D1/D3 Comparison, where's D2?

I've always wondered why it's not discussed as much as well. My son played 4 years of D2 baseball, but on the east coast. In my opinion, there is some VERY good baseball in D2. My son's team has played some nationally ranked JUCO and NAIA teams and beaten them pretty handily. I've seen some highly ranked D3 teams play and, personally, I don't think they hold a candle to a lot of the D2 teams I've seen. 

I don't know why they are not talked about more as an option, but there is definitely some very good baseball being played at the D2 level. 

DI has baseball scholarships

DII and some NAIA have baseball scholarships

Many Jucos have baseball scholarships

DIII has no baseball scholarships

The better teams in one division can beat the lower teams in a higher division.  Baseball scholarships don't always equal the best situation for everyone.  But, colleges that have baseball money try to spend it on the best baseball talent they can get.

The other thing to consider... Some schools are much easier to get into.  Often these colleges can build power programs at any level because they have money to offer and less stringent academic requirements.

Regarding DI, DII, DIII maybe the easiest way to look at the level of baseball is like this... The best of DI is better than than best of DII.  The average DI is better than the average DII.  The lowest of DI is better than the lowest of DII.  That same thing holds true when comparing DII to DIII.

This topic is of great interest.  I never knew much about D2 programs, but learning from some of the folks here and people that I  know.

Many D2 programs are private institutions and expensive. Only 9 scholarships to divide up. I am assuming that scholaships come from endowments.  Here in florida bright futures helps pay some of the costs for tuition. Not sure about D2 scholarships.

Since D1 programs do not allow transfer to transfer many rosters are made up of former D1 players and Juco transfers.  That could be why there seems to be less discussion here, often there are not many true freshman or sophmores on D2 rosters.  Less recruiting is done at the high school level.

D1 programs pick up the better pitching prospects.  Many rostered D1 rostered players who are bullpen guys could be D2 starters but chose the D1 option for the obvious.  Here in Florida I understand D2s are hitters leagues as double headers on the weekend are really tough on pitching.  

So taking this into consideration, it could be why there is less interest, I really dont know and I too know nothing about west coast D2.

So, I think it is an excellent question.  I'm as guilty as anyone, but I think it mostly has to do with personal experience.  My oldest son had (academic) interest in only one D2 school (Colorado School of Mines) but we never got out there to visit.  PGStaff has answered alot of your question, but I can't help to wonder why more D2 schools aren't at the PG national tournaments or other national venues.   Either we didn't see them, they weren't there or they decided my son did not fit their profile...so that begs the question if they weren't there, why weren't they there.   My youngest son looked at a "local" D2 in Virginia (there are only two of them) but he was doing all the looking.   They were not actively recruiting.  My impression was they were waiting to see who was accepted before reaching out which is probably not representative of the entire D2 as I know from reading HSBBWeb there are some outstanding D2s.   I have a lot of questions, and hopefully I'll learn along with you as D2's have kind of been a mystery to me.

In doing some number crunching, I'm seeing 273 D2 programs on NCAA D2 baseball website.  There are roughly 300 D1 programs, 360 or so D3 programs, and 178 NAIA programs.  If anything it should be NAIA that could be asking the question why it isn't mentioned as much.  So, of those roughly 274 about 125 of them are West coast with roughly 150 in the East and Southest.  I thought there may have been a East or Southeast bias but I don't see that either.   I'm coming up with more questions than you originally asked, so I apologize for going down this rabbit hole.  Again, I'm trying to learn along with you.  Hopefully, we'll get some D2 experts to chime in.

We have a couple of users with sons at the same California DII. Until they give their much more informed takes, I'll say this: with a few exceptions, CA DII schools are public schools in the Cal State system.   Again with exceptions, those tend to be commuter schools that are a notch below schools in the U.C. system.  The baseball rosters at these schools are usually dominated by players moving up from Juco or down from DI. For HS players it can be a tough nut to crack. The schools do very limited HS recruiting, and the competition for roster spots is older and more experienced.

JCG posted:

We have a couple of users with sons at the same California DII. Until they give their much more informed takes, I'll say this: with a few exceptions, CA DII schools are public schools in the Cal State system.   Again with exceptions, those tend to be commuter schools that are a notch below schools in the U.C. system.  The baseball rosters at these schools are usually dominated by players moving up from Juco or down from DI. For HS players it can be a tough nut to crack. The schools do very limited HS recruiting, and the competition for roster spots is older and more experienced.

I think that is probably how it is most places.  

