It looks like there will, after all, be procedures to track pitch counts. This has been added:
1. The CHSAA shall develop a pitch count accountability process and distribute to schools prior to the start of practice in February 2016.
2. All levels of teams are required to implement pitch counts and share the number of pitches each pitcher throws with the other team at the end of the game, along with posting that information on MaxPreps with 24 hours of the game.
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It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
This is awesome news and hopefully Texas will be following within the next 2 years. I had a private meeting with my son's High School baseball coach a few weeks ago to discuss pitch count and monitoring my sons shoulder and arm health and the coach basically stated he doesn't believe in pitch count but listens to the pitchers to bring themselves out. So I guess I will be the enforcer of pitch count during the games my son pitches. My son and I have a signal so that he knows when to pull himself out. My son's coach is the reason mandatory and enforceable pitch count for high school baseball is needed.
Here is a link to the Colorado high school association's pitch count rollout, including a video explaining the hows and whys...
FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
In the concession stand behind the snow cone syrups and next to the band aid jar.
lionbaseball posted:This is awesome news and hopefully Texas will be following within the next 2 years. I had a private meeting with my son's High School baseball coach a few weeks ago to discuss pitch count and monitoring my sons shoulder and arm health and the coach basically stated he doesn't believe in pitch count but listens to the pitchers to bring themselves out. So I guess I will be the enforcer of pitch count during the games my son pitches. My son and I have a signal so that he knows when to pull himself out. My son's coach is the reason mandatory and enforceable pitch count for high school baseball is needed.
What is your son's pitch count and what factors have you taken into consideration in coming to this number?
IEBSBL posted:lionbaseball posted:This is awesome news and hopefully Texas will be following within the next 2 years. I had a private meeting with my son's High School baseball coach a few weeks ago to discuss pitch count and monitoring my sons shoulder and arm health and the coach basically stated he doesn't believe in pitch count but listens to the pitchers to bring themselves out. So I guess I will be the enforcer of pitch count during the games my son pitches. My son and I have a signal so that he knows when to pull himself out. My son's coach is the reason mandatory and enforceable pitch count for high school baseball is needed.
What is your son's pitch count and what factors have you taken into consideration in coming to this number?
I use ASMI recommendations versus the coach that has no guidelines. During the preseason his pitch count will be 50. The coach can go to hades before he ruins my son's arm.
Ok well, I was just trying to start a conversation on things to take into consideration, other that just pitchers. However, you seem to be very defensive, so have a great day.
RootHog66 - do you know what, if any, penalties there are for not following the rules or not reporting pitches in a timely manner? I'm really curious how they are going about managing and enforcing this at the state level. I guess if its already a rule that teams have to report scores through MaxPreps, then it really wouldn't be a big deal. It sounds relatively straight forward and easy, but often the devil is in the details.
Our state is talking about something similar, but hasn't implemented anything yet. I think a lot of states will be watching Colorado.
Apparently they are in the process of developing an accountability system. Originally, the proposal was clear that schools were to police themselves and that pitch count objections could not be the basis for an appeal. that has since been removed. It is somewhat strange that they haven't put together an enforcement system. This was adopted last year and was to have been implemented in 2015, but was put off a year.
Go44dad posted:
In the concession stand behind the snow cone syrups and next to the band aid jar.
That’s about the truth of it. 
IEBSBL posted:Ok well, I was just trying to start a conversation on things to take into consideration, other that just pitchers. However, you seem to be very defensive, so have a great day.
Nothing against you personally but i think pitch count should be taken just as serious as concussions in football
Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
FoxDad posted:Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
A simple way to monitor pitch count is to have all score boards modified to show total pitch count for each pitcher. That way everyone can see if the coach is physically abusing a kid.
lionbaseball posted:FoxDad posted:Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
A simple way to monitor pitch count is to have all score boards modified to show total pitch count for each pitcher. That way everyone can see if the coach is physically abusing a kid.
And who do you suggest pays for this?
I know you have a burr under your saddle about HS coaches, with good reason, but it is not just them. My son plays 11u baseball and I have watched kids throw more pitches in a weekend that a HS kid pitches once a week. We did a pitch count on a kid that we saw twice in a weekend and he threw 192 pitches. Also, look at pitch counts in the College game. It is not just HS coaches, it is EVERYONE.
lionbaseball posted:FoxDad posted:Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
A simple way to monitor pitch count is to have all score boards modified to show total pitch count for each pitcher. That way everyone can see if the coach is physically abusing a kid.
Why does it have to be on the score board? Do they do that in the pro's? Heck no, they don't. They don't even it do it at the college level.
Most coaches (HS and college) do a pretty good job monitoring the pitch counts. I see no need for it to be displayed.
