D1 Transfer Question - Need Help

Hustle,
Welcome tote HSBBW. The rule for "sitting out" is one year of residence at the new school before eligible. If the player were to enroll at new school and maintain academic eligibility, then he should be eligible in the Spring of 2010.
It may not be quite as easy as it sounds, as the player may have to earn a roster spot at the new school while being unable to participate in fall workouts. I may be wrong on the last part of this, and if so forgive me, but the roster spot still must be earned. Not a given at most D1 schools.

Since he is a sophomore: but call me crazy but would it not be better to transfer to a JC for the spring semester then he can transfer wherever he wants and not have to sit out the fall just as long as he makes sure that he has the right credits to graduate from the JC and get his AA and have the right credits to get into the new school.

Maybe 3fingers can validate that....

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
Since he is a sophomore: but call me crazy but would it not be better to transfer to a JC for the spring semester then he can transfer wherever he wants and not have to sit out the fall just as long as he makes sure that he has the right credits to graduate from the JC and get his AA and have the right credits to get into the new school.

Maybe 3fingers can validate that....

Is this possible?

So you could transfer out, go to a JUCO for a year, and then transfer to a D1 school?

As far as I know, yes, as long as he graduates from the JUCO at the appropriate time, as dictated by the NCAA.

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
As far as I know, yes, as long as he graduates from the JUCO at the appropriate time, as dictated by the NCAA.

What is the "appropriate time"?

hustle07,
spizzlepop has given you a good answer. If the player transfers to the new D1 school starting in the spring 2009 semester, then the year of residence requirement will have been satisfied at the start of the spring semester in 2010. Bear in mind that since the player will have completed 3 semesters at the first school, he must have completed at least 30 credit hours, and have completed at least 6 hours in the fall 2008 semester. (14.4.3.1.2)

The only thing I would add is that, by NCAA rule, the player will be eligible for athletic financial aid, and eligible to practice in the fall of 2009. The residency requirement only applies to competing, and receiving travel expenses. (14.5.1) However, individual conferences could have more restrictive rules for academic progress which might affect transfer students (but I doubt this really happens). (14.4.2)

The scenario of transferring to a JC, and then back to a new D1 school is probably not workable. The NCAA terms this a 4-2-4 transfer, and such transfers need to meet 3 requirements: (14.5.6)
1) 12 hours of transferable credit per term
2) one year has elapsed since leaving the first 4 year school
3) graduated from the 2 year college
Otherwise he needs to wait one year of residence before competing.

Item 2, in conjunction with the requirement (14.5.6.2, also 14.5.4.1.1, 14.5.4.2.3) that a baseball player tranferring to a 4 year D1 school must have attended classes during the fall term in order to play in the spring, means there is no way for the player to play in 2010 at the new school. At least that's the way I read it. Added October 15-- The previous paragraph corresponds to the Transfer Guide. However, the D1 Manual has rule 14.5.6.3, which says the one calendar year must elapse before competing, rather than before enrolling at the second 4 year school. That implies that a 4-2-4 transfer is possible, although arranging to get an AA degree in one spring semester sounds tricky.

One thing to consider when weighing the decision to transfer. This is just an opinion, but the NCAA doesn't like transfers. In the event that the player has a medical redshirt, and then loses another year because of a second injury or other hardship, the NCAA can grant a 6th year in which the player can complete his 4 seasons of competition. Again, it's just my guess, but I suppose that the likelihood of the NCAA granting the hardship waiver is decreased if there has been a transfer. I'm pretty sure that if the transfer were to take place next fall, so that the player sits out his junior year, no 6th year would be granted.

quote:

Originally posted by hustle07:
Need some help to clarify the transfer rule. Current player is attending a D1 school on baseball scholarship. Just had surgery and will be red shirted for his upcoming sophomore season.

If the player just had surgery and given a redshirt, which means rehab avaliable and practice with the team, why would he transfer and then have to compete against healthy players? This is an opportunity to get better, on the coaches dime if he has a scholarship. It also allows time for the player to work a bit harder on his degree without baseball, which is why you go to college in the first place.
Good point, the NCAA made it difficult for one to transfer, become familiar with the rules, it's not as easy as one thinks.

3FingeredGlove- You are amazing with your grasp of the NCAA handbook, chapter and verse. We always know you'll have the answers to these tricky questions. I think we've all come to depend on you to answer these difficult questions. It's people like you and TPM, TRhit, Observer 44 and Fungo that make this site so great. Oldies but goodies, by this of course I mean lots of experience.

