D3 JV Teams

Don't forget each year a kid plays JV another 6-8 preferred freshman are recruited and brought in. From the few D3 JV situations I've heard of only late bloomer pitchers ever made varsity.

I work at a JUCO and have spent tons of time with the coaches that have come through here getting advice for my 2 sons.  One said the D3 he came from put pressure on them to get a certain number of kids, so while the coaches hated the idea of a JV team they had to use it to convince some kids that they would get to play some while developing for the future.  Most have said that if baseball is the key factor in choosing a school, to be extremely careful in picking one that has a JV program as it was rare for anybody put on that team to ever play varsity.  Last spring I went to watch our team play a D3 JV team from about 30 minutes away.  I got there at game time and the other team was just pulling into the parking lot.  Apparently they could not leave until varsity practice was over.  The coach kept his hands in his pockets most of the game and never clapped or flashed a sign.  They phoned in the game and went home.   

Just my 2 cents...I'm sure there are legit JV programs.

RJM posted:

Don't forget each year a kid plays JV another 6-8 preferred freshman are recruited and brought in. From the few D3 JV situations I've heard of only late bloomer pitchers ever made varsity.

Also of note - the time spent on a JV team counts against your NCAA clock. 

I cannot speak for all JV teams, But I can say in the NCAC that most teams have them. There are no rosters for JV teams. In all the cases I know oif they practice and lift with the varsity. Most players do not know they are going to play a JV game until the week of the game. The head varsity coach coaches just like he would for varsity. He may give his younger assistants opportunities to be base, or bench coaches during these games. 

Recently OWU played Dension in a DH. I know of 3 Varsity contributors (not necessarily starters) played. Pitcher were week day starters. The JV will play 2 or three games over spring break. After they get back from Florida there will probably be a couple of games during the season. 

As far as progressing from JV to varsity. The majority of my sons team that played in JV games, eventually made it to varsity. If you were not playing on Varsity or JV, the chances of you ever playing varsity were slim to none. Now playing on JV was not a requirement to play Varsity. Many players at my sons school never played a game of JV, but most of those started Varsity as Freshmen. 

When my son went through the process, none of the coaches ever mentioned JV teams and we never asked. 

My son's old D3 program (perennially top 10 team) has a JV team and it is very normal for kids to play both games to get in extra AB's if coming off an injury, etc, pitchers to get work in, as well as develop the younger players. The full starting line up is Sr this year so you can bet a number of the JV kids will have to step in next year. It is also not unusual for a pitcher to take a couple of years to get to the level where they can compete at the highest D3 level, and without roster limits they can do this. It is a challenge for the coaches to manage that many kids but at least my son's program makes it work. They typically have 10-15 JV games/yr. We had a perennial JV player (5th year Sr) have an impact on a CWS game and the coach brought him in to the interview room as one of the two he was allotted and the player raved about the coach giving him the opportunity. They are treated the same as the V players, they work out in small teams in the gym with a mix of JV/V - no differences, just prior to game days V gets priority. The team also plays a LOT of intersquads and you need a lot of kids to do that consistently. They make it work, and obviously quite successfully.  

"When my son went through the process, none of the coaches ever mentioned JV teams and we never asked. "

In a reasonable recruiting world, the programs with JV teams would be fully transparent about it and families wouldn't have to ask . . . versus showing up at campus and surprise!

B I G M A C,

As this posts shows teams use JV in different ways. Maybe in my sons case they did not see him playing JV, hard to tell. How many kids do you think a coach would turn off if he started talking about a JV team, and how the recruit might fit. Many kids would turn away from those programs. JV teams are not necessarily a bad thing. But many Players and there parents would not want see their son on JV. 

In any case I suppose playing on JV has to be better than sitting on the bench. As in all things, buyer beware. That is what this board and others like, D3Boards.com are so helpful. 

b i g m a c posted:

"When my son went through the process, none of the coaches ever mentioned JV teams and we never asked. "

In a reasonable recruiting world, the programs with JV teams would be fully transparent about it and families wouldn't have to ask . . . versus showing up at campus and surprise!

Some colleges publish their  JV teams, for example Linfield list its JV coaches and JV game schedule (http://www.linfield.edu/sports...hedule.html?sport=bb). And from there you know all the other JV teams in the area too. I hope all other D3 with JV teams follow the example and make it very transparent.

A question:  Are JV teams becoming more common or less common -- or basically no change?  Only reason for asking is that I know of a couple of D-3's that have dropped their JV team over the past few years due to (as I understand it) Title IX issues.   

