D1 Talent playing D3 because of a Coaching Fit?

If his goal is to be drafted and has multiple D1 offers he shouldn't be playing D3. The exception would be if this is one of the premiere D3 programs with solid connections to the right collegiate summer ball programs.

93+ is 93+ regardless of where it's thrown. Most D3 draftees are pitchers. If a kid is a position player his college coach better get him in the right collegiate summer program where he can prove himself against top pitching talent. 

He needs to get out of his comfort zone with the coaching given it's D3 versus D1. Pick the D1 program that showed him the most love if it's also an academic, social and cultural fit. 

Agree with RJM.     Very unusual.   Extremely  Tough to get a pro shot out of D III as a position player.    Also. Be careful choosing. A school because you like the hitting coach, most assistant coaches want to be head coaches and that means climbing the ladder by moving on when a better opportunity presents itself.   

I concur w/ RJM , D3 ball isn't a good place for a hitter interested in the draft. Even if his stats are great at that level, the pitching isn't like D1 pitching and scouts don't put a lot of stock in D3 hitting stats.

And yes, a mound is a mound , 60ft 6 inch, and 93+ is the same on a D3 mound or a D1 mound . So, D3 Pitchers still get looks.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of D3 ball. It's just not the right choice IMO for a hitter looking to play pro ball

Do NOT go to a college for the coaching staff.   (I bet the player can still get lessons from this hitting coach in the off season).  If he loves the school without baseball, ok.  Remember, a player can get hurt at any time.

Check out various sites so see exactly how many 2Bs were drafted last year, and where they were drafted from.  (I'll help you.....not many.  Check MLB Draft Tracker for 2016 or thebaseballcube.com).

(My son plays 2B at a D1 where the head coach left right after son signed the NLI November his senior year.  He was a SS in HS, like most 2Bs in college).

There are a few reasons to pick a D3 school over a D1 school but the hitting coach or any coach is not one of those reasons IMHO.  Hitting coaches are looking for the next opportunity to move up the coaching ladder and most will pack up and leave for that opportunity at the drop of a baseball cap.   College baseball coaches move around a lot at all levels.   I think your son's goal is a fairly common one if you hang out at HSBBWeb for any length of time and I hope he makes it to MILB or MLB, however I  think he needs to re-think his reasons and path to get to professional baseball.   

keewart is giving you a great example and experience.  There is little doubt in my mind keewart's son will be drafted high, and it is because of his skill, hard work, exposure, performance, competition with like skilled players,, summer opportunities, and D1 investment in coaching and facilities. It would have been very difficult to match that at the D3 level.

Good luck!

3and2Fastball posted:

My nephew is being recruited by several D1 schools but is very seriously considering going to a D3 school because he feels like he has a lot of faith in the coaching staff.  In particular he loves the hitting coach, who he has taken a bunch of lessons from and he feels as though his longterm (and long shot) shot at MiLB is best served by working day in and day out with this coaching staff and especially the hitting coach.  He also likes the campus, the curriculum and the general vibe of the school.  But to be honest his main reason for the choice is Baseball.  If he can't make it as a pro he wants to coach.

It isn't even so much about playing time.  His particular position, 2B is held by an All-Conference Junior this year who will almost for sure be back for his Senior year, so my nephew will likely see very little playing time before his Soph year at the earliest.

How unusual is this?  He is considered a legit D1 talent.  His high school coach thinks he is crazy to pass on attending a D1.  I think it makes sense for the kid to go where he feels comfortable.  

Being an uneducated outsider looking in I would make these points to my nephew:

1. The assistant coaching staff tends to move, so not a good reason to go.

2. D1's, even without scholarship money, tend to be cheaper than D3's.

3. Seeing D1 pitching vs. seeing D3 pitching...come on, no contest. Some could argue that as a position player attending 90+% of D3's could kill the MiLB dream.

4. If coaching is his long term goal learning from a D1 coach would look better on his resume.

5. He may not play much at the D1 until Sophomore year but he doesn't know  for SURE he will be starting on the D3 team.....do they even have a roster limit?

There are a few sentences of advice that I have REALLY taken to heart in this recruiting process.  The one that comes to mind now is "You have to love to TRAIN to play baseball, because if you only love PLAYING baseball you are going to be in for a huge disappointment as you move on in your baseball career. "

I am a huge proponent of D3. However, I agree with the others. Unless, this D3 schools is a top contender every year and has a history of getting players in the best summer programs, where they will see D1 pitching, then Go with one of the D1's. But some of the same caveats apply. Are the D1's offering BB money? Do they get their players in good summer leagues? What is the history of getting 2b to the Milb? 

