Cues for the little guys

swingbuster,

I work with many little guys and I don't water down anything I teach. They are a HUGE sponge and can apply the knowledge quicker than most older kids.

Of course, I don't get too technical with them.

Taking a cue from a coach on another site, I worked with a 6yo yesterday. He is the son of our pitching coach.

He was swinging during the stride. I told him to put his hands back, step to set his feet, and hit with his hips. Seemed to work and he was happy as he hit a lot of line drives up the middle off the tee. About all he could do for one session.

REDBIRD

I like that approach--"not too technical"-- yes they can be sponges but it has to be in their language and if shown they grasp it even quicker.

Swingbuster

Those one or two line drives will get him on track--nothing like a positive result to spur the young player on

TRhit

Teach the young guys to be aggressive and have fun. Hitting should be fun not stressfull. Be relaxed and attack the baseball. Controlled aggression. Teach them some basic fundementals and let them learn how to hit in a relaxed and fun environment. How many times have you seen the dad yell at his 9 year old son while taking bp for jerking an outside pitch or lunging at a curve ball. The kid is so nervous that he is going to get yelled at that he isn't having any fun and he can't wait to get out of the box or{pressure cooker}. Kids enjoy doing the things that are fun to them and they love to hear positive feedback. Praise them all you can and then quietly tell them "Hey don't pull the outside pitch let it get deeper and then take it the other way". "But hey you did a great job up there good job". Thats what kids need to hear. There will be plenty of time down the road to jump them when they make the same mistakes over and over. If you don't make it a positive experience when they are young you wont have to worry about it later because they will find someting else that is positive for them.

Each little guy will be different and at a different level at that age IMO.

Each will have things they need to work on.
If you try to teach them everything at once - they wont get anything.

Pick out the core elements that each kid needs to work on - and if you have the time - individualize the instruction. Complete the core steps before you try to refine anything else.

Speak to them in a language that a 9 year old can understand. And make them smile - regardless of their progress or lack thereof.

Thats what the youngsters need at that age IMO.

Went I coached T-Ball many years ago one of the first things I did w/ the little guys is place the ball on the tee with the label at the back of the tee. Then tell the batter to look at the writing on the ball and concentrate on hitting that spot. Maybe this is a little thing but it seemed to work with the little guys (and gals) who had a hard time w/ eye-hand coordination.

Teach them how to use the tee properly, where to position the ball for outside, middle and inside pitches. Tendancy for them is to have ball too far back. Comes from having a tee stuck in the middle of a home plate. Nick

Maybe it's my area but I couldn't disagree more.

The tendency I see is the T too far forward causing their axis to have to move to hit the ball. Hip slide, lunge, pull.

Coach May,

BINGO!

Young kids need to enjoy what they are doing. IMO They will find the things they enjoy and get very good at it.

While players are young they need to hear positive remarks. Great Play!, Beautiful Swing!, etc. Then they will respond much better when addressing the weaknesses. JMO

Tee work is a great place for a young one to start. It is something that you can do without anyone else around. Nick and Lamber.....I see a lot of what both of you are saying. It seems the kids will put the tee wherever and then just leave it there. Some up front too far and some back to far. A good clinic for Little Leaguers and their coaches would be on the proper use of the tee.

Coach May,

I really enjoyed your post.

quote:

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How many times have you seen the dad yell at his 9 year old son while taking bp for jerking an outside pitch or lunging at a curve ball. The kid is so nervous that he is going to get yelled at that he isn't having any fun and he can't wait to get out of the box or{pressure cooker}.

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This particular section is very true.

When my son was about 9, I was playing back a tape of a basketball game my son played. Many of us watched the silent game films when we were younger, so we tune the sound out.

But my wife said, "Listen to yourself." It was really ugly. I did not like that guy doing the hollering and yelling. My son probably didn't either.

When you take your video cam to the game some time and set it up, turn it around on yourself and watch yourself at a game sometime. Really.

It will cure you from yelling at your son and coaching from the stands in a heart beat.