Thank you and I hope I never need to ask these types of questions!

quote:

Originally posted by hustle07:
Need some help to clarify the transfer rule. Current player is attending a D1 school on baseball scholarship. Just had surgery and will be red shirted for his upcoming sophomore season. If he transfers during this school year after his 1st semester and enrolls in another D1 school for the second semester, can he use this upcoming season as his sit-out period for the transfer or would he lose another year of eligibility his Junior year?

Without knowing the particular students academic standing etc. it 's very difficult to give an accurate answer. I would suggest the student in question find out if the current school compliance officer will speak confidentially with him (I assume they will) and then pose the question to the person who should really know the NCAA rules/rulings and the students history to provide/narrow down to the best possible answer.

Thanks for the replies, they have all been very helpful. My son was just accepted at the other D1 school, all credits transferred. He plans to sit down with his current coach this week. My guess is he will be immediately removed from the team. Plan would be to meet with new coach at the beginning of the 2nd semester. Know it is a long shot, but is the new coach permitted to let him work out with team in the Spring (non-roster), understanding full well that he would still need to tryout as a walkon come Fall of 2009.

Was your son on scholarship (signed an NLI) at his current D1 school?

If so, I don't understand how you can transfer from a school since the NLI is for the entire school year.

Am I missing something?

quote:

Originally posted by hustle07:


Thanks for the replies, they have all been very helpful. My son was just accepted at the other D1 school, all credits transferred. He plans to sit down with his current coach this week. My guess is he will be immediately removed from the team. Plan would be to meet with new coach at the beginning of the 2nd semester. Know it is a long shot, but is the new coach permitted to let him work out with team in the Spring (non-roster), understanding full well that he would still need to tryout as a walkon come Fall of 2009.

Hustle, I have to agree with Rob. I don't think I can see how another D1 has allowed this unless he has completely assure you it was well within NCAA rules and regulations to do so.

I am pulling for you but I just hope that you haven't shot yourself in the foot accidentally.

Good luck.

Good point, yes he is on scholarship, paid each semester. I wish I was smart enough to know what the repurcussions are to the scholarship at his current school for this year. I assume the coach will clue him in when he meets this week. For the record, the reason he is considering the transfer, he is a pitcher, just had to have his labrum fixed, 220 degree tear. He knows his future in baseball is a now a big question. He has decided on a new major that his current school does not offer and the new school does. He still plans on pursuing the baseball with all he has, but in order to pursue the field of study and still have a shot at playing baseball his Junior season, he was told he has to make the move now.

You never know what coaches will do these days, but if your son sustained his injury while at school (came in healthy), the coach most likely will give him a chance to rehab for a year. He will need to rehab under teh schools trainer based on doctor recommendations, unless you want to pay for it yourself. Why not stay and get some basic courses needed paid for, and get the rehab in. If his bb career is over, worst case scenerio he may lose some courses in the transfer later on but has been able to get better.

There is no D1 coach that I know of unless your son is a stud that will rehab anyone who sustained an injury elsewhere and pay for him to sit a year.

It may be a time to do some soul searching, what is more important, sitting a bench rehabbing for months and months or working towards the degree you want. It takes a looong time to recover from labrum surgery. My son recently had only arthoscopic surgery, the prognosis is 5-6 months recovery.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Was your son on scholarship (signed an NLI) at his current D1 school? If so, I don't understand how you can transfer from a school since the NLI is for the entire school year.

hustle07's son is a sophomore. Only incoming freshmen and JC transfers are allowed to sign an NLI. NLI site A returning player is notified in writing by his school (before July 1) if his aid will renewed for the following year. My belief is that there is no NCAA mandated eligibility repercussions for withdrawing from school mid-term or at the end of a term. If a player withdraws from the team mid-term, the school may cancel his aid for the remainder of the term (15.3.4.2), but simply requesting permission to contact a different school concerning a potential transfer is not considered withdrawal.

Besides NCAA rules, individual conferences can set up their own more restrictive rules which possibly could limit a financial aid award at the new school.

