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Condensed Schedule Problems?...Stop your whining...

observer44observer441,000+ posts
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Read with interest the thread on the new college schedule wanted to comment but didn’t want to get lost...

I for one, LOVE the new college schedule rules...about time....the new rules really level the playing field and have really done a great deal for college baseball...(stop whining about sore arm’s and academics)...I agree the southern schools are a bunch of “whining sissies”...grow up!

..here is my problem: a good start, by why stop there?...I love this equality concept and I believe strongly that we can really make it work...If we are REALLY serious about leveling the baseball playing field, getting back the concept of real student athletes, minimizing bias, maximizing academics, ridding ourselves of that evil MLB influence...then lets stop playing games and seriously get to work...and take more control...

Weather?...Why not do this one right?...Weather is still iffy in March...I suggest getting rid of preseason...conference schedules only...prior to that any school below 40 degrees latitude must practice indoors (the northern schools do it – only fair)...then I suggest we play the games at neutral sites (fans are far too big an influence – inequality). I suggest we set weather guidelines...temperature must be 60-75 degrees, humidity within 60 and 80%, any wind over 15 MPH and the games are blacklisted as “Wind-aided” (inequality)...all games must be played from 1,000 to 1,500 feet in altitude.

Talent/recruiting?...Talent is by its very nature incredibly biased and unfair. In order to equalize the talent at each school, we do away with the drafting of college players by MLB. No carrot and the talent level will drop and equal out. You want to play pro ball?...simply, quit whining and move to the Dominican. You have no place in the new order. Sayonara, Bye, Bye. Good Riddance. Additionally, No lefties. No players over 6’1”. Nobody over 90MPH. A Speed limit in the 60. All those are unfair biases we can control. Now to spread the talent. All players at 4.0 and a year ahead with AP’s qualify for a draft based upon last years 300 team finishes...Sorry Woodman, Beavers pick dead last.

Academics?...Truly equal educational opportunities (all academics done on-line through the new NCAA education department- no bias!)....Also my son is a 4.0, so by my measure they should all be there...new NCAA slogan “get a B, Be on the bench” (catchy, easy to remember slogan, BB). You score big in class you earn the right to play...otherwise stop whining and get at those books...what a bunch of lazy academic babies! My son can do it anyone can.

Funding/tuition?...no scholarships (by their very nature sports scholarships are unfair, and ruin the concept of amateur athletics)... equal funding for each program...equal coaches salaries....minimum facilities. Tear down those big gaudy ballparks (why should a school get an advantage just because it has better facilities, or throws more money out? That’s simply not fair.) Legislated equal tuition rates for all DI athletes at school (why should state schools have the advantage?)

Quality of life?...Huge bias here, and one of the more difficult problems to solve in our quest for true and pure equality...but I have a few ideas....We can get a great deal on leftover, cold war era, draconian concrete East German athletic bunkers (picture please woodman)...or if your budget is bigger we use PODS. We segregate our players from the general population. No interaction with the student body allowed as it may tinge the equality of experience. Lord knows the experience at Eastern South Dakota State is much different than that at UCLA!

See equality is not really that difficult. Sure it will take adjustment but you will adapt, trust me. It’s good for everyone!

On the other hand....we could just realize that life and athletics are inherently unfair, that everyone has advantages and disadvantages. That is what makes the whole thing so interesting.(If this stuff were truly for the benefit of the atheltes and fairness they would work them same direction with football...Yea Right.) That overcoming obstacles IS the lesson, (see Oregon State x 2)not creating an artificial video game world where all the parameters are exactly the same....and creating more issues in the process.

Nah, that makes far too much sense....

I can get those bunkers cheap...


Cool 44
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CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
On the other hand....we could just realize that life and athletics are inherently unfair, that everyone has advantages and disadvantages.


So by your logic, we should never try and right wrongs, seek justice where there was none, or try to make fair what is admittidly unfair?

The only constant in life is change. People always resist it, especially those that are forced to give up advantages they have lived with for some time.

Good thing they had the emancipation proclimation before the internet.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
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CPLZ...

While I understand your concerns...

...it is a bit of a stretch to equate the inequities and climates of baseball, or my post, to the absolute and pure evil of slavery....

