D3 Question

From my very limited experience I can tell you that 2 D3Coaches have guaranteed my son a roster spot and another explained that he guarantees recruits a roster spot for 1 year and from then on they have to make the team every season. Unfortunately, he has not offered one of those spots to my son.........yet.

I think it is very reasonable to ask a recruiting coach, regardless of the level the basic questions of where you (or your son) fits in their recruiting hierarchy. How many new players are they recruiting?, what positions?, where am I on your depth chart, who is playing in the positions you are being recruited for?, what will the make up of the team look like in the fall?, etc, etc. Once you get all of this information you then have to understand the character of the coaching staff that is recruiting you. Talk to former players, current players, parents of players here at HSBBW!.

Once you have the full picture then you are making an informed decision. This is the best you can do with or without an NLI. While the NLI may be comforting, in reality you have to show up and earn a spot regardless what is on the paper. I also believe that many D3’s roster more than 35 players so even if you are guaranteed a “roster spot” unless you make the 25man than your playing time will be limited. No coach worth his salt will guarantee you a 25 man spot.

Going to a program just because you have an NLI, and in reality can’t compete there is the dumbest move a player can make and I can’t tell you how many of my son’s friends have done this. Same situation applies to a D3, know your abilities and understand what level the program is at and go in their with the mind set you are going to earn a spot. It is really not all that complex.

Frankly the questions Jusbaseball posted in “what are your goals?” are the most important questions to ask.

A related story...

I had a very recent conversation with a good friend who's son just started freshman year at a D3. Last week, several freshman were cut, including the son's roommate. Most of these kids were strongly enocouraged to join the program with dialog along the lines of "what would it take to get you to *** to be a part of our program?", "We'd love to have you join our program", etc., followed by concerted efforts to help these young men with academic aid, etc.

The cuts came as quite a shock to most and was very upsetting to them as well as some of those who remained.

Another story from another friend yesterday...
An infielder who started at a JC last year is currently 3rd or 4th on depth chart this year due to incoming talent.

We've heard it here many times - there are no guarantees. Yet, sometimes, it doesn't really sink in for us newbies until it hits close to home.

Definitely make every effort to get as much information (know where you stand) up front as you can.

One of the things I still struggle with - I try to let son ask all the questions and handle his business, but how well can a young 17yo conduct such an interview with a HC when he is nervous about talking to him? He's had a few discussions and done pretty well but forgot to ask some pertinent questions.

When is it OK or appropriate for parents to engage in coach discussions?

Cabagedad,

When you get down to having serious discussions it is always with the head coach and sometimes the recruiting coach. Sometimes my wife was there and sometimes not. In all cases I would always let my son take the lead and get all of his questions in; I would be the color commentator so to speak and help fill in some gray areas where my son might not have been clear. After this I would always make sure I would ask the direct tougher questions. In one case it was a program that was closer to our house and we would go and watch their fall scrimmages, and then go sit in the dugout afterward with the coaching staff and “just talk”. It was in one of these “just talking” sessions that we started to get really nervous about the program.

In every single program that we were very serious with I talked to someone on this site who’s son was either in or had been through the program. This is part of doing your homework, like Ronald Regan said “trust but verify”.

When it is all said and done however your son will have to be one of the best 9 in the program to be onthe field. (or 1 of 12-15 pitchers)

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One of the things I still struggle with - I try to let son ask all the questions and handle his business, but how well can a young 17yo conduct such an interview with a HC when he is nervous about talking to him? He's had a few discussions and done pretty well but forgot to ask some pertinent questions.

