Complaint For You Coaches

In church? Oh, wait, no that's probably not it.

I'll guess 16-0 and 13-1... but that one run was a LOT of fun wasn't it?

HC
I've always felt fall leagues were best for those moving up a level. 15 is kind of a "tweener" year for many kids. If your 15 year olds are freshmen this year, and most should be, that's probably where they should be playing. What good would it do them to play against lesser teams (depleted by football) of younger kids? They need to get used to high school ball- why not now? The transition to HS is humbling for a lot of kids, but it gets better. Losing every game $ucks, but so does playing lesser opponents. If varsity kids aren't getting challenged, that's their problem. Besides, they might just overlook your guys and the kids could steal a win or two against the big boys.
JMHO.

Couple of questions

1. Are the kids being taught the game?

2. Is this a coach or a dad who has a son who can walk on water?

If yes to the first one then it will work itself out as long as the coach is stressing doing the right thing against superior opponents.

If yes to the second one then you may want to find another team if possible.

If no to the first one then rant on because not real smart.

If no to the second one then maybe he will learn from this mistake.

It is true that the young team scored 1 run. We kept it under 10 both games.

It really is a matter of perspective. I understand that the younger kids may gain by playing the older kds, but the games were more or less a complete waste of time for us. Very few balls hit into fair territory, poor pitching, etc. It seems like most like to look at this scenario from the perspective of the younger team. I just thought it was time to give voice to the other side.

That's why it's fall ball, kids trying to get better is the key. I think spizzle hit it right on the head. We have a 15 yr. old group here that's pretty good, but I don't see the older groups taking them for granted, are we winning a lot, nope, are we getting better yep.

at first i thought your son was on the younger team, now it sounds like he wasn't. every one loves an underdog.
try and take it for what it is,fall ball. time to work on things you can't during the season. playing a younger team is a good time to pitch your weaker pitchers, bunt,hit to the opposite field etc. remember they want to get better as well. and any day on a ball field is the best of day's. cold weather is coming. maybe this team is just starting out?

It has a lot to do with expectations for both players and the team as well as teaching the game. If you fall short on any of these then you're in for a long fall. My DD's fastpitch team is comprised of a bunch of sophomores and 3 freshmen. They are playing in a very tough high school fall league which is really like playing 18u. Keep in mind that it would be a weak 18u. However, they are having the time of their lives and are currently 5-1. Again, it depends upon all of the before mentioned. I would caution that if you take on such an endeavor, you'd better have pitching.

Sorry I am like 20dad and thought your son was on the younger team.

We (15U) played up to a 17U tournament this fall. We're playing up at least a year in as many tournaments as possible. We went 2-2 in the 17U. The kids saw better pitching from every pitcher than they saw all summer. It was good for them.

We're 6-6 playing up. The first time we played in our age group we went 0-3. We figured out the kids didn't get pumped up for not playing up.

Has any MLB team complained about playing the Devil Rays? They come in last every year. You take what's on the schedule and deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Holden Caulfield:
Chances are your kids aren't as good as you think they are and you'll lose every game.

This seems to be quite a broad generalization.

My son is playing fall ball as a 14 year old freshman with Juniors, Seniors and even a couple of JUCO freshmen and he's fitting in just fine.

It's been a great experience for him to play at a "varsity" level and I don't think he's held the team back at all.

I can sure see how some would but I don't know if I'd blanketly say they all stink.

BP, no question that, individually, a younger player can be good enough to "play up". My issue is with an entire team that age. Even though this was a top AAU program, this particular team had no business being there. Pitching was awful and our hitters learned nothing, other than how to watch ball four and to recall how a tired ump's strike zone expands with the increasing incompetency of the pitching.

Sorry, at the end of the day I don't buy it. The better team has very little to learn, even trying to do some of the things 20Dad mentioned. All these kids learned to do those things against freshman and JV players a long time ago. It is a different game against varsity players and the hope was to work on those skills against that quality of competition. What do our pitchers learn about woking hitters when the opposition can't catch up to their fastballs and look like they've never seen a good breaking ball?

Thus, while many of you make good points from the perspective of the younger team, I stand by my original statements from the perspective of the older team.

I have to agree with HC. Our fall league is divided into JV and Varsity, but there are several teams playing up. A good JV team gets crushed by an average varsity team. And on some of the JV teams, there is an exceptional player, but as a whole they are not near the level of the varssity teams.