Which is a better fit academically? Culturally? Financially? Many say that D3 are more expensive. D3's run the gamut, In PA for example, many of the regional campuses are D3. In Wisconsin ,the  WIAC is made up of mostly, if not all large state schools. I know several not so good student, that ended up at very affordable schools, in D3. 

3and2Fastball posted:

... In particular he loves the hitting coach...

t isn't even so much about playing time.  His particular position, 2B is held by an All-Conference Junior this year who will almost for sure be back for his Senior year, so my nephew will likely see very little playing time before his Soph year at the earliest. 

I agree with the opinions above, and will add...

Very few college players love their coach... during their playing days. There are some good posts on here about coaches telling recruits that they aren't going to like them once they get to school. That relationship is completely different from a paid hitting coach.

Are you saying that he's not expecting to start as a freshman for the D3???  Even if this school is a great fit for him, that would concern me. If he's legit D1 talent, and he's thinking about the draft, there are very few D3 teams that are so stacked with talent that they couldn't find room for a high level freshman in their lineup.

D3's are always going to try to recruit D1 talent, it's all about recruiting the best talent possible.  My read is that the relationship with the D3 hitting instructor is clouding the players decision making process.  Seek out another top hitting instructor, it will be helpful to get some objectivity and hopefully better feedback on skill set. He has D1 offers, clearly some see talent.  

If the player has the MLB dream he has to position himself correctly.  RJM first mentioned it above.  He needs to see advanced hitting and have a college coach who can open doors to the best summer league teams.   

Given your discussion about the junior second baseman at the D3, I assume your nephew is a senior.

There isn't a lot of D1 recruiting of 2017 position players going on right now. Those deals were mostly sealed last fall. Are you sure the D1 options are still viable this late in the game?

It could be that he's choosing between D1 walk-on roles and a D3 where he has a relationship.

He may rationally see the D3, not so much as his best option to go pro, but his best option to play. 

And don't get too wrapped up in the "D1 talent" categorization. A whole lot of D3 players had realistic D1 expectations at one time. 

Most points well covered... 

Something doesn't add up to me.  If he is a true D1 prospect, I question that he would "likely see very little playing time before soph year at the earliest" at a D3.  If true D1 talent, why would he not compete for a start vs the D3 all-conference 2b?  If true D1 talent, seems he would surely have the arm to play ss, 3b or OF at the D3 level if 2b is already their position of strength.  What tools make him a D1 guy?  When you say he is being recruited D1, are we talking offers or just pursuit at this stage? Are we talking decent D1 programs or lower tier?  If we're talking lower tier D1's and the D3 is a powerhouse, there may not be as much difference as most of us are thinking.  Just trying to understand in a bit more depth.

Also, he has taken several lessons from this hitting coach.  He doesn't have to play for him to continue getting his help.  They know each other now and have a rapport.  Modern technology is amazing.  The player could take some video in the cage or pass on some game footage and they can talk through observations, adjustments, etc.

I certainly agree with you that there is some logic to going where you feel most comfortable.  But if he has true pro aspirations, I don't think "comfortable" is going to be part of the equation for a while.  Also, if his coaching aspirations are D1, he will have a much stronger resume having played D1 and been involved in a decent D1 program.  That, in itself, is certainly not a reason to play D1 but...

The way I am reading this is somewhat different, maybe closer to Cabbage...so in my uneducated opinion based on how I read your comments - here you go.

- he is a 2017 grad and if he hasn't signed yet he is at best a 3rd option for whatever schools he is looking at

- unless he is in a top 50 type school pro ball is going to be a long shot and ultimately the MBL which has to be the goal if you are going to waste the time in the minors is a shot at the moon

- the D3 campus, vibe and education fit his desires

- the D3 will most likely be thrilled to have him

- if he wants to coach it can be done from anywhere. hopefully he will be a great recruiter because that is going to be his key to advancement.

- he is going to be a huge longshot to play pro ball regardless of where he goes to college

so based on the above observations I find it hard to recommend he shouldn't be willing to highly consider said D3.

DI talent is OK with not playing until sophomore year at a DIII?

