Dallas Morning News - Pitching

The sky will fall tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by cutter1:
Not sure if all of you saw this - but thought it was a good article. My son pitches, and I always have been a proponent of watching the number of pitches when kids are young.

It's lines like this...

At 10 years old, Phillip Clinard pitched in five games over four days at a youth baseball tournament.

...that make me believe that tournaments and travel ball, and the overuse that can result, are a bigger problem than curveballs.

The pros wait 5 days between starts. Why don't the same rules apply to kids?

The problem has little to do with pitch count.

It has EVERYTHING to do with arms not in shape.

As a kid I bet I threw and minimum of 100 MAX throws everyday in the sandlot. Then pitched at 5:00p.....two times per week.

Then played in the sandlot after the game and cried when I had to go home at dark.

Finally hurt my arm diving for a pop up after college.

Ask DiceK aobut his throwing workout and it's regularity. Ask Maddux and Glavine and Smoltz about the Braves throwing workout and what they do the day after they throw.

Pitch count is a worthless concern if they aren't throwing and throwing a lot and throwing hard between starts...........training the arm.

EVERY DAY.

50 pitches one day a week is too much without adequate arm training.

Cutter,

I have never seen a youth pitcher - pre-high school - with refined mechanics.

As a result - excessive pitches without proper mechanics will result in injury. Almost always. It may take a month - or it may take 2 years - but it will happen.

Overuse of the arm for pre high school - and many, many high school - pitchers - will usually end their baseball playing days early or put them on the operating table.

As things get more intense at younger levels - expect to see even greater rates of arm injury in the future. The trend is accelerating.

I agree with all!

My personal opinion is poor mechanics and too many games.

I have heard parents brag about 80 games in a year........ at 10 or 12

Who is playing ball? The child or parent in the stands?

I am with Chamelion . Lack of conditioning of the arm is the #1 reason arm injurys occure plus add in all the other things people mention.
If you don't throw a lot you will likely open yourself up to injury.
I also think that most parents don't have a clue about what it takes to prepare for pitching. I also agree they should look at the workout of these great pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I am with Chamelion . Lack of conditioning of the arm is the #1 reason arm injurys occure plus add in all the other things people mention.
If you don't throw a lot you will likely open yourself up to injury.
I also think that most parents don't have a clue about what it takes to prepare for pitching. I also agree they should look at the workout of these great pitchers.

Guys, your knowledge of adolescent physiology needs some work.

When you are talking about kids younger than 16 or 17, you are generally talking about people with open growth plates.

That means that conditioning of the arm will not do any good.

Instead, building up the muscles of the arm will only increase the likelihood that you will pull the bone apart at the growth plate. The only way to reduce the injury risk of kids who are younger than 16 or 17, and who have open growth plates, is to limit how much they throw.

I think Chameleon was talking about kids younger than 16 or 17.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
I think Chameleon was talking about kids younger than 16 or 17.

Exactly.

Following his advice won't make things better, and may make things worse.

Also, the kid in the quote I referenced was 10. He almost certainly has open growth plates, which means that overuse is a real problem.

painguy

Is that why those of us who threw everyday, all day, as kids never had arm problems/


You are amazing to say the least---you have all the "right" answers---I sure hope you have gotten your son a "real" coach

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
I think Chameleon was talking about kids younger than 16 or 17.

Exactly.

Following his advice won't make things better, and may make things worse.

Also, the kid in the quote I referenced was 10. He almost certainly has open growth plates, which means that overuse is a real problem.

You missed the point (as usual).

Having kids throw MORE often (I'll go as far as saying in a less structured environment i.e the sandlot or just throwing rocks....or whatever) will keep their arm in much better shape than throwing less, and playing/pitching in games.

A kid who sits on his butt for 5 days, then throws 50 or 60 times in a game is a recipie for disaster.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Is that why those of us who threw everyday, all day, as kids never had arm problems

There is a difference between ball all day every day with your friends and playing in one game after another in a stress-filled tournament environment.

I have talked about this with Robert Sapolsky, who is at Stanford and is one of the top researchers when it comes to the human stress response, and he agrees that playing ball in a stress-filled tournament environment can increase the rate and degree with which kids damage their arms.

IOW, throwing the ball 200 times when it's just you and the guys is different than throwing the ball 200 times when it's done in a tournament setting.

quote:

Instead, building up the muscles of the arm will only increase the likelihood that you will pull the bone apart at the growth plate. The only way to reduce the injury risk of kids who are younger than 16 or 17, and who have open growth plates, is to limit how much they throw.

So now its Doctor Painguy.

Pain I am very aware of the growth plate issue and that is why my son did no weight until he was 16. My sons GP monitored his development. We had kids who could harly run because of GP problems but they grew out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Having kids throw MORE often (I'll go as far as saying in a less structured environment i.e the sandlot or just throwing rocks....or whatever) will keep their arm in much better shape than throwing less, and playing/pitching in games.

You missed the point.

