bballman,
The game continues to change and there's no fair way to compare records of the past. How can records established before baseball was integrated be compared to today's records? We do it anyways.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
This may be dumb but this is how I understand it after you guys start using these big words.
On a performance scale from 1 (terrible) to 10 (awesome) I look at it like this
A player may normally be in the 4 - 6 range when he is healthy. He gets hurt and he's now a 1 or 2 but he takes a cortisone shot and he goes back up to the 4 - 6 range. No harm no foul in my mind.
But if the player isn't hurt then he takes PEDs then he goes from the 4 - 6 range to the 7 to 9 range without the work / practice that goes along with getting better.
Sports have to be able to evolve and change with the times, technology and information out there. Yes players today have an advantage in terms of diet, exercise and things like that over older players but that is the natural evolution of the game. If we stick to the everything is a enhancement then NASCAR would still be on dirt tracks in vehicles going 80 MPH.
All athletes want to be bigger, stronger and faster but there is a work ethic involved that puts everyone at and equal chance. Player A can bust his butt and work out but he's got a ceiling as to how good he's going to get as compared to Player B who does the same thing. But when Player C takes a PED and surpasses both of them without hardly any of the work involved it's wrong.
Analogy makes sense coach except that steroids do no good without the work. You can take steroids all day long and if you don't bust your butt in the gym, they do nothing. What steroids do is help rebuild your muscles faster so you can get back in the gym earlier. In other words, if you would normally go to the gym Mon, Wed, Fri using Tues and Thurs to recouperate, you can now go to the gym everyday because the recouperation time is shorter. You still have to work hard, in fact the advantage is that you get the opportunity to work even harder than the next guy. No work + steroids = nothing.
The other thing steroids will not give you is the talent. There are probably hundreds of other players out there other than McGuire and Bonds who used steroids and did not have the base talent to break the records. They don't get the press because no one cares. They only care because these guys broke the records and are high profile players. Their talent level is beyond question in my opinion. The other guys would have performed better than they normally would have, but the base talent wasn't there to go as far as McGuire and Bonds.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
bballman,
The game continues to change and there's no fair way to compare records of the past. How can records established before baseball was integrated be compared to today's records? We do it anyways.
CADad, that is exactly my point. Steroids is just another one of those things, not the only one. The only reason it is so high profile and controversial is because of the records that were broken. If McGuire had hit 60 HR's that season, steroids would not even be an issue. They are just another part of the evolution. A part that has now been deemed to be too unfair. I don't think the players should be so vilified for taking that step. They are now banned, something else will come up at some point. We are a competitive society and players will always be looking for an edge. What is OK at one point in time will probably at some point be looked at as unfair down the road. The game changes and evolves. Steroid use was something once viewed upon as OK by owners, coaches, doctors, fans, players. Now it is not. We move on. We don't need to treat these players as pariah's.
Seems to me that some of what we are debating is levels of tolerance of different performance enhancers or enablers. I’ll renew the contention that ANYTHING that allows an athlete to train or compete at a higher level that they could do in their natural condition is a performance enhancer/enabler.
The real issues are what enhancers/enablers should be legal; what enhancers/enablers should be illegal; what are the near-term and long-term impact of these different enhancers/enablers; what should be done about each of these in our sport; and what should we be teaching our young athletes?
Someone rightly commented that this is a discussion forum that may well be read by HS Athletes, like many of our sons. To my son, and those athletes, I would say this:
Fact: The competitive athlete is a creature who is constantly pushing the limits in an effort to become the best he/she can be, and to compete and win at the highest level possible. You will consistently find that those that become the very best are driven by a passion and a drive to become the best they can be. To become the best you can be, you must push your limits ... within limits.
Fact: For as much as we don't want to admit it, sometimes, there is still an element in the athletic culture that measures an athlete's "heart" by his (or her) ability to "play hurt", or "tough it out". Fans, friends, family, teammates, Coaches, and organizations want to see the player on the field -- competing. As an athlete, I expect you to feel this pressure; but there are right choices and wrong choices in how you respond to this pressure.
Side Note: Anybody else ever play through a concussion or other serious injury because "the team needed you"; you were "a gamer"; you're a "winner"; or you did not want to be seen as being "weak"? … Probably not some of my better life choices
Fact: When there is money & recognition involved (salaries, scholarships, championships) many people will ignore rules, laws, or safety limits in pursuit of "the prize", no matter what the cost. The bigger the prize, the greater becomes the temptation to blow through the stop lights. This is true in every aspect of life. This is an ethics, character, and integrity issue. The athlete that breaks the rules – who cheats -- does not have the bigger heart, they have the weaker character.
