I would certainly assume that the D1 players get many more looks than D2, but is the gap as wide as one would suspect? Do D2's have Pro days like D1's?
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JUCO's D2 and D1 all have a "scout or pro day".
University of Tampa, a D2 is unique, but we have between 5-10 scouts at most games.
University of Tampa, a D2 is unique, but we have between 5-10 scouts at most games.
There are some stats around for this, but don't be picking a school or program based on pro scouting. Way too many other important factors. If a player is good enough he will be seen at any level.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
There are some stats around for this, but don't be picking a school or program based on pro scouting. Way too many other important factors. If a player is good enough he will be seen at any level.
IT DOESNT matter.EVEN d3 ,,if you are good your college coach WILL get you looked at by pro scouts..EVERY college wants to BOAST about having a student go pro..it builds up their program ..
As an indirect response to your question, my son likes to point to the material number of other-than-DI players you routinely see on the rosters of the best summer leagues... as well as how well so many of them do there.
If another division's program and school are a more comfortable fit for a player, he certainly shouldn't allow concern about being visible enough to pro scouts deter him from making the choice.
If another division's program and school are a more comfortable fit for a player, he certainly shouldn't allow concern about being visible enough to pro scouts deter him from making the choice.
We have at least one at every one of our DII games. Of course his son plays on the team! 
It's an interesting question,
But like many of said here it simply doesn't matter, that'd be like a scout not going to see a low level HS Team. If you're good enough and they hear about you they will go and watch you regardless of where you're playing at.
But like many of said here it simply doesn't matter, that'd be like a scout not going to see a low level HS Team. If you're good enough and they hear about you they will go and watch you regardless of where you're playing at.
bbscout, a legend on this site and as a MLB scout in our area for well over 30 years, was so terrific to help members and posters on the site when it came to topics like this.
He had one short quick answer:
MLB scouts are paid to find prospects, no matter what level they play and no matter where they are playing.
If they don't, they get fired.
And yes wogdoggy, they find them "EVEN" at the D3 level.
Prepster is exactly right. Summer Wood bat leagues really help on the scouting criteria, especially for players from other than the top 50-75, or so, DI programs.
He had one short quick answer:
MLB scouts are paid to find prospects, no matter what level they play and no matter where they are playing.
If they don't, they get fired.
And yes wogdoggy, they find them "EVEN" at the D3 level.
Prepster is exactly right. Summer Wood bat leagues really help on the scouting criteria, especially for players from other than the top 50-75, or so, DI programs.
Son play's DII in CACC, there are scouts at every game.
My son asked me an honest question when we were discussing the possibility of him going to a D2-D3. It was how many non D1 kids get drafted every year. I found the information here on this forum which essentially shows a big drop off after D1, though other kids do get drafted, including from the NAIA.
So I think it is fair to say that if you are good and stand out, kids can be found at any level. However, either due to sheer numbers, more talent(on average), or greater scouting of D1 kids, they get the lions share of draft picks.
Keep in mind as another poster pointed out, do not make your decision solely based on who gets more attention/drafted. Most kids playing college will not be drafted, so a quality education should be of paramount importance.
So I think it is fair to say that if you are good and stand out, kids can be found at any level. However, either due to sheer numbers, more talent(on average), or greater scouting of D1 kids, they get the lions share of draft picks.
Keep in mind as another poster pointed out, do not make your decision solely based on who gets more attention/drafted. Most kids playing college will not be drafted, so a quality education should be of paramount importance.
In my view and experience, DI vs DII can be quite misleading for the draft. Whatever we want to think and over generalize, it isn't the level at which you play, for the most part, it is how you play and perform at that level, and project into the future that determines scouting activity and getting drafted.
Another part is how hard the college coaching staff works at getting scouts information on their players and how hard the staff works to get scouts to see players.
A third part relates to how many scouts are in the area.
A fourth aspect is how much credibility the college coaching staff has with scouts.
For those at the top 25 to 30 programs in college baseball, some players won't see many innings, if any, but can still get drafted.