I think that variation between states make D2 programs confusing. Fenwaysouth mentioned that VA only has two D2 programs. However, they have numerous D3 programs. Drive south to SC and you won't find D3's but will find D2 options. One of the university sytems in PA is made up of D2 programs. 

In NC, you'll find all levels. Most D2's in NC are private, but one is a state school. 

And for the NC person who isn't knowledgeable about the different classifications, has never visited the different campuses, here is how they think.... Duke, North Carolina and the ACC are the big schools, Schools like East Carolina and App State represent a notch level down. And then everything else is the "same". So, in this person's mind, a D1 mid-major in the Big South such as Gardner-Webb, Radford, or Campbell is the same athletic classification as a D2 such as Belmont-Abbey, Lenoir-Rhyne, Catawba College, or Mt. Olive.

When App State had a run of 3 IAA football championships, I heard many people say they had won the D2 title. In my opinion, the whole IAA sub classification for football (now FCS) created some confusion as to the differences between D1 and D2.

Yes, there are generally quite a few JUCO transfers and some D1 drop downs on D2 teams.  Does this make for a competitive environment?  Yes it does...  But is the D1 environment competitive?  You better believe it.  How about what we always talk about here with D3s?  D3s are historically known for over recruiting and bringing in 40 or more players in the fall.  The fact of the matter is that all college baseball is extremely competitive.

I saw D2 coaches at most, if not all of the WWBA events here in Georgia.  They are around.  I will agree that the D2 scene is dominated by hitting.  There are a TON of very good hitters in D2 and generally, the pitching is not as deep as D1 pitching staffs.  There are some very good pitchers in D2, but the depth of the staffs is not as deep as D1.  Most kids want to play for a D1 school, and as TPM pointed out, many guys would rather take their chances out of the bullpen in D1 than start for a D2 team.  But you do see a number of D1 drop downs on the mound as well.

Bottom line, I think it is a viable alternative.  The baseball is very competitive.  Here in Georgia, the D2 schools are almost all public and quite reasonably priced.  Kind of the opposite of how they are in Florida.

Thank you, learning a lot here.

This is a great thread, there are only four DII Baseball programs in Illinois, one in Wisconsin (of course Wisconsin only has one D1 school that plays Baseball), and seven DII Baseball programs in Minnesota.

Just as a reminder of a couple recent big "upsets" involving D2 baseball. Around 3 years ago (maybe 4), South Carolina did a favor for Francis Marion University and played them in their opening game in their new stadium. Francis Marion beat them. Last year (2015 season), Tampa beat the Phillies during the Phillies spring training.   Tampa won the D2 CWS that year. This year, Nova Southeastern played the Phillies pretty competitively and went on to win the CWS. 

bballman posted:

Just as a reminder of a couple recent big "upsets" involving D2 baseball. Around 3 years ago (maybe 4), South Carolina did a favor for Francis Marion University and played them in their opening game in their new stadium. Francis Marion beat them. Last year (2015 season), Tampa beat the Phillies during the Phillies spring training.   Tampa won the D2 CWS that year. This year, Nova Southeastern played the Phillies pretty competitively and went on to win the CWS. 

The teams usually play their milb players,  but its fun to beat professionals for sure.

Looking forward to a Florida Southern vs Tigers exhibition game!

3and2Fastball posted:

This is a great thread, there are only four DII Baseball programs in Illinois, one in Wisconsin (of course Wisconsin only has one D1 school that plays Baseball), and seven DII Baseball programs in Minnesota.

3and2 what am I missing?  I wasn't aware of any d2's up here.  And exactly when are you going to break down, PM me, and let me know where you are from!  As in organization.  

Google says:

Division II[edit]

2020 is in wisconsin.

Wisconsin-Parkside is a DII school

http://www.parksiderangers.com...x?path=baseball&

I think I'm one of the users JCG referred to with a son at a California D2.  I would agree, generally, with everything stated here.  Because I also follow many of my previous HS players and they are at various levels, I feel quite familiar with the overall environment, at least here on the west coast. 

The big factors that influence D2 here (some already stated).....

start with a very large pool of players in California

Conferences - the big D2 conference is comprised of state shools and one UC, no privates - varied but generally not considered high academics, with UCSD and Cal Poly Pomona being on the higher end academically.  So, acceptance is generally not a huge challenge.

California JC system - This is a biggy not mentioned yet - the JC system in California is huge, very affordable, very competitive and makes for a great pipeline into the California D2's and other schools of all levels across the country (although less so with D3's which tend to be more high academic privates who bring students on as freshmen).  So, the California D2's find the JC pipeline to be a great resource for plug-and-play battle tested players.  Most rosters are loaded with California JC transfers.  This makes it tougher as an incoming freshman considering chances of ever earning PT.  If you stand out beyond the best players coming out of the JC system, you probably would be getting D1 interest to begin with.