Fact: There is a difference between playing hurt, and playing stupid. To hobble out on a sore leg, and to give your all to the team – that is playing hurt. To shoot up that leg so you can't feel the pain, or the pain of the next injury, is something else – that is playing stupid. To take dangerous, or illegal medications, without medical supervision; "to get stronger" or "to help heal and get back on the field" is stupid. Every competitor will have to play hurt sometimes ... nobody has to play stupid.
Fact: We operate in a culture that rewards instant gratification & results. Every athlete has a limited window of time within which to compete. There is constant internal and external pressure to become bigger, faster, stronger, better ... NOW. There are no shortcuts to LASTING success. Do the hard work. Become the best you can be. But do it the right way, and do not cheat to try to force an outcome or a timeline that your body cannot achieve naturally.
Fact: Left to their own devices, many athletes will break the rules, break the law, and/or ignore potentially devastating long-term consequences in order to compete and win today. The same competitive drive that allows someone to become the very best, can push them over the line if they are not being held in check by a clear moral code, and held accountable by those in authority over them (Parents, Coaches, Doctors, Leagues, etc.). Again, this is an issue of CHARACTER, not COMPETITIVENESS.
At the end of the day, there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way to do things. You can choose to play by the rules, or you can choose to cheat. Just because nobody catches you does not mean you are not cheating. Over the long-haul of life, it is true that you can only cheat yourself.
Be darn careful about what you put in your body, and just how far you are willing to push to become "the best", or to "win". You are a uniquely designed and built piece of high-performance equipment; the peak of your potential is unknown, and the path to realizing your full potential will vary from everyone else around you.
Remember: Even if you have a Hall of Fame career, you can expect to spend many more years outside of a baseball uniform than inside of a uniform. The choices you make today will not only affect your performance on the field today, but the quality and duration of the rest of your life.
There is no game that is so important to win as to merit putting your long-term health and personal integrity at risk.
The real issues are what enhancers/enablers should be legal; what enhancers/enablers should be illegal; what are the near-term and long-term impact of these different enhancers/enablers; what should be done about each of these in our sport; and what should we be teaching our young athletes?
Someone rightly commented that this is a discussion forum that may well be read by HS Athletes, like many of our sons. To my son, and those athletes, I would say this:
Fact: The competitive athlete is a creature who is constantly pushing the limits in an effort to become the best he/she can be, and to compete and win at the highest level possible. You will consistently find that those that become the very best are driven by a passion and a drive to become the best they can be. To become the best you can be, you must push your limits ... within limits.
Fact: For as much as we don't want to admit it, sometimes, there is still an element in the athletic culture that measures an athlete's "heart" by his (or her) ability to "play hurt", or "tough it out". Fans, friends, family, teammates, Coaches, and organizations want to see the player on the field -- competing. As an athlete, I expect you to feel this pressure; but there are right choices and wrong choices in how you respond to this pressure.
Side Note: Anybody else ever play through a concussion or other serious injury because "the team needed you"; you were "a gamer"; you're a "winner"; or you did not want to be seen as being "weak"? … Probably not some of my better life choices
Fact: When there is money & recognition involved (salaries, scholarships, championships) many people will ignore rules, laws, or safety limits in pursuit of "the prize", no matter what the cost. The bigger the prize, the greater becomes the temptation to blow through the stop lights. This is true in every aspect of life. This is an ethics, character, and integrity issue. The athlete that breaks the rules – who cheats -- does not have the bigger heart, they have the weaker character.
Fact: There is a difference between playing hurt, and playing stupid. To hobble out on a sore leg, and to give your all to the team – that is playing hurt. To shoot up that leg so you can't feel the pain, or the pain of the next injury, is something else – that is playing stupid. To take dangerous, or illegal medications, without medical supervision; "to get stronger" or "to help heal and get back on the field" is stupid. Every competitor will have to play hurt sometimes ... nobody has to play stupid.
Fact: We operate in a culture that rewards instant gratification & results. Every athlete has a limited window of time within which to compete. There is constant internal and external pressure to become bigger, faster, stronger, better ... NOW. There are no shortcuts to LASTING success. Do the hard work. Become the best you can be. But do it the right way, and do not cheat to try to force an outcome or a timeline that your body cannot achieve naturally.