If it's such a concern keep count yourself.
FoxDad posted:lionbaseball posted:FoxDad posted:Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
A simple way to monitor pitch count is to have all score boards modified to show total pitch count for each pitcher. That way everyone can see if the coach is physically abusing a kid.
Why does it have to be on the score board? Do they do that in the pro's? Heck no, they don't. They don't even it do it at the college level.
Most coaches (HS and college) do a pretty good job monitoring the pitch counts. I see no need for it to be displayed.
If it's such a concern keep count yourself.
Because the majority of high school coaches will only enforce pitch count if they are held accountable. I've talked to a few people on this board and know of several others in my area whose kids have had TJ surgery before they are 20. This is criminal and I think a baseball coach should be fired on the spot for abusing a pitcher. The sad part is I have to keep the pitch count myself to protect my son's health. Do you have a son that pitches?
The reason the pro's don't need PC, I believe, on the scoreboard is that they want to protect their investments so, for the most part, do a good job of policing it themselves. HS coaches (and I'm sure college coaches to some degree) could care less.
IEBSBL posted:lionbaseball posted:FoxDad posted:Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
It shouldn't be all that difficult. If Little league can do it, surely any HS or college can do it. Little League has an additional form to be included with the score book where the pitches thrown by each pitcher are recorded.
Most teams (HS, Legion, and college) my son was on did this anyway. They just kept track on the score book by inning.
Where does Little League post the numbers recorded on that form?
It's simply kept with the score book and has to be produced if requested. They don't post them "online" nor are they required to.
A simple way to monitor pitch count is to have all score boards modified to show total pitch count for each pitcher. That way everyone can see if the coach is physically abusing a kid.
And who do you suggest pays for this?
I know you have a burr under your saddle about HS coaches, with good reason, but it is not just them. My son plays 11u baseball and I have watched kids throw more pitches in a weekend that a HS kid pitches once a week. We did a pitch count on a kid that we saw twice in a weekend and he threw 192 pitches. Also, look at pitch counts in the College game. It is not just HS coaches, it is EVERYONE.
This is not complicated and not expensive. Obviously the high school would pay for it. And I agree that it is EVERYONE but its got to start somewhere. Doesn't the Little League organization monitors pitch counts?
My son did not pitch in HS (played C, 1B and 3B). He did pitch a little in travel ball, legion and fall ball (local league). I do understand your concern as I knew several of the parents of the kids who did pitch.
Here in VA there are inning limits for HS pitchers. VHSL is still contemplating pitch counts and limitations. Even before the inning limitation (there was a time there was no limit) most coaches in the region did monitor the pitch counts or at the very least the # of innings a pitcher pitched.
Yes, it's sad if you have to monitor your son's pitch count if the coach refuses to do so. Have you discussed your concern with the coach? Have you talked to the AD? I don't usually advocate making an end run around the coach without at least discussing your concern with him first.
FWIW, my son has played college level ball (JuCo and D2) and every coach did track pitch counts whether or not the sanction body (NJCAA and NCAA) required it or not.
As to the score board, do you have a clue how much a decent score board costs? Not exactly inexpensive. Even with a new field (our county opened a new HS to replace the old during my son's sophomore year) it wasn't until his senior year a new score board was installed and operational. I don't recall if the baseball boosters helped fund it or not, but I believe they did help defray some of the costs. I know they did fund most of the improvements to the field (fresh dirt and irrigation system - yes the county did not pay for an irrigation when the field was built).
Your school district is probably like most - they have a limited amount of funds for baseball. The big money maker here is football.
Yes - LL does monitor pitch counts. They don't post it online or a score board though.
It's also important to look at stress innings.
On my son's team, 4 or 5 guys had TJ surgery before sophomore year. One during HS and two just after. Not sure that can be blamed on college coach.
lionbaseball posted:
This is not complicated and not expensive. Obviously the high school would pay for it. And I agree that it is EVERYONE but its got to start somewhere. Doesn't the Little League organization monitors pitch counts?
Well, at least for HS it wouldn’t be either expensive nor complicated. For quite some time now, MaxPreps has provided a place for pitch counts that’s free of charge. The only thing complicated is figgerin’ out how to get them into the system. Co has a rule that says everyone has to post stats, but as far as I know they don’t dictate which stats get posted and don’t have a way to check it.
Unless it’s changed recently, Little League requires pitch counts, but the organization whose home is in Williamsport doesn’t monitor squat, nor do any of the regions. I haven’t heard of any district doing it either, but I have heard of a few leagues that do it.
I'm with Lion on this. I wish there were pitch counts and that they were enforced. And Fox, maybe some HS coaches do, there are many that don't in my area.
