curious about your hs rules?

Are you at a private school or public, the private high school the kid was at had a policy for the school, to net it out, no to drugs, no to alcohol, no to cheating, and no to tobacco, if you screw up at school or out of school and they find out, first time you may survive with server punishment (they always can use clean up details), the second time you are most likely out, very little tolerance!

We have the typical heavy handed contract that is common in our area where the teachers, adminstrators and school board believe that they know better than anyone else what is good for our children. It is the big brother contract, where anything that happens outside of school has repercusions in school with regard to extraciricular activies. The assumption is that all parents are bad and that the school district should be preemptive handing out punishments for offenses that have nothing to do with or about them. Their reasoning is, "it's for the good of the kids". How nice of them to think themselves more important in the kids life than the parents.

They have just recently put together a committee to consider a drug testing program. Soon, perhaps we can start bugging phones, for the good of the kids, both parents and kids, because you don't want those pesky parents trying to interfere with raising the kids right. Hopefully science will find the gene that leads to troublesome kids, and then we can just segregate them into their own school, so they can't poison the minds of the good kids. You know good kids, their the ones that learn to sit back idley and let school boards pass heavy handed legislation for the good of the kids. After all, it's better to get along than fight for what's right, isn't it?

It's a good thing that teachers are so well adjusted and perfect so that they can oversee and administer all these great policies, for the good of the kids. We should just let school administrators run the country, we'd be so much better off without all those dang voters. Oh wait, we don't really vote, we just play democracy.

Now, with a full bullseye painted squarely on my chest...the soapbox is available...next!

I see nothing wrong with drug testing.

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

Same goes for all of the other "schools punishing for outside of school conduct" situations.

Don't put yourself in the situation to be in trouble and you WON'T be in trouble.

I'd imagine each State has some form of "regulatory/governing body" for academics & athletics. Here's the link to Univ. Interscholastic League, who creates the rules in Texas, in conjunction with Texas Education Agency. You'll find new legislation on drug testing, defibrilators, transfers, booster clubs, etc. I think you can order a hard copy, it's pretty extensive...

http://www.uil.utexas.edu/

Parent/student agreement:
http://www.uil.utexas.edu/athletics/forms/pdf/policy/steroid_agreement.pdf

Banned substance list:
http://www.uil.utexas.edu/athletics/health/banned_substances.html

quote:

by J Weaver: I see nothing wrong with drug testing.
If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

I assume you would include teachers & parents?


20dad, in our state contol is local & some sort of basic code is common, but agree w/CPLZ that many will attempt to overstep their bounds.

they often need reminded that their jobs as teachers & administrators comes from you the parent/voters ... and that their contracts are employment agreements, not blank checks or adoption papers

if the community act like sheep, they'll mostly be treated like sheep

jmo

Athletes at our high school aren't tested for drugs.

Anyone involved in extracurricular activities has to sign a form agreeing not to break the approx. 12 rules. In the case with baseball, for a first offense, a player would have to sit out for 30% of the total seasons games.

Our district drug tests. For the most part it is random and to participate in athletics you have to sign an ok to be drug tested. My oldest has been tested twice and my second, once. I don't have a problem with it. If you test positive, you are suspended from your sport 12 days. Although, I think our baseball coach has a no tolerance stance and will suspend you for the season. There are other rules, but for the most part the only "contract" you sign is for drug testing (I think). I guess I'll pay more attention next time to that little book they pass out -

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

OK, I'll tell you. Wrong, as it is defined, is a constantly moving target that is subject to the whims of the current feeling de jour of todays politicians. What is wrong? Is it stealing? Is it experimenting with underage drinking? Is it being at a party where drinking occured? Is it speeding? Is it not wearing your seat belt? Is it not picking up your dogs poop?

Take all those questions, starting with the first one, and they serve as a timeline of what has defined wrong in the view of politicians and school administrators. Right now, for suspension from a team or school, the timeline is at being at a party where drinking occured. You can be suspended for doing nothing other than being in proximity of someone elses violation...that to me, sounds like censorship and what business does a school have legislating that?

