arm action and fastball grades are perhaps the two most important evaluations. Arm action evaluations are important because they will tell a team if there is a "better than average" chance of a future injury, because of how the players arm works. Arm actions are difficult to change in pitchers, and there are risks involved in changing how the arm works - velocity may decrease, the angle of the breaking ball will probably change, and the pitching arm is susceptible to injury because the muscles are being used differently. So the arm action had better be able to work efficiently and resist injury.
The fastball evaluation is largely dependent on velocity, but movement and how hitters react to it is also very important. You can teach a fastball how to move, but velocity is God-given. A Major League pitcher had better be able to have enough velocity or movement to get the best hitters in the world out.
BheadDoll, I appreciate the fact that your son has had success pitching
against "drafted players, minor leaguers and good college players" with an 82-84 mph fastball. I'm sure with growth and maturity his velocity will improve and he may some day have success in the Major Leagues as well. Hope he does. It won't be with an 84 mph fastball.
This thread keeps moving away from it's original question.
It'sNOT "Can a pitcher be successful throwing off-speed pitches and a well-below average fastball with good control in HS, College, or Minor Leagues?"
It's "What stat does a scout look for in a college pitcher?" Scout meaning ML scout if im reading TPM correct.
I think most of us and knowledgeable baseball people agree that ML scouts
do not care about stats, but if there were one "stat" that would give a scout a verifiable indication of a pitcher's avg. fastball velocity then that would be the stat they would use. THERE ISN"T ONE. However, a college pitcher with 160 k's in 80 innings will bring some scouts to see him to see if he is throwing hard. If his competition has been awful and he is throwing 84 they will pack up and leave. PERIOD. If the pitcher has 160 K's in 80 innings and the college is in a credible conference- you can believe they already know about him.
82-84 mph in college will get no interest from a scout unless the kid is a lefty-and then only minimal interest if the kid is projectible.
Please, I mean no disrespect to your son-I have one also throwing 82-84 in college right now and has been red-shirted this year. He also has had success against pitching against BBAmerica's #1 ranked player of a few years ago and KC's first round pick the previous year. He would get bombed in the Majors.
He also knows that if he wants to get any interest at all from scouts he must
get his velocity to at least 88-90.
Someone please start a thread "Asking whether control pitchers can be successful in college". I'm through with this one
.
against "drafted players, minor leaguers and good college players" with an 82-84 mph fastball. I'm sure with growth and maturity his velocity will improve and he may some day have success in the Major Leagues as well. Hope he does. It won't be with an 84 mph fastball.
This thread keeps moving away from it's original question.
It'sNOT "Can a pitcher be successful throwing off-speed pitches and a well-below average fastball with good control in HS, College, or Minor Leagues?"
It's "What stat does a scout look for in a college pitcher?" Scout meaning ML scout if im reading TPM correct.
I think most of us and knowledgeable baseball people agree that ML scouts
do not care about stats, but if there were one "stat" that would give a scout a verifiable indication of a pitcher's avg. fastball velocity then that would be the stat they would use. THERE ISN"T ONE. However, a college pitcher with 160 k's in 80 innings will bring some scouts to see him to see if he is throwing hard. If his competition has been awful and he is throwing 84 they will pack up and leave. PERIOD. If the pitcher has 160 K's in 80 innings and the college is in a credible conference- you can believe they already know about him.
82-84 mph in college will get no interest from a scout unless the kid is a lefty-and then only minimal interest if the kid is projectible.
Please, I mean no disrespect to your son-I have one also throwing 82-84 in college right now and has been red-shirted this year. He also has had success against pitching against BBAmerica's #1 ranked player of a few years ago and KC's first round pick the previous year. He would get bombed in the Majors.
He also knows that if he wants to get any interest at all from scouts he must
get his velocity to at least 88-90.
Someone please start a thread "Asking whether control pitchers can be successful in college". I'm through with this one
.
Moc,
Good post.
PG and williebobo,
Thanks.
Good post.
PG and williebobo,
Thanks.
MOC1
Taking into account everything that you have stated, keeping in alignment with TPM's question, and reading down the list of PGStaff's very good post, and the excellent input from Williebobo...it is obvious that velocity is the one stat that tips the scales for scouts. Period.
Velocity...that should answer the question for all pitcher's who aspire to pitch above the college level. If you don't throw above the 92 - 93 mph level kiss your butt goodbye.