My simple question is...was this difference so patently aggregious that it took this kind of draconian solution? Or as so often happens was it a minor irritation that was overfixed by board dwelling bureaucrats? Agreed, change is constant and it is part of life, but it has been my experience that changes admistered by boards, and comittees, who are not "on the ground" tend to end up like this....It's a "Dilbert" thing.

My simple logic is this....I simply took the same "fix the china with a hammer logic" that got us into this mess and took it to it's logical conclusion. What happens if the northern schools continue to lose... what's next? How far does this go? If we are indeed gong to look at this through the eyes of the absolute rather than degrees, then ANY solution no matter how ridiculous, no matter how far fetched is sanguine as long as absolute fairness is the absolute "throw the baby out with the bath water" goal.

Beyond historically fairness is not the way NCAA baseball comittees and boards would seem to work....Nothing against the north and the east per-se, but the NCAA baords they have appeased the east by aggregiously leaving some very good west coast teams out of the regionals each year (not my words, well respected and neutral Boyds World shakes it's head about this every year)....now we have appeased the north...if the west and the south continue to win what is next? While some spend their time whining and complaining trying to legislate success...others go to work overcoming it.

This is fun!

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Even up the playing field

How about passing this rule?

Southern schools can no longer recruit northern players. Northern schools can recruit players from anywhere. Just kidding I guess, but...

We have over 80,000 players in our database and most have answered this question... Which colleges are you most interested in?

It becomes fairly obvious that the northern kids favor the southern and western colleges. And to no ones surprise, the southern kids also favor the southern colleges. Until that changes, evening up the playing field in college will never happen.

It seems most players have a desire to play in the warmer weather climates. Not sure, but I think that means the colleges in the warmer climates will always have the most important advantage of all... The most talented players!

Note: I didn't say ALL of the most talented players.
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
OB44,

Perspective is a funny thing. Patently aggregious to one, is business as usual for another.

The first part asks if the solution was
a. Worth it
b. The right solution

I would answer partly to both. So much politics and comprimise is involved in processes such as this, that it becomes convoluted to reach solution. Again, the perspective comes in of whether it was a good solution and my answer from the frozen tundra is, at least it's moving in the right direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by absolutes rather than degrees. Degrees of fairness are valid, and response to the degree should be appropriate. Was this the appropriate response to an admitted and stipulated unfairness? It would seem that the northern counterparts would deem it closer to that target than the southern, and therin lies the rub, perspective.

I never, and doubt many have, looked at this as the instant fix that equalizes college baseball. I wish detractors of the new rules would stop trying to throw that in the face of supporters 5 weeks into a season. It's going to take several years, if not more, for things to shake out and see the effects.

I am in favor of a uniform start date, as are most people. I am also in favor of all teams playing a specific number of innings over a specific timeframe. There are more ways to do that than the compressed schedule. What if we started 2/1 but outlawed midweek games until 4/1 (with the exception of spring break periods)? It would seem to level things quite a bit. Do you find this a more appropriate response to the problem?

My perspective likes the fact that the NCAA has taken a step. A step which admittedly, impacts southern schools with more change than northern, but from my perspective, one that bears more positive than not. How good an outcome can you expect from a diverse committee?
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
It seems most players have a desire to play in the warmer weather climates. Not sure, but I think that means the colleges in the warmer climates will always have the most important advantage of all... The most talented players!


I'd have to say your conclusion may have overstepped your evidence there.

The more obvious answer would be...
It could be the self fulfilling prophecy that most players aspire to play at the more recognized and competitive programs and play against better competition, which coincidentally is in the south and west. Fun in the sun may play a part, but we don't have the requisite knowledge to say how much (or at least haven't been presented with it yet). IMHO

i.e. Do top players want to go to Arizona because it's in Arizona, or because it is Arizona? My money says that if that program were in Maine, great players would still gravitate there for the opportunity to win it all.
Last edited by CPLZ
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
The only constant in life is change. People always resist it, especially those that are forced to give up advantages they have lived with for some time.

Good thing they had the emancipation proclamation before the internet.


Using Lincoln's emancipation proclamation is a very poor example. It declared freedom for slaves in certain states --- a positive move. The NCAA went in the opposite direction with their "proclamation". The NCAA simply placed shackles on the southern schools in their efforts to make them "equal" to the northern schools. There are two ways to achieve equality. The lesser can rise up to join the greater --- or the greater can be pulled down to the lesser. The Northern schools smile and baseball suffered.