The few DI talents I have seen that go DIII, go in order to play right away.  Or they go DIII for reasons other than baseball.  There are freshmen that play right away at DI colleges, let alone DIII colleges.  I would ask that hitting coach if he thinks you would be one of the DIIIs best hitters as a freshman. If he says yes, why wouldn't he be in the lineup?

He should research the draft and find out how many 2B get drafted and how many DIII players get drafted.  Then how many DIII 2B get drafted. I will say there is something to be said about going where you feel most comfortable.  But sooner or later in baseball you will face discomfort.  Especially if you have some high goals.

Thanks so much for all the replies.  I will convey this advice to my nephew.

He has been somewhat of a late bloomer.  He could always hit & field but he went from being a 5'4" freshman who ran a 7.8 60 and couldn't make any of the better travel teams to 3 years later he is 6'2" and ran a 6.8 60 .... He was late to the recruiting process, late to develop, late to making Varsity and late to grow.

Great points made about the D1's probably being walk-on offers at this point in the process.  Also that he could just continue getting hitting lessons from the coach in the offseason.  The D3 is a very competitive school that has contended for the D3 National Championship in multiple seasons in the last few decades.

I'm not as close to my nephew as I would be, obviously, with my own son.  So there are clearly aspects of all this that I'm not aware of.  It could be that he is just being humble about probably not starting right away at the D3.

3and2Fastball posted:

 

Great points made about the D1's probably being walk-on offers at this point in the process.  

And something to consider, There will be D1 scholarship money for 2017's opening up after the draft.  If your nephew is being courted by solid D1's who stand to lose a player or two to the upcoming draft, then he needs to be having discussions with those D1 coaches about what offers they're making contingent on money becoming available this year.

You have some good advice for your nephew.  I agree with some others and IMO he is clearly not "solid D1 material" particularly if he is a Sr without multiple D1 offers that include significant BB $$. He would also be getting multiple questionnaires from MLB clubs if he was in this category. He might be able to play at that level but I don't think I would categorize him as that type of player based on what I read. 

Regardless of where he falls in terms of skills.

My advice would be for him to go where he is comfortable and will have a positive college and baseball experience, and I disagree with some of the others; yes go where he likes the coaches for crying out loud. I say this because my son played for arguable the top D3 program in the country for the past 6 years and last years CWS champion. He loved the coaching and still is in contact with many of them.  There are also pitchers and position players routinely drafted out of this program - so a top D3 program will have a following of professional scouts. Something others have not pointed out, but it is a heck of a lot more fun to play for a winning program at the D3 level, vs a loosing program at the D1 level IMO. My son went to four straight regionals, one CWS and played in every league championship series and those types of games are really special. Again this is just my perspective. 

It IS more difficult to get drafted out of a D3 as a position player so if he goes this route and wants to be considered for the draft it is mandatory for him to play summer college ball at a high level. I won't go into the leagues he will need to play in as this is another subject that has been covered here. 

Anyway just my 2 cents. Good luck to your nephew! 

If your nephew is a senior and not getting any money from the D1's he's a "just in case" recruit. Just in case the two top recruits projected for his position don't work out we have this third guy. But then there's another recruiting class the following year. A "just in case" recruit is more likely to be off the roster than starting by junior year. 

I mentioned that.  "Are any of the D1's offering partial athletic scholarships?"  

He said no, but that a few are saying there is some academic scholarship money in place.  

Last summer he was a late sub on a showcase team.  Played OK but ran a 7.2 60 --- he says he had a minor injury that he didn't tell anyone about that slowed him down.  6 months later he ran a 6.8 60 at a winter showcase and hit well.  He says that the D1 coaches are telling him that they see him as a true late bloomer who could help them.   He senses he isn't a high priority for them though, and he's concerned about getting with hitting coaches who might want to change his swing and try to get him to swing down to contact.  The hitting coach he loves at the D3 teaches a pro style approach similar to Bobby Tewksbary.

3and2Fastball posted:

I mentioned that.  "Are any of the D1's offering partial athletic scholarships?"  

He said no, but that a few are saying there is some academic scholarship money in place.  

Last summer he was a late sub on a showcase team.  Played OK but ran a 7.2 60 --- he says he had a minor injury that he didn't tell anyone about that slowed him down.  6 months later he ran a 6.8 60 at a winter showcase and hit well.  He says that the D1 coaches are telling him that they see him as a true late bloomer who could help them.   He senses he isn't a high priority for them though, and he's concerned about getting with hitting coaches who might want to change his swing and try to get him to swing down to contact.  The hitting coach he loves at the D3 teaches a pro style approach similar to Bobby Tewksbary.