This year, the Dept. of Transportation is spending tens of millions of dollars threatening taxpayers with, "click it or ticket", and because of a catchy phrase, has decided that wearing a seat belt is worthy of threatening its consituency with police harrasment. How soon until that becomes "wrong" with school administrators. I suspect not too, because after all, it's for the good of the kids, right?

J. Weaver, you may think my examples ridiculous, but if you were old enough, you'd realize that 10 and 20 years ago, the things the higher ups have now said are "wrong", would have been considered ludicrous back then.

This is a slippery slope we are on when we start legislating "for the good of". Each time we do, we take a step away from the ideals of a "free" society. What made America great was not the conformation of its citizens to some arbitrary standards. It was the tolerance to allow individuality and expression. We seem to show very little of that these days, and by your comments, I think we are doing a poor job of teaching that to our children...

The larger question, that people don't seem to examine, is, what is the role of our schools? Is it to educate, or is it to instill a moral compass and values? Many, including me, would limit the reach of schools to simply education, leaving the morality and values lesson to the parents.

If the morality and value lessons are taught at home by the parents then what is the problem--if the parents take care of business then there are no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
If the morality and value lessons are taught at home by the parents then what is the problem--if the parents take care of business then there are no problems.

You are saying then that we should all have identical morality and values, or is it that there should be a minimum standard of morality and values?

Those should be determined by who, politicians, school administrators, dog groomers? Would those then be "THE" standards for the next 100 years, or would they be subject to whatever whim a politician deems neccesary to get him re-elected?

slippery slope? they must know what's good for us, after all, they ARE educators
their point IS .. they know better than parents how to take care of business with our kids


fortunatly both mine are out of hs ...

our code also had a 30% of season suspension for 1rst offense ...
BUT it could be reduced to 10% if student "self reported" (turned themselves in) - how cool is that!

FURTHER PENALTY REDUCTIONS could be had if the offending student turned in OTHER students ...
of course they had to squeal before the other student turned himself in or someone else turned them in, or they would lose credit for that penalty reduction.
*a lesson in negotiating & timing?*

theoreticly, if it was a large party and they "turned in" enough fellow students, they could "bank" their credits for a "get out of jail free" card on their next offense (or two)
*a lesson in good citizenship or facism??*

they also tried an anonymous hotline where parents of non-starters could disguise their voices in hopes of modifying the depth chart in their favor (used mostly by girl's sports)

**disappearing ink was used on ALL paperwork involving football players**
BUT, if perchance a football player's deeds got to the newspaper or involved a neighboring communitiy's police report, that player would be placed on the "spring track roster" so his suspension could be served, sometimes the suspension even cost them their "Track & field letter" ... seems harsh, but they never ran track anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
OK, I'll tell you. Wrong, as it is defined, is a constantly moving target that is subject to the whims of the current feeling de jour of todays politicians. What is wrong? Is it stealing? Is it experimenting with underage drinking? Is it being at a party where drinking occured? Is it speeding? Is it not wearing your seat belt? Is it not picking up your dogs poop?

My son was hauled into the middle school office and accused of being part of a bathroom drug deal. He was in a stall relieving himself when a drug deal occurred. Had one of the participants in the deal not said he wasn't part of it, he could have been in a lot of trouble. Our school district has a zero tolerance policy. This means no one has to come to a rational decision. They can just overreact.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

What is wrong? Is it stealing? Is it experimenting with underage drinking? Is it being at a party where drinking occured? Is it speeding? Is it not wearing your seat belt? Is it not picking up your dogs poop?

Right now, for suspension from a team or school, the timeline is at being at a party where drinking occured. You can be suspended for doing nothing other than being in proximity of someone elses violation...that to me, sounds like censorship and what business does a school have legislating that?

I am only saying that if baseball is that important, one would not let those rules get in their way of participating. I have seen people affected by the rules you mentioned and because of that, I don't put myself in the position to get in any trouble.

Stealing? ...Why do something as dumb as that in the first place.
Alcohol at parties? ...I take a pass on those.

I see nothing wrong with schools re-enforcing rules that parents SHOULD be teaching their kids.