Fungo
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
CPLZ,

My evidence would be hard to share. It is based on what we see on the information sheets players turn in to us. So I didn't really come up with any conclusion, the players did! Surely everyone has heard northern players say they just want to go someone warm = south to attend college.

Whether the colleges are the most recognizable and competitive does have a lot to do with that. Of course, the fact they also have the best baseball weather could easily be a major reason why they are so recognizable and competitive. They have more players wantimg to go there. I would call that an advantage!

Maine used to be a national power and lots of top players want to attend national power programs. However, Arizona State has been an even bigger national power and all things being equal... where would you want to play baseball?

It's simple IMO, there will always be a lot of talented players at many northern colleges. But until there is a big change in our climate, there will be a lot more who will go south or west.

There will always be some very good teams with lots of talent in the north and I think there will always be a much larger number of those type colleges in the south and the west. Guess we could look at the top 25 or top 50 every year and see that.

I don't know that it's all related to the climate, but the climate surely plays a part. For the most part the very best players from the north are signing with warm weather colleges. That is something that is very obvious. The very best players in the south, west or other warm climates are not often coming up to play at the northern colleges.

There are some exceptions and those exceptions would be based on your thoughts regarding players want to play at the highest level possible where baseball is a big deal in most cases. The majority of those kind of programs (not all) are located in the south and the west.

Never thought about that being fair or not, it's just the way it is at this time. The knowledghe we do have is... knowing where the majority of the top baseball programs are located and what are the things these colleges from coast to coast have in common besides having a great baseball program. Seems to me that the weather would be up there on the list pretty high.
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fungo:

Using Lincoln's emancipation proclamation is a very poor example. It declared freedom for slaves in certain states --- a positive move. The NCAA went in the opposite direction with their "proclamation". The NCAA simply placed shackles on the southern schools in their efforts to make them "equal" to the northern schools. There are two ways to achieve equality. The lesser can rise up to join the greater --- or the greater can be pulled down to the lesser. The Northern schools smile and baseball suffered.


Southerners did not look on the emancipation proclimation as equality, they fought for the right to be left alone and not told that they had to live by the same rules as northerners, so we disagree to the validity of the analogy. Again perspective, especially contextual perspective, is at odds.

Rules in sports are shackling. The idea is to give competitive balance, an equal chance at winning.

Your claim that baseball is suffering not only has no merit, it is far too early in the process to pass that kind of judgement.

quote:
originally quoted by pgstaff:
It's simple IMO, there will always be a lot of talented players at many northern colleges. But until there is a big change in our climate, there will be a lot more who will go south or west.


PG,
Let me give a hypothetical to try and illustrate the point I haven't explained all that well...
All things being equal, if a recruit has a chance to play at a northern powerhouse, or a southern less than mediocre, where does he go?

No doubt, the combination of climate and highly regarded programs live in the south and west. My point was, how many kids are making the choice because of climate and how many are making the choice because they can play big time baseball?

The question you ask your participants is "where" do you want to play. You're asking a geographic question and getting a geographic answer. I believe their preference for that geography is because the big time baseball lives there. The bonus, is that the weather is better.

I am not naive enough to believe that it will ever shift to the norths favor, I'd have liked to play basketball in a warm weather climate in college and that's an indoor sport.
Last edited by CPLZ
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
PGStaff what you say makes a lot of sense. I know you have a MUCH larger database than I to draw your conclusions from but I would like to add one tidbit. As a freshman in college my son was backed up by his good friend and team mate Kyle Bohm. Kyle could see the writing on the wall that he would be relegated to being a back up if he stayed in the SEC. He transferred to Michigan and became a force to be reckoned with in the Wolverine lineup and ended up being drafted in the 16th round. I'm convinced the warmer climate draws the players south but opportunites still exist in the north for many players. Bottom line is the better players will pass up opportunities at the northern schools just to play baseball down south. Advantage SOUTH!
Fungo
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Not to be taken the wrong way, but I really don't care if the south dominates college baseball. There are still just so many DI schools that play baseball and they all (most all) have the same 11.7 scholarships.

