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While Washington officials may feel they are doing the right thing by shutting down Strasburg to protect him in the long run, I think they goofed in their handling of the situation in several ways.

The assumption that this team will be back multiple times in the playoffs and World Series as stated by manager Johnson is assuming a lot as many things can go wrong. Just ask the Pirates, Orioles, and all the teams that have gone years, even decades without playoff and certainly without World Series appearances.

There is still no scientific method to prove that resting his arm after an arbitrary number of innings will do ANYTHING to protect him in the longrun. Show me conclusive proof that this has worked in the past. Starters now work between 200 to 240 innings a season, much less than the starters of the past decades before the 90's yet arm injuries and surgeries continue to mount.

The team should have planned ahead and pitched him on a six or seven day rotation for a month or two or perhaps started him with shorter outings in April and May or maybe not pitched him at all in the early going. They could have shut him down for one month at some point. No different than Sabathia being out and then coming back.

This is highly unfair to the team members who are getting their only shot for a title and that elusive ring. I know Rizzo the general manager states that Washington's pitching is extremely deep and they will win without him but this guy is a special pitcher and there is no way the Nationals are as good without him especially in short series'.

How do yall feel about this?
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Its a good question that many throughout the media are debating right now.

My son is a pitcher in the Nats system, so I have more than a 'passing' interest.

Of course there is no clear-cut, absolutely 'correct' answer. Either way, no one is sure!

However, I did hear some commentators present a well-reasoned defense of the Nats approach in this scenario over the weekend and it lined up with my own son's comments about pitcher conditioning and recovery. Their reasoning had to do with getting a pitcher into a time-tested 'rhythm' of rest days between starts and how stretching him out between starts may have in fact disrupted that and been detrimental.

At this point my son is now a bullpen pitcher. But for his first 3 years in the minors he was a starter. He felt that the regimen of activities between starts on a 5-man starting rotation made his arm feel better than at any time in his career before then...even at the end of the year...and better than the 6-day rest between starts in college.

So for now...listening to 'experts' and listening to my son...I am going to fall on the side of the Nats at this point...that they're doing the right thing and doing it in the face of tremendous pressure.

For now...until "proven" otherwise...I am with them. Wink
Last edited by justbaseball
Are you an orthopedic surgeon or an MLB GM?

They made their decision prior to the start of the season...just as they did with Jordan Zimmerman last year. I respect the powers that be had the balls to stand by their decision.

Rizzo has never "stated" that the Nats will win without Strasburg. As a matter of fact, he has publicly said very little about the situation. 99.7483% of what "was said" has been media speculation.

Ever hear of a couple of guys namer Prior and Wood? The Nats brass has never said they know more than anyone else. They have always said they are doing what they "think" is the right thing.

All that said, I'm a Nats fan and love how fast they have turned things around...AND would love to see Stras pitching as long as the season lasts...but I have little problem with a front office having long term care for a player (right OR wrong)...any player...and not falling to public opinion.
Last edited by dblemup
quote:
Originally posted by Three Bagger:
While Washington officials may feel they are doing the right thing by shutting down Strasburg to protect him in the long run, I think they goofed in their handling of the situation in several ways.

The assumption that this team will be back multiple times in the playoffs and World Series as stated by manager Johnson is assuming a lot as many things can go wrong. Just ask the Pirates, Orioles, and all the teams that have gone years, even decades without playoff and certainly without World Series appearances.

There is still no scientific method to prove that resting his arm after an arbitrary number of innings will do ANYTHING to protect him in the longrun. Show me conclusive proof that this has worked in the past. Starters now work between 200 to 240 innings a season, much less than the starters of the past decades before the 90's yet arm injuries and surgeries continue to mount.

The team should have planned ahead and pitched him on a six or seven day rotation for a month or two or perhaps started him with shorter outings in April and May or maybe not pitched him at all in the early going. They could have shut him down for one month at some point. No different than Sabathia being out and then coming back.

This is highly unfair to the team members who are getting their only shot for a title and that elusive ring. I know Rizzo the general manager states that Washington's pitching is extremely deep and they will win without him but this guy is a special pitcher and there is no way the Nationals are as good without him especially in short series'.