Cool, with that new info, it sounds more like a kid who could potentially play D1 at some point with continued development but doesn't stand out to the extent he has been offered any D1 athletic $ so, there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at a strong D3 that he likes.

Next question... what is it that has the HS coach saying he is crazy (considering he hasn't been offered a dime of athletic scholy $)?

cabbagedad posted

 

Next question... what is it that has the HS coach saying he is crazy (considering he hasn't been offered a dime of athletic scholy $)?

My brother in law the cynic thinks that it mostly has to do with the high school coach wanting to pad his and his program's resume.  I don't know about that.  I think the guy is a heckuva coach who has been instrumental in my nephew's development.

if he's an late bloomer that wants to play at the highest level there is always Junior College .  Playing at the highest level is really the goal for any position player that's interested in playing professionally.  D3 will always be there if he wants to transfer from a D1, D2 or JC....  Obviously JC leagues are not the "highest level" but a lot of 4 year programs at the highest level recruit from the JC's looking for late bloomers etc..

Position player's should be looking for "love" at the highest possible level of play.....including summer league.

Are pro aspirations realistic for a second baseman with 6.8 sixty speed and no D1 athletic offers?

If I'm a late bloomer that just went 6.8 and can hit, I may have to take a different route, but you're not stopping me. Further strength & speed training and I'll be a beast.

3and2, if your post had not mentioned Milb aspirations for your nephew, this thread might read in a very different way in terms of going where you are loved (D3).

Our son, as a freshman in HS, was quite similar to your nephew in size and 60 time. As a senior, the size and 60 time were also similar.

Coming out of HS, our son had one D3 coach who loved him.  That D3 coach saw the potential for him to be drafted out of college and was quite open about that potential and the process to get there.

That D3 coach was also very vocal with his D1 coaching friends about our son. During most of our son's HS senior year, D1 coaches found reasons our son would not succeed (mostly his weight and strength).  At the end of April, our son deposited at the D3 which had recruited him so religiously from the prior Fall. About that time, a number of local D1's came to see him and his Legion coach called nearly every D1 in Northern CA telling them they were crazy in overlooking our son (sound familiar.)

This brought the local JC and a number of coaches to his games with offers coming even as late as July and early August (mostly walk-on) with one confirming a scholarship offer would be made at a campus visit (this was about 10 days before school started).

The D3 our son attended was the same one referenced by BOF.  That school is in the most scouted area of the Country. The D3 college coach had our son in front of scouts from their very first Fall scrimmage and they continued to follow him each step of the way (with one indicating he would be drafted as a position player after his junior year-he was not).  Our son was placed in the NECBL with top teams in that league, played well against Team USA during 2 separate Summers and made that leagues All Star team twice. Along the way he had options to transfer to one of the very best D2's (from FLA.) and also transfer to D1 programs including one in the ACC.

After graduating in 4 years, our son was drafted and in his second year he was voted to the MWL All-Star team. After an injury cut his Milb career short, he went on to coach at the D3 before moving back to CA and coaching at the D1 level and being quite successful as the hitting coach at different programs.

More than a few from this site and elsewhere have said our son is an exception in terms of D3 position players being very successful in college and Summer Wood bat leagues and being drafted. 

It certainly is not as easy as it might have been at a top 100 D1 program or the very top D2 in FLA.  It does happen. though. I tend to think you need the following:

1.) a top D3 program and coaching staff;

2) A coaching staff which is linked with and respected by the scouting community and which is tenacious in getting visibility for their players;

3.) Having at least one plus tool (our son's included his arm, athleticism and Consultant's 6th tool)

4.) getting better every single year in terms bat speed, range, etc and strength and explosiveness;

5.) playing against top Summer league competition and succeeding at a high level;

6.) having a ferocious mental attitude and toughness

Good luck to your nephew in his HS senior year of baseball and  working through his choices and options.

There are a handful of D3 guys drafted every year.  

Not many go in the early rounds.  

More pitchers  than position players.

Seems like most of the D3 players who are drafted are drafted as seniors. 

Last year, the coaches at my son's school expected up to three guys to be drafted.  Or so they told my son and me, when we dropped him off at the start of school year last year and met with the coach jsut to say hi.   (He mentioned this to communicate to my son the kind of expectations they had for their players.) 