FoxDad posted:
As to the score board, do you have a clue how much a decent score board costs? Not exactly inexpensive. Even with a new field (our county opened a new HS to replace the old during my son's sophomore year) it wasn't until his senior year a new score board was installed and operational. I don't recall if the baseball boosters helped fund it or not, but I believe they did help defray some of the costs. I know they did fund most of the improvements to the field (fresh dirt and irrigation system - yes the county did not pay for an irrigation when the field was built).
I'm not talking about a new scoreboard, just a counter that can mounted below or on top of the scoreboard. Something like this that could be hardwired into the scoreboard. Counter
The AD is the football coach and my son is the Varsity QB so you would think he would be concerned about my sons arm and shoulders but after my son rehabbed for 1 month last year during baseball the AD never addressed it.
I think just moving to counting pitches and posting the counts would be a huge leap forward for most states, including Texas.
RedFishFool posted:I'm with Lion on this. I wish there were pitch counts and that they were enforced. And Fox, maybe some HS coaches do, there are many that don't in my area.
In Virginia there isn't a pitch count talley, but there is an enforceable rule regarding innings and rest requirements.
I do object to the idea that "high school coaches don't care", as its been stated. Just because one has a personal experience with one individual does not mean that high school coaches across America are trying to burn up arms. To suggest so is irresponsible.
Its unfortunate that some have this experience. 'Im also aware that it happens. Painting a broad brush is a slippery slope though.
Exactly. Just because one coach may be guilty of abusing arms doesn't mean all do it.
GoHeels posted:
In Virginia there isn't a pitch count talley, but there is an enforceable rule regarding innings and rest requirements. …
Every state association has a pitching restriction policy to make sure pitchers get reasonable rest between periods. Most do that by using number of innings to determine the amount of rest. How does Va police and enforce its rule?
Agree with being careful with generalities. While you may have a bad experience, most coaches I know care about the kids and their health. I wouldn't use words like "majority" unless you have real data to back it up.
My problem with the pitch count enforcement is who keeps the official record of it and how is it communicated? This is something that has a direct impact on the game, so it can't be screwed up. I've been to a whole lot of baseball games where the volunteer scoreboard operator misses a run; it seems wholly probable he would screw up the pitch count as well. I like the intention behind the rule for sure, I'm just not sure it's the right way to go.
In my mind, the fact that a parent lets their kid pitch 9, 10 or 12 moths a year has a lot bigger impact on arm health then whether I throw him 85 or 95 pitches.
ironhorse posted:My problem with the pitch count enforcement is who keeps the official record of it and how is it communicated?
In Little League (around here at least) one of the score keepers is designated as the "official" score keeper. During the course of the game the score keepers usually check with each other between each half inning to make sure they have the same score, pitch count, line up, etc. The umps are usually informed of the pitch count status as the count get close to the limit for that age level. It's really not that hard.
FoxDad posted:
In Little League (around here at least) one of the score keepers is designated as the "official" score keeper. During the course of the game the score keepers usually check with each other between each half inning to make sure they have the same score, pitch count, line up, etc. The umps are usually informed of the pitch count status as the count get close to the limit for that age level. It's really not that hard.
If the word [b]usually[/b] were removed from that post and replaced with the word [b]always[/b] it would get a lot closer to resolving the issues folks like myself have because it makes great sense! But be that as it may, it still doesn’t resolve the issue of who keeps track of the game data after the game and how it’s communicated.
ironhorse posted:
…My problem with the pitch count enforcement is who keeps the official record of it and how is it communicated? This is something that has a direct impact on the game, so it can't be screwed up. I've been to a whole lot of baseball games where the volunteer scoreboard operator misses a run; it seems wholly probable he would screw up the pitch count as well. I like the intention behind the rule for sure, I'm just not sure it's the right way to go.
In my mind, the fact that a parent lets their kid pitch 9, 10 or 12 moths a year has a lot bigger impact on arm health then whether I throw him 85 or 95 pitches.
I’ve been an SK for a fairly long while now and I certainly have to admit to having missed a run or an out having been made let alone a pitch. Heck, umpires miss a pitch here or there and have to be corrected. 
The best way to avoid that is to have the 2 team scorers communicate, and the best way to do that is to have them sit together. Unfortunately, many volunteer scorers think it’s more important to sit with their friends so they can chit-chat rather than sit where they can do the best job scoring the game.
Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of very good. Just a rule to count and record pitches would be a huge jump from the next to nothing that exists now.
I don't know if any of the recent comments were directly at me but I surely wasn't throwing any whole profession under the bus nor did I say a majority but my experience is truly what it is....my experience. I wish it was different.