How do yall feel about this?


What makes you think the limit is arbitrary?
No I'm not an orthopedic surgeon or a GM but I have just as much chance of being right in this guessing game as they do, especially the GM's who OFTEN make decisions that are idiotic. Show me where Strasburg is now assured of being healthy by this decision. If the orthopeic surgeons truly know so much about baseball related arm injuries, why are there more and more breakdowns while pitching less and less innings. The truth is, they DON'T KNOW how to prevent the injuries in a baseball context and whoever figures out how to prevent injuries doing something the human arm wasn't meant to do will be one rich person.

Yeah, I heard of Prior and Wood but they were burned out more by throwing 130 plus pitch games than by throwing 180 to 200 innings in a season. Prior's use in college probably had some contribution to his breakdown. Ever heard of Ryan, Palmer, Jenkins, Gibson, Drysdale, Carleton, J. Perry,, Seaver, G. Perry, Sabathia, Lolich, Feller, R. Roberts, etc. They pitched a lot of innings at a young age too, but seemed to have had some success.

One point I'm arguing with is that there is no assurance that Washington will be a perennial playoff team. The other is that this could have been handled better. I can't think of one healthy professional athlete that has ever been held out of the playoffs to save him for a tomorrow that may never come.
Last edited by Three Bagger
quote:
Originally posted by Three Bagger:
No I'm not an orthopedic surgeon or a GM but I have just as much chance of being right in this guessing game as they do, especially the GM's who OFTEN make decisions that are idiotic. Show me where Strasburg is now assured of being healthy by this decision. If the orthopeic surgeons truly know so much about baseball related arm injuries, why are there more and more breakdowns while pitching less and less innings. The truth is, they DON'T KNOW how to prevent the injuries in a baseball context and whoever figures out how to prevent injuries doing something the human arm wasn't meant to do will be one rich person.



You made the assertion, now support it.
I made the assertion that NO ONE has had success preventing injuries no matter what they do. If you can't see that then you've got your head in the sand. Millions are thrown away every year on pitchers that break down in every different pitching scenerio. Look throughout recent baseball history and you'll see that that's a fact. So I guess you think pitchers are healthier today? The one way we can protect arms of pitchers is to never pitch them--that will prevent arm injuries for sure. Washington is adopting a variation of this. Don't pitch your best pitcher when you need him the most. That's great news for the fans.
quote:
Originally posted by PIS:
I've heard a lot of "experts" discuss this topic.

What I have yet to hear is what Stras has to say.

You're telling me that you have a chance to win a ring and you'd say, "nah...don't want to hurt my arm...need to be fresh for next year."

He's a grown man. He should make his own decision.

What do you think Verlander thinks about all this?

Rich
www.playinschool.com


Sometimes (actually, most of the time) we need someone to screw our head on straight.
Measuring by innings is asinine and won't get you anywhere, that's for sure.

Nonetheless, I don't mind that they want to protect his arm.

I also think it makes some sense to keep him in rhythm instead of sending him to the 'pen to begin with or something else. I don't know if it matters whether he gets some extra rest or skipped starts, but I at least understand the logic in keeping him on an "every 5 days" schedule.

My general sentiment is that no reliable measurement or observation was used in deciding that it was time to shut him down. They just decided. I'd like to hear that they saw or heard something from him...not that he reached an innings mark that could have been reached by any of an alarmingly large range of pitch counts.

If he's healthy in the end though, that's what matters. They may be upset that they let this season slip away (possibly) though.
Quite truthfully, a lot of this is about the money. If Strasburg was just normal Joe Blow, most if not all ML teams would expect him to pitch or not have a job next year. But Washington gave Strasburg the largest bonus ever given to draftee so they are concerned about their investment. My main question is, does anyone else feel they could have handled this differently so that they wouldn't have gotten themselves in this quandry to start with. The excuse that they didn't know they would contend really makes me laugh.
Last edited by Three Bagger
Here is my take. If Rizzo and the Nats believed that they could be a playoff team at the beginning of the year, and they were going to impose a inning limit, then they should have kept Strasburg in extended spring training till around the middle of May. This would have allowed him to have innings available for the stretch run and playoffs. Just imagine the talk if the Nats fall in a postseason game 7 because they didn't have another arm. If they only knew then what they know now (record wise).
Strasburg is not the first pitcher to have an yearlong inning count limit. Jaba Chamberlain had one when he came up with the Yankees. How did that work out? There are other young pitchers right now on counts.