I don't know the answer, But it's baseball.
You have to work hard!
And you have to give back.
If that means you play Older teams to learn,
Are you play younger teams to teach them what it takes to get better.
Thats all part of the process.
EH

I really dont see what is wrong playing up but there is going to far. Some teams where we are play 13-15 together. Then try to build teams 16,17,and 18 together. When possible they will let a few 19 yr olds play if they can work it out depending on certain situations like D.O.B.

The fall league is a good place for the first yr 13 yr olds to get a feel of for the big jump they have just made. Fall ball for alot players is just that getting a feel for the next level you are about to go on to. Its hard for some I think to put really good teams together because of the other sports that go on in the fall.

quote:

Its hard for some I think to put really good teams together because of the other sports that go on in the fall.

True, Play in the Fall for younger players is the key.
And those players that play strictly baseball that are older, Should be helping the younger players to get better.
JMO
EH

quote:

by hc: the young team scored 1 run. We kept it under 10 both games.

even if the young team is overmatched, learning situations can be found for both teams

btw, if the "TOP AAU team" was as BAD as ya say & you didn't smoke them in 2 shortened games via the mercy rule, well maybe there WAS some benefit for both teams ...

AND maybe the skill difference wasn't really as large as it seemed

Bee, there are a handful of young guys on our team. Thus, we are providing learning opportunities. But the young guys on our team get little of the benefit you suggest when the opposition is comprised entirely of such young players.

As for the scores, our coach had the team stop running after we built up a 6-7 run lead as it was obvious that their hitters were not going to produce runs or, frankly, much in the way of "learning opportunities" for our fielders. An exraordinarily large strike zone played a role in keeping the score down too. How does that teach anyone anything, other than to swing at very bad pitches?????

HC-
If this was one bad day then you've already made your point. If your guys are scheduled to play down every week then it's time to re-evaluate the fall season. The learning curve for the younger guys is very steep. It shouldn't surprise your guys to see them play much better next time.

Just to note for future reference, there may be better options for older players than a fall HS league. Besides some very good fall tourneys and showcases that are well documented on this site, there are also JC teams that look for games in the fall.

I hope you and your guys see some better baseball next weekend.

I don't know if its a rule or not, but here in NH, the teams are not all varsity or all JV - they are a mix of players and the coaches field older and younger players together. They all have the opportunity to play positions they might not usually play (son is having a great time at 3rd); the younger guys have the opportunity to demonstrate their ability to play with "the big dogs"; and the older guys, while not playing the toughest, most competitive games, are stepping up as leaders and role models to the younger guys and I think that's really important.

For my son, I see fall ball as the opportunity to stay in the game during the off-season, keep his arm loose, work on his swing, introduce himself to his new baseball community, and set an example for freshman and sophomores as the kind of player they want to be - as a person and an athlete. So far, I think that's what he's done so I'm happy.

I know that doesn't ease your frustration, HC, and I sense you feel you (and the players) wasted your morning, but it is, after all, fall ball and a lot of younger teams play up.

What's the difference from a team playing up and a bad team in your age group? Unless you're playing at some elite level, you're going to encounter some bad teams along the way regardless of their age classification. You're also going to face bad teams in high school ball.

Apparently I have not done a good enough job of expressing how weak the other team was. KmomNH, that is exactly the model our team follows--mix of experienced and younger kids.

quote:

by HC: Apparently I have not done a good enough job of expressing how weak the other team was.

you did a great job, but ya failed to teach your guys an important element of the game -

when you have the other team on the ropes, deliver the knock-out punch & go home

whether their fault or coach's .. they didn't get the job done

one might suggest that the young team you're busting on really came out the winner as they hung in there till the end, while your team "let up"!

I would think a "top level" 15 u travel team would beat more than a few average high school teams, but a very good 15u team would need a lot of luck to hang with a top level 18u team. We have a team from our area playing travel ball in their own age level that hasn't won a game in three years, I keep wondering why they do it. Why not go back to playing rec ball where you're atleast competitive?

Bee, 8-1 and 9-0 with no more than two hits allowed in either game isn't enough of a knock-out punch for you??? You are HARD CORE!!

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
We have a team from our area playing travel ball in their own age level that hasn't won a game in three years, I keep wondering why they do it. Why not go back to playing rec ball where you're atleast competitive?

1) Dad can claim his son plays travel. I'll bet he even calls it "select."

2) So junior can claim he plays travel.

Usually these teams disappear after two years. They try to get better the second year with recruiting. But who wants to play for a poorly coached team that gets pummeled?