cabbagedad, your post is such a good one this time of year. It is important.
The JC illustration shows the need to be continuously getting better, to never be satisfied, and that coaches are always trying to get the best players.
For the d3/entering freshman, I personally think the discussions are most effectively held when they are face to face and during a weekend visit. During those discussions, there is ample time for a recruit to become more relaxed and most coaches who want a recruit want to help them know they are wanted. On a weekend visit, nearly every coach will allocate plenty of time to speak with them. The higher the recruit, the more time available. The meetings on a Sunday of a visit are usually a very good time for the parent to also be involved. The coach who is speaking with a top recruit wants that player, and his parents, to leave with the best impression possible.
Once that visit occurs, I don't think there are any issues with the parent talking with the Coach, if that is needed.
I also firmly believe that visit must include a time when your son can see the team on the field in a highly competitive situation. Our sons need to see and visualize if he can compete at whatever level he is seeing.
Our son did his visit alone. I know others have parents who join the visit.
For our son, when he was being recruited and now that he is recruiting, the goal wasn't/isn't the roster. The goal is to be recruiting those who are hungry to play and to compete for playing time, and for the discussion to be about what that takes/what is that process and for both to be committed as close to 100% as possible.
While I have never asked any coach, or our son, directly, I truly would wonder if a competitive college coach at any level would consider the question of a "roster spot" as a positive.
I don't know the answer.
By this, as BOF and others have posted, I want to emphasize that good D3 college baseball is about competing. Honestly, nothing is guaranteed.
Good college coaches might well vary in whether they would feel positive about a potential recruit if the impression is created the player is competing for slot #35, rather than being hungry and competing/working for playing time his freshman year.
I want to emphasize I don't know the answer to the question posed by Tx-Husker.
I understand the parental aspect of wanting assurances and/or a level of comfort.
There just isn't much comfort or many assurances in college athletics.
Playing time depends on talent, skill, drive, willingness to sacrifice and compete, and get better every day, all the while doing the same in the classroom...and then do it better the next season until all 3 or 4 seasons come to an end.

Thanks for taking the time to share all that IFD. To me it's really not about assurances. It's about knowing where the coach's head is. Seems to me there's a pecking order...category levels, if you will - starters, then travel squad roster, then full roster, then walk on guys. In a D1/D2 scenario, the coach will make it pretty clear what he's thinking based on an athletic scholarship offer (percentage). But in D3 essentially everyone's a walk on, so it's a little harder to know which of those 4 categories he might have the student pegged at. Obviously there's a you have to earn it aspect, but it's good to understand how big the coach thinks the hill is in front of you.

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Obviously there's a you have to earn it aspect, but it's good to understand how big the coach thinks the hill is in front of you.

I completely agree with your point.
I think our son's need to get that information for sure. For us as parents, I am not so sure. Would it be comforting? Yup.
Our experience with D3 baseball in Texas and the SCAC's is limited, to an extent, although our son was a recruiting coordinator in 2008 in Texas.
It sure seems the experienced coaches from smaller and academically selective D3's who were/are successful, were very willing to be honest and forthright on those aspects.
Without a track record, though, I agree with you it could be quite a bit tougher.
UT-Tyler, for instance, is a highly competitive D3 and they bring in many JC's who are very,very talented. They have had plenty of movement in the coaching staff.
I would not for one minute argue the process/experience at Southwestern/Trinity would be necessarily the same at UTT or UTD.
I am not sure if there is a one size fits all answer for your very good questions. Trinity and Southwestern are quite different from UTT and UTD in so many ways, including the baseball talent pool available to them.

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I think our son's need to get that information for sure. For us as parents, I am not so sure.

Agree 100%

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It sure seems the experienced coaches from smaller and academically selective D3's who were/are successful, were very willing to be honest and forthright on those aspects.

This matches up with our experience. 4thGen was a mid to lower level DI recruit and was recruited by a large number of D3 high academic programs. Without fail the coaches we met with did a great job of making it clear what he could expect from admissions and financial aid and what they expected from him on the baseball field. Some of the coaches did ask for a commitment prior to using whatever influence they had with admissions. No one said he had a spot but most said he'd have a chance to compete for a starting spot. D3 coaches have a pretty good idea of what they have coming back and where a kid will fit in. As an example, over the past three years 4thGen's team has had between 6 and 9 recruited kids enroll each year. These guys are on an email list the coach uses to set up summer workouts and keep in touch. In the Fall they will have another 15 or 20 new kids show up for tryouts. All of the recruited kids have made the rooster of ~35 kids. Getting on the field is another matter.

Sometimes as a parent we need to listen objectively. The kids I've coached who have had unhappy circumstances have usually understood something different that what a coach actually said. "I expect you to be our 4th outfielder if you continue to work hard and face good competition this summer" is different then you will start as a sophomore. Do your homework prior to meeting with the coaches so you can ask good questions and understand the answers you're getting.