In the end, none of the three were.  One of the players had  an  outstanding senior season and was named a second team All American, the other two tailed off a bit from their Junior years, even though they had very solid senior years. 

I think in the  history of my son's school 24 players have been drafted. the most recent in 2014 in the 33rd round.  

I would imagine that not all that many D3 programs have a much stronger draft history than that.   I believe, for example, that last years D3 World Series winner, for which Infielddad's son played,   had a player drafted in the 31st round.   He was, I recall reading,  the 8th player to be drafted in that excellent program's history. 

Some number of D3 guys also seem to find their way into the minor leagues as non-drafted free agents. Some from my son's school took that path. 

SluggerDad posted:

There are a handful of D3 guys drafted every year.  

Not many go in the early rounds.  

More pitchers  than position players.

Seems like most of the D3 players who are drafted are drafted as seniors. 

Last year, the coaches at my son's school expected up to three guys to be drafted.  Or so they told my son and me, when we dropped him off at the start of school year last year and met with the coach jsut to say hi.   (He mentioned this to communicate to my son the kind of expectations they had for their players.) 

In the end, none of the three were.  One of the players had  an  outstanding senior season and was named a second team All American, the other two tailed off a bit from their Junior years, even though they had very solid senior years. 

I think in the  history of my son's school 24 players have been drafted. the most recent in 2014 in the 33rd round.  

I would imagine that not all that many D3 programs have a much stronger draft history than that.   I believe, for example, that last years D3 World Series winner, for which Infielddad's son played,   had a player drafted in the 31st round.   He was, I recall reading,  the 8th player to be drafted in that excellent program's history. 

Some number of D3 guys also seem to find their way into the minor leagues as non-drafted free agents. Some from my son's school took that path. 

 

D3 free agent signings tend to happen if/when short season teams need to fill out rosters. 

SluggerDad posted:

There are a handful of D3 guys drafted every year.  

Not many go in the early rounds.  

More pitchers  than position players.

Seems like most of the D3 players who are drafted are drafted as seniors. 

Last year, the coaches at my son's school expected up to three guys to be drafted.  Or so they told my son and me, when we dropped him off at the start of school year last year and met with the coach jsut to say hi.   (He mentioned this to communicate to my son the kind of expectations they had for their players.) 

In the end, none of the three were.  One of the players had  an  outstanding senior season and was named a second team All American, the other two tailed off a bit from their Junior years, even though they had very solid senior years. 

I think in the  history of my son's school 24 players have been drafted. the most recent in 2014 in the 33rd round.  

I would imagine that not all that many D3 programs have a much stronger draft history than that.   I believe, for example, that last years D3 World Series winner, for which Infielddad's son played,   had a player drafted in the 31st round.   He was, I recall reading,  the 8th player to be drafted in that excellent program's history. 

Some number of D3 guys also seem to find their way into the minor leagues as non-drafted free agents. Some from my son's school took that path. 

 

And many more end up in the low level independent leagues such as the Pecos. Pay there can be as low as 50 dollars a week, and at one point some players were paying to play. 

For some this worked out well as they moved up the Ladder to better leagues, for others not so much. 

I know it seems logical that D1 players should have a better shot at the draft than D3, but is it really based on skill or perception? I realize there are certainly top tier D1 schools that 90% of the D3 schools out there couldn't ever hope to complete against, but not all D1 schools are in that category. I recently was at D1 game followed up immediately by a JC game. I just didn't see a significant difference. Not in any aspect of the game, even pitching. A week or two later I saw a D3 game where I would make the same assessment. They may have looked better than the D1 teams we saw previously. Don't you have to consider the quality of the team, not just the division they are in?

And I'm curious, some of you mentioned that you feel JC may be a better option than D3? Could you expand more on that. My son, a HS Jr LHP, appears to have a solid opportunity to be in the starting rotation at a JC based on feedback from the coach. He's also shopping around at some very successful D3 schools and a few D1. Honestly we are making academics a big part of the decision process, but he really wants to play too. Do you think a JC with a great opportunity for playing time is a better choice than D1/D3 where it is questionable?

"but he really wants to play too. Do you think a JC with a great opportunity for playing time is a better choice than D1/D3 where it is questionable?"