D1 drop-downs - Many California players do go the D1 route, in-state or elsewhere, then come home as a D1 drop-down when things don't work out as planned. 

The California State school tuition structure, combined with limited athletic $, discourages out-of-state candidates.

On the other hand, there are plenty of players from colder climates that would die to play in California and have parents willing to foot the bill.

So, as a result of the large pool of HS and JC players along with willing D1 drops, the CCAA is quite competitive top to bottom.  Any series can go any way.  Watching across all levels, PG's assessment, of course, is a good one.  Pretty simple.  Top D1 better than Top D2 better than Top D3, etc.  Best of the lower level can beat worst of the higher level. 

NAIA -  Most in this region are small private Christian schools and there are not all that many.  There are a few good teams (Westmont) but several teams are really not good.  The poor conference competition hurts the better teams come post-season.  The best NAIA's did compete with bottom D2's but the few meetings were mid-week non-conference so not sure those head-to-heads held much merit.  Just evaluating talent, the good NAIA school wasn't quite there and definitely had less quality depth. 

D3 - In this region is similar to what I described with NAIA but less bad teams.  Mostly small private Christian schools.  The better teams (Cal Lutheran) would benefit from better competition.

The D2 in this region is certainly better top-to-bottom than D3 or NAIA but, again, the top lower level teams can compete with the middle D2's.

Having seen both Westmont (NAIA) and Cal Lu (D3), there is not significant difference between the two.  Having watched Cal Poly and other D1's, the D2's here don't have the depth of pitching or position bench depth and you'll get a few players starting at D2 who don't quite have D1 bodies

 PS - proud to say our little HS currently has players contributing at schools across all of these levels of play, including the very good programs mentioned.

There's the PSAC in PA. West Chester won the national championship about five years ago. Millersville played in the championship game this year. In the northeast there is the Northeast 10 running from NH to NY. Franklin Pierce has been to the D2 World Series five times in the past ten seasons. Southern NH has made the NCAA tournament six times in eight years since the current coach took over. 

The regional D2 schools for the most part weren't an academic fit for my kids. Plus they didn't want to play up to their knees in snow. My daughter and I were in the BC parking lot in February after a softball visit. The wind was blowing. She stared at me and said, "What were you thinking when you moved us from southern CA? Does this look like UCSB?" I never bothered to learn much about D2s or had a lot of interest in D2 threads.

 NCAA D2 baseball programs

http://web1.ncaa.org/onlineDir...sion=2&sport=MBA 

Breakdown of baseball programs by classification. Scroll down. There's a lot of information.

http://www.scholarshipstats.com/baseball.html

TPM posted:

2020 is in wisconsin.

My bad.

Division II[edit]

One thing I really like about the Great Lakes Valley Conference is that they play their conference Tournament at Grand Park in Indiana, a facility I'm a big fan of.  A few of the GLVC teams (Indianapolis, Southern Indiana, & Missouri S&T in particular) can compete very well against lesser to middling D1 teams.   (Indianapolis beat Notre Dame this year in their season opener, before losing the next 2 games to the Fighting Irish in a 3 game series).

Not a lot of the GLVC schools are high ranking academically, which can make for a good option for the "academically challenged" ballplayer.

http://www.glvcsports.com/inde...x?path=baseball&

Almost forgot.  In CA there is one other D2 conference besides the one Cabbage talked about that the OP might be interested in checking out. It's called the Pacwest Conference and it's mostly made up of mostly CA schools that are private and/or Christian.  The level of play is not as high, but it's also not dominated by Juco players and D1 dropdowns.

http://www.thepacwest.com/inde...x?path=baseball&

Wayne State has had some pretty good success under Coach Ryan Kelley.   I've heard good things about Coach Kelley.  Does a lot with community outreach, develops players as both students and athletes, team plays the game the right way.  2 of his former players are currently playing MiLB ball, and a pitcher he helped develop (Anthony Bass) pitched 5 years in MLB

http://www.wsuathletics.com/co...96&path=baseball

cabbagedad posted:

I think I'm one of the users JCG referred to with a son at a California D2.  I would agree, generally, with everything stated here.  Because I also follow many of my previous HS players and they are at various levels, I feel quite familiar with the overall environment, at least here on the west coast. 