There are limits (e.g. diminishing returns) to how much this kind of casual throwing can help due to the physiology of kids younger than 16 or 17.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
A kid who sits on his butt for 5 days, then throws 50 or 60 times in a game is a recipie for disaster.

I agree.

But you have to strike a balance.

painguy

If you think we went on the field not wanting to win you are out of your mind and shows how little you know--- the winner kept the field for the next game---apparently you are too young to know the great joys of youth baseball as it used to be---to say there was no stress is stupid because we never wanted to lose ---sure we did not have parents pushing us but we were pushing ourselves

quote:

There are limits (e.g. diminishing returns) to how much this kind of casual throwing can help due to the physiology of kids younger than 16 or 17.

Have you researched this or is that another conlusion while research is ongoing ?
I don't think Pain has played any sports. There is a clinical aura about him.

Bobble

I think we are on the same page

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
sure we did not have parents pushing us but we were pushing ourselves

That's an important difference.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Have you researched this or is that another conlusion while research is ongoing?

This is a fact that I have researched extensively.

Read any journal article about growth plate injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I don't think Pain has played any sports. There is a clinical aura about him.

As I have explained, I permanently damaged my arm while playing baseball when I was a kid.

In most Pitching Instruction books I've read, and in most conversations I've had with scouts in regards to pitching the most common thread is "The only way to become a Pitcher is to be able to throw everyday"

Since the days of the Sandlot are gone, and I'm quite sure as TR said the days in the Sandlot were stress filled. I asked my Dad that question and he said it was bragging rights and the fact that no team wanted to give up the diamond.

If kids these days played Half as much ball as their parents did I (and I apologize for using this word TR, I know how you don't like it) think we'd see a huge decrease in the amount of arm injuries. Kids these days just don't throw enough on a regular basis . Heck I'll admit that I didn't throw enough as a kid, the only times I threw were practices, games and in the backyard with my Dad during the spring, summer and fall. Do I think it had something to do with my injury personally yes I do.

My son is 16; he pitches once a week in a game, and usually twice a week from a mound in my yard. It never fails that when he pitches in a game he gets sore. He is never sore after pitching in the yard. It is not a pitch count thing either - it is an intensity thing. There is a difference between pitching in game and throwing with the boys "out front."

Game intensity pitching puts much more stress on the arm - do this often enough without sufficient rest, and you will see an injury. There is little doubt that recent interest in year round travel ball is a contributer to the problem. I do agree that part of the problem is that kids are not in the kind of shape it takes to throw as often as they are being asked. This is a coaching problem - it is a law on my son's HS team that pitchers will run, and run a lot. 30 minute run day after pitching in a game. 10-15 poles daily or sprints every other day.

BTW, a parent is the ultimate decider of how often a kid pitches, period. I coach my son on a travel team, but I would not think twice about telling his HS coach that he cannot pitch today - or at least have my son tell him. In fact, it happened recently. If a parent of one of my kids on my travel team told me their son's arm needed a break I would follow their desire.

quote:

As I have explained, I permanently damaged my arm while playing baseball when I was a kid

Were you theorizing back then.

When I was a kid I took my bat ,ball and glove to school every day and could not get enough. In HS it became more about football,Track and basket ball. I continued to pitch hard ball and fast ball. Between discus . javelin and all the other sports I never even felt a twing of arm soreness.
We had no formal training and I would fall under the term over use.

quote:

That means that conditioning of the arm will not do any good.

Complete nonsense.....as usual.

Hey guys, lets don't start throwing until we're serious.....How about at 18?

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

That means that conditioning of the arm will not do any good.

Complete nonsense.....as usual.

Hey guys, lets don't start throwing until we're serious.....How about at 18?

Of course you can throw, but it must be in moderation until you are 16 or 17.

Please cite a study that says something to the contrary.

quote:

Please cite a study that says something to the contrary.

ROFLMAO.

Show me your "Scout Card".

Chamelon

I am not sure anyone is saying to NOT throw. It all relates to how many pitches in game, and how often.

What is ROFLMAO? I am not sure he needs a scout card. Look at the increase in number of tommy john surgeries - that should do it?

Maybe I misunderstand your point?

quote:

Look at the increase in number of tommy john surgeries - that should do it?

TJ's keep increasing while pitchers choker chain gets pulled tighter and tighter.... Poorly conditioned arms to go along with awful cookie cutter deliveries...

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
ROFLMAO.

First, it's ROTFLMAO. Note the missing "T".

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:Show me your "Scout Card".

Here you go...

Thanks Chris.....we did use your methods for these picks!!!!!!!!

thepainguy,

Your theories are starting to annoy me. Are you sure you're not related to XFactor? You know, the guy who says not to long-toss just throw off a mound? I know you're not saying exactly that but you're similar in that you believe you must be right when everyone else points out you're wrong.