The difference is that Strasburg is Strasburg and the Nats are a potential WS team. I believe the Nats had no idea they were going to be this good when Rizzo made this decision. No big deal if they are a 500 team or worse. Now he can't go back on his word or he would look stupid.

Those getting the shaft are his teammates. They have a shot at a title and their best player is not allowed to play. That sucks for them.

Somebody asked how Strasburg feels about this. He requested, and had, a meeting with the team arguing to stay in the rotation. He lost that discussion.
Last edited by fillsfan
Of course its about money and investment. They made this decision way before they were in contention and you have got to respect them not bowing to pressure.
Mlb is no different than any other employer that tells you what to do. They pull the strings and they hold all of the cards. As far as letting his teammates down last time I checked there are 9 players on the field. Plus with rosters expanding extra arms are available.
quote:
threebagger said...While Washington officials may feel they are doing the right thing by shutting down Strasburg to protect him in the long run, I think they goofed in their handling of the situation in several ways.

There is still no scientific method to prove that resting his arm after an arbitrary number of innings will do ANYTHING to protect him in the longrun. Show me conclusive proof that this has worked in the past. Starters now work between 200 to 240 innings a season, much less than the starters of the past decades before the 90's yet arm injuries and surgeries continue to mount.

The team should have planned ahead and pitched him on a six or seven day rotation for a month or two or perhaps started him with shorter outings in April and May or maybe not pitched him at all in the early going. They could have shut him down for one month at some point. No different than Sabathia being out and then coming back.

This is highly unfair to the team members who are getting their only shot for a title and that elusive ring. I know Rizzo the general manager states that Washington's pitching is extremely deep and they will win without him but this guy is a special pitcher and there is no way the Nationals are as good without him especially in short series'.



Threebagger,

I agree and disagree. I think the Nats have handled this extremely well. THey made a decision and stuck with it. Davey Johnson is manager of the year if you ask me, and Rizzo should be considered as Exec of the year. There has been no wavering whatsoever. Folks that live here, have come to accept it as no big deal. The national media I think is trying to make it an issue. I agree the Nats could have done something with the numbere of days in the rotation, but that may have affeeted the rest of the rotation. THat is the only "stone unturned" that I can think of. I haven't seen or heard any statement from Rizzo that this is about the future and future playoff/world series runs. This has always been about the health of one of their starting pitchers, as it was last year with Zimmerman (who is also having a fantastic 2012).

I've heard interviews with former pitching coaches and pitchers, and they all side with having Strasburg pitch. They are convincing, and understandably want Strasburg to pitch. Pitchers are programmed to want the ball on their day. Pitchers think like warriors. I think it takes a very intelligent front office and firm management to protect their pitcher from himself. He is almost at 170 innings, and has the national media counting every pitch. Don't you think that is a little over the top? Do you know the number of innings for any other pitcher? Probably not. I just wish this story would go away (because it is not going to change) and the national media would pick up on the success of the Nats and some of the their other players. I can't tell you how many close games and come from behind games they've won. They are exciting to watch.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
Tom Verducci has written at least two pretty in depth articles on this type of issue, referencing Strasburg in part.
In the one written in January, before the season started, he discussed the history of young pitchers who have a dramatic increase in innings in a single year and the downside evidenced the following year:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...er.effect/index.html

In a more recent article he used the Padres organization to illustrate his point.
When the Nationals played in San Francisco, one of their executives was interviewed and this topic discussed. What came out if the Nationals have done considerable background and medical work on the impact of increased innings on those coming of TJ/UCL surgery. The biggest concern disclosed in the interview was the resulting impact on the shoulder in the first few years post TJ and the dramatic innings increase.
Since far fewer pitchers return to pre-injury form post serious shoulder issues, this was one stated reason for the caution.
While it is not scientific or medical, Verducci's following this issue for 10 years is certainly helpful and interesting on this discussion, I think:

"The extra work comes with a price. And the toll usually shows up the following season.