Fact: Left to their own devices, many athletes will break the rules, break the law, and/or ignore potentially devastating long-term consequences in order to compete and win today. The same competitive drive that allows someone to become the very best, can push them over the line if they are not being held in check by a clear moral code, and held accountable by those in authority over them (Parents, Coaches, Doctors, Leagues, etc.). Again, this is an issue of CHARACTER, not COMPETITIVENESS.
At the end of the day, there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way to do things. You can choose to play by the rules, or you can choose to cheat. Just because nobody catches you does not mean you are not cheating. Over the long-haul of life, it is true that you can only cheat yourself.
Be darn careful about what you put in your body, and just how far you are willing to push to become "the best", or to "win". You are a uniquely designed and built piece of high-performance equipment; the peak of your potential is unknown, and the path to realizing your full potential will vary from everyone else around you.
Remember: Even if you have a Hall of Fame career, you can expect to spend many more years outside of a baseball uniform than inside of a uniform. The choices you make today will not only affect your performance on the field today, but the quality and duration of the rest of your life.
There is no game that is so important to win as to merit putting your long-term health and personal integrity at risk.
quote:The game changes and evolves. Steroid use was something once viewed upon as OK by owners, coaches, doctors, fans, players. Now it is not. We move on. We don't need to treat these players as pariah's.
I just cannot understand it if you are seriously proposing that steroid use is comparable to the change in the game brought about by integration? I don't get it?
To say that steroid use was viewed as okay by fans and players, especially the players who were not using steroids is just plain wrong, in my view.
The fact there was not a process in place to regulate the use of steroids and to punish their use is not, in my opinion, a reason to say let's treat this like other past developments and move on. It is not.
This is a challenge to the core of baseball and its integrity. It is not just a player issue by any means. Just because everyone who used may not be known or punished does not mean we forgive everyone who did use.
Come on infielddad. I'm replying to the the fact that the game continues to change part of the post. The integration was just another specific example.
I really don't see it as changing the integrity of the game any more than prolonging a players longevity by having Tommy John surgery. Bob Gibson didn't have it avialable to him or he could have set all kinds of records. How is that any more fair than the steroid issue? It happened in the course of the evolution of science and the game. It has now been deemed unfair, so don't do it anymore, but the numbers stand.
I really don't see it as changing the integrity of the game any more than prolonging a players longevity by having Tommy John surgery. Bob Gibson didn't have it avialable to him or he could have set all kinds of records. How is that any more fair than the steroid issue? It happened in the course of the evolution of science and the game. It has now been deemed unfair, so don't do it anymore, but the numbers stand.
quote:I really don't see it as changing the integrity of the game any more than prolonging a players longevity by having Tommy John surgery.
Boy, to compare and equate TJ surgery and steroid use as being equal for the integrity of the game, makes clear to me that we have fundamentally different views on the integrity issue in baseball and, I would expect, the definition of integrity.
I will leave it at that.
In the heat of the debate, I fear I may be sounding like more of a zealot than I really am regarding this whole issue.
I will reiterate that my point in all of this is to say that there are many, many ways that players of today have advantages over the players of the past. Steroids is just one of them.
I do not condone steroid use.
Steroid use will have lasting, long term ill effects on your health.
In no way should any of you young players take steroids. Work your butt off and earn whatever you get the hard way.
I think I have probably said enough on the subject as we can go round and round and not see this issue eye to eye no matter how much each of us tries to articulate his POV. I'll do my best to leave it at that.
I will reiterate that my point in all of this is to say that there are many, many ways that players of today have advantages over the players of the past. Steroids is just one of them.
I do not condone steroid use.
Steroid use will have lasting, long term ill effects on your health.
In no way should any of you young players take steroids. Work your butt off and earn whatever you get the hard way.
I think I have probably said enough on the subject as we can go round and round and not see this issue eye to eye no matter how much each of us tries to articulate his POV. I'll do my best to leave it at that.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
This may be dumb but this is how I understand it after you guys start using these big words.
On a performance scale from 1 (terrible) to 10 (awesome) I look at it like this
A player may normally be in the 4 - 6 range when he is healthy. He gets hurt and he's now a 1 or 2 but he takes a cortisone shot and he goes back up to the 4 - 6 range. No harm no foul in my mind.
But if the player isn't hurt then he takes PEDs then he goes from the 4 - 6 range to the 7 to 9 range without the work / practice that goes along with getting better.