The big factors that influence D2 here (some already stated).....

start with a very large pool of players in California

Conferences - the big D2 conference is comprised of state shools and one UC, no privates - varied but generally not considered high academics, with UCSD and Cal Poly Pomona being on the higher end academically.  So, acceptance is generally not a huge challenge.

California JC system - This is a biggy not mentioned yet - the JC system in California is huge, very affordable, very competitive and makes for a great pipeline into the California D2's and other schools of all levels across the country (although less so with D3's which tend to be more high academic privates who bring students on as freshmen).  So, the California D2's find the JC pipeline to be a great resource for plug-and-play battle tested players.  Most rosters are loaded with California JC transfers.  This makes it tougher as an incoming freshman considering chances of ever earning PT.  If you stand out beyond the best players coming out of the JC system, you probably would be getting D1 interest to begin with.

D1 drop-downs - Many California players do go the D1 route, in-state or elsewhere, then come home as a D1 drop-down when things don't work out as planned. 

The California State school tuition structure, combined with limited athletic $, discourages out-of-state candidates.

On the other hand, there are plenty of players from colder climates that would die to play in California and have parents willing to foot the bill.

 

So, as a result of the large pool of HS and JC players along with willing D1 drops, the CCAA is quite competitive top to bottom.  Any series can go any way.  Watching across all levels, PG's assessment, of course, is a good one.  Pretty simple.  Top D1 better than Top D2 better than Top D3, etc.  Best of the lower level can beat worst of the higher level. 

NAIA -  Most in this region are small private Christian schools and there are not all that many.  There are a few good teams (Westmont) but several teams are really not good.  The poor conference competition hurts the better teams come post-season.  The best NAIA's did compete with bottom D2's but the few meetings were mid-week non-conference so not sure those head-to-heads held much merit.  Just evaluating talent, the good NAIA school wasn't quite there and definitely had less quality depth. 

D3 - In this region is similar to what I described with NAIA but less bad teams.  Mostly small private Christian schools.  The better teams (Cal Lutheran) would benefit from better competition.

The D2 in this region is certainly better top-to-bottom than D3 or NAIA but, again, the top lower level teams can compete with the middle D2's.

Having seen both Westmont (NAIA) and Cal Lu (D3), there is not significant difference.  Having watched Cal Poly and other D1's, the D2's here don't have the depth of pitching or position bench depth and you'll get a few players starting at D2 who don't quite have D1 bodies

 PS - proud to say our little HS currently has players contributing at schools across all of these levels of play, including the very good programs mentioned.

 

The main thing about California to keep in mind is that there are a TON of players vying for VERY FEW roster spots in 4 year programs.   There are 24 D1 programs, 19 D2 programs,  9 D3 programs, and 12 NAIA.  But there are 89 JC program.  

Now way that there is room in the 4 year programs in the state to absorb all or even most of the talented players who both want to continue playing and are good enough to continue playing in college. 

With all the players who of necessity go the JC route, that means there is lots of more mature talent ready for the picking for schools that are willing to take on transfers.   Few D3's rely much on JC transfers  (Cal Lu is the exception) and with D1's it seems to vary a bit with the selectivity of the school,  but the D2's seem mostly all in on JC transfers. 

In Ohio, Naia dominated for years, there were always planty of D1 and D3 options but we only had one D2. The rest were NAIA. In the last decade ir so we have seen most of those scholls migrate to D2. 90% of those schools joined the GLIAC. Some the Mountain East.

We just saw another shift. The Gliac is very tough. Grande Valley statebusually dominates, especially in football. Bus also in basbeall. Most of the former NAIA schools are having a tough time competing. In fact Malone came very close to recallsifying to D3. But there was not a good fit for them. The OAC is full, and the do not fit the academic profile of the NCAC. Same for the PAC. Thebheatland would have been a good fit but there would've been to much travel. At that point they stayed D2 and moved to the Mountain East. 

Most of the D2 schools mission is not serving the high academic. Most of them are smaller schools. Some bigger than the d3s some smaller. Many are not fully funded. My sons D3 would regularly schedule at least one game with the local D2's and compete well. Neither team would use their regular starting staff. My son would usually be left at home for these games. 

D2 is a viable option out of HS depnding on the school. Some targeted HS players while others were full of JUCO and D1 transfers 

We have 8 NAIA teams left. Many have new athletic programs and plan to eventually go D2. Fewer D3. These are mostly small schools serving very specific populations. There is one State school. But the rest are privates.