You say that schools shouldn't enforce morals. Stealing, underage drinking, not wearing a seatbelt...those aren't moral rules, but laws.

Like TR said, if parents are doing quality parenting, then these re-enforcements of the rules shouldn't be difficult at all to work with.

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:

I see nothing wrong with schools re-enforcing rules that parents SHOULD be teaching their kids.

Now we have reached the crux of the situation...who sets the bar? Is it the school that should dictate to parents what rules should be taught to our kids?

How about the non fraternization rule. It is not illegal for a kid to be at a premisis where alcohol is served, yet the school district legislates penalties for legal activities. How about if the school district passed legislation that kids were not allowed into any building where consumption of alcohol is going on? Would that be ok? You'd have to go outside while Dad had a beer. But hey, we decided that kids should not view alcohol being consumed, so it's for the good of the kids!

The point is, where does it stop? Who sets the standards?

CPLZ

The standards should be set in the home by the parents---your standards may be different than mine---I could care less--I only worry about the standards I set for my kids and others when they are in my home or on my property---Funny thing with all the enforcement by school people we never had a problem with my kids as they grew up---perhaps the old school Italian upbringing had something to do with it

CPLZ I really don't want you to disagree with you because I really agree with you but I can see the other side from the schools point of view. Now that is because I am a teacher and see the other side everyday.

For every parent like you that will do the job of teaching good morals and values there are about six or seven parents who will not do their job. These are the ones who are creating problems.

I agree that a school should not pass a rule that says a kid is in trouble if they are at a party that has alcohol. That is too much.

I have kids who show up to class that don't have homework because they stayed all night at their boyfriend / girlfriends house. They stay over even if the parents aren't there but they do know. I have kids who drink with their parents and think it's ok for them to get drunk. I have kids who sit around and smoke marijuana with their their parents.

Our society is in trouble and can justify these rules because of the parents I just mentioned. The bad part is these parents are ruining things for parents like you. Your kid will mess up and face conseuqences because you are going to hold them accountable and this will teach them a lesson. Most kids will mess up and the parent is either not going to care or make an excuse for the kid - what does that teach?

I read somewhere that educated parents will have on average 2 kids while uneducated parents will have on average about 5 kids. That adds up to a lot of kids who will not and cannot make good decisions.

Overall I agree with you and support you but it's a more complicated situation.

Hmmmm, aren't there reasonable laws that prohibit parents getting their kids drunk and smoking marijuana? If those were enforced we wouldn't need the proximity laws.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:


I have kids who show up to class that don't have homework because they stayed all night at their boyfriend / girlfriends house. They stay over even if the parents aren't there but they do know. I have kids who drink with their parents and think it's ok for them to get drunk. I have kids who sit around and smoke marijuana with their their parents.

I agree with TR BUT kids are in trouble because their parents DON'T CARE.
I agree with CPLZ but the problem doesn't lie with taking away our rights, it's because too many people just don't care about the rights we have and so do their offspring.

Maybe schools should have the parents sign agreements.

My kids never had to sign anything in school, they knew if they got in trouble their problems would not be with the school, but with mom and dad.

Schools are trying to teach consequences to one's behavior, something parents don't do much of these days.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I read somewhere that educated parents will have on average 2 kids while uneducated parents will have on average about 5 kids. That adds up to a lot of kids who will not and cannot make good decisions.

Coach,
I too see the other side and the benefit that it may have with certain individuals...here comes the but...

but...in the prioritization of things, liberty is paramount. Once we begin the sacrifice of our freedoms, "for the good of", where does it end?

Let's take a seat belt law for an example, and this isn't meant to take a stand. There is a very good argument that seat belts not only save lives, but save a burden on taxpayers from less traumatic health effects in crashes. The problem, is that this is a law that protects me from me, with the only negative affect, financial to society. It is not the same as a smoking law that protects you from the injurious affects of my second hand smoke. So we as a society say, OK, we'll go with the seat belt law, "for the good of", in this case, society.

Seems reasonable, right? Except now we have set the threshold as, "an affect that creates a financial burden on society".