Lots of stuff to unpack here. First, ignore whatever a JUCO or D3 coach tells you about playing time. Instead, use your eyes; how many showed up to tryout? How many of those were recruited? How did the coach distribute playing time? Did the coach have access in sending kids to summer leagues?

Second, as you noticed, there is a huge difference in the qualities of teams within divisions. I bet some power JUCOS could beat teams from the Ivy or Patriot league on a regular basis (some power D1 programs "park" players at the local JUCOS for a year or two to get them playing time and experience - those kids are really good). On the other hand, so,e JUCOS don't have enough decent players - so it's a case by case basis.

Third, at whatever school he attends, the coach will play the best combination of kids to give his team a winning chance. Go to some games at the schools under consideration; HONESTLY calculate where your kid fits into the talent on the field. (If you're not honest, your kid will be in for a crappy surprise.)

Fourth, does he have legit pro aspirations? While you may not see the difference in D3 v D1, pro ball does; for hitters, it's usually seen as D1 offers more consistent higher velo pitchers for batters to see. So, a D3 hitter with pro aspirations needs to go to a program which will place him in the top summer (Northwoods, Cape) leagues. 

Fifth, where (if at all) do finances enter the picture. D3s are all over the map in costs (from free at MMA and Coast Guard to 65k at Amherst).

Sixth, if you were to map out a 40 year strategy and career path for your son, which choice moves him appreciably closer to the goal (recognizing that you're probably going to be wrong, but it's the best you can do at this point)?

Seventh, where is the family on which college absent baseball - e.g., geography, size, course offerings, etc?

Goosegg posted:

"but he really wants to play too. Do you think a JC with a great opportunity for playing time is a better choice than D1/D3 where it is questionable?"

Lots of stuff to unpack here. First, ignore whatever a JUCO or D3 coach tells you about playing time. Instead, use your eyes; how many showed up to tryout? How many of those were recruited? How did the coach distribute playing time? Did the coach have access in sending kids to summer leagues?

Second, as you noticed, there is a huge difference in the qualities of teams within divisions. I bet some power JUCOS could beat teams from the Ivy or Patriot league on a regular basis (some power D1 programs "park" players at the local JUCOS for a year or two to get them playing time and experience - those kids are really good). On the other hand, so,e JUCOS don't have enough decent players - so it's a case by case basis.

Third, at whatever school he attends, the coach will play the best combination of kids to give his team a winning chance. Go to some games at the schools under consideration; HONESTLY calculate where your kid fits into the talent on the field. (If you're not honest, your kid will be in for a crappy surprise.)

Fourth, does he have legit pro aspirations? While you may not see the difference in D3 v D1, pro ball does; for hitters, it's usually seen as D1 offers more consistent higher velo pitchers for batters to see. So, a D3 hitter with pro aspirations needs to go to a program which will place him in the top summer (Northwoods, Cape) leagues. 

Fifth, where (if at all) do finances enter the picture. D3s are all over the map in costs (from free at MMA and Coast Guard to 65k at Amherst).

Sixth, if you were to map out a 40 year strategy and career path for your son, which choice moves him appreciably closer to the goal (recognizing that you're probably going to be wrong, but it's the best you can do at this point)?

Seventh, where is the family on which college absent baseball - e.g., geography, size, course offerings, etc?

Well laid out Goose

BigDNY posted:

I know it seems logical that D1 players should have a better shot at the draft than D3, but is it really based on skill or perception? I realize there are certainly top tier D1 schools that 90% of the D3 schools out there couldn't ever hope to complete against, but not all D1 schools are in that category. I recently was at D1 game followed up immediately by a JC game. I just didn't see a significant difference. Not in any aspect of the game, even pitching. A week or two later I saw a D3 game where I would make the same assessment. They may have looked better than the D1 teams we saw previously. Don't you have to consider the quality of the team, not just the division they are in?

And I'm curious, some of you mentioned that you feel JC may be a better option than D3? Could you expand more on that. My son, a HS Jr LHP, appears to have a solid opportunity to be in the starting rotation at a JC based on feedback from the coach. He's also shopping around at some very successful D3 schools and a few D1. Honestly we are making academics a big part of the decision process, but he really wants to play too. Do you think a JC with a great opportunity for playing time is a better choice than D1/D3 where it is questionable?