Regarding DII coaches attending WWBA or BCS tournaments.  We see quite a few DII coaches.  Kind of guessing, but I would say way more than half of the coaches are DI. Most of the rest are DII, NAIA, and Juco.  Only maybe a dozen or so DIII coaches.  I've often thought DIII's are really missing the boat.  There are too many good players, there isn't enough room for them all at DI or DII programs.  A DIII recruiter could build a powerful program working tournaments like the one going on right now in Georgia.  There are so many outstanding players that just fall a bit short of what DI recruiters are looking for.

BTW, talked to the new coach at Purdue yesterday at the 17u WWBA.  Purdue is in a unique situation for a DI school.  They need players immediately, many roster spots available.  So real good players that have somehow slipped through the cracks, might think about contacting Purdue.  Big10 baseball is very competitive these days.

We talk about engineering and baseball all the time. I have always been surprised that Purdue is not mentioned more. I have known walk ons, and they all received a far shot, they also majored in Egineering. 

My father graduated from Purdue with an Egineering degree. He was not an athlete. But an Egineering degree from Purdue, carried a lot of weight when trying to get a job, from the likes of NCR, and Battelle. You could do worse than Purdue.

BLD,

I think the world of Purdue and Big 10 baseball.  Certainly a Power Conference that is improving year over year.  The addition of Maryland has helped add some baseball juice to the Big 10.  Michigan, Ohio State and Indiana have all had recent baseball successes as well.

I also think the world of engineers who can find a niche to play college baseball.  Given the Power Conference status of the Big 10 and Purdue I think those who want to pursue BOTH need to understand more about what that requires with the competitive (huge) time commitment, number of games, practices, travel and summer baseball commitment.  My oldest son did consider Purdue (excellent engineering program) but we determined there were paths better suited for him.   JMO.

PGStaff posted:

Regarding DII coaches attending WWBA or BCS tournaments.  We see quite a few DII coaches.  Kind of guessing, but I would say way more than half of the coaches are DI. Most of the rest are DII, NAIA, and Juco.  Only maybe a dozen or so DIII coaches.  I've often thought DIII's are really missing the boat.  There are too many good players, there isn't enough room for them all at DI or DII programs.  A DIII recruiter could build a powerful program working tournaments like the one going on right now in Georgia.  There are so many outstanding players that just fall a bit short of what DI recruiters are looking for.

BTW, talked to the new coach at Purdue yesterday at the 17u WWBA.  Purdue is in a unique situation for a DI school.  They need players immediately, many roster spots available.  So real good players that have somehow slipped through the cracks, might think about contacting Purdue.  Big10 baseball is very competitive these days.

I think a lot has to do with economics. D2 and D3 just dont have it in their budgets for travel. I am assuming that most who attend certain events are close by.

As far as D3, since most admissions are based on GPA and test scores, that leaves a lot of players not eligible.

A lot of it depends on the population a D3 serves. D3 runs the Gamut, some are difficult to get into, while others are easy. Many D3s are regional and they serve populations close to home. Many D3 rosters mirror the student population. So even if they have the budget it still might be cost effective to go to such a showcase or tournament. 

For instance the D3 schools in Wisconsin are state schools. And there rosters reflect this. Why go all the way to Georgia to see Wisconsin athletes that you can see in your own back yard. 

And the higher academic are probably at Head first and Stanford. 

The PG events would probably be a good place to identify players, but I am not sure many of them qould be ready to consider D3's yet.

3and2Fastball posted:

Wisconsin-Parkside is a DII school

http://www.parksiderangers.com...x?path=baseball&

Learn something new everyday .  Did not know that

I have recently thought it would be a good idea to have the player's GPA, test scores, etc. available for coaches.  Why don't PG and PBR do this?  It could be in a "locked" section of the site, where only coaches could see it.  It might help the kid who is a good player yet maybe not a powerhouse, but that powerhouse kid may not have the GPA or SAT to get into their college AND survive college course work.  Wouldn't this save the coach a lot of time?  If I were a coach I would want to see all of this info BEFORE I ever stepped foot on a field to watch a player. 

"I have recently thought it would be a good idea to have the player's GPA, test scores, etc. available for coaches.  Why don't PG and PBR do this?" 

PG has it right up front on the player's page.  The player has to enter the GPA/SAT/ACT scores, and of course a coach would want to verify them, but if a player has strong academic credentials, they would be crazy not to post them on their page.

What I don't know is if coaches accessing the PG site are able to sort by those academic credentials.  But if they have identified a particular player they are interested in, they should be able to quickly look it up on the PG site.  And if the player is a 2017 grad and has not entered the academic data or test scores, there is a pretty good chance they do not want them known for a reason.

RKBH - I just sent you a PM.