Good dialogue,

I think the sequence hands back , set the feet, hit with the hips does help. Most little guys don't Load the shoulder so I put hands back to the front of the sequence. "Set the feet" seems to get some stride( which they all like ) without the word step with gets them going forward to much. I see kids with the tee way too far I front most often.

Pre Drivers license kids are fun to work with ;after that they get pretty smart all of a sudden

Lamber,

I know what you are saying and it is a very valid point. However, I was thinking about typical 6-7 year olds playing tee ball with the ball in the middle of the plate and them lining it up with the middle of their body because it is "home plate". That is too far back for a middle of the plate pitch.

Nick

I would encourage the dads to learn to sit on a bucket of balls and throw underhand front toss to their kids. The trajectory is much more appropriate, throwing strikes is easy and the kids will have a lot of success with it.

Nick

NickKio,

Great advice. I fell in love with front toss last season. Much easier to work on how to hit pitches in different locations, especially that outside pitch.

Jason

Heres a couple fun ones for the little guys. Can do both with front toss.

Using baseballs or wiffleballs - magic marker a few different colors - the size of a quarter on each ball - each ball gets one color dot. Do front toss and have the kids yell out the color as they hit it. Helps visual skills.

Get a piece of wood/plastic about 3-4 feet long- need only be an inch high and about 6-8 inches wide. Have them hit while standing on it. Tell them they cant fall off it when they hit. Helps them with developing balance.

Here's another one you can do. Throw a badminton birdie (shuttlecock) to them. Really helps them stay back. Got it from a college coach that uses it as a warm up station before games and especially before they face a junk baller.

CADad,

I like the birdie idea and the deflated basketball. I'm mad...I threw 2 old basketballs away this weekend

CAdad
Birdie idea great. Deflated basketball too. Mad..I threw away three old balls this weekend. Might see me chasing the trash truck.

swingbuster,

Have you seen Mankin's reply to me from a few months ago about recommending the deflated ball drill? He's big on the heavy bag, as you know, and he really was against the deflated ball drill. His reasoning made sense too.

YMMV.

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/12011.html

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Caution: I have absolutely NO credentials, so take everything I say w/ a grain o' salt!

Sandman,

I think I did see it but I had forgotten. His reasoning is probably correct. Been wanting a bag. Too cheap. Might break down soon to teach JV guys. It is fast for groups

FWIW, there's also a current thread on b-e which quotes much of what Jack reposted to me back in July.

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Caution: I have absolutely NO credentials, so take everything I say w/ a grain o' salt!

Sandman,

Mankin doesnt have to swing a bat into a 300 bag of sand - with the musculature of a young boy.
In fact - Jack aint swinging anything into a heavy bag. He's just talking about it and letting other folks give it a poke.

Its sad to read what he and others write on this subject - and if you really think about the timing required to do this heavy bag drill without injury - you may change your mind about its appropriateness for a growing young boy.
If the timing is wrong - (which i would guess in 99% of the cases it would be) you have a major problem.

Its just sad for me to read this stuff some times.

Sorry for the opinion against the stuff. I am not trying to be offensive - and I sincerely hope it works for you.

Game,

Something happens in my sons'swing from launch to follow through that is so fast I can't see it well. The result that I can see is "quick hands" in a bad sense. Somehow in the speed of the swing there seems to be a race to the ball and his hands beat his hips. What starts as a hip/shoulder launch morphs into a hands/arms swing too quickly. To me he is not always slotting his elbow and keeping it there through a portion of the torso rotation to maintain the palm/palm grip and arm positions. His hands come out of there( rear elbow extension) and pass or seem to try to overtake the hip turn somehow. I think a controlled yet accelerating swing to the point of contact, staying connected, helps that particular problem that might not be common to every hitter.

One thing Jack says that I totally agree" when you take the ball out of the picture ; you can focus on the launch and swing mechanics independant of hand to eye, ball flight issues and get kids more focused on one particular phase of the swing that you are trying to teach. When you have a defined /constant contact point (like the bag) it lets you see body part positions relative to each other at ball contact. Hitting the ball allows these parts to move past this point too fast to see well and communicate well. The bag/tire (whatever) contact becomes a real life freeze frame that can be telling and useful for teaching.