Sports have to be able to evolve and change with the times, technology and information out there. Yes players today have an advantage in terms of diet, exercise and things like that over older players but that is the natural evolution of the game. If we stick to the everything is a enhancement then NASCAR would still be on dirt tracks in vehicles going 80 MPH.
All athletes want to be bigger, stronger and faster but there is a work ethic involved that puts everyone at and equal chance. Player A can bust his butt and work out but he's got a ceiling as to how good he's going to get as compared to Player B who does the same thing. But when Player C takes a PED and surpasses both of them without hardly any of the work involved it's wrong.
Analogy makes sense coach except that steroids do no good without the work. You can take steroids all day long and if you don't bust your butt in the gym, they do nothing. What steroids do is help rebuild your muscles faster so you can get back in the gym earlier. In other words, if you would normally go to the gym Mon, Wed, Fri using Tues and Thurs to recouperate, you can now go to the gym everyday because the recouperation time is shorter. You still have to work hard, in fact the advantage is that you get the opportunity to work even harder than the next guy. No work + steroids = nothing.
The other thing steroids will not give you is the talent. There are probably hundreds of other players out there other than McGuire and Bonds who used steroids and did not have the base talent to break the records. They don't get the press because no one cares. They only care because these guys broke the records and are high profile players. Their talent level is beyond question in my opinion. The other guys would have performed better than they normally would have, but the base talent wasn't there to go as far as McGuire and Bonds.
bballman I obviously didn't know that and thank you for informing me. I guess I should have realized that since I knew you couldn't just take steroids and get buff but alas I didn't. Learned something new today.
But I think it just reinforces my next decision to bow out of this conversation. I don't truly know what I'm talking about and I don't really want to talk about it in the first place. I believe I've made my stance clear on the whole steroids issue in the Big Mac thread. So I'm done with this thread and the Big Mac thread. You guys enjoy this and work out a solution and let me know what it is
I'm heading over to the pitching, hitting, fielding, catching and coaching forums to talk some baseball.
No problem coach. I am kind of tired of it myself. When the Tiger thing came out, I got sick of it quick and got angry about all the hype about it. Would not listen anymore. After watching MLB channel last night, started feeling the same way. Now today on the board. Gotta get away. Have fun at the field.
quote:I'm heading over to the pitching, hitting, fielding, catching and coaching forums to talk some baseball.
coach, based on your explanation, I think you were understanding and explaining things just fine, thank you.
On the other hand, if you are going into the hitting forum, now that takes some patience and wisdom...hit with backspin, hit with top spin, short to the ball, you are chopping down on the ball, linear, rotational, start with the hands, start with the shoulders, start with the hips, belt buckle stays parallel, belt buckle rises, hit for power, hit ground balls...and many others.
Uh, when you finish there, can you come back here and help me understand what they are saying, who agrees on what, and is anyone right?
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
I will, to the best of my ability, steer my son away from drugs, including marijuana (whether it is legal or not). I will also steer my son away from steroid use. I don't think I would even promote a cortizone shot. To my knowledge, that is just masking the condition, rather than dealing with it.
A couple of things here.
Comparing anabolic steroids to cortisone is the equivalent of comparing marijuana to spinach because they are both green and leafy. I doubt you would protect your son from spinach for fear of giving him the idea that marijuana might be good for him too.
Cortisone is only an anti inflammatory. It doesn't mask pain. I am a veteran of 35 years worth of cortisone from my first shoulder reconstruction when I was 16 years old. Back then, it was straight cortisone, they had to strap me to a table for my quarterly shot because it hurt so bad. Eventually they started mixing lidocane, an anesthetic, in with the cortisone, then it wasn't nearly as bad. There can be some theraputic advantage to lidocane, as it will mask some pain for a temporary period.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
There are indeed limits on the number of shots within a defined time period. I have some recollection of 3 within a 6 or 12 month time frame, not sure which.
If I remember right, the side effects include weakening of tendon structures.
The limits on cortisone is due to locality. Three per locality are generally considered max per annum. Cortisone will stay localized in small doses. Too much and the drug goes systemic, a sort of cortisone poisoning. Cortisone poisoning has symptoms that range from mimicing high anxiety, to mimicing a full blown cardiac arrest. Been there, it ain't fun. The good news
it only last a WEEK TO TEN DAYS!!! ouch babe. quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Why do I say creatine should be banned? Bulk adds to bat speed as long as there is sufficient strength to rotate the body at or near the same speed. Creatine helps create bulk, even though it doesn't directly help with strength, that wouldn't be there without it. Therefore it is a PED.