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Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:

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It sure seems the experienced coaches from smaller and academically selective D3's who were/are successful, were very willing to be honest and forthright on those aspects.

This matches up with our experience. 4thGen was a mid to lower level DI recruit and was recruited by a large number of D3 high academic programs. Without fail the coaches we met with did a great job of making it clear what he could expect from admissions and financial aid and what they expected from him on the baseball field. Some of the coaches did ask for a commitment prior to using whatever influence they had with admissions. No one said he had a spot but most said he'd have a chance to compete for a starting spot. D3 coaches have a pretty good idea of what they have coming back and where a kid will fit in. As an example, over the past three years 4thGen's team has had between 6 and 9 recruited kids enroll each year. These guys are on an email list the coach uses to set up summer workouts and keep in touch. In the Fall they will have another 15 or 20 new kids show up for tryouts. All of the recruited kids have made the rooster of ~35 kids. Getting on the field is another matter.

Sometimes as a parent we need to listen objectively. The kids I've coached who have had unhappy circumstances have usually understood something different that what a coach actually said. "I expect you to be our 4th outfielder if you continue to work hard and face good competition this summer" is different then you will start as a sophomore. Do your homework prior to meeting with the coaches so you can ask good questions and understand the answers you're getting.

Guys,
Thanks for the great information and insight.

There is one element that is missing from this discussion. Assurances aside, kids must compete and it is through this competition that roster spots and playing time is earned.

When my son went through the recruiting process and he (with our guidance) needed to make a decision we had to evaluate the "risk" of not making the team.

We (my son and I) spent more than one day watching practice and attending games. He needed to really understand the level of play, the players that were on the team and who he would have to compete with if he attended the school. I can not stress how important this level of self-evaluation is in making a decison as to whether to attend or not any given school.

The coaches job is to bring in talent. He can say almost anything; but ultimatly his job is put the best team on the field and anything he says when recruiting is just that "recruiting."

Parents and players, do your job; visit practice, see a few games and assess your game and how it fits any program that you are considering.

I'm coming to the conclusion that an advantage of not signing an NLI is it allows most of you to not make a decision until May 1. With this in mind, the advice here to attend practices and games is very timely for the 2012s in the group. You have the advantage of seeing the spring version of the school you are leaning towards, you will know by then whether or not you were accepted, and thus are in the best position of seeing how your talent matches up. Come the fall, as stated in a prior post, all roster spots are the equivalents of walk-ons. Find out if you can become a 'Stay-On'.

Experiences may vary based on the program. After soph year of high school a high end acadedmic D3 with a top ranked baseball program expressed interest in my son. After doing some research I discovered they tell 20+ recruits they will make the team. Then they are placed on a JV team. Very few freshmen make varsity. It's common not to get varsity playing time until junior year. I would hardly call being placed on JV a commitment.

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Sometimes as a parent we need to listen objectively.

This is great advice. It's important to read between the lines on what the coach is saying. Also look for a program where the coach loves the player.

When my son was going through the process I would go watch college games and talk to parents about their recruiting experience. I asked one parent if a rival school had recruited his son. The dad reponded, "Yes, they had interest. He could have been on the team. But this school loved him. He starts as a freshman."

RSF21 - I don't completely agree with you. At the very competitive D3's the coach is trading support for the application for commitment from the player. The player's commitment comes in the form of an ED application. The coach doesn't have nearly the horsepower with admissions in regular decision. The system doesn't work perfectly - sometimes kids get rejected anyway - sometimes they get cut on the field - however, by and large, the very competitive D3 process resembles the D1 process in many ways. D3 coach is trading admissions for commitment, D1 coach is trading money for commitment.

(RJM - I think I know the program you are talking about. That guy is a legend as an "over-recruiter"!)

I am not aware of any “trading of support” at any of the DIII’s my son talked to and the one he eventually enrolled at. It is patently against NCAA rules. Either you qualify or you don’t. A coach can get you accepted after the cut off dates, or can help you understand the process and keep you informed, but any other influence is highly unlikely and is in fact illegal.

Roster spots, how the team is being made up, and who they are bringing in at position, etc is all based on trust.

Over recruiting at D1, 2 or 3 levels becomes pretty transparent with a little background work.