Well, what happens when the dermatology lobby shows up on Capitol Hill with overwhelming evidence that lack of sunscreen protection is costing billions in health care costs and creating a burden on taxpayers? Well, lets pass a hat and sunscreen law, "for the good of", society? Can't you see the television commercial now, "Elect Joe Blow, he promises to take a hard stand on health care reform, by passing the mandatory sun law saving taxpayers billions".

You think my example ludicrous? You would have said the same thing to the seat belt example 20 years ago.

The point is, I don't beleive government or school districts should play a role in protecting me from me, or think themselves of high enough moral fiber to assume my role as parent.

And just an FYI, we had three kids, two still surviving, my wife with an associates degree and me with several freshman years in college. By statistical analysis, we would fall in the uneducated category, but by most accounts, done a pretty fair job on the parenting end. Please don't assume that education and parental ability go hand in hand.

Good parenting isn't about education or even intentions, it's about effort.

P.S. Now that I've fully hijacked this thread, please turn this plane around and head for Cuba.

while i'm not a fan of big brother looking over your shoulder.the point as i see it is to hold the students representing the school or town to a higher standard. i'm just wondering how that higher standard should be enforced?
our state athletic committee has no formal standard it's up to each school to determine what they want.
parents sign this as well ,so they should have a hand in what they think it would be. ours as it is you pretty much just can't get caght breaking the law. the key word being caght,which is fine but we are going through a time of drug and booze abuse, that grabs the front page at least once a week.so what ever deters a kid from falling into the trap.



i'm not a big fan of rating each other out,not the best lesson to teach kids. and as the parent of a drug addict i have a different perspective than most. if you met my son and spent some time with him,you'd think what a nice kid. his parents did a great job with him. polite, clean cut, well spoken. then when you read about his endevers you'd think we were the worced parents alive. and when the wheels fall of the bus, you can't get them back on by your self.so i've learned when you paint with a broad brush, there will be a mess. very sorry to get off track.

but getting back to the question. i'm looking more for what is the higher standard for your school. and how is it enforced.
thanks for the answers, really makes you think.

Two of the 12 rules that the students in any extracurricular activities cannot do is use profanity or obscene gestures, this will result in a punishment because it is on the list of "rules" they agree to not break. By the way, I am not against this.

Interestly enough though,when my daughter was a Freshman last year, she checked out a book from the school library clueless about its contents; It was on a list of recommended books to read for her Comm. Arts class. It had an apple on the cover. After reading a few pages she said "mom, read what is in here". Throughout the book the "F" word was used many times, along with descriptive, suggestive doings and fantasies of a 15 year old boy trying to find his way through high school. She never did finish the book.

So I have to wonder if these same administrators who approved this book to be in the school library are the same ones that came up with the "I shall not use profanity" rule for the students.

depending on the home situation it's just a factor of who can parent your children more effectivly ..
their real parents or some administrators

the slippery slope -
our hs had a "zero tolerance" policy in place several yrs ago (don't know if still is) ..
a coach/teacher informed me that if there EVER IS any parental discipline "in process", do NOT discuss any details with him ..
because if he posesses "first hand info" (ie from a student or parent) of a school policy/code violation, he MUST follow district proceedures and it could start an unpleasant-unstopable chain of events that could affect my family and possibly others over a past situation that had already been handled by parents

(First part edited because it has been misunderstood and taken as "taking a shot" at his son who is a cadet and the Service Academies which was not the objective)

Anyway, I have no problem with a school saying their athletes can not drink, smoke, etc ANYTIME. Not only is it good for the kids, it's also good for the SCHOOL that the particular athlete is REPRESENTING.

I like J Weaver's response. "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to worry about." I understand one poster mentioned her son in the middle school restroom and it's unfortunate, but details were shook out and all straightened up.