Funny when my son was 8 y/o I had a scout tell me the very same thing. He said don't even bother having your son tryout at a MLB tryout unless he can hit 93 on the gun.
Every year my son has wanted to tryout, and I refuse...he hit 91 but that's not 93.
Thanks for confirming what that scout told me so many years ago. It saved me wasted time and money...but it doesn't mean that a pitcher can't have and enjoy being a very good College level pitcher.
Taking into account everything that you have stated, keeping in alignment with TPM's question, and reading down the list of PGStaff's very good post, and the excellent input from Williebobo...it is obvious that velocity is the one stat that tips the scales for scouts. Period.
Velocity...that should answer the question for all pitcher's who aspire to pitch above the college level. If you don't throw above the 92 - 93 mph level kiss your butt goodbye.
Funny when my son was 8 y/o I had a scout tell me the very same thing. He said don't even bother having your son tryout at a MLB tryout unless he can hit 93 on the gun.
Every year my son has wanted to tryout, and I refuse...he hit 91 but that's not 93.
Thanks for confirming what that scout told me so many years ago. It saved me wasted time and money...but it doesn't mean that a pitcher can't have and enjoy being a very good College level pitcher.
RR,
None of my business but... Why stop him from trying out? What is there to lose?
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
If he can "pitch" well in the upper 80s and has a good breaking ball and shows abilty to touch 90-91... He's a professional prospect. Especially if he loves it!
Best of luck to your son.
None of my business but... Why stop him from trying out? What is there to lose?
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
If he can "pitch" well in the upper 80s and has a good breaking ball and shows abilty to touch 90-91... He's a professional prospect. Especially if he loves it!
Best of luck to your son.
MOC1 not offence taken and I agree 100%. We have answered the uestion many times that was asked. The reason he is in US college ball is to see if he can take the step up to 90+. Most of the interest he has had has been from US scouts while on trips. We are just thrilled that he made the travel roster in his freshman year and were not expecting that although we had high hopes. A father of a pitcher is constantly wondering how far he will go. He 1s 6'4" with long skinny arms and fingers. I have seen scouts look at his hands and tell the others look at this guys hands. We chose schools mainly based on the quality of competition, academics, great location and good coaching.
I have read atleast 100 ML reports and often get a laugh out of a few. The guys I gave as examples are not to lump velocity guys into a group and trash them but more a question of what were they thinking when they drafted that guy. Last year there were guys taken out of low ranked schools and conferences. The draft to me is very subjective and it is much like being recruited by schools. Just because you sign dosent mean you will play.
PG would be very familiar with Loewen, Francis and Davidson all 90+ LHP. These guys are great pitchers. Francis was a Barely 80mph pitcher at freshman year. Tried unsuccessfully to get a US scholarship and was drafted by the Rockies. He spent only about 1 yr in the minors (1.8 M. bounus). Loewen who I have seen pitch many times is amazing (4 yr deal 7.2M, 3.2 Bonus) is still in the minors after 3 yaers. Davidson who my son has been a teammate with when he played up(3 Years older) has been in the minors for 3+ years. These are all great pitchers with velocity and control. Davidson had some problems when he got sick in Cuba while playing with our national team and his velocity suffered and they found scare tissue on his L shoulder in 1st year single A.
I have read atleast 100 ML reports and often get a laugh out of a few. The guys I gave as examples are not to lump velocity guys into a group and trash them but more a question of what were they thinking when they drafted that guy. Last year there were guys taken out of low ranked schools and conferences. The draft to me is very subjective and it is much like being recruited by schools. Just because you sign dosent mean you will play.
PG would be very familiar with Loewen, Francis and Davidson all 90+ LHP. These guys are great pitchers. Francis was a Barely 80mph pitcher at freshman year. Tried unsuccessfully to get a US scholarship and was drafted by the Rockies. He spent only about 1 yr in the minors (1.8 M. bounus). Loewen who I have seen pitch many times is amazing (4 yr deal 7.2M, 3.2 Bonus) is still in the minors after 3 yaers. Davidson who my son has been a teammate with when he played up(3 Years older) has been in the minors for 3+ years. These are all great pitchers with velocity and control. Davidson had some problems when he got sick in Cuba while playing with our national team and his velocity suffered and they found scare tissue on his L shoulder in 1st year single A.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
88-91 can create serious interest, especially if he shows some other things. If a scout told you that (93) was the only way, he was pulling your leg. There are all kinds of pitchers drafted who don’t throw 93. I was referring to velocity MUCH lower than topping at 91 in that post.