This obviously leaves a lot of opportunities at northern colleges for those who are not recruited or those who do want to stay close to home.

The truth is that most players in the south and west do want to stay fairly close to home. It is no secret that the states who produce the best prospects every year are California, Florida and Texas, followed by Georgia these days. Illinois and New York are the top two northern states. This is based on number of draft picks from those states over a long period of time.

So it's not just college baseball having more talent in the south and the west, it's also the high schools in those parts of the country have more talent.

This does not affect any individual from anywhere who has a lot of talent. I'm a northern person who has no problem with the top teams being from the south and the west. Some of the top individuals still come from the north. I don't understand the reason behind changing what is not a real problem. Talent is the only real way to even the playing field and I just don't see that changing any time soon.

I'm in Big 10 country. The Big 10 has produced quite a few high draft picks and Major League players. I've seen Big 10 and have seen SEC, Pac 10, ACC, and Big 12. There's no question that the Big 10 is not on the same level when it comes to overall talent. That just doesn't bother me at all and they would have to make some big changes to even things up.

Anyway, the uniform starting date makes as much sense as the changes made in the recruiting calender. It's college baseball, why wait to play the games? Will it make college baseball a better game if more northern colleges win more games? The southern and western teams have been dominating football also lately. It hasn't hurt football.

I think the NCAA worries about the wrong things. One of these days a team from the north will win it all. They will do it by doing a great recruiting job and doing a great job of developing their players. That's the only way to even the playing field. They will never do it by making baseball teams in the south or west suffer. They need to beat them in spite of the odds, not by changing the rules.

Just my opinion on the topic. I don't think changing the season will help recruit the best players. I mean the number of top players it takes to have a realistic chance to win national championships. A good start would be to keep the very best northern players from going to the south and the west schools. Not even sure if that would do it as long as the southern and western states are producing a much larger number of the best players.

It's just the way it is and IMO that's OK!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
NC and Oregon are downright toasty compared to where we live. That doesn't even account for the snow. And there are states even further north than us.

In a state like Illinois there can be a gigantic difference in temperature from south to north. Minnesota and Wisconsin can be brutal. BTW, Minnesota has produced a lot of Major League players. So has Wisconsin come to think of it.

North Carolina is like the tropics compared to those states. Smile
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
Not exactly on point, but my sons play D III in Virginia and in February and March, we play a number of schools coming down from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Vermont, etc. We hear from the visiting parents on a regular basis that their guys haven't been outside at all until they arrive to play. Lots of photos get taken of our gorgeous field with green grass. One father from Vermont told me last week he still had two feet of snow in his front yard at home.

A lot of these schools end up playing pretty good baseball as their season progresses, but our track record seems to be that we win about 90% of the games against the snowbirds in these early games. Of course, our guys are outside, even though it's chilly, from mid-January on.

By the end of the season, their snow melts and some of these schools play pretty darned good baseball. Are they at a disadvantage early on? Absolutely, but by NCAA tournament time, the northern schools seem to do just fine.
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
OB44,
You had to go to the ears, huh? My friends say I look like a taxicab coming at them with the doors open. Go ahead, pile on, it's an easy target. Big Grin

This is an excellent discussion, the most civil and well thought out yet presented on the topic that I've seen. Too bad RZ1 is scamming away in the south (hat and sunglasses to protect his northern identity), or he'd have my back! (or at least his footprints would be on my back from him taking the lead Smile)

In the end, the south will still have advantages that just can't be overcome without moving baseball to a fall season. I'm in favor of doing what we can to equalize, yet realize true equality is probably unachievable.

Fungo is right, advantage south.

P.S. The forecast is for 4" to 9" of snow tomorrow evening into Sat morn. Woo stinkin' Woo
Last edited by CPLZ
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
I heard a couple experts on the subject claim that there is no certainty in Global Warming.

They said that over the last 20 years the average temperature had risen by one degree. Then last year the earth actually cooled by the whole one degree it had gained over the last 20 years. So the average temperature is exactly what it was 21 years ago. They also said that the ice caps are larger than ever at this time.

When asked if they thought the odds were good that we had a serious problem, they mentioned it is 50-50 whether the problem will be Global Warming or Global Cooling.

These were scientists, I don't have any knowledge in this stuff, but found what they had to say very interesting.

Sorry for changing the subject.