I agree that there could be injury if one swung incorrectly and rolled those wrist early but more cheerleaders are hurt each year than football players in pee wee football ( national fact). Swinging incorretly in a controlled manner might give an uncomfortable small jolt that might be negative feedback to the bad swing.

I don't make it a point to end up on the opposite side of the fence on your post or anyone elses . To give a different point of view( and this one is genuine) creates dialogue that I glean information from. Maybe you can better define the swing problem I describe.

Swing,

I appreciate your feedback. This subject has come up before and when I voiced my opinion on the subject, I wasnt treated as kindly and/or as intelligently.

Additionally, your description of the swing (and the problem) needs no improvement IMO. I am sure I could not have described it more accurately or more clearly.

Here is my point on the heavy bag drill:

With so many advanced diagnostic and training techniques available in the market today - it just doesnt seem to make sense to use this particular one given the risk involved - especially with kids that are still growing.

This particular drill caught my attention awhile ago - and I have discussed it with several "sports" specific physicians that I trust. To a man, they all have given it a thumbs down. Maybe - as physicians - they are being overly cautious - but when I combine their opinion with my own thoughts on the subject - I would have to agree with them.

I do understand your point about injuries and risk in any endeavor - but the way I see it is why add additional risk into the equation when it really isnt necessary?

Again - I appreciate your ideas on this subject - and please remember - as Leftydad is used to saying - my opinions and $.50 won't even get you a cup of coffee.

quote:

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Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Sandman,

Mankin doesnt have to swing a bat into a 300 bag of sand - with the musculature of a young boy.
In fact - Jack aint swinging anything into a heavy bag. He's just talking about it and letting other folks give it a poke.

Its sad to read what he and others write on this subject - and if you really think about the timing required to do this heavy bag drill without injury - you may change your mind about its appropriateness for a growing young boy.
If the timing is wrong - (which i would guess in 99% of the cases it would be) you have a major problem.

Its just sad for me to read this stuff some times.

Sorry for the opinion against the stuff. I am not trying to be offensive - and I sincerely hope it works for you.

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Thanks for the warning itsinthegame. But I wasn't referring to Mankin's thread in support of the heavy bag; rather, just to contemplate his thoughts on the use of deflated balls on a tee. I can see how it could cause kids to roll their wrists early/excessively.

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Caution: I have absolutely NO credentials, so take everything I say w/ a grain o' salt!

Risk is always considered along with the potential for reward. Hence the phrase
" risk/reward". We must consider the possibility that the surgeons have no idea or concept of the reward in this particular case. It that light the thumbs down will always arise.

I honestly believe that ALL training aids need competent adult supervision to get the desired result even something as benign as a batting tee.

In the days of skate boards, 4 wheelers, Play Stations, it seems the Big Bag is a safe alternative. BUT A lot depends on the swing problem that you are battling and the progress or lack thereof you are experiencing. I'm sure it is not for everybody, every situation, and every age. The age may be the biggest determing factor and the surgeons might clarify this point for us. Probably has to do with the age when the growth plates fuse at he wrist.

The bag is typically not filled with sand. Jack recommends sawdust or something similar. I use scraps of cloth. There is still a load on the joints etc with contact, but not as much as with sand, which would have little or no give. Caution is still advised because it is easy to overdo it, regardless of what is inside the bag.

Nick

Using a physician to ask a question about using a heavy bag is ridiculous.

Why not go to someone who would know the answer like a sports trainer?

What do you expect a physician to say?

They have no knowledge of the baseball swing. That is not their area or expertise. They obviously don't understand that all the energy is released before contact. There is no pushing into bag. The swing is on autopilot. The hands are simply holding onto the bat and will not absorb any energy at all when done correctly. The bag is a great hitting instructional tool.

I'm curious what their opinion is of lumberjacks. Have you ever chopped down a tree with an axe? Have the physicians? Just how does one finally get the tree to fall if you're damaging your arms/hands with each hit? If it was that dangerous you probably couldn't get through 5 or 6 swings. I mean there's nothing more solid and abrupt as an axe hitting a tree.