Finally, some coaches may, as a courtesy to other coaches, not accept transfer students. I don't know how often this occurs, but it is more likely if the transfer is within one conference.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, all great stuff. Definitely been doing the soul searching. Toughest thing is he missed most of his freshman year due to UCL surgery … pretty much been snake bit. Good news is he is great about rehab and doing whatever it takes to get back, plus Andrews did the surgeries. We both agree the education is now his top priority, which is his biggest motivation for transferring. Just in case he is in the small percentage that make it back from labrum surgery, we want to make sure the transfer is done at the best time. It is a different conference, so I don’t think that should be a problem.

By the time this all shakes out the young man may be draft eligible(age 21 within 45 days each way).

Anyway, great application of the college baseball scriptures(BYLAWS). Used to do that, but they are there for everyone's interpretations.

quote:

Originally posted by hustle07:
Good point, yes he is on scholarship, paid each semester. I wish I was smart enough to know what the repurcussions are to the scholarship at his current school for this year. I assume the coach will clue him in when he meets this week.

I think CollegeParent is correct; you should try to get some official answers. I'd probably start with calling the NCAA before contacting the present schools compliance officer. You also need to find out if there is any rule in the new conference that would limit participation or financial aid.

That said, here's an approach that may be useful to not lose the scholarship for this term. The player could tell the coach that he is considering (not decided yet) transferring, and why, and tell him that the player will ask the AD for permission to contact a coach at the potential new school. He needs that permission to contact in order to keep open the possibility of aid during the first year after transferring. It's OK to talk to the school without permission (including their compliance officer or non-athletic personnel) but not the coaches. He should be careful to not "withdraw" from the sport, and permission to contact is expressly listed as not constituting withdrawal. (see 15.3.4 in the D1 manual)

Regarding working out with team, bear in mind that a player has to be on the 35 man roster to take part in spring team practice. The player is on the 35 man roster at his current school, because he is a counter. At the new school, he is unlikely to be put on the roster this spring, so he can't practice with the team, even if he gets healthy enough to so so. Maybe the coach at the new school would allow him to rehab with the help of the team trainer, but as TPM says, probably not.

Insurance question: did the injury occur and the operation required happen while he was on scholarship at the school?

Regarding your question, yes, the injury did occur while pitching last season. Took the above advice and talked with the NCAA Compliance and they stated that if he does transfer, he cannot participate in any team competition for two semesters. Also, his current scholarship is honored for this semester as long as he does not violate any team rules.

Regarding workouts, he is very capable of doing all of his conditioning and rehab on his own. Good news is he was just released to start throwing. Biggest issue now will be having the ability to complete his rehab throwing program. I’m hoping as 3Fingered Glove mentioned, he can avoid the 35 man roster issue by throwing on the side with the help of a trainer … we understand it is probably a long shot. If not, he will just have to find a way to work that out on his own.

Thanks again … I sure wish I had found out about you guys earlier, the information has been invaluable.

Now that most of the whole story is now avaliable.

With labrum surgery and UCL surgery, I think at this point I would advice my son to transfer and go after the degree that he wants.

No he cannot practice with the team and if he has had any contact with the new coach without a release or permission there is a violation of NCAA rules. He also has to sit one year in residence at the new school which means he can't walk on to the team next fall. And he cannot be rehabed by the team trainer.

Has your player been up front and honest at all with the coach? Recently there was a post about a player let go by a coach (hurt) before the semester began, too late for him to look for another opportunity. Seems in this case, the coach will be out one less roster player, he could have used your player's scholarship. The way I see it, this prevented a healthy player from an opportunity.

I may have the wrong facts, but I do beleive in honesty on both ends.

JMO.

All good points. No we have not contacted the transfer school, guess you can say we got lucky because we did not know of the rule, which we do know now. Also, the feeling was not to get too far along until he talks with his coaches and makes a decision. Regarding scholarships, all of the eligible players are back from last season. You make a good point that raises another question. They had already made the decision before the season to red-shirt him, does that count for a scholarship or roster spot for the upcoming season.

Your son as a redshirt player with scholarship is considered part of the NCAA allowed 35 man roster, not in addition to.
Some schools treat red shirt players differently. At sons school all redhsirted players are given uniform and #, must sit with the team in the dugout at home games and sometimes taken on weekdnight games. They are allowed use of the athletic facilities, academic athletic advisors and rehabbed by trainers, work one on one with coaches and practice fall and spring. This makes them feel like apart of the team, preparing for their role the following year. The only thing that they can't do is travel as part of the 25 man roster and play.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
No he cannot practice with the team and if he has had any contact with the new coach without a release or permission there is a violation of NCAA rules. He also has to sit one year in residence at the new school which means he can't walk on to the team next fall. And he cannot be rehabed by the team trainer.