Yes.  To me playing time is important, if he wants to get better and afford himself future opportunities.  I believe JC is a great way to go, because it leaves a lot of options open.  If your boy chooses JC, he can still go DIII, DII, DI, or NAIA later.  That way, he makes a run at the baseball opportunity, and he can still end up with a solid degree.  Additionally, you can go to JC a whole lot cheaper and end up with less loans later.

I should also note for those that do not know me, I am probably more pro JC than most, because it has worked out wonderfully for my son.  So I am obviously REALLY biased.

I would add that some Jucos could compete against ANY D-1 team in the country.  That may sound preposterous to some, but there are a few JUCOS that are absolutely loaded with talent.  Just looking at my son's JC, that is currently 4 games under .500, they had 3 pitchers sign D-1, and 1 sign D-II.  There are some JC's that would have more than that sign for next year, and then several more get drafted.

I have come to think of JC as a place that offers a lot of doorways, both in terms of academics and athletics. Academically, here in California, a kid who goes to our local JC  can find himself at any UC or Cal State in 2 years, or they can find themselves still at the JC plugging away, or already in the workforce with an associate degree, or nowhere. Which door they choose is 100% up to them.

In baseball, obviously talent and coaches are limiting factors, but there is a similar range of opportunity.  Looking at  graduates from last year's team at our local JC, 2 guys are playing big roles for their D1 programs and are both likely to be headed to the CWS and, for one at least,  the draft.  Another was already drafted in the 20th round and signed.  A few more are playing D2 baseball.  Others have hung up their cleats and gone on to 4 year programs to finish their degrees.   The JC really opened doors for these guys, and they choose which ones to go through.

Great feedback everyone. 

RYNO, I agree with you. The JUCO on his list of possible schools plays a number of D1 schools before they start conference play and they definitely hold their own.

Thanks for all the detail Goosegg. I know the JUCO in question has his players on summer leagues, but I really don't have the knowledge to speak to the quality. He seems to have built up a pretty comprehensive baseball pipeline in our area starting with elite travel ball for 10U all the way through high college program. He is an ex-pro, AAA. I've known him a long time an I believe he will be honest in regard to play time, At the same time, I'm sure he will do whatever gives the team the best chance of winning.

I think I've always been honest in my assessment of my sons skills. I've coached various levels of baseball for over 10 years, so I've seen a fair number of players. I actually think I've tended to underestimate him. When he was 12U I always told him that just being good enough to play for his high school would be a great achievement and college would be phenomenal. Now here he is the #1 starter on his HS team with an  almost guaranteed chance of playing somewhere at the colligate level. Legit shot at going pro? Well that is everyone youth baseball player's dream, but I really don't know. We will be attending a couple college showcases this summer. I think it will be good to get a comparison with a wider range of players.

We have only been looking at schools that offer the majors he is interested in. The D3 schools we have looked at so far are state schools so cost isn't bad, relatively speaking. Obviously JC is very affordable and mom likes the idea of keeping her baby boy close for a couple more years

There are no easy answers to the JUCO equation, and my 2017 gave it some thought before deciding to choose the 4-year school that best fits his academic goals over having to do this all again in two years.  Frankly, he is worn out from all of the campus visits, coach talks and texts, and sorting through the merit aid and financial aid considerations.  And I like the fact that he has gone back to the same question over and over again:  if the baseball was not there, would you be happy at the school?  He would definitely not be happy at a JC sitting on a bench or not playing at all and then figuring out where he will finish college.  Whereas he would be satisfied (maybe not happy) at the four year if the baseball does not work.  He will get a great degree in his intended field and then hopefully move into the workforce.  He has no aspirations of pro ball, and he is academically strong, so he has always had the right perspective that the baseball is the lower priority.

Good luck to you and your son on the decision.  No matter what level he chooses to play at, it is a real privilege to even have the chance to be playing baseball post-high school. 

The D3 teams you watched were not better than D1 teams. The speed of the game is much faster at the D1 level. With a handful of exceptions pitchers throw harder, hitters hit the ball harder, fielders are quicker and faster and throw the ball harder. Base runners run faster. There are some  D3 players who don't see themselves as pro prospects who choose the academic D3 over a mid major D1. There will be some physical late bloomers with good tools at D3's. 