This is very true and good advice.
MOC,
It is still the fall, even if he is red shirted now, come spring, things can and do change.
My 04 is a 83-84 RHP, maybe gets an 86 now and then. He was going to redshirt his freshman year, then with injuries and whatnot he got a shot. He took full advantage.
He plays Juco region X, so no, we are not talking ACC baseball, but has pitched against some guys that are now either in the minors or the ACC and the like.
My opinion? K to BB ratio, and pitch ability. Having faith in your pitches, yourself and if coach is calling the pitches, faith in him or yourself to shake him off!
Still at 6' 167, he's not getting interest from larger schools, let alone MLB. But will he have a great time pitching in college? He already has!! 65 more days till opening day.
It is still the fall, even if he is red shirted now, come spring, things can and do change.
My 04 is a 83-84 RHP, maybe gets an 86 now and then. He was going to redshirt his freshman year, then with injuries and whatnot he got a shot. He took full advantage.
He plays Juco region X, so no, we are not talking ACC baseball, but has pitched against some guys that are now either in the minors or the ACC and the like.
My opinion? K to BB ratio, and pitch ability. Having faith in your pitches, yourself and if coach is calling the pitches, faith in him or yourself to shake him off!
Still at 6' 167, he's not getting interest from larger schools, let alone MLB. But will he have a great time pitching in college? He already has!! 65 more days till opening day.
From my '02's away message, not sure who wrote it:
It's not about getting a scholarship, getting drafted, or making Sports Center. It's a deep need in us that comes from the heart. We need to practice, play, to lift, to hustle, to sweat, to compete. We do it all for our teammates. We don't lift weights with a future Olympic wrestler; we lift with a future doctor. We don't run with a future Wimbledon champion; we run with a future CEO. It's a bigger part of us than our friends and family can understand. Sometimes we play for 200,000 fans, sometimes for 25. But we still play hard. You cheer for us because you know us. You know more than just our names. Like all of you, we are still students first. We don't sign autographs for money. But we do sign graduate school applications, MCAT exams, and student body petitions. When we miss a kick, or strike out, we don't let down an entire state. We only let down our teammates, coaches, and fans. But the hurt in our hearts is the same. We train hard. Lift, throw, run, kick, shoot, dribble, and lift some more, and in the morning we go to class. Still the next day in class we are nothing more than students. It's about pride; in ourselves, in our school. It's about our love and passion for the game. And when it's all over; when we walk off that court or field for the last time, our hearts crumble. Those tears are real. But deep down inside, we are very proud of ourselves. We will forever be what few can claim: college athletes.
It's not about getting a scholarship, getting drafted, or making Sports Center. It's a deep need in us that comes from the heart. We need to practice, play, to lift, to hustle, to sweat, to compete. We do it all for our teammates. We don't lift weights with a future Olympic wrestler; we lift with a future doctor. We don't run with a future Wimbledon champion; we run with a future CEO. It's a bigger part of us than our friends and family can understand. Sometimes we play for 200,000 fans, sometimes for 25. But we still play hard. You cheer for us because you know us. You know more than just our names. Like all of you, we are still students first. We don't sign autographs for money. But we do sign graduate school applications, MCAT exams, and student body petitions. When we miss a kick, or strike out, we don't let down an entire state. We only let down our teammates, coaches, and fans. But the hurt in our hearts is the same. We train hard. Lift, throw, run, kick, shoot, dribble, and lift some more, and in the morning we go to class. Still the next day in class we are nothing more than students. It's about pride; in ourselves, in our school. It's about our love and passion for the game. And when it's all over; when we walk off that court or field for the last time, our hearts crumble. Those tears are real. But deep down inside, we are very proud of ourselves. We will forever be what few can claim: college athletes.
02^04Mom,
Who ever wrote that is one very smart cookie.
College sports (baseball) can be the greatest experience in a persons life. The level doesn't matter, it's all great and it will never be forgotten by any individual who experiences it.!
Thanks for sharing that message.
Who ever wrote that is one very smart cookie.