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Originally posted by BOF:
I am not aware of any “trading of support” at any of the DIII’s my son talked to and the one he eventually enrolled at. It is patently against NCAA rules. Either you qualify or you don’t. A coach can get you accepted after the cut off dates, or can help you understand the process and keep you informed, but any other influence is highly unlikely and is in fact illegal.

Looking at the smaller, typically private highly selective schools, they all have diverse characteristics that set them apart from each other. However, the single characteristic not one of these campuses wants to ever be known for is over crowding.

Therefore, these schools are acutely aware of their admissions "yield", which is the percentage or number of admitted applicants who end up enrolling and attending. Each school has a data set to forecast yield, and Early Decision applications are considered a good thing because the yield on ED apps is nearly 100%, thus very predictable.

The vast majority of students who apply at these types of schools are "qualified" in that their academic statistics are within range of the historic class profile. Therefore, lots of "qualified" and even "competitive" applicants are denied admission. This is often because the school places value on a diverse set of admission qualifications, including special talents (music, debate, athletics, exceptional academics, etc) plus, other factors come into play, like an institutional mission for developing ethnic and geographic diversity, or campuses that seek students who display exceptional leadership and/or community service.

All you need to do is look at the data set for a large high school, and you will see numerous examples where a student with seemingly higher academic stats is denied admission to a school over another student who on paper may have lower stats.

The coach is able to support a "qualified" application through Early Decision,but there is less leverage in regular decision.

You can do the math, but lets say a school targets an incoming class of 500 max. If they admit 75 ED applicants, they've got 425 more slots to "yield" from regular decision acceptances. However, if they admit 175 ED applicants, they now have only 325 slots. So, the selectivity of the regular decision pool of applicants just got a lot tougher. Then, what happens if they receive 300 or 400 more regular decision apps than expected (not an unusual circumstance)? Then, the selectivity (% of acceptances) ratchets even higher. So, the "qualified" or "competitive" to even "highly competitive" applicant can become a **** shoot relative to gaining acceptance during RD, because the school MUST manage/ratchet-up it's RD admissions selectivity to manage to yield.

They simply cannot end up with drastically more students than they can effectively house and put into class rooms while still maintaining the "elite" characteristics that are the foundation of the institution. They would rather err on the side of a smaller incoming class as opposed to over-sized.

That's why the coaches'"support" of a "qualified" Early Decision application is of value, because that same "qualified" applicant is taking their chances during RD, particularly based upon the volume of ED acceptances and the volume of RD applications.

like2rake

I understand the logic thanks for taking the time with the explanation. I really was not thinking about yield or acceptance rates etc. So you are more or less saying that a coach can march in with a qualified candidate and as long as he is at least as qualified as the rest of the student population who gets accepted he will get a slot. Got it.

My experience is with highly competitive (baseball) DIII programs and most of them are not really looking for early decision candidates from what I have seen. I think their ideal prospect profile is for a high academic D1 player who wants to go to their school 1) For academic reasons or 2) wants the prospect of playing more 3) may have fallen through the D1 cracks. 4)Get a D1 walk on spot and the academic offer is better at the DIII. I would assume all of these candidates would be later in the process as opposed to earlier. That said I guess they would fit the mold of a high yielder.

All this is well and good, but in the end if the candidate does not meet the minimum academic standards of the institution then it will not matter what the coach wants.

What if a D3 coach says that "If you verbally commit to me now with an early app, then I'll commit to you too and won't continue looking for more at your position all winter"???

1. Is that a line of BS?
2. Is that a good reason to early verbal commit, because if you don't, and you decide to wait until Spring to see more of the team in action, then don't you run the risk of the coach finding someone he likes better?

Sandman,

A lot would depend on the reputation of the coach, the relationship you have with him, the school, the program, and cost factors.

If you have done all of your home work, and this is a perfect fit for your son then I would say OK. If there are questions, and you are going to do it because it is the only offer on the table then I would wait. It also depends on where you live, at least out here in Cal, I know coaches come out and see players play during the Sr HS season.

This is really a personal decision that only you and your son can answer. It is like a walk on spot at a D1. I can say this, if the coach at my son's school told him this I would believe him, however my son's coach would never guarantee him a spot on the travel team, this you have to earn. Also no coach is going to go into a season with only one player for a particular position, so knowing this situation would also come into play.