BLD, I hear you, it would be more difficult to land a recruit if the coach is straight with him about the kid's abilities and the JV team.  To that, some would -- maybe naively -- still say that straight-shooting should be the norm.  And, the flip side of that coin is that in certain circumstances the program is intentionally not being straight with certain kids/families and, based upon less than perfect information, the kids/families are making huge (and sometimes bad) decisions.  Buyer beware indeed (unless and until things change).

Personally, I'm grateful for this forum such that you all have educated me on the issue(s) and we know what to ask.

I agree some D3 teams are not very transparent about their JV team. In my sons old team, I do not believe the coach ever recruited players based on there ability to play on the JV. The big question I would have for any school recruiting my son, if they had a JV team, Do the JV players get the same attention and the same opportunities as the varsity players. Does the varsity coaches work with them, are they lifting with varsity etc...

How many games does the JV play. As a example Linfields look like they play 14 games. I do not think OWU's JV ever played more than 6, mostly early in the season and while on spring break. Varsity was expected to be in attendance for many of those games.

I am going to use wrestling as an example. In wrestling a college program needs bodies to be successful, you need other wrestlers to push the varsity wrestlers, to be good partners. Many of these bodies will never see a varsity match. But they are in the room with varsity learning the same things, getting the same coaching. I do not know how many on here have experience with wrestling, but that is a lot of HARD work to put in, and never see the mat. This is a sport that I truly believe needs a JV team. And I would hope that most baseball teams that have JV, would treat the JV players the same way. 

At my son's school,  it is now clear, after a season in the program, that JV players are basically being given an extended tryout.   After the JV season ended,  the guys were called in one by one for "exit" meetings and given very frank and direct advice as to what they needed to do to stay in the program.  2 of the guys were sort of  semi "called up"  to the varsity for the rest of the year -- except that one of the 2 was called up only to practice with the varsity and not to suit up for home games or travel to away games. The other was called up because of an injury to a bench player.   The remaining players all  got the message that nothing at all was guaranteed to them for next year.  They were "welcome" to try out again next year.   But the coaches said to them all, I gather,  some version of  "You have to realize your position. We are not promising your anything.  We are always looking to replace you with an upgrade.  And unless you get better in these ways..... (this was specific to the player), we likely will replace you." 

Seems clear in retrospect that this is more or less standard procedure for this program.   Bring in a LOT of guys -- both transfer and freshman.   Cut about 40 - 50 % of "recruits"  in the fall.   Place a few of the recruits  on varsity as either starters or bench players.   Then give a significant number of especially the remaining  freshman (but also some transfers)  an extended tryout  via the JV process.    A few of them will make the varsity next year.   Most of them will be given a handshake at the end of the year with no promises about the future.  

Repeat the following  year.  

My son had sort of figured this out from just the way things were going.   He concluded from early on that the ethos of the program is "produce or be replaced by somebody who will,  kid."   But  it was a little jarring for him to be told this  point blank in such stark terms.

On the semi- positive side for him personally, they told him that he has a ton of raw talent, and a tremendous upside, but they also said,   "unlike High School,  raw talent doesn't last in college."  

They specifically want him to work on refining his footwork in the OF,  improving his routes, and on hitting the ball to all fields, rather than being what they see as too pull happy -- and this even though he put up pretty gaudy numbers  on offense. 

Every level is improve or be replaced. Every year new "top" prospects are brought in. I saw a Power 5 player go from freshman starter to soph platoon player to junior backup to told he would have to make the team senior year. He passed. He got the message.

Over this player's tenure the program improved immensely. It raised the recruiting bar. The player peaked freshman year. He didn't improve after arriving at college. Better players came in every year.

SluggerDad,

I really appreciate you posting this thread.  I help kids locally with recruiting and I try to highlight to them the roster spot realities.  Your post emphasizes that nothing is guaranteed.  Even a "guaranteed" Spring varsity roster spot is a one year deal at best...

Branson Baseball posted:

SluggerDad,

I really appreciate you posting this thread.  I help kids locally with recruiting and I try to highlight to them the roster spot realities.  Your post emphasizes that nothing is guaranteed.  Even a "guaranteed" Spring varsity roster spot is a one year deal at best...

 

Branson, can you offer an opinion as to whether Sluggerson's program is particularly cutthroat, both in terms of D3 generally and in the SCIAC specifically?  Sounds pretty brutal, especially when you consider how much families are paying to attend.

My 2012 had a travel team buddy who went there.  Kid was starting SS at NCS Div3 champion powerhouse.  He was placed on the JV team at this D3 college and ended up transferring to another school after two years (and never playing baseball again).   