A D1 team would throw a D3 team off their game with the speed of the game and their depth. Here's a conversation I was involved with a few years ago. I was at a Boston College - Harvard game. Even at these two levels of D1 what I just said applies. Even when BC stinks in the ACC they typically beat Harvard and look better doing it. Trinity College (CT) had just won the D3  championship. The conversation was "Could Trinity beat Harvard?" As it turned out one of the BC dads was good friends and former teammates with the Trinity coach. He had asked him the question.. The answer was ... On our best day with our #1 pitcher (drafted in the 24th round, made it to AAA) we could compete with them. He didn't say they would win. Ironically the Trinity coach became the Harvard coach.

I went to watch a perennially ranked D3 play last weekend. It was the first time I went to a D3 game where there wasn't a kid playing I knew. That was always my emotional investment and rooting concern. I do know one of the coaches at the game I attended. I played college summer ball with him years ago. After the game I thought to myself, "I'm not choosing to go to a D3 game over an ACC game ever again.

If two D3 teams are on top of their game (rivalry, post season) you will see quality ball. But it is slower. It's noticeable if you're accustomed to watching D1 ball.

I'm never one to make broad conclusions, but there are hundreds of baseball programs at all levels.  Unless you have seen the worst of the D1 programs play (those in the non-power conferences and in the MW and NE) versus the best of the D2, D3, and JUCO programs (those typically in the SE, Texas and California), you can never say for certain that the D1 would always win a three-game series.  Maybe the lower program saves their best pitcher for game 2 and then it is even going into the third game when anything can happen.  I do know for certain there are some talented baseball players in SoCal who were not recruited at the D2 schools in CA and instead wound up with scholarships at low level D1s elsewhere.  It happens where kids choose a weak D1 just to say they went D1.

There are exceptions at every level, and each kid has to prioritize what is most important to them.  Would they rather sit on the bench and not play at a D1 or be a key contributor or even star at a D2 or D3?  Do they want to go to a larger school with larger classes taught by TAs or a smaller one where they know their professors on a first name basis?  As many have noted here, very few kids who play college baseball will ever play professionally, and then even fewer in the majors where they can earn a living.  So it should always be about where the best fit is academically, regardless of what that level is for baseball.

Goosegg posted:

"but he really wants to play too. Do you think a JC with a great opportunity for playing time is a better choice than D1/D3 where it is questionable?"

Lots of stuff to unpack here. First, ignore whatever a JUCO or D3 coach tells you about playing time. Instead, use your eyes; how many showed up to tryout? How many of those were recruited? How did the coach distribute playing time? Did the coach have access in sending kids to summer leagues?

Second, as you noticed, there is a huge difference in the qualities of teams within divisions. I bet some power JUCOS could beat teams from the Ivy or Patriot league on a regular basis (some power D1 programs "park" players at the local JUCOS for a year or two to get them playing time and experience - those kids are really good). On the other hand, so,e JUCOS don't have enough decent players - so it's a case by case basis.

Third, at whatever school he attends, the coach will play the best combination of kids to give his team a winning chance. Go to some games at the schools under consideration; HONESTLY calculate where your kid fits into the talent on the field. (If you're not honest, your kid will be in for a crappy surprise.)

Fourth, does he have legit pro aspirations? While you may not see the difference in D3 v D1, pro ball does; for hitters, it's usually seen as D1 offers more consistent higher velo pitchers for batters to see. So, a D3 hitter with pro aspirations needs to go to a program which will place him in the top summer (Northwoods, Cape) leagues. 

Fifth, where (if at all) do finances enter the picture. D3s are all over the map in costs (from free at MMA and Coast Guard to 65k at Amherst).

Sixth, if you were to map out a 40 year strategy and career path for your son, which choice moves him appreciably closer to the goal (recognizing that you're probably going to be wrong, but it's the best you can do at this point)?

Seventh, where is the family on which college absent baseball - e.g., geography, size, course offerings, etc?

The bolded statement may well be true -- there are some talent-laden JUCOs -- but I don't know why the Ivy league gets put up as an example of the dregs of D1. Here are the NCAA's current RPI rankings for the 299 schools in D1 -- no Ivy team is in the bottom 65 teams, and 3 are in the top 106:  www.ncaa.com/rankings/baseball/d1/rpi  

Put another way, the entire league is between the ~25th and ~75th percentiles in terms of D1 baseball. The Ivy League is on balance a collection of average D1 programs -- in fact, the Ivy conference RPI is currently 16th out of 31 D1 conferences (can't get more average than that): http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2017/conferencerpi

The JUCO beating D1 example would certainly apply to the Southwestern League: 8 of the 10 teams are currently ranked between 273 and 295.