Our school has the basic "contract". 2 weeks for the first violation, then 4, then a semester. I think it provides deterrence in VERY FEW kids... they just have become very good at hiding and then covering the behaviors that are against the rules.
There are some kids who wouldn't drink or steal whether they have a contract or not... there are others who would sign anything andthen do exactly what they are going to do... lie and deny; then let the chips fall where they may.

quote:

by bulldog: I like J Weaver's response. "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to worry about."

that is a catchy phrase, but in reality it depends on who is checking you out and what position his son/nephew plays


btw, how about this for timing? what goes around comes around? ..
ironic twist? .. goose vs gander? ..or just the "universe" setting things straight??


"Ohio lawmakers pass bill that requires a code of conduct for educators, creates a list of punishments for types of wrongdoing, and opens discipline files to freedom of info act"

State board considers changes to teacher discipline


TEACHER'S (spokesman) are totally, absolutely, 210% pist ..
the local media reports that they are, talking strikes, civil disobedience, & inferring civil disorder if it goes into effect

hmmm, that's the village I want raising my kids

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
[TEACHER'S (spokesman) are totally, absolutely, 210% pist ..
the local media reports that they are, talking strikes, civil disobedience, civil disorder & inferring violence if it goes into effect

But, but, but, it's for the good of the kids! Don't they understand?

Too funny, Bee!

do what I say kid (not what I do)

quote:

Coach,
I too see the other side and the benefit that it may have with certain individuals...here comes the but...

but...in the prioritization of things, liberty is paramount. Once we begin the sacrifice of our freedoms, "for the good of", where does it end?


The point is, I don't beleive government or school districts should play a role in protecting me from me, or think themselves of high enough moral fiber to assume my role as parent.

And just an FYI, we had three kids, two still surviving, my wife with an associates degree and me with several freshman years in college. By statistical analysis, we would fall in the uneducated category, but by most accounts, done a pretty fair job on the parenting end. Please don't assume that education and parental ability go hand in hand.

Good parenting isn't about education or even intentions, it's about effort.

P.S. Now that I've fully hijacked this thread, please turn this plane around and head for Cuba.

I have to admit you made a pretty good argument. When it comes to the statement of "if you are innocent then what does it matter if they do ....." I have to agree with you. Just because you are innocent doesn't give someone the right to test you just because someone else is doing something wrong.

I am very torn over this because CPLZ is right that we should be vigilant in our liberties and keeping them but we have some huge problems in our society. How do we fix them?

Last night I had parent teacher conferences and one of my student's parents came to see me and their kid was failing my class. I glanced at his report card and he was failing EVERY class. They couldn't understand why he was failing. I brought his grades up on my computer and showed them he was failing his tests and not completing his work. Their response was he wouldn't do his work at home nor would he study. They were pretty frustrated because they couldn't "make" him do his work. What's up with that?

We have created a situation where kids have no repercussions for making mistakes and failing. That is a fundamental of life - you mess up you should pay but these kids are not being taught that. Everyday in the classroom I have to make sure I entertain instead of teach. I get so sick and tired of hearing "make it fun".

Anyway I guess I am about ready to hijack this thread to another direction.

Also, CPLZ I didn't mean for my comment on the educated parents and uneducated parents to be an insult to you. Obviously there are always exceptions to the rules and studies.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Also, CPLZ I didn't mean for my comment on the educated parents and uneducated parents to be an insult to you. Obviously there are always exceptions to the rules and studies.

I wasn't insulted in the slightest, this is good dialouge.

I have no problem with drug testing an athlete. I have no problem with signing a contract. My only problem is enforcement.

Way back in grade school, my son was bit by another student. That student was suppose to be suspended from riding the bus for 1 week. The parent stated her kid would just stay home as she couldn't take him. The school backed down, and the child was right back on the bus.

Later that year MY son was throwing pumpkin seeds on the bus. 5 day suspension, and I drove him. Should I have complained? Should I have bucked up and said he just won't come to school and mess with your attendance records?

Fast forward to HS, one kid, who's parents would back the school, take the punishment, even though it meant he lost his senior year of playing, he did just that. While I truely hated it for him and his family, it was an eye opener for my boys. Screw up and baseball is over.

About 7 years later, almost the exact senerio, only this time... well, without baseball he would just drop out of school, he doesn't have the home life, on and on. So he got a 3 game suspension and then started every game after.