JCG, my son was recruited by all but one(CalTech) of the schools in the SCIAC. I remember the Whittier head coach telling my son that he anticipates about 60 players showing up every year for fall workouts/practice.Out of that group he would keep 32-35 depending on the needs of the team.

I'm certain that every school in that conference except Cal Tech, Pomona and Claremont does the same thing.As you know,these three schools have much tougher academic and admission requirements so its not possible to have 60 guys out for fall ball.The other schools are relatively easy to get into therefore there is a much bigger pool to draw from. 

California is a tough place to find a great fit for the majority of  student athletes aspiring to play college baseball. There are more talented and qualified players than there are roster spots. That's why I  encourage players and their parents to look outside California.Lots of opportunities exist on the east coast and midwest .

I

bobbyaguho posted:

 

...

California is a tough place to find a great fit for the majority of  student athletes aspiring to play college baseball. There are more talented and qualified players than there are roster spots. That's why I  encourage players and their parents to look outside California.Lots of opportunities exist on the east coast and midwest .

 

Just to echo and expand on this point, consider some numbers.    There is not a single D3 school in all of  Northern California.    in all of California, there is only one D3 conference.  Basically a  9 team conference, with  all 9 teams being clustered in  So Cal.  As, bobbyaguho says,  three of the  schools in that conference are extremely  selective and admit students from all over the country, indeed all over the world.   But even  some of the less selective schools that  draw a larger % of their students from their local areas, still  are very serious about their athletics and, at a minimum,  heavily recruit student athletes  from up and down the West Coast and Hawaii  -- sometimes farther afield. 

In all of Washington State,  Oregon, and California combined there are 19 baseball playing D3 schools.   These three states have a combined population of nearly 50 million.   Plus in each of these states, baseball is intense and intensely competitive -- most intense in California, but Washington and Oregon are very, very serious about their baseball too.   So there are a  LOT of very talented baseball players in these states -- a lot -- and at all levels they are chasing a very scarce resource -- college roster spots.

Compare that  to Ohio or Wisconsin.  Wisconsin has  21 D3 programs -- more than California, Washington and Oregon combined, but it has a population of less than 6 million.  Ohio has, I think, 23 D3 programs with a population of 11 million.  

So yeah in California finding a roster spot, even at a D3 program, is tough indeed. 

This may sound a bit mercenary; but one of the benefits of a good D3 program is the ability to attract students that want to play baseball.  With tuition for many schools at $40-50K per year, the ability to attract enough players to fill a JV team is an economic windfall for a school. I am not saying that schools over recruit; but I am suggesting that "budget meetings" are easier when a program has the ability to recruit well for the school.

SluggerDad posted:

bobbyaguho posted:

 

...

California is a tough place to find a great fit for the majority of  student athletes aspiring to play college baseball. There are more talented and qualified players than there are roster spots. That's why I  encourage players and their parents to look outside California.Lots of opportunities exist on the east coast and midwest .

 

Just to echo and expand on this point, consider some numbers.    There is not a single D3 school in all of  Northern California.    in all of California, there is only one D3 conference.  Basically a  9 team conference, with  all 9 teams being clustered in  So Cal.  As, bobbyaguho says,  three of the  schools in that conference are extremely  selective and admit students from all over the country, indeed all over the world.   But even  some of the less selective schools that  draw a larger % of their students from their local areas, still  are very serious about their athletics and, at a minimum,  heavily recruit student athletes  from up and down the West Coast and Hawaii  -- sometimes farther afield. 

In all of Washington State,  Oregon, and California combined there are 19 baseball playing D3 schools.   These three states have a combined population of nearly 50 million.   Plus in each of these states, baseball is intense and intensely competitive -- most intense in California, but Washington and Oregon are very, very serious about their baseball too.   So there are a  LOT of very talented baseball players in these states -- a lot -- and at all levels they are chasing a very scarce resource -- college roster spots.

Compare that  to Ohio or Wisconsin.  Wisconsin has  21 D3 programs -- more than California, Washington and Oregon combined, but it has a population of less than 6 million.  Ohio has, I think, 23 D3 programs with a population of 11 million.  

So yeah in California finding a roster spot, even at a D3 program, is tough indeed. 

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences from parents about these "East coast and Midwest" D3 schools. Is it true that it's easier to get on the team (and stay on the team) and balance academics with baseball? I hope it's true and not "the grass is greener on the other side of the hill".

It is a numbers game. If you look at the number of HS by state, extrapolate out 7-10 seniors a year and then identify the number of college programs offering baseball you will see that states like Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Ohio have more roster spots available to less players in their respective states. If you are a good player from a state with more players than roster spots you will have a far greater success finding a team if you are willing to leave your home state. 