For more than a decade I've been tracking this price, which I call the Year After Effect, and which some places, including internal metrics used by at least one organization, referred to as the Verducci Effect. I began tracking it because Rick Peterson, when entrusted as the Oakland pitching coach with the golden arms of Barry Zito, Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder, believed in managing the innings for a pitcher from one year to the next. Too big a jump for too young a pitcher would put a pitcher at risk the next season for injury or regression.

From his philosophy I used a rule of thumb to track pitchers at risk: Any 25-and-under pitcher who increased his innings by 30 or more I considered to be at risk. (In some cases, to account for those coming off injuries or a change in roles, I used the previous innings high regardless of when it occurred.) I also considered only those pitchers who reached the major leagues. Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik, for instance, agrees that major league innings create more stress than minor league innings, so the effect is more profound.

The Effect has become easy to see over the years. In just the past six years, for instance, I flagged 55 pitchers at risk for an injury or regression based on their workload in the previous season. Forty-six of them, or 84 percent, did get hurt or post a worse ERA in the Year After.

Two out of the nine pitchers I red flagged last year actually stayed healthy or improved: Gio Gonzalez of Oakland (since traded to Washington) and Ivan Nova of the Yankees. More typical, though, were the regressions last year by David Price, Phil Hughes, Mat Latos and Brett Cecil, all of whom I red-flagged -- and all lost life on their fastball and saw their ERA jump by more than half a run. (The troubles for Hughes and Cecil were especially alarming and showed immediately in spring training.) Similar scenarios occurred with pitchers I red-flagged in the past, including Cole Hamels, Chad Billingsley, Rick Porcello, Mike Pelfrey, Josh Johnson, Joba Chamberlain and Scott Kazmir."
quote:
The extra work comes with a price. And the toll usually shows up the following season.


Before the season it was suggested the Rangers' staff should be watched due to a number of guys that had big innings jumps last year.

Holland...was on the DL for a while but seems to be back and ok now.
Lewis...surgery, out for the year
Feliz...surgery, out for the year

You don't hear Nolan talking about going deep and ignoring pitch counts/innings this year. Pitchers rarely go past 7 this year.

...and Strasburg's jump will be ~150 innings this year right? Warrants all the caution front office is showing.
Last edited by Tx-Husker
It's good to see that someone is willing to give up their best pitcher when a World Championship is possible.

Typically the World Series is where caution is ignored. The big prize (World Champions) is the ultimate goal of every franchise. This is where you see pitchers going on short rest just to win the championship.

Maybe Washington thinks they can win it without him. Maybe they think they will be in this position often in the future.

I am a bit curious of why they brought Strasburg back in to a game that had a very long rain delay. They did that a week or two ago. IMO, that almost sends an opposite message to a guy you are trying to protect.
There was an article in ESPN Magazine about pitching counts and innings limitations being junk science. Limits are based on fatigue creating failed mechanics which in turn may create arm problems. It makes sense. But what doesn't have any science behind it is the number of pitches made while not fatigued with quality mechanics having any effect on the number of pitches or innings thrown leading up to the limits.

Also pitchers going on the DL has doubled since five man rotations were implemented. The debate is, has the pampering of pitchers actually harmed them?

In direct relation to the Nationals and Strasburg, how many times do you think Dan Marino heard after losing the Super Bowl in his second season, "Don't worry. You'll be back several times."
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
I thought the Nationals were another year or two away from challenging in the NL East. Maybe, they did, too, and that's why they pitched Strasburg the way they did.
Like hockey, football and basketball, baseball has become very mediocre and balanced. In all four sports many teams can win it all, or at least come close.
quote:
Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
quote:
The extra work comes with a price. And the toll usually shows up the following season.


Before the season it was suggested the Rangers' staff should be watched due to a number of guys that had big innings jumps last year.