College sports (baseball) can be the greatest experience in a persons life. The level doesn't matter, it's all great and it will never be forgotten by any individual who experiences it.!
Thanks for sharing that message.
02^04Mom,
I like that, have heard something similar to it during an ACC game on TV. And also the SEC has a similar commercial.
Since the post is winding down some what,I, for some reason am with you on the K/BB ratio. I noticed this year in the game stats after each game, they also listed how many pitches the pitcher threw in that game for strikes. I had never once heard any coach in HS talk about how many pitches my son threw for strikes, only last season. So I assume it has some importance.
I do like PG's take on the importance of stats, the scouts are only interested in the ones the pitcher will compile someday in the Major leagues.
I like that, have heard something similar to it during an ACC game on TV. And also the SEC has a similar commercial.
Since the post is winding down some what,I, for some reason am with you on the K/BB ratio. I noticed this year in the game stats after each game, they also listed how many pitches the pitcher threw in that game for strikes. I had never once heard any coach in HS talk about how many pitches my son threw for strikes, only last season. So I assume it has some importance.
I do like PG's take on the importance of stats, the scouts are only interested in the ones the pitcher will compile someday in the Major leagues.
Once a pitcher shows he has draft potential, certain stats are more valuable than others. Sometimes the lack of certain numbers can create negative concerns more than good numbers actually helping. (if that makes any sense)
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Once a pitcher shows he has draft potential, certain stats are more valuable than others. Sometimes the lack of certain numbers can create negative concerns more than good numbers actually helping. (if that makes any sense)
Some of these stats include those that everyone is mentioning here. Another important stat is GB vs FB outs. A pitcher getting a large % of his outs on ground balls vs fly balls is a big plus in most cases. Ground ball pitchers are in demand, especially if they have average or better MLB velocity. It usually means the pitcher has a good sinking fastball or split finger and a good breaking ball. The sinker is a big pitch in professional baseball these days. Nearly every MLB pitcher you see with an average or below average fastball has a real good sinker.
PG,
I am hoping that parents of young pitchers will read carefully alll that you have posted, including the above.
Thanks.
Pro scouts look at several things, and usually stats isn't something that is on the radar.
Projectability - where they see this kid in 4-5 years, in terms of body size, and in terms of mental state, those are huge when a scout looks at players.
Mentally - Does this prospect "have it upstairs", and is he he going to be the type of player to not fold under pressure.
Medical History - Has the prospect had a history of medical problems in the past, that might possible hinder his athletic "ceiling"?
I'm a big fan of stats in baseball, love to look at them, and keep track of them. But they don't play a big part when a player is being looked at by pro scouts. I know scouts, I have talked to scouts, and seen scouts in action when they were looking at my nephew a few years back. Most of them could have cared less about the outcome of the game, how many strikeouts he had, or what his stats were. They had their ouwn agendas when watching the game, and stats didn't play a big part.
http://www.HackettBaseball.com
Projectability - where they see this kid in 4-5 years, in terms of body size, and in terms of mental state, those are huge when a scout looks at players.
Mentally - Does this prospect "have it upstairs", and is he he going to be the type of player to not fold under pressure.
Medical History - Has the prospect had a history of medical problems in the past, that might possible hinder his athletic "ceiling"?
I'm a big fan of stats in baseball, love to look at them, and keep track of them. But they don't play a big part when a player is being looked at by pro scouts. I know scouts, I have talked to scouts, and seen scouts in action when they were looking at my nephew a few years back. Most of them could have cared less about the outcome of the game, how many strikeouts he had, or what his stats were. They had their ouwn agendas when watching the game, and stats didn't play a big part.
http://www.HackettBaseball.com
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
If you were a scout, which one do you feel is the most important stat to have for college pitchers?
When I go to a college game and pick up a stat sheet, the thing I look at the most is how many walks in how many innings.[/QUOTE
Thanks for your opinion, and thanks for not mentioning the V word.
FINALLY! An honest-to-God scout offers his view to this thread; which seems to have a life of its own! Thanks, bbscout!
quote:FINALLY! An honest-to-God scout offers his view to this thread; which seems to have a life of its own! Thanks, bbscout!
Prepster,
No one has more repect for Doug's opinion than me. But the comment, "FINALLY! An honest-to-god scout offers his view" is kind of degrading to everyone elses opinion. If someone was at one time an "honest-to-god scout", why did they become less knowledgable now that they are doing something else?