If it wasn't directed at me, then as Rosannadanna would say, "nevermind"
Stats4Gnats posted:GoHeels posted:
In Virginia there isn't a pitch count talley, but there is an enforceable rule regarding innings and rest requirements. …
Every state association has a pitching restriction policy to make sure pitchers get reasonable rest between periods. Most do that by using number of innings to determine the amount of rest. How does Va police and enforce its rule?
There were a number of violations throughout the state, when it was first implemented. Primarily due to the vague and confusing nature with which it was written. Having said that, I recall programs forfeiting wins, and also the schools are fined financially if they do not abide by the rule.
Of the cases that I'm referring to, 99% of them were by mistake. Only one or two that I remember, did I walk away thinking ill thoughts.
GoHeels posted:
There were a number of violations throughout the state, when it was first implemented. Primarily due to the vague and confusing nature with which it was written. Having said that, I recall programs forfeiting wins, and also the schools are fined financially if they do not abide by the rule.
Of the cases that I'm referring to, 99% of them were by mistake. Only one or two that I remember, did I walk away thinking ill thoughts.
My question was: “How does Va police and enforce its rule?” So how does the Assn find out there was an infraction and where is the list of punishments? Are they like other states and depend on a coach making some kind of formal complaint with the punishment ending up being whatever some committee feels is proper?
Stats4Gnats posted:
My question was: “How does Va police and enforce its rule?” So how does the Assn find out there was an infraction and where is the list of punishments? Are they like other states and depend on a coach making some kind of formal complaint with the punishment ending up being whatever some committee feels is proper?
Stats - you bring up a good issue. One that I have not found an "official" answer to. The VHSL handbook spells out the innings pitched limitations, rest periods and punishments, but does not indicate how they are to be reported (if at all). Feel free to google "VHSL". The current handbook is available on the website in pdf format.
I'm guessing a coach (if he suspected a team of a violation) would have to file a complaint to VHSL and the coach of the team in question would have to "show the books" in response and if any violations found, punishments rendered. There's nothing that I could find that indicates a coach has to a) file the official score book with VHSL or b) post it to website such as MaxPreps.
That said, most game results in our region (can't speak for the more rural areas) are reported to the local papers and usually show who pitched and how many innings in addition to the box score and summary.
FoxDad posted:
Stats - you bring up a good issue. One that I have not found an "official" answer to. The VHSL handbook spells out the innings pitched limitations, rest periods and punishments, but does not indicate how they are to be reported (if at all). Feel free to google "VHSL". The current handbook is available on the website in pdf format.
When I compiled the list of all pitching limitations for all NFHS member assns., I had to get into every Constitution, Bylaws, handbook, bluebook, and various other sources. What I found is, when there’s a question about such things, rather than folks like you and doing scads of droll reading, it’s easier to just make a phone call to the state assn’s business office. In your case I’d likely call Tom Dolan, Shawn Knight, Carolyn Shiffet, or Joyce Sisson. One or all of them should be able to give give ou an answer and point you to the section of the state Constitution or Bylaws where it’s at.
I'm guessing a coach (if he suspected a team of a violation) would have to file a complaint to VHSL and the coach of the team in question would have to "show the books" in response and if any violations found, punishments rendered. There's nothing that I could find that indicates a coach has to a) file the official score book with VHSL or b) post it to website such as MaxPreps.
You’ve pretty much outlined what everyone “believes” the process is everywhere. Trouble is, it’s quite a feat to find where it’s written down.
That said, most game results in our region (can't speak for the more rural areas) are reported to the local papers and usually show who pitched and how many innings in addition to the box score and summary.
If what gets reported in your papers is the same as here and most other places, what gets reported is usually up to the person doing the reporting. IOW, except for the inning by inning score, as much or as little can be put in the paper. As far as innings, our paper wants to know the starter, any replacement, and what inning they began pitching. It’s pretty much impossible to get innings from that because you don’t know if the replacement came with no out, 1 out, or two.
Here is what CHSAA put out today concerning enforcement of the new pitch count rule:
Failure to complete these steps carries a major sanction. If we start out entering these for the games tomorrow and continue through the season, there should be no issues. This comes down to a coaching integrity issue and I believe that we have coaches who have only the best interests of students at heart.
Game Changer is a web-based application that can be downloaded for free and is a seamless upload to MaxPreps. They are familiar with our rules and the Baseball Committee is encouraging those looking for a technical program to help with the counts to use this stats keeping program."
I'm not sure what "major sanctions" means, but at least there will be accountability.
Root, I saw that tweeted by Colorado HS Basball, and I retweeted it toward IL Prep Baseball Report and Illinois HS Assoc.. It's a step in the right direction.