When we get outside the top 60-70 or so DI programs, which is where the best players are and should be found and where the largest population of drafted players are found, there are plenty of DI players who never get drafted.
I am not sure there is any valid or reliable information on how many players/programs outside the top 75 DI programs even get good looks, as contrasted with scouts who watch U of Tampa, Delta State and others, for instance, at the D2 level.
bbscout used to spend plenty of time at NAIA Lewis-Clark in Idaho because they had many, many draft prospects.
While I am not sure anyone has valid information, if we took out the top 75 DI programs, I would venture a guess that the number of players drafted from the rest of D1 isn't all that much larger than from all of D2.
Another part is how hard the college coaching staff works at getting scouts information on their players and how hard the staff works to get scouts to see players.
A third part relates to how many scouts are in the area.
A fourth aspect is how much credibility the college coaching staff has with scouts.
For those at the top 25 to 30 programs in college baseball, some players won't see many innings, if any, but can still get drafted.
When we get outside the top 60-70 or so DI programs, which is where the best players are and should be found and where the largest population of drafted players are found, there are plenty of DI players who never get drafted.
I am not sure there is any valid or reliable information on how many players/programs outside the top 75 DI programs even get good looks, as contrasted with scouts who watch U of Tampa, Delta State and others, for instance, at the D2 level.
bbscout used to spend plenty of time at NAIA Lewis-Clark in Idaho because they had many, many draft prospects.
While I am not sure anyone has valid information, if we took out the top 75 DI programs, I would venture a guess that the number of players drafted from the rest of D1 isn't all that much larger than from all of D2.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
While I am not sure anyone has valid information, if we took out the top 75 DI programs, I would venture a guess that the number of players drafted from the rest of D1 isn't all that much larger than from all of D2.
That would be a very interesting thing to know if it is broken down like that. Presumably someone with enough interest could do it by having the list of all 300 ranked D1's and excluding all the draft picks from the top ranked 75 programs for that year. Then whatever the number turned out to be, compare it with the other divisions like D2-3, JC, and NAIA.
The way one coach explained it to me, is that if your son plays "where the elephants go to die" he had better perform well when they played other teams/players the scouts were interested in. If he doesn't play against any teams like that, he will have a hard time getting noticed.
Anyone else ever hear something close to that analogy?
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quote:If he doesn't play against any teams like that, he will have a hard time getting noticed.
I would expect a college coach could use a description of that type.
I could also expect a college coach of a program "where elephants die" to have a very different view and pitch.
The question is which is right for the players in their program and which has a proven record of success in getting scouts to see their players and getting them drafted, if that is what is being discussed.
Again, too bad bbscout's words cannot resonate. His view was MLB scouting was very different than college scouting. His view was MLB scouts get paid to find players.
If they don't, they get fired. Plain simple process. bbscout did it for close to 40 years so I view him as a highly reliable source.
Heck, upwards of 10 scouts and and 2 area cross checkers sat in San Antonio on a Tuesday night a few years back watching a D3 game, which appears to be where "elephants die" according to views of some posters.
After a lot of communication with bbscout, and our son's college coaches and his current staff, I don't put much credence in the idea that good players who project won't get noticed. Just don't.
I think results vary dependng upon whether or not your talking about a position player or pitcher. My understanding from one "guy" was that postion players in JC play get "discounted" at draft time due to the fact they are not hitting against higher level (d1) pitching every game. Whereas a JC pitcher that throws 95 won't have any kind of darft discount because it doesn't matter who the hitters are as long as he can throw. Obviously someone like Harper is an exception, but my recollection from looking at the draft a few years ago was that I didn't see JC position players taken in the first 4 rounds. I would assume its the same for D2, NAIA, D3.
Good point made about pitchers and hitters. Only thing is, I have to disagree because the past three years results show differently. the first Juco player picked in the past three drafts was a position player. In fact, the first three juco players picked in each of the past three drafts were position players.
2010 - Bryce Harper, 1st overall pick.
2010 - Levon Washington, OF, 1st round.
2010 - Andrelton Simmons, SS, 2nd round.
2011 - Cory Spangenberg, 2B, 10th overall pick.