Actually, Creatine is a naturally occurring element of red meat. It may be the most studied nutritional supplement ever.
Your claim that it adds bulk, is only partially right. It adds water to muscle fiber. That water, in and of itself adds bulk because it has mass, but it adds no muscle.
According to most sports nutritionists, the biggest obstacle to athletic peak performance is muscle dehydration. Having hydrated muscles, allows the athlete to maintain his peak for a longer period of time before fatigue. Creatine fully hydrates the muscles and allows for longer peak performance during workouts, which helps build more muscle.
An athlete could just as easily get his creatine from eating a steak before working out as ingesting a supplement.
That super hydration has two potential negatives also. The bulkiness you refer to can limit flexibility some. Also, creatine can cause muscle pulls in athletes that don't fully hydrate. It's hugely important for the athlete using creatine to maintain a state of full hydration to avoid muscle pulls.
According to the book, Advanced Sports Nutrition, by Dan Benardot, the single most performance enhancing drug an athlete can take? Caffeine! The NCAA and other organizations do test for it, however the threshold is a whopping 2000mg, or the equivalent of 10 caffeine tablets. They are testing for the extreme user. ***Edit...I meant to say "legal"..."single most performance enhancing LEGAL drug"
The problem with caffeine is that the body builds up a tolerance to it so the regular user needs more and more to reach the same plateau of effect. Because of that, caffeine use as an enhancement would really only be effective once and perhaps twice, per week.
Did anyone notice that McGwire never said what type steroids he took---all he said was that he took them to heal---perhaps they were not anabolics--I have been on steroids numerous times and infact subsequesnt to my eye operation in September I have been on steroids every day and continue to do so---the steroid helps heal and prevents pain as well in the process.
I have had steroids for arthritis numerous times as well as for my broken back---call them enablers/ eh nhancers or whatever you want but they enabled me to function normally almost immediately and with no pain. As with any "medication" everyone reacts differently. Fortunately I react positively almost immediately to pain killers et al.
"Greeneies" were used in many cases to overcome the inhibitors (hangovers)
Oddly enough we can talk all we want until our jaws fall off but illegal PEDS will always be with us just they have and are presently
Closing note: are you aware thet RED BULL is now being sold in "shots"--talk about a quick kick
I have had steroids for arthritis numerous times as well as for my broken back---call them enablers/ eh nhancers or whatever you want but they enabled me to function normally almost immediately and with no pain. As with any "medication" everyone reacts differently. Fortunately I react positively almost immediately to pain killers et al.
"Greeneies" were used in many cases to overcome the inhibitors (hangovers)
Oddly enough we can talk all we want until our jaws fall off but illegal PEDS will always be with us just they have and are presently
Closing note: are you aware thet RED BULL is now being sold in "shots"--talk about a quick kick
No comment!quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Did anyone notice that McGwire never said what type steroids he took---all he said was that he took them to heal---perhaps they were not anabolics--I have been on steroids numerous times and infact subsequesnt to my eye operation in September I have been on steroids every day and continue to do so---the steroid helps heal and prevents pain as well in the process.
I have had steroids for arthritis numerous times as well as for my broken back---call them enablers/ eh nhancers or whatever you want but they enabled me to function normally almost immediately and with no pain. As with any "medication" everyone reacts differently. Fortunately I react positively almost immediately to pain killers et al.
"Greeneies" were used in many cases to overcome the inhibitors (hangovers)
Oddly enough we can talk all we want until our jaws fall off but illegal PEDS will always be with us just they have and are presently
Closing note: are you aware thet RED BULL is now being sold in "shots"--talk about a quick kick
Sooo you have used Steriods and families still entrust their sons to their future college careers
How did you like Bobby Knight say Gatorade is a PED!
CPLZ,
On the tendon damage issue as a side effect, this is what I was referring to:
"Too many cortisone injections can cause tissue damage or tendon rupture. Again it depends upon the location of the injection. Multiple tennis elbow injections are very safe, but only a limited number of trigger injections are advisable. Other areas such as Achilles tendons are rarely injected for fear of tendon rupture."