We're talking about a injured sophomore who is considering transferring to a D1 school mid-year, right?
I disagree with some of the above quote, so let's hash it out.

At the new school, if they have room on the 35 man roster, and if they decided to put the transfer player on the 35 man roster, I believe that he could practice with the team, without violating NCAA rules. It seems unlikely that the new school would do it, but I'm not aware of any NCAA rule which would prohibit it.

I also believe that he can practice next fall without restriction, and in that sense walk on. The one year residency requirement is for eligibility to compete in inter-collegiate games, and the 35 man roster only comes into play during the championhip segment, which is roughly mid-February through the end of the D1 Championship.

Finally I think the team trainer can work with anybody, provided the activity is voluntary on the part of the player. The trainer can't report any details of the activity to the coaching staff. Again, it's up to the new school to decide if they want to do this.

By the way, as several have noted, the player needs to get permission to contact. Without such permission, the player isn't eligible for financial aid for 1 year. However, if a conversation takes place without the permission, any penalty falls on the coaches at the new school, not the player. Finally if permission isn't granted, there is an appeals process. (13.1.1.3)

I had the same case I was injured my sophmore year and transferred to a juco. I redshirted my freshman year. I played one year at a juco and got picked up by another D1 school. Its not a bad route bt a lot of shuffling around but I'm glad I did it because I really like where I'm at now. Just make sure you get your AA and have enough credits before you start at a new d1 or you will not be elligible.

3FG,
You are the man, so no argument here. I was in another zone, of course the player has to try out and make the roster to work with the team, I thought that he meant right away (this spring) not being on the team roster. Of course that could happen if he was rostered this spring.

One more thing, I am not sure if a player is allowed to work with the team trainer if not on the fall or spring roster, I'll try to get an answer on that one.

Might not be too hard to find someone who could throw with you, but then you would have to find someone who will work with you to help fix any issues that may have caused the problems.

All of this does put the player behind, while others are moving forward. As long as the player realizes that in transfering and possibly never playing baseball again, that can work. I am not sure if people realize the implications of missing one season and the preparation for a return, let alone two.
JMO.

3FG,

Check this out. I think (NOT SURE) that a player has to be a scholarship player to join the spring 35 man roster?
Also, a paid athletic trainer at some schools cannot work with players not on roster, against most school policy, however a graduate trainer, not being paid, MAY. This can become a conflict of interest and may seem biased later on. It was suggested that the player find a qualified pitching coach for mechanical issues.

In your next life, go for a complicnace position at big State U.

TPM,
I'm not sure what you meant, but this year there can be no more than 30 counters, and in subsequent years no more than 27 counters. So if a school carries the full 35 men on its roster, there would have to be at least 5 players this spring who don't have scholarships.

I was under an assumption, about something said to me that a player that comes in (as a transfer) for spring must be a scholarship player (counter). So in other words someone with no scholarship (due to new rules) cannot begin in the spring. In other words your counters have to be eligible beginning fall?
Not sure if that is the case. Thought you might know if that was true or not.

TPM,
The rule that you may be referring to involves eligibility to compete. Any transfer player, counter or not, must be in school full time during the fall term in order to play in games during the spring season. That's a new rule starting this year.

Here's a correction regarding 4-2-4 transfers. On the first page of this thread, the question was posed whether a college sophomore could transfer to a JC for the spring term, graduate from the JC, and transfer to a D1 school the next fall, and be eligible to compete in games the next spring. For example, transfer to the JC in January 2009, graduate with an AA in June 2009, transfer to a D1 in September 2009, and compete in spring 2010.

I replied that it probably wasn't workable, because of a requirement that one calendar year elapse between leaving the first 4 year school and transfering to the second 4 year school. That answer is supported by the Transfer Guide.

However, the D1 Manual, which I believe trumps the Transfer Guide, has rule 14.5.6.3 which states "It is not required that the calendar year specified in Bylaw 14.5.6 elapse prior to the student’s initial enrollment as a regular student in the second four-year institution, but the calendar year must elapse before the student represents the certifying institution in intercollegiate competition."

So I believe the 4-2-4 scenario with only the spring semester at the 2 year school is legal per the NCAA.

3Fingered - Thanks for the follow up, you are the man!

That makes be feel better now: I don't have to be right, but I hate being wrong and giving poor advice!