2011 - Brian Goodwin, OF, 1st round.
2011 - Keenyn Walker, OF, 1st round.
The first JC player in 2009 draft was Evan Chambers, OF, 3rd Round. The next JC player taken was Keon Broxton, 3B, also the 3rd round.
2010 - Bryce Harper, 1st overall pick.
2010 - Levon Washington, OF, 1st round.
2010 - Andrelton Simmons, SS, 2nd round.
2011 - Cory Spangenberg, 2B, 10th overall pick.
2011 - Brian Goodwin, OF, 1st round.
2011 - Keenyn Walker, OF, 1st round.
The first JC player in 2009 draft was Evan Chambers, OF, 3rd Round. The next JC player taken was Keon Broxton, 3B, also the 3rd round.
CollegeParent,
Your points seem pretty valid and accurate.
Pitchers throwing 95, to me, just turn the entire discussion upside down.
Several years back I started a thread on Dustin Pedroia and a Bay Area pitcher who threw upwards of 95mph, and higher.
Pedroia was a terrific player at ASU but, before the 2004 college season and draft, was somewhat of an enigma for draft projection.
On the other hand, the pitcher had about 20 total innings in 3 years of college and was being projected to go far higher than the college performance(lack of it) would support.
bbscout jumped in, predicted Pedroia would be a star and that thread ended about 2 years later when bbscout posted about Pedroia being called up and starting in Boston. Talk about being accurate.
Well, the 95mph pitcher was picked(5th/6th round) as I recall. Was out of baseball the following year.
When it comes to pitching, 95mph means something in the draft no matter what level of play and, sometimes, no matter what the quality of the result at the level of play.
Your points seem pretty valid and accurate.
Pitchers throwing 95, to me, just turn the entire discussion upside down.
Several years back I started a thread on Dustin Pedroia and a Bay Area pitcher who threw upwards of 95mph, and higher.
Pedroia was a terrific player at ASU but, before the 2004 college season and draft, was somewhat of an enigma for draft projection.
On the other hand, the pitcher had about 20 total innings in 3 years of college and was being projected to go far higher than the college performance(lack of it) would support.
bbscout jumped in, predicted Pedroia would be a star and that thread ended about 2 years later when bbscout posted about Pedroia being called up and starting in Boston. Talk about being accurate.
Well, the 95mph pitcher was picked(5th/6th round) as I recall. Was out of baseball the following year.
When it comes to pitching, 95mph means something in the draft no matter what level of play and, sometimes, no matter what the quality of the result at the level of play.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
Heck, upwards of 10 scouts and and 2 area cross checkers sat in San Antonio on a Tuesday night a few years back watching a D3 game, which appears to be where "elephants die" according to views of some posters.
I am assuming you are referring to Trinity, a D3 in SA? If so I doubt people would say that was a dead elephant program.
I think the coach I referenced was talking about programs without much of a baseball reputation. There are certainly D2's and some D3's that could give D1's a run for their money on any given weekend.
alot of d1 players choose other venues to play ball and mix their education as well..so I wouldnt say there isnt any talent at d3. the costs even with a half sports skolly from a d1 school may be more than a highly rated private d3.a kid throwing 88-89 might be a d1 prospect but may never ever get to play.A kid throwing 88 -89 in d3 is getting to play.some great players may find playing time cost convenience and fit more important than the status of d1.
There were 15+ scouts at my son’s game today in SA. (not to see him ) They were there to see his starting pitcher who had an "off" day and only had 9k’s in 6 innings…. It was game 1 of a double header so they pulled him after 6 (7 inning). They won 9-1. He was only 91-93 today…..
) They were there to see his starting pitcher who had an "off" day and only had 9k’s in 6 innings…. It was game 1 of a double header so they pulled him after 6 (7 inning). They won 9-1. He was only 91-93 today…..
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Good point made about pitchers and hitters. Only thing is, I have to disagree because the past three years results show differently. the first Juco player picked in the past three drafts was a position player. In fact, the first three juco players picked in each of the past three drafts were position players.
2010 - Bryce Harper, 1st overall pick.