A dad started a travel team in our area. It was the middle school team minus the two quality travel players. They went 0-26 with twenty-three mercies. But guess who's son was over .400 on the travel team website even though he got one hit and struck out half his at-bats on the middle school team? I guess it's a lot easier to hit in travel than middle school.

quote:

by HC: Bee, 8-1 and 9-0 with no more than two hits allowed in either game isn't enough of a knock-out punch for you??? You are HARD CORE!!

not being there, I can only rely on (your limited) stats

scoring 1 run an inning against a team ya classified as "horrible" is really nothing to write home about

if they are as bad as ya say, alot of your runs were likely un-earned ...
most would consider an opposing team's ERA near 3.5 as pretty decent


ya may want to consider extra (early AM??) practices, poles, or even a coaching shake-up


(*re-calculated era's Tue - am)

Bee, you might want to get that calculator out again. Walks, hits and HBPs accounted for the runs, not errors. The league also has a limit on the number of batters per inning, which puts a damper on how much you can score. Finally, as I mentioned, in the "give back" category, we have a few youngsters on our team too who are not hitters. At least not yet.

Most importantly, our coach recognized the situation and had our kids hold back from humiliating the other team. Where I am that's called sportsmanship. Apparently you have a different view.

In our Fall League we have "senior league" for 14-16 year olds and they use wood bats. We also have the HS wood bat league for Varsity players.

We run into "I want my son to play up", or "we don't have enough players without Freshmen." There are very few who should be there.

The problem has been when college coaches come to watch, and we have a few with 12 teams. If they happen to come, due to their scheduling and say coming to watch a pitcher who then has to throw against a weak team full of JV players instead of pitching against another strong team later in the week it becomes a problem.

Sure the kid gets evaluated and the coaches can see what he can do reguardless of the competition. Maybe the kid only pitches 2 quick innings and can still pitch later in the week, maybe another senior gets some looks.

It's fall ball, a time to work on your game, maybe play some different positions, but for many seniors it is a time to get on someones radar screen. For the most part, each team is made up of their HS team, less the football players, playing against teams they will face during the regular season.

I hate it worse for the good player, who could and would be starting every game at the senior league level as a 14/15/16 year old sitting and getting a single at bat every other game or so just so he can sit in the dugout with the varsity players.

I wonder what the college coaches think about this? I wonder what the HS coaches think of it as well.

quote:

by HC: The league also has a limit on the number of batters per inning ...

sorry I had assumed hs players would play the baseball rules where 3 outs ended the teams at bat

tho I have seen similar limit rules used in LL practice games etc where no score was kept

quote:

our coach recognized the situation and had our kids hold back from humiliating the other team. Where I am that's called sportsmanship. Apparently you have a different view.

having players "hold back" is far different from the coach putting the brakes on his baserunners? ... that's why I suggested a possible coaching shake-up


I just checked my "sportsmanship views" by lookin over some reg season ACC scores ... some pretty good college teams have been on both sides of score spreads much bigger than your example, several being shut out ...

or course they do play the "3 outs" version

Bee,
You were probably one of those coaches who kept on stealing even with a double digit lead, right? Kept the meat of your order in the game and the subs on the bench too, right?

One of my greatest satisfactions is that neither of my sons ever had to play for a coach like that.

You're actually bringing ACC scores into the discussion??? Get some perspective, man. In how many of those blowouts did the coach keep the starting 9 in for the whole game? None? As for LL rules, the limit I mentioned is common in fall leagues around here and is designed for exactly the purpose it served in these games.

It's all about sportsmanship, Bee.

HC

quote:

by HC: Bee, You were probably one of those coaches who kept on stealing even with a double digit lead, right? Kept the meat of your order in the game and the subs on the bench too, right?

some might suggest you over-estimate YOUR team's ability as ya didn't even build a double digit lead vs a team ya say su-cks.

I'd think it appropriate to play station to station on the bases - w/no stealing/no bunting -
my hitters would be hitting away & in no way would I hold them back at the plate

AND in nearly all cases my subs are in every game plan no matter what the score -
especially true in a fall bb setting

quote:

by HC: Get some perspective, man. In how many of those blowouts did the coach keep the starting 9 in for the whole game?

I'll rely on memory here ... scores like the examples you are whinning about would not indicate the game was "in the bag", or warrant emptying the bench til the 8th or 9th inning (depending home or visitor)

btw, if you're not playing 3 outs baseball why even keep score
have you considered having your hitters start AB w/1 strike - 1 ball count like some beer leagues do?

I'm surprised to read that you would do anyting different in the fall. Sort of goes against everything you've written before or after.