Holland...was on the DL for a while but seems to be back and ok now.
Lewis...surgery, out for the year
Feliz...surgery, out for the year

You don't hear Nolan talking about going deep and ignoring pitch counts/innings this year. Pitchers rarely go past 7 this year.


WS Champs lost Carpenter, Mc Clellan to major injuries since last year, Jaime Garcia (shoulder) down for a few months and Lance Lynn seems to be losing ground very quickly. Yes, there definetly is a price one pays to play for WS championship.

There is a philosophy out there, max out your pitchers and if they get injured, just call up another waiting to take his place.

It's refreshing to see that that Nats don't have that philosophy.
Last edited by TPM
infielddad,
I just saw your post, good stuff.

You and I have discussed "the verducci rule". I am not sure that most here are familiar with.

PG,
From my understanding the Nats placed a time limit on the delay to take him out. It may have fallen within that time, but I get your point for sure!
Last edited by TPM
The Verducci effect is by no means universally accepted and I'm rather skeptical.

And since we're giving anecdotes of post-WS starters, I thought I'd share the fate of the four starters my White Sox used when they own the World Series in 2005 in one of the most dominating playoff efforts in history (11-1 record).

Mark Buehrle (26yo) - 236 IP, 3.12 ERA 2005 -- 204 IP, 4.99 ERA 2006
Freddy Garcia (28yo) - 228 IP, 3.87 ERA 2005 -- 216 IP, 4.53 ERA 2006
Jon Garland (25yo) - 221 IP, 3.50 ERA 2005 -- 211 IP, 4.5 ERA (18 wins!) 2006
Jose Contreras (33yo) - 204 IP, 3.61 ERA 2005 -- 196 IP, 4.27 ERA 2006

Durability not really affected. Effectiveness, perhaps. Almost each one of those pitchers had a career year when they won the World Series and thus were due for some regression. You can look at it either way. Garcia is the only one that had any major surgery in his future, the rest remained remarkably durable.
JPontiac,
There is little doubt you are true in saying the Verducci effect isn't universally accepted.
However, I don't think it applies to the White Sox staff you have listed, in any way.
The analysis by Verducci is of pitchers who are/were under age 25.
The other aspects he analyzed was their innings from one year to the next increased by over 30 innings and how they performed the year following the one where innings increased by 30 or more.. It is the increase and the year following which is the point of his focus for young pitchers.
Using the Verducci factors, the two obvious exceptions to the rule would be Kershaw and Baumgardner.
Last edited by infielddad
I didn't mean to necessarily correlate the playoff pitching with the Verducci effect, I just didn't differentiate those two different thoughts. I was just adding more examples to those that pointed out examples of an apparent cost to going deep in the playoffs (youth or not).

The real interesting White Sox example I have for you will be Chris Sale.

2010 (amateur/pro combined) - 160 IP
2011 (pro reliever) - 71 IP
2012 (pro starter) 163 IP and counting. 2.93 ERA, 15-6, 1.09 WHIP, 9 K/9

My obvious qualm with the Verducci effect is that if a healthy Chris Sale does not have better statistics next year than this year, he should not increase his innings. If he wants his ERA lower than 3 again next year, I'll be shocked and happy. I expect him to be in the low 3's though, in all likelihood.

His handling has been different. They've monitored his recovery, coached him on in-game intensity, etc. He's had SEVERAL schedule breaks throughout the season and spent most of the season pitching on college rest with 5-6 days rest. Why are the innings high? Like his pitching coach said, limiting his innings doesn't make any sense because he is a dominating pitcher. He is more pitch efficient than others who have the same arbitrary innings limits. The Sox aren't going to pull him after 6 innings with only 75-80 pitches, just because 6 innings is a sufficiently long outing.