2010 - Levon Washington, OF, 1st round.
2010 - Andrelton Simmons, SS, 2nd round.
2011 - Cory Spangenberg, 2B, 10th overall pick.
2011 - Brian Goodwin, OF, 1st round.
2011 - Keenyn Walker, OF, 1st round.
The first JC player in 2009 draft was Evan Chambers, OF, 3rd Round. The next JC player taken was Keon Broxton, 3B, also the 3rd round.
This may be a little off point to the OP question however would it be out of line to think that when it comes to pro scouting recognition, Junior Colleges would probably be a close second on the list of areas that scouts focus on when it comes to college players?
While I know PG's response was to point out the pitchers vs. position players rational, I noticed that many of the guys on the PG's list went the JC route almost as a placeholder so they could be draft eligible sooner than having to wait until after their Junior year?
Harper's journey to JC was well known as a quick stop off before being a first round draft choice whether he stayed in HS or went to a JC.
Washington was a 1st round draft pick out of HS but couldn’t come to an agreement with Tampa Bay so he basically went back into the pool via JC until the next draft.
Goodwin transferred from top 10 D1 program to JC for whatever reason but I assume much of it was so he could be drafted after his soph year.
Not sure about the others however would it be fair to say that most of those on this list were top level talent that decided to go JC vs. top 4 year schools because of draft implications?
Levon Washington actually signed with UF, but became ineligible. I may be wrong, but because of that he had trouble coming to terms with the team?
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:quote:Originally posted by BOF:
There are some stats around for this, but don't be picking a school or program based on pro scouting. Way too many other important factors. If a player is good enough he will be seen at any level.
IT DOESNT matter.EVEN d3 ,,if you are good your college coach WILL get you looked at by pro scouts..EVERY college wants to BOAST about having a student go pro..it builds up their program ..
Both of these posts are right on the money as a matter of fact this whole thread is very informative. This fellow Babe Ruth player son played with went JC to DII, watched him yesterday pitch in front of two scouts who came just to see him and his fellow starter. He will be the only one out that team of years ago to be drafted, and all by going to a DII. After the game, he had the usual pro questionnaires forms from the scouts. By the way he touched 94 on the guns. I have a saying, if you can't hit 95 you better throw 95 if you want to get in the pros (minors). I was also very impressed with both team's level of play, very well indeed. Quite ironic indeed for son who pooh poohed going to DII because of this very wrong perception.
It is a simple matter of numbers why the D1 kids seem to be "more draftable", there is only a limited number of picks each year, scouts go where the most talent tends to be and D1 is it. Just watch and listen to a college D1 game on TV. It isn't that the other schools have lesser talent, they just have so many slots to fill.
The number one reason why some of these other kids get drafted is they have a coach with connections who believes in them.
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:
IT DOESNT matter.EVEN d3 ,,if you are good your college coach WILL get you looked at by pro scouts..EVERY college wants to BOAST about having a student go pro..it builds up their program ..
Boy you couldn't be more right on this one. It also applies to summer teams, just don't be caught on the depth chart as number 2, run don't walk away from any coach that wants you to "supplement" his All American". He is a liar outright.
There's a lot of good stuff in this topic.
Players don't necessarily get drafted because of where they attend but rather what the scout sees and reports back to the organization as future potential at the pro level, they are looking for potential ML players. Remember that players are graded on a scale, and that can determine where they will fall come draft day, not where they went to school. Who the coach is may be very helpful in teh process as some coaches, regardless of levels are able to identify, sign and train players for the next level, most cannot or have any clue on how to or care to as well.
Sorry, just because a pitcher hits 94,95 does not mean he has future ML potential nor does his win record. Neither does how many HR you hit with a wood composite bat. I think that these days saber metrics plays a huge role in who is looked at but not necessarily in who gets drafted.
Again, much of it is based on a scale. JMO.
Yes there is more exposure at the D1 level and at the better D2 and D3 programs.