On the tendon damage issue as a side effect, this is what I was referring to:
"Too many cortisone injections can cause tissue damage or tendon rupture. Again it depends upon the location of the injection. Multiple tennis elbow injections are very safe, but only a limited number of trigger injections are advisable. Other areas such as Achilles tendons are rarely injected for fear of tendon rupture."
CPLZ,
I'd recommend getting the creatine from red meat and other natural sources if it can be done while eating reasonable amounts. Otherwise I still figure it is a performance enhancer and should be banned considering that it also has some risks if not taken properly.
BTW, Well written post and I expect most people to disagree with me on the creatine so no problem there.
I'd recommend getting the creatine from red meat and other natural sources if it can be done while eating reasonable amounts. Otherwise I still figure it is a performance enhancer and should be banned considering that it also has some risks if not taken properly.
BTW, Well written post and I expect most people to disagree with me on the creatine so no problem there.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
CPLZ,
On the tendon damage issue as a side effect, this is what I was referring to:
"Too many cortisone injections can cause tissue damage or tendon rupture. Again it depends upon the location of the injection. Multiple tennis elbow injections are very safe, but only a limited number of trigger injections are advisable. Other areas such as Achilles tendons are rarely injected for fear of tendon rupture."
I had heard of this fear, but in my limited experience (meaning thankfully that I've never had to have trigger point or achilles injections
), my doctors have told me that I am not at risk of that. My cortisone experience is limited to shoulder, knee, back, and tomorrow, ankle (actually called tarsel tunnel, similar to carpel tunnel, except very rare).
TR,
I assume that in general you have not been prescribed anabolic steroids although I certainly wouldn't have an issue with it if medically necessary as I don't think you are at a point in your career where you are competing on the field.
I doubt very much that McGwire was talking about using anything but anabolic steroids. It is reasonable to assume that he was prescribed corticosteroids to relieve inflammation at various points in his career and did so just like virtually every baseball player does at some point due to injury. I doubt very much he was referring to that.
I assume that in general you have not been prescribed anabolic steroids although I certainly wouldn't have an issue with it if medically necessary as I don't think you are at a point in your career where you are competing on the field.
I doubt very much that McGwire was talking about using anything but anabolic steroids. It is reasonable to assume that he was prescribed corticosteroids to relieve inflammation at various points in his career and did so just like virtually every baseball player does at some point due to injury. I doubt very much he was referring to that.
Since this is an area where experience isn't necessarily better, I hope you do well and continue to keep the "experiences" limited.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
CaDAD
I think he said exactly what he wanted to say and leave the fans "assuming" things as they have all along---he said nothing definitive as far as I am concerned
I think he said exactly what he wanted to say and leave the fans "assuming" things as they have all along---he said nothing definitive as far as I am concerned
OK TR.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
"... Other areas such as Achilles tendons are rarely injected for fear of tendon rupture."
Thinking back, I remember that in the Army, each time I broke in a new pair of combat boots, I'd wind up with tendonitis in my Achilles. They'd let me wear tennis shoes for a week, continuing with regular duties and assignments, then back into the affecting boots with no problem.
I had my archilles injected--it was stretched to the point that it was ready to snap--he also gave me a prescription for high heeled cowboy boots to take the stress off the tendon---the dose was a three week dose--pain ceased immediately and knock on wood I had no problem since
OK, we'll give you the cowboy boots. But, you're gonna have to come up with something much better to explain the puffy shirt.
Talk to my manager
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
he said nothing definitive as far as I am concerned
"I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989-1990 offseason and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again," McGwire said in his statement. "I used them on occasion throughout the '90s, including during the 1998 season."
Pretty definitive.
quote:My cortisone experience is limited to shoulder, knee, back, and tomorrow, ankle (actually called tarsel tunnel, similar to carpel tunnel, except very rare).
Well the tarsal tunnel isn't rare, but I guess maybe tarsal tunnel syndrome is
Everybody has the tarsal tunnel (two in fact) but inflammation of the tarsal tunnel I'm sure is likely often due to tendonitis of the flexor tendons or the tibialis posterior tendon.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
inflammation of the tarsal tunnel I'm sure is likely often due to tendonitis of the flexor tendons or the tibialis posterior tendon.
What he said.
Jimmy03
Be so good to read my post again--I am referring to the fact that he he said NADA about what steroids he took---he said nothing at all as far as I am concerned
Be so good to read my post again--I am referring to the fact that he he said NADA about what steroids he took---he said nothing at all as far as I am concerned
TR, he didn't say NADA. He said he could not remember the names of what steroids he took. Amongst other items, however, he did he also talk about requesting immunity to testify and having the request be presented to the Attorney General who refused to provide him immunity for testifying about his past steroid use.