Good luck.

On the "trading of support" issue...

I'm no expert, but the NESCAC statement on admissions specifically says that the colleges can take certain factors into consideration in the admissions decision, including the position of the player and the expectation that they can make an impact (I'm paraphrasing).

What isn't permitted (as I understand it) is a coach promising a certain outcome in the admissions or finacial aid process.

each school does things differently---some allowcoaches to be involved in the admissions process---others do not---go to other parts of the country and there are more variations

To clarify, HC said he likes to recruit 3 middle infielders every couple years, so that they can grow, and eventually by sophomore year play, together. Once he gets verbal commitments from them, he then stops looking. Again, I need to hear how he phrases this, in case my son misinterpreted or heard what he wanted to hear.

We'll know more hopefully after an overnight visit this weekend (my wife and I will be going too).

But after that, how do we go about learning the rep of the HC and how much he keeps his word on recruits and verbal commitments? I wouldn't think we'd want to just post a general "Who has thoughts about XYZ U?" because I wouldn't want it to come across the wrong way if the HC were to see it. Or is that ok, and just ask people to PM me their thoughts, so that none of us are uncomfortable with such a public discussion. (Of course, PMs don't benefit the hsbaseballweb community and future families interested in this particular program.)

Do we directly try to contact former players (via Facebook?)?

This school IS our son's top choice though. Top-10 nationally ranked team that went to CWS last year, close enough to home, has his major, and he has a great shot at ~50% in merit aid. It's a GREAT fit and so far, he really likes the coach - he's organized, knowledgeable, experienced, etc..

Thank you.

Sandman,

Point taken. Why not ask one of your HSBBWeb buddies to post a question about the school for you? In that manner you are protected, and the community benefits? Just a thought.

I agree with BOF, and TRHit. In our experience, it just depends on how the D3 school operates. If you throw in a NESCAC school as twotex suggests, it changes considerably. NESCAC is much more structured as their conference has specific rules and academic bands in place across their member schools. So, identifying how your specific school operates will be key. Have a great weekend, and best of luck. We're very excited for you.

Sandman,

Sounds good so far.

I was able to talk to a number of parents of players who went to the school my son is at prior to committing. I found them at HSBBW, DIII baseball, Rivals, team blogs, boosterclubs, looking at rosters getting names-states-locations, facebook, etc, and of course from our visit. My son talked to a number of players and followed up with phone calls to them, also with ones he did not spend much time with during the visit. He made sure he (we actually) read the rosters ahead of time and he made sure he spent time with players who were in his major. I talked to parents and players who had a positive experience and ones who did not. One of the assistant coaches played with a friend of my son’s (and part time pitching coach) in the minor leagues, so we talked with him about the coach. Since you are going on the visit you can formulate all of your questions and ask the head coach directly, do not be shy or afraid to ask anything that is on your mind. I also found names of students from our area who went to the school and participated in other sports, so I talked to a basketball player, as well as some kids of friends of friends who just went to the school who did not play sports. It is particularly good your wife is going as she is going to focus a lot on the living conditions that us guys sometimes miss. They are often the voice of reason.

The end result was we had the most information we could reasonably get prior to deciding. I really left no stone unturned. Consequently, knock on wood, it has been more or less what my son expected it would be….other than it is harder academically than he thought it would be and there is more baseball talent than he thought.

I just read your last post, by all means ask general questions about the school that is how you will find some parents +/- on the program. I found it particularly important to talk to those who did not have a perfect experience as you get a better perspective. If you are afraid have one of your HSBBW friends post the question on the school.

In my opinion Sandman, what you have written seems to be an indication that this is "a" right school, if not 'the' right school. With 50% in merit it answers the financial question. Having his major, assuming the school has a good reputation with that major, answers the education question. Only your guy can answer the social question, probably after his overnight visit. Top 10 ranking with recent appearance at CWS and supportive of your son? Answers the baseball question.

I'm convinced that once you answer these there is not a lot more you can do to get assurance of being on the roster. From what I've seen, many of these schools carry as many as 40 players on their 'roster' (some have JV teams as well!) and a representation by the coach that your guy has what it takes to get on that roster is about the best you're going to get.