My son played on a very good HS program in norther California. He was probably the 5-6th best player on his HS team. He got very little attention from California schools. Yet he had  offers in South Carolina, Ohio and Texas. He choose to go to school in Texas and had a very successful collegiate career. If he was unwilling to expand his horizons he may of not had an opportunity to play collegiate baseball. 

Bogeyorpar posted:

SluggerDad posted:

bobbyaguho posted:

 

...

California is a tough place to find a great fit for the majority of  student athletes aspiring to play college baseball. There are more talented and qualified players than there are roster spots. That's why I  encourage players and their parents to look outside California.Lots of opportunities exist on the east coast and midwest .

 

Just to echo and expand on this point, consider some numbers.    There is not a single D3 school in all of  Northern California.    in all of California, there is only one D3 conference.  Basically a  9 team conference, with  all 9 teams being clustered in  So Cal.  As, bobbyaguho says,  three of the  schools in that conference are extremely  selective and admit students from all over the country, indeed all over the world.   But even  some of the less selective schools that  draw a larger % of their students from their local areas, still  are very serious about their athletics and, at a minimum,  heavily recruit student athletes  from up and down the West Coast and Hawaii  -- sometimes farther afield. 

In all of Washington State,  Oregon, and California combined there are 19 baseball playing D3 schools.   These three states have a combined population of nearly 50 million.   Plus in each of these states, baseball is intense and intensely competitive -- most intense in California, but Washington and Oregon are very, very serious about their baseball too.   So there are a  LOT of very talented baseball players in these states -- a lot -- and at all levels they are chasing a very scarce resource -- college roster spots.

Compare that  to Ohio or Wisconsin.  Wisconsin has  21 D3 programs -- more than California, Washington and Oregon combined, but it has a population of less than 6 million.  Ohio has, I think, 23 D3 programs with a population of 11 million.  

So yeah in California finding a roster spot, even at a D3 program, is tough indeed. 

I'd like to hear opinions and experiences from parents about these "East coast and Midwest" D3 schools. Is it true that it's easier to get on the team (and stay on the team) and balance academics with baseball? I hope it's true and not "the grass is greener on the other side of the hill".

It's not that there isn't talent in the East and Midwest. It's the number of colleges. The further east you go the older the education trail. I didn't research how many baseball programs there are in Massachusetts. But there are 68 colleges with athletic departments registered with the NCAA, NAIA and NJCAA.

It is not really a regional phenomenon. It is school by school or conference by conference.  For instance, in Ohio you have the NCAC and the OAC. Teams in the NCAC usually have roster sizes in the thirties. Sometimes less. In the OAC, rosters are usually in the 40's.  

While most teams have JV squads, it id not as slugger dad describes. The JV teams usually play a few games in the early spring to get an extended look at players in a game situations. The JV games are usually complete shortly after teams get back from their spring trip. 

Not that it is that easy to get and on and stay on a team. I know one team that brings in quite a few players in the fall and many do not make it to the spring, every year. At my sons old school if you were a recruted player you have at least two years to prove your self. At OWU a freshmans chance of playing changes from year to year. This year only one freshman is getting extended playing time. They have 5 seniors starting (they are the best players) and the other positions are taken up by sophomores and juniors. Next year there will be quite a better opportunity for playing time.

A lot of research is required when targetting schools. Each school is unique.  Schools in the same conference or region of the country handles things in their own way. Some put more emphasis on winning, some it is merely to expand the student experience. 

I am not an expert on D3 JV programs. My son's school had a JV program for a year or two; I don't think it is still in existence. 

You can learn a lot about a program by looking at the past 3-4 years of stats. What you will see is in Year 1, you will have 9-13 position players that play the majority of the innings. Then you will have 6-12 position players that will get a few innings and a few a bats (difficult to define a few until you look at the stats). Then in Year 2 as the seniors from Year 1 move on some of the 6-12 players that got playing time will move up. In addition, you will add a new class of freshman. Some of the Freshmen will be part of Year 2's players that play the majority of the innings and some will join the 6-12 that will get a few innings. Year 3 & 4, the process continues. The good players move up, the good players that are recruited will join in and the cycle will continue.

Then the question is where do JV programs fit in. I am not an expert; but it takes a commitment from the University, it's coaching staff and the athletic department (to fund a JV program). I would expect most D3 programs to follow the model that I have outlined. Funding a JV program is a terrific way to keep players that may not play engaged with the program. In that there are not that many (from what I have seen) I question if they can make a big difference in the competitive profile of a given program.

Why not consider California JC or the strong Division 2 teams in the UC system. The Coaches do not guarantee roster positions.  

Bob