Even "bbscout" will admit the number of walks given up by a low 80s pitcher is kind of insignificant in most cases! If you don't have the tools, it doesn't matter what stat you look at.
Now if your looking at someone who throws average or close to it, there are some stats more important than others, including what has been mentioned.
No offense intended, PG; and, I apologize for conveying that sense. The fact is that your authoritative views have benefitted many, myself included; on this thread and many others.
I suppose my real frustration on this thread has come from its being used as a platform by some to drag us all into this never-ending debate over the relative value of velocity; a debate which digresses at times into a generalized criticism of the process used to evaluate prospective professional pitchers.
I suppose my real frustration on this thread has come from its being used as a platform by some to drag us all into this never-ending debate over the relative value of velocity; a debate which digresses at times into a generalized criticism of the process used to evaluate prospective professional pitchers.
.
IMO...No simple one stop answer...but lots of good info y all on this thread...
My favorites...
Start with Willie BoBo's velocity ratings...(qualifying velocities)...
Then use PG's excellent..."They more interested if..." phrasing that counts the tools in the toolbox...then start adding up the tools Willie BoBo and PG offer...
Finish off with 02/04Moms perspective...
And you got yourself a winner...
IMO...No simple one stop answer...but lots of good info y all on this thread...
My favorites...
Start with Willie BoBo's velocity ratings...(qualifying velocities)...
Then use PG's excellent..."They more interested if..." phrasing that counts the tools in the toolbox...then start adding up the tools Willie BoBo and PG offer...
Finish off with 02/04Moms perspective...
And you got yourself a winner...
I find my friend Prepster to be right. I don't think he meant to offend anyone. He is certainly not putting down anyone's opinion.
I asked a question, not realizing it again would get into the debate of pitcher's velocity, same as in every other post, over and over. We know that velocity is important, that's been established, but what other one thing (or two) is taken into consideration.
Thanks all. With all that has been stated, I am going to go with the K/BB ratio as maybe a most important stat, as I heard, which let me to this start this poll.
I asked a question, not realizing it again would get into the debate of pitcher's velocity, same as in every other post, over and over. We know that velocity is important, that's been established, but what other one thing (or two) is taken into consideration.
Thanks all. With all that has been stated, I am going to go with the K/BB ratio as maybe a most important stat, as I heard, which let me to this start this poll.
I apologize prepster. That was stupid on my part. It was getting late.
Perhaps a good example of the value of velocity would be Colt Griffin (1st round).
Another example out of college last year would be Jason Neighborgall (Georgia Tech). In 101 college innings he walked 110. Suspect mechanics, poor command, and at times has shown to lack poise and confidence.
He has high 90s to triple digit fastball and high 80s slider.He was the first pick of the 3rd round and signed for $500,000.
Obviously Neighborgall had first round velocity, but with undraftable results and control. This resulted in a half a million dollars and he went before a lot of guys who pitched much better and of course, much better stats.
I'm not saying we should all agree with the system, but that's the way it is.
Perhaps a good example of the value of velocity would be Colt Griffin (1st round).
Another example out of college last year would be Jason Neighborgall (Georgia Tech). In 101 college innings he walked 110. Suspect mechanics, poor command, and at times has shown to lack poise and confidence.
He has high 90s to triple digit fastball and high 80s slider.He was the first pick of the 3rd round and signed for $500,000.
Obviously Neighborgall had first round velocity, but with undraftable results and control. This resulted in a half a million dollars and he went before a lot of guys who pitched much better and of course, much better stats.
I'm not saying we should all agree with the system, but that's the way it is.
PG,
Again, I don't think Prepster's comments were directed at you. You have given us valuable information and I hope that others will listen.
Jason was mentioned by Fungo in his post. I was referring to Colin Mahoney in one of my posts, 28 innings pitched in college, fourth round. I would say if you reach triple digits, it's a given you are going to be drafted, whether you walk every other batter or not.
Again, I don't think Prepster's comments were directed at you. You have given us valuable information and I hope that others will listen.
Jason was mentioned by Fungo in his post. I was referring to Colin Mahoney in one of my posts, 28 innings pitched in college, fourth round. I would say if you reach triple digits, it's a given you are going to be drafted, whether you walk every other batter or not.