So far as I know, when a doctor prescribes a corticosteroid, the patient does not need to obtain immunity from criminal prosecution for the lawful use of a legal drug.
Immunity from criminal prosecution is considered when someone has engaged in criminal activity.
So far as I know, when a doctor prescribes a corticosteroid, the patient does not need to obtain immunity from criminal prosecution for the lawful use of a legal drug.
Immunity from criminal prosecution is considered when someone has engaged in criminal activity.
infielddad
I keep forgetting all you legal beagles---I am just a poor retired construction guy---to me when he does not give an answer as to what he took that is saying nothing
I keep forgetting all you legal beagles---I am just a poor retired construction guy---to me when he does not give an answer as to what he took that is saying nothing
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Otherwise I still figure it is a performance enhancer and should be banned considering that it also has some risks if not taken properly.
You could never ban creatine, your body produces it naturally and you ingest it everytime you eat red meat.
Creatine is the most studied nutritional supplement, because it is the most misunderstood.
An athlete could create the same risk of dehydration and muscle pulls by ingesting a diet high in red meat and not hydrating sufficiently. Even without creatine, a dehydrated (not in the clinical sense of organ dehydration, but in the athletic sense of muscle dehydration) athlete puts his muscles at risk.
An athlete that takes responsibility for properly feeding his machine will have no problem with creatine. The ones at risk are the quick fixers, looking for the magic bullet. They are at risk whether you are talking multivitamins, creatine, resistance training, and are probably the most susceptible to considering anabolic steroids as an option, IMHO.
All I do is post within the context of this site. On this site, I am a baseball fan and the parent of a former player who is now coaching.
On this site, to me TR, you are a baseball fan, baseball coach and the operator of College Select baseball.
With that context, it isn't what McGuire said.
It is what we choose to hear, in my view. You choose to hear NADA.
I don't choose that option. I choose to hear he does not remember the names of the illegal steroids he used and place it in the entire context of the interview including apologizing to the Maris family, his teammates, seeking immunity from criminal prosecution, and the admission of how using steroids impacted on his life. I choose to hear him say he wishes he had been tested so this interview and these disclosures of his steroid use did not need to happen.
In my opinion, most who engage in conduct with drugs choose to say NADA.
As one illustration, Jeff Allison never acknowledged or admitted to the use of oxycontin. Fooled lots of baseball people along the way by never admitting, by saying NADA, and having baseball folks hear NADA and not bothering to listen or pay attention to all the other aspects being communicated though his words, actions and conduct.
Tyler Hooton never acknowledged or admitted using steroids, he said NADA, but he lost his life.
Placed in an additional baseball context, A-Rod sat in front of the TV cameras and adamantly denied any use and even denied he had ever been tempted. He said NADA.
From my view, I believe our son has chosen a very difficult path in life.
The baseball part is easy.
But, along the way, he will have a number of players where the baseball part is easy but life off the field will not be. Like it or not, eventually, he will coach a player or players who will have an issue with drugs and/or alcohol and within that context, the use of PED's.
He can ask and most certainly they will provide NADA. He can certainly choose to "hear" just NADA. Lot's easier to just hear NADA and move on.
Or, he can choose to educate himself to learn about the obvious effects of PED's and steroids, he can understand NADA does not equate with the truth, especially in this context, and he can take a stand that just because the player said NADA, or players in the past may have used greenies, stimulants and the like, it does not mean NADA for this player and his relationship with him.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when oxycontin is abused.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when steroids are used.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when a player puts on 20-30 lbs of muscle during an off season.
Coaches and fans can choose to hear NADA when McGuire says he does not remember what he used but needed immunity from criminal prosecution to be granted by the US Attorney General before he would testify about his steroid use. Heck even Bud Selig is so silent right now that the head of Olympic Drug testing standards clearly includes Bud as one choosing to hear NADA.
I have no issue or judgment of your choice to hear NADA and don't intend to convince you to choose to hear anything else.
For myself and my son, as we talk about this issue and what it means for him as a coach, I will encourage him to be fully educated on these types of issues. I will encourage him to choose to hear within a context that NADA does not equate with the truth, when all the other information shows otherwise. I will encourage him to know and accept the importance and responsibility I believe coaches have as teachers, mentors and the difference I believe they need to make in the lives of their players,especially as it relates to PED's.