I am glad mine were out of HS by that time as I am not sure how we would have handled it or how it would have been explained to my boys. We have talked about it, and just know that law abiding people will have to accept these "differences".

Mine know as do I.... screw up and we are going UNDER the jail!

quote:

by 20dad: the point as i see it is to hold the students representing the school or town to a higher standard

agree, that's the rationale used to impliment the athlete's code of conduct. then logicly, why not include others who are held in "high esteem" in the school also representing the community ...
teachers, administrators, and coaches

bee
i agree 100%. when i was in school a hundred years ago, the state police would come to school and walk through with drug dogs. they looked six foot twelve to us and that alone was scary,then add a few german shepherds. they made an impresion. a few years ago i asked why they don't bring dogs through any more. even if they aren't drug dogs,just to scare more than anything. the teachers didn't want them coming, ok with them coming into the school, but not the parking lot. and nobody has a problem with that?

That's interesting 20dad.. my high school they brought the dogs in 3,4 times a year walking the halls. It shut down classes basically because they would take 25-30 minutes at least and usually they would come in right at the end of a period so the students couldn't go to the next class. I remember being in a Spanish class one morning when we were told we couldn't go anywhere. Well, this classroom had two doors and we watched as they brought the dogs thru that hallway. The best part was when one of the dogs went absolutely nuts next to one of the lockers!

I would guess that they run those dogs through the parking lot from time to time as well. Being school property all of those vehicles are legal game to be searched.

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I see nothing wrong with drug testing.

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

Same goes for all of the other "schools punishing for outside of school conduct" situations.

Don't put yourself in the situation to be in trouble and you WON'T be in trouble.

As long as the ones that write the policy have to abide by the same rules, I have no problem with it. On the other hand.....don't we have LAWS that cover these kids when they are not in school???

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I see nothing wrong with drug testing.

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

Same goes for all of the other "schools punishing for outside of school conduct" situations.

Don't put yourself in the situation to be in trouble and you WON'T be in trouble.

As long as the ones that write the policy have to abide by the same rules, I have no problem with it. On the other hand.....don't we have LAWS that cover these kids when they are not in school???

Last I checked most of your administrators are going to be over the age of 21. I didn't realize it was illegal for them to drink or smoke. If we're talking illegal drugs, then I agree with you. But I'm reading this thread as if you guys are expecting high school teachers to stop drinking as well just because those same teachers and coaches expect their athletes to not drink.

We had a situation come up here a few years ago. A teacher was somewhere with alcohol and saw a student-athlete drinking. A parent had the nerve to ask what the teacher was doing there!! The administrator had a simple answer: "(S)He is allowed to drink!"

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I see nothing wrong with drug testing.

If you are doing nothing wrong, then what's the big deal?

Same goes for all of the other "schools punishing for outside of school conduct" situations.

Don't put yourself in the situation to be in trouble and you WON'T be in trouble.

As long as the ones that write the policy have to abide by the same rules, I have no problem with it. On the other hand.....don't we have LAWS that cover these kids when they are not in school???

Last I checked most of your administrators are going to be over the age of 21. I didn't realize it was illegal for them to drink or smoke. If we're talking illegal drugs, then I agree with you. But I'm reading this thread as if you guys are expecting high school teachers to stop drinking as well just because those same teachers and coaches expect their athletes to not drink.

We had a situation come up here a few years ago. A teacher was somewhere with alcohol and saw a student-athlete drinking. A parent had the nerve to ask what the teacher was doing there!! The administrator had a simple answer: "(S)He is allowed to drink!"

Drink? Yes! Drunk? No! They are still "representing" their schools and profession. As far as smoking goes, in our school system it is against the rules to smoke anywhere on school property, but many of the schools have built seperate areas for TEACHERS and ADMINISTRATORS to smoke! What message are we sending to our kids???

when i was in school, the students had a smoking area. i'm not sure what kind of message that sent. but i'd trade my kid's drug addiction for a cigarette habit......... now that just sounds absurd. but i would.


i guess if you haven't been bit by the dog, your not afraid of it.