Players don't necessarily get drafted because of where they attend but rather what the scout sees and reports back to the organization as future potential at the pro level, they are looking for potential ML players. Remember that players are graded on a scale, and that can determine where they will fall come draft day, not where they went to school. Who the coach is may be very helpful in teh process as some coaches, regardless of levels are able to identify, sign and train players for the next level, most cannot or have any clue on how to or care to as well.
Sorry, just because a pitcher hits 94,95 does not mean he has future ML potential nor does his win record. Neither does how many HR you hit with a wood composite bat. I think that these days saber metrics plays a huge role in who is looked at but not necessarily in who gets drafted.
Again, much of it is based on a scale. JMO.
Yes there is more exposure at the D1 level and at the better D2 and D3 programs.
Related story..
I went to a Cal Poly vs. San Diego State game this weekend. I usually get to a half dozen or so Poly games a year. They play a pretty strong D1 schedule. Even though they have cracked the rankings this year, there was a particular absence of scouts at this game. They threw who they consider their ace, but he doesn't throw particularly hard. The one kid who was a physical stud graduated (to the draft) last year. So, even though they are a successful high-level D1, they are not getting scout attention without the high MPH throwers or physical beasts. BTW, the kid threw a gem.
I went to a Cal Poly vs. San Diego State game this weekend. I usually get to a half dozen or so Poly games a year. They play a pretty strong D1 schedule. Even though they have cracked the rankings this year, there was a particular absence of scouts at this game. They threw who they consider their ace, but he doesn't throw particularly hard. The one kid who was a physical stud graduated (to the draft) last year. So, even though they are a successful high-level D1, they are not getting scout attention without the high MPH throwers or physical beasts. BTW, the kid threw a gem.
quote:Not sure about the others however would it be fair to say that most of those on this list were top level talent that decided to go JC vs. top 4 year schools because of draft implications?
Not only fair, it would be accurate.
Regarding scout turnout. Often there will be no scouts at all levels, even DI. Scouts try to get the most bang by going to games where there are more than one prospect. Even if they are closely following a position player, they will try to schedule a good "matchup" with a prospect pitcher. Two or more birds with one stone. Obviously, if a high velocity pitcher is identified, a good matchup is still preferred but scouts are going to be there anyhow.
Cabbage.
Unless there was a specifice player that was being scouted I doubt that most scouts would make the trek to SLO, and they would likely see him when he traveled to the Bay Area or LA area. Given they are not following the specific starter then it would not surprise me the lack of scouts. I guess this is more or less exactly what PG posted above me..D'oh. Now I personally would love to come up to SLO for the weekend and watch a game.
Unless there was a specifice player that was being scouted I doubt that most scouts would make the trek to SLO, and they would likely see him when he traveled to the Bay Area or LA area. Given they are not following the specific starter then it would not surprise me the lack of scouts. I guess this is more or less exactly what PG posted above me..D'oh. Now I personally would love to come up to SLO for the weekend and watch a game.
BOF,
Yeah, makes sense. But I was comparing to the small group I usually see behind home plate with guns and notebooks (and not wearing participating team gear). The last few years, there have been five or six on average with more when an opponent had a hard-throwing ace. Poly also got some attention the last few years with an OF with a good game and an NFL body (Crocker). This weekend there were none there that were apparent.
You'll have to let me know if you ever do make it through town when they are playing... would love to buy you a ballpark dinner for all the help you've provided.
Yeah, makes sense. But I was comparing to the small group I usually see behind home plate with guns and notebooks (and not wearing participating team gear). The last few years, there have been five or six on average with more when an opponent had a hard-throwing ace. Poly also got some attention the last few years with an OF with a good game and an NFL body (Crocker). This weekend there were none there that were apparent.
You'll have to let me know if you ever do make it through town when they are playing... would love to buy you a ballpark dinner for all the help you've provided.
Over the past four drafts, six players out of my son's D2 program have been drafted and one more was signed as a free agent. Now that's not a big number compared to the top-shelf D1 programs, but I would guess that it stacks up fairly well against most mid-major D1s and probably better than many low-level D1s. Of those seven players, three have been released, three are still playing in the minors, and one has reached the majors. You never can tell what's going to happen, but the best players will be found, and I've seen plenty of scouts at our games over the years.