We'll see how it works, but I honestly like it better. They're now pitching him on normal rest for the stretch run, so we'll see how he responds. He has had no loss in velocity, etc. so far but he has had a couple tough outings. The question, as always, is whether those are simply a regression to the mean. The main question remains how healthy he'll be. Skinny guy, funky motion, huge innings increase, and has even vocalized problems with elbow pain in the past. We shall see!
Did anyone else see the "Open Letter" to Stephen Strasburg from Jim Kaat that was read by the lefty on the MLB Network Friday afternoon? Kaat spoke about pitching in the 1965 WS for the Twins versus Koufax and the Dodgers, and how it took another 17 years before he received a WS ring with the Cards in 1982. In short, JK advised Strasburg to do what's best for him...not for his parents...not for the Nats GM, but only himself. The Nationals have a good chance to go far in 2012, perhaps all the way? There's NO guarantee that they'll have this type of season again...hopefully #37 does the right thing, whatever the right thing may be?
That's how I feel, you never know for certain that he will get another chance. People take for granted that because Washington has some good young talent that injuries or other things won't happen and they'll fulfill their destiny as perennial contenders. If you look at baseball history, it is littered with teams that should have been consistant winners and somehow never quite made it.
WASHINGTON— A terrible outing might have earned Stephen Strasburg an additional start.
Strasburg matched his career low by lasting only three innings, allowing five runs Friday night in the Washington Nationals' 9-7, 10-inning loss to the Miami Marlins.
"To be honest with you, I think he just is thinking too much about the decision when we're going to shut him down," Nationals manager Davey Johnson said. "And he kind of wore it. HE DIDN'T LIKE IT. BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS."
"I can understand where he's at," he said. "And even in the conversations that I've had with him, he was having trouble sleeping, thinking about letting the guys down. So I understand his mood."


I was unaware the decision is his to make. How does Jim Kaat suggest he take the decision away from management?
Since when has Management and Labor agreed on anything? Now you throw "public opinion" in to the mix as the "other woman" sort of speak, and certainly the opportunity for a major disagreement exists.

Too bad the Nationals weren't concerned much earlier about protecting his arm. Perhaps, their actions would have prevented the surgery BEFORE it was necessary.

For whatever reason, they've come up with this course of action. They decided early in the year and have stuck to it. I applaud them for that. Not say I agree, especially from Strausberg's perspective, or his teammates. But, they have decided this is how they will protect their very expensive business asset, so be it!

Three Bagger is right, IMO, apparently there is more to "protecting arms" than Verducci, the GM's, orthopedics and or Pitching Coaches know. I don't understand why they can't seem to get a better handle on this? Why have the number ofTJ surgeries exploded in this modern era where we have more information than ever? If you are required to move portions of your body violently, in a repetitive manner, then it would seem obvious that preparing/conditioning the body for the increased activity is paramount. Doing less, WILL NEVER condition for more! Verducci has exposed the obvious aspect in that doing more quickly, without proper preparation, will most certainly result in injury.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Prime9:
Too bad the Nationals weren't concerned much earlier about protecting his arm. Perhaps, their actions would have prevented the surgery BEFORE it was necessary.
[QUOTE]

Can you explain how it was the Nats fault that he needed TJS? These things usually happen way before the actual injury occurs, and we all know what his work load was like in college.

As a parent of a pitcher who definetly had a hard time in a starters role, understand that it isn't everyday that you come across a gifted pitcher such as him. This guy is a super star and will be for years to come. There are really so very few guys out there that are superstar starters, more are average than great.

Wouldn't it be terrific if we really knew what could keep a pitcher from being injury free? It just doesn't work that way and mostly because all pitchers are different. So being that he is way different than the average starter (who can be replaced with another average starter), I understand why they decided, long before they were in first place, to stay the course. I would be very disappointed if they changed their minds from the original plan.

Using him from the get go was a great decision. Most really good coaches and managers use their strengths (and best pitchers on staff) to get to where they want to, and then rely on the rest of the team to do their part.

The Nats seem to have it all this season, if they are going to make a post season run for the championship, how the team responds and supports each other by stepping up will definetly determine their fate, not by missing SS. Last night's game was a great example of how good teams come from behind, despite losing their best pitcher to an early exit. Let's give thse other team members more credit than they are getting.

I am not sure why that letter was directed to him regarding what to do and what is best for him, he really had no decision in the plan, and he knew all along that he most likely would not be pitching after september.
Last edited by TPM

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