I will encourage him to hear NADA and choose to hear more.
On this site, to me TR, you are a baseball fan, baseball coach and the operator of College Select baseball.
With that context, it isn't what McGuire said.
It is what we choose to hear, in my view. You choose to hear NADA.
I don't choose that option. I choose to hear he does not remember the names of the illegal steroids he used and place it in the entire context of the interview including apologizing to the Maris family, his teammates, seeking immunity from criminal prosecution, and the admission of how using steroids impacted on his life. I choose to hear him say he wishes he had been tested so this interview and these disclosures of his steroid use did not need to happen.
In my opinion, most who engage in conduct with drugs choose to say NADA.
As one illustration, Jeff Allison never acknowledged or admitted to the use of oxycontin. Fooled lots of baseball people along the way by never admitting, by saying NADA, and having baseball folks hear NADA and not bothering to listen or pay attention to all the other aspects being communicated though his words, actions and conduct.
Tyler Hooton never acknowledged or admitted using steroids, he said NADA, but he lost his life.
Placed in an additional baseball context, A-Rod sat in front of the TV cameras and adamantly denied any use and even denied he had ever been tempted. He said NADA.
From my view, I believe our son has chosen a very difficult path in life.
The baseball part is easy.
But, along the way, he will have a number of players where the baseball part is easy but life off the field will not be. Like it or not, eventually, he will coach a player or players who will have an issue with drugs and/or alcohol and within that context, the use of PED's.
He can ask and most certainly they will provide NADA. He can certainly choose to "hear" just NADA. Lot's easier to just hear NADA and move on.
Or, he can choose to educate himself to learn about the obvious effects of PED's and steroids, he can understand NADA does not equate with the truth, especially in this context, and he can take a stand that just because the player said NADA, or players in the past may have used greenies, stimulants and the like, it does not mean NADA for this player and his relationship with him.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when oxycontin is abused.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when steroids are used.
Coaches can choose to hear NADA when a player puts on 20-30 lbs of muscle during an off season.
Coaches and fans can choose to hear NADA when McGuire says he does not remember what he used but needed immunity from criminal prosecution to be granted by the US Attorney General before he would testify about his steroid use. Heck even Bud Selig is so silent right now that the head of Olympic Drug testing standards clearly includes Bud as one choosing to hear NADA.
I have no issue or judgment of your choice to hear NADA and don't intend to convince you to choose to hear anything else.
For myself and my son, as we talk about this issue and what it means for him as a coach, I will encourage him to be fully educated on these types of issues. I will encourage him to choose to hear within a context that NADA does not equate with the truth, when all the other information shows otherwise. I will encourage him to know and accept the importance and responsibility I believe coaches have as teachers, mentors and the difference I believe they need to make in the lives of their players,especially as it relates to PED's.
I will encourage him to hear NADA and choose to hear more.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
infielddad
to me when he does not give an answer as to what he took that is saying nothing
To me when he said he took steriods and gave a timeline of his illegal acts, that is saying something.
Jimmy03
You can think as you wish
You can think as you wish
McGwire is likely providing as little information as possible on his use, timeline and what he used to try and make himself come off as a pitiful soul who's naive. These are world-class athletes in their profession making a ton of loot and when these guys start saying they "don't remember" or aren't sure", I don't buy one oz. of it. These guys know exactly what they're doing and what they're taking. As a professional athlete, a big part of their livelihood is maintaining their bodies so there's no way they don't know what they're taking unless they're dumb as a pile of rocks.
If they came out and just admitted they did it to gain the edge, cash in on a big payday and try and shatter records, at least they'd earn a bit more respect on what and why they did it.
If they came out and just admitted they did it to gain the edge, cash in on a big payday and try and shatter records, at least they'd earn a bit more respect on what and why they did it.
It must not have happened, it's not really out there, everything looks fine from here.
Cortisone....lovely stuff.
Used to be said it dissolves cartilage...have no idea if that is true. All I know is sure helped with a knee issue enough to allow me to play; shot wasn't very fun but worth it.
Used to be said it dissolves cartilage...have no idea if that is true. All I know is sure helped with a knee issue enough to allow me to play; shot wasn't very fun but worth it.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
CaDAD
I think he said exactly what he wanted to say and leave the fans "assuming" things as they have all along---he said nothing definitive as far as I am concerned
OMG!!!!!!!!