BTW, This is the longest winter and latest spring I can ever remember where we live.
Last edited by PGStaff
OLDSLUGGER8OLDSLUGGER81,000+ posts
The forecast for the Great lakes region for the opening of Conference play are highs in the 30's with snow and brisk northern winds blowing in to all stadiums aligned according to Hoyle.

The forecast for the S and W teams isn't that !!

These games should be postponed. If they are not, baseball isn't meant to be played in these conditions and performances are truly affected adversely.

Programs that reside in the US Regions that experience the full effect of 4 seasons of weather compete assbackwards. Their fields are basically idle during the summer months and snow covered the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the championship season. These are facts.

Forget about the distribution of talent and all that junk. All these kids have tremendous talents. If the NCAA wants to continue to have a warm-weather heavily influenced season and tournament, so be it. My beef isn't really about who wins and who loses on the scoreboard, or who totes the trophy home. It is about playing the game in better conditions.

If the NCAA wanted to level the playing field as far as the tournament and CWS, they would revert back to true regional participation, throw out the RPI which is based on hoops and football, and formulate a way to provide an opportunity for more northern participants.

The compressed schedule, which appears to challenge pitching depth by disallowing certain teams to run on a 3 man rotation has some merit baseball-wise, but is only a small part of whatever the NCAA is trying to do. The problem northern teams have is simple. They have to leave the great indoors and go RPI shopping the first 4 weeks of the season, usually failing miserably.

The S and W have no basis for argument.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Forget about the distribution of talent and all that junk. All these kids have tremendous talents.


Slugger.

You make some good points, but are you saying the talent gets distributed equally? When I look at the talent at Arizona State or other top S and W college vs most all of the northern teams, I do not see equal distribution of talent. What I do see is 18 very talented recruits going to ASU next year (minus those who sign pro contracts). We all know that there is not enough room or money for all 19 recruits, but they still signed with ASU. Many of these players could have received a better deal from a northern college, but still chose ASU. U of Georgia also signed 19 during the early signing period.

To me, this just shows that the combination of a good program and a good location can cause talented players to pass up more money elsewhere.

It's a numbers game. The best player or highest draft pick in the country could come from anywhere. However, when you add depth to the equation, the southern and western colleges have more of it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I do think many top high school prospects think about the advantage of playing in a better climate. Anyway, that has been our experience.
OLDSLUGGER8OLDSLUGGER81,000+ posts
PG, I agree with the attraction of certain programs and locations, and that a select few northern players opt that way, say a slugger to GT and an ace RHP to UNC while other kids may have reasons to stay up north.

I would say the distribution of pitching favors the better climates moreso than the distribution of offense. The northern teams that have bona-fide arms can usually compete a little better.
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
Interesting topic. CPLZ, I sure respect your view on this and applaud you're determination to articulate it.

But having grown up in the North (Ohio), the discussion about where players want to go got me to thinking about when I was in HS and what I would have done if recruited nationally in any sport.

I know this...I sure dreamed about going to UCLA or USC as I watched their suntanned cheerleaders in short sleeves at the Rose Bowl in January...especially when compared to the Ohio State or Michigan cheerleaders! Big Grin (Forgive me, I was young!) And seeing fans in shorts at college basketball games in Florida or California definitely made me more interested in heading south or west myself.

I didn't have the financial resources to make my "dream" come true. Frown Not immediately anyways. So as an undergrad at a large midwestern school where co-oping was a requirement for graduation...I did all I could to get to warm weather! In fact, most of my classmates tried hard to do the same. We competed hard for those co-op jobs in the south and west.

So I guess we can argue all day about leveling the playing field. Speaking frankly, I'm in agreement with the intent of O44's starting post...I don't see it as all that important. Life is unfair...all over the place. We deal with it. Otherwise, there are lots of other problems similar to this one to fix in college sports and some favor the northern schools (ask a Pac-10 fan if he/she thinks the Big East got too many breaks in the NCAA basketball selection!). You can't "fix" every dang thing!

But what I do know is true...at least from my and my college classmates' perspectives was that at ages 15-21 it was a distinct goal of the majority of us to get to a warmer place during the winter months. Its hard for me to imagine that today's youngsters see it a whole lot differently. Cool
Last edited by justbaseball

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