Of course, the answer is the energy is released with proper transfer mechanics that are very similar to siwnging a baseball bat. Done properly their is no injury risk. And, you'll only have to do it a few times to understand the difference between the right way and the wrong way. And therein lies the benefit of the bag. A ball on a T will not give you the same feedback. It leaves so it's difficult to see the end result. The bag will stop the bat and you can analyze the mechanics. You'll see the difference between pushing through the bag and the use of the proper mechanics. Hitting a deflated basketball promotes pushing through and incorrect transfer mechanics. Hitting a bag does not.

Finally, the heavy bag is not used to take 100's of swings at a time with. It is used to take a few swings to demonstrate the feel. I'd guess 5 to 20 swings at the beginning of each workout session to establish the proper mechanics and then you go to the T or soft toss or the cage.

By the way, a bat swung properly into a heavy bag would have about the same forces applied to the arms/hands as a ball on a string swung into the bag.

This is similar to physicians opinion on pitch counts. What else could they say? Maybe they should do a little research before they state their opinion.

A sports trainer understands the risk/reward trade off better than a physician. Obviously no swings or no throws offer the best risk from the physicians perpective.

I'm curious, did you even read the Batspeed link above? I know the physicians didn't.

Lamber,

The physicians I speak of specialize in pediatric/adolescent sports medicine. I prefer to heed their advice as it regards the human body - as opposed to a hitting instructor or a sports trainer. I believe their knowledge of the young body far exceeds that of a "sports trainer".

My experience with them has been exceptional. From injury prevention to rehabilitation. (Some are actually quite aggressive IMO - as it regards rehabilitation from injuries.)

None work with lumberjacks.

As for your quote:
"The hands are simply holding onto the bat and will not absorb any energy at all when done correctly."

How about when it is done incorrectly?

Lastly, the risk/reward tradeoff is not the decision of the physician.
That is my decision and my sons decision.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Warning.... He did almost cause injury last night dry firing the bat and decelerate it at contact point. He pulled his muscles on the back of his shoulder not bad but enough that he knew it. Stupid of me to let that happen...better off having something to stop the bat. So there are risk in evrything

When a bat traveling at high speed hits a heavy bag it stops quite abruptly. A large part of that momentum change is transferred to the hands whether the swing is "proper" or "improper". I don't know enough about physiology to know if that will result in injury but I do have enough of a background in dynamics to know that the hands will feel the impact.

The ball on a string may be roughly analogous to a bat when it comes to estimating the energy transferred to a pitched ball but the comparison breaks down completely when comparing the moments and reaction loads the hands see when a bat impacts a heavy bag.

One could also forget the engineering arguments and take a swing at a heavy bag with a bat. You'll feel it. Been there, done that.

RE: Hitting a bag for young players

The shock transmits into the joints (elbows,shoulders etc) which may not be fully developed and mature at the young age.

I ask you WHY HIT A BAG!!!!!

TRhit

On the subject of hitting a bag... My question here is my son works out some with a heavy bag (as in boxing) Can't imagine this is good for baseball players, particularly one who pitches. Any comments?

'07 Crafty Lefties Dad...

Swingbuster,

I coach a group of 10U kids and I don't "dumb down" too much of what I say. They tend to catch on very well with positive reinforcement.

TRHit and Redbird,

Fair question?

Hope for a simple answer but not confident.

Have you ever seen the Final Arc DVD and the pro player demonstrating the heavy bags use with a young girl and a young boy?

Nope, never seen it.

et tu TRhit?

TR,

I'd try to explain it to you but you won't put in the effort to understand.

CADad

There is quite a difference between "feeling" the bat hit the bag in the hands and causing injury when it hits the bag.

And to all......Why did I never feel an impact between ball and bat on the hardest hits of my career? Balls that traveled 350'-375' and left the park in right or left center.

Could it be because the hands had already released the energy?

Singbuster

They haven't seen the video but they can tell you that what's on it is wrong.