As to making the 25 man travel roster that's a whole other hill of beans; one that probably should not be answered until the coach sees what he has and who can beat out who. As your guy progresses, he will continue to compete against the new guys. It's as it should be.

So the question of coach integrity is the only other open question. For this I would say that you should be able to track down alumni and competing coaches to help answer that question.

Thanks all. You're right RedSoxFan, it seems that the only question left is "How good is the coach's word?". So in the interest of learning more about that:

Son will speak with current players on overnight visit this weekend about over-recruiting, progression to making the travel team, playing time, roster turnover, etc.. Specifically interested in others who were offered verbal commitments and how that panned out, as well as if they know how many others who showed up at fall tryouts had received the same or similar verbal committments.

Will also get contact info for players for further questions that might arise. (He's done this before and has become Facebook friends with several of the team members after the visit).

Will review the past few years' rosters to find players who did not return for subsequent years and attempt to find them on Facebook to learn why.

Next week (after our visit), I will enlist a fellow-hsbaseballweb member's help to post a question for us about the specific school, looking for any and all feedback - good or bad. (Volunteer via PM, if you're inclined; thanks. )

Thanks again to all. This is very exciting and our fingers are crossed.

Wondering my son was told at a D111 he was a "preffered recruit" the said he had a roster spot but playing time is earned--sounds fair enough---wondering though they have like 50 kids on there roster--they play a 20+ game jv schedule so they say they use alot of pitching (my son is a rhp). The head coach is in the state hall of fame and all the coaches came across very sincere. They have a state of the art workout area--one of the best fields in the state-- and have one of the top programs in state for my sons major. My son is an excellent student--. Is it fairly normal to have a roster this big and do they recruit kids also visa versa they want them for acedemics as much as baseball?---sorry rambled a bit.

Baseball Dad 46

Is it fairly normal to have a roster this big and do they recruit kids also visa versa they want them for acedemics as much as baseball?

You need to look at the team rosters for the past few years. You will be able to answer that question yourself. From my experience it is not uncommon to see a 40+ man roster. Equally important is to look at the team statistics for the same years that you look at rosters. You will see a definitive relationship every year.

There is many a school that uses athletics to enhance school recuiting. The number of young men that go to and a graduate from college is decreasing. Strategically there are schools that use athletics to attract qualified male students.

Thank you

FWIW to anybody on here, i was recruited exclusively by DIII High academic schools this past year (Freshman this year) and basically every school promised solely a roster spot for 1 year. Promises on playing-time and your impact on the team are simply hot-air because there is no way any coach can fully guarantee those.

If you guys have any questions about the dIII process or any schools, I'd be more than happy to answer them for y'all.

Quick update:

Official visit went well. Son enjoyed his stay and hanging with the team. Likes the campus. We got to see the football team in their conference championship.

My wife and I got a good read and feeling on the head coach. Seems like an honest, upfront genuine guy. Said he was planning to bring in 3 middle infielders, but don't hold it against him if there's a 4th come next fall. When pressed for where our son is on the current list of 3, he was honest and told us "3rd" - which is better than not on the list at all.

Bottom line is that he offered our son a spot on the roster. We politely pushed for clarification and were promised that it wasn't just a fall tryout, or just a fall roster spot; it's a full one-year spot, which obviously includes the Spring team. Their roster is usually in the low-30s, but could swell a few with their recent CWS appearance and repeated conference championships.

But at this point, that's pretty much all we can ask for. We promised coach we'd get son's app in within a few weeks, so that we can all bring this to closure by end of calendar year.

Coach called son this past Sunday evening again, just to see if he'd started the app, how his basketball season prep is going, what he's doing for Thanksgiving. Reminded me of JH's story about getting a phone call every Sunday night and how that made him feel.

Son is on cloud 9!

Thanks to all for your help. We'll know soon how much merit aid he'll get and if this is doable financially. As cliche as it might sound, it really IS about finding the perfect fit for YOUR son. We realize that the road ahead will have its bumps too and that playing time will be earned - maybe freshman year, maybe sophomore.

Having been on this site since he was about 9 years old, it's been a long journey learning about the recruiting process. But we couldn't be happier just to see him have the opportunity to play at the next level.