My son has been long-tossing 5-6x week since age 12. He's now 17 and has committed to pitch for Washington State. I just got off the phone with my friend five minutes before I logged on here to see your post. His kid and mine at age 12 were on the same team and I'd guess his kid was 3-4 MPH faster then. As irony would have it, he expressed to me that he was worried that his pitcher-son (same age as my son) is not progressing velocity-wise (he's now 3-4 MPH slower).

I told him, "Well, I've been telling you all these years to have your kid long-toss and throw more!"

Guys like you are like atheists who deny the existence of God, pointing out that believers cannot prove God exists. Yet, doesn't it seem odd that 95% of people believe God does exist?

Look, baseball is a very competitive game. If you do not throw, by the time you are in high school ball you will be way behind everyone else. Save your arm for what, then? You won't pitch anyway! My kid has been long-tossing all these years and has never had an arm problem. The kids I can think of with arm problems are the ones who did not throw enough!

I personally believe strict, single-game pitch-count limits should be tossed out the window. Instead, we should be more concerned about a kid getting adequate rest after a high pitch-count game and avoid back-to-back high pitch-count games.

But not throw a lot? Phewwy!

bum

quote:

I personally believe strict, single-game pitch-count limits should be tossed out the window. Instead, we should be more concerned about a kid getting adequate rest after a high pitch-count game and avoid back-to-back high pitch-count games.

totally agree...well said.

I am a player, I'll tell everyone that doesn't already know me from my normal posting area that right now. Having said that, I'm admitting to not having all the answers. I started pitching when I was 6... yes 6 is when I threw my first real game pitch. When I was 8 I was the best pitcher on my 12 year old LL team (ok, the LL where I'm from was horrrible, don't worry about that). I threw almost every day with my dad whether it be for 5 minutes or 30minutes. First shoulder problem when I was 8. However, this issue was caused by a natural born condition where I have a "loose" shoulder-essentially loose ligaments. I was out 3 months, throwing again, and as good as new (had some exercises to do).

Fast forward 2 years, a good amount of pitching lessons later, first year or two of select, and I had elbow problems. Although it likely was a mechanical thing, the continuous throwing obviously didn't help. Rehab, 3 months, exercises, etc... good as new.

Fast forward 5 years... my "loose" shoulder came back basically. This was caused by years of "overuse"/insufficient rest and more. Insufficient rest wasn't pitching on 2 days rest a lot... it was pitching 80+ pitches and then throwing from SS or 3B, or warming up 3 times a game, end up throwing one inning, then starting a game the next day. All this stuff contributed.

To be honest, I've left out a lot, and generalized/simplified a lot... I agree with a lot of what both parties are saying. I think kids should throw more, but having said that, when pitching I think a good/smart amount of rest should be given... sitting out the rest of that game. I brought up a lot of problems which contribute... and growth plates was one of them. I was throwing tons when my growth plates were growing the most (changing the most?... not sure for the correct term). With the repeated stress on my shoulder from pitching and SS, my shoulder blade began to literally drop in my back and is still to this day angled the wrong way. Main thing was lack of rest... so the question is, how do we balance rest with the need to throw consistently. I know one thing, if I'm fortunate enough to have a baseball loving son, I will play catch with him every day, and won't let him pitch until he's 12 or 13. There are other things I mentioned that I failed to re-state. These are my personal experiences... and I'm not claiming that anyone is wrong or right, or that I'm right. I will say that this is a subject that no one can do enough reading on and research. A lot of ya'll present good arguments going against "pain", but it would still be wise of you to read up on literature and any information you could find discussing the issue.

Thank you for reading my rambles.

Dtiger,

Well put, well put. You made some excellent points. Playing catch every day, not pitching until 12.. I'm with you on that. My son really didn't even pitch but a few innings until age 12. Most guys that were studs at 12 that I can think of are not even pitching now.

And I'm glad he didn't because he got the mechanical (pitching) training at just the right time, when he was old enough to listen and follow the advise and young enough to have time to progress.

I'm not a big anti-"Pain" guy. I think he adds a lot to the forums and sometimes it seems like he is ganged-up on. He is not a scout, a doctor, or a Division I baseball coach, but that hardly matters if (sometimes) he is correct. But in this case.. only throwing in "moderation"??.. I just don't buy that.

P.S., I'm very sure you will have a baseball-loving son, and I'm sure you'll be a great dad, too. (Don't rush that one, either! )

Nobody plays catch anymore

quote:

my "loose" shoulder came back basically. This was caused by years of "overuse"/insufficient rest and more.

This tells me you have not had proper conditioning. The shoulder dropping also adds to that opinion.
You needed a proper program of execises to build your shoulder up and attain a balanced well conditioned body.
I always had my son checked and shoulder condition was a big part of this.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
Here you go...

Thanks Chris.....we did use your methods for these picks!!!!!!!!

No, here you go...

Thanks Cameleon.....you are SO good.

Carmon

I have about 30 different exercises which I routinely do... there is a fancy name for them. Yes my shoulder was out of shape for the workload I was being put under... but a very well respected physical therapist told me this would've happened to almost anybody at this age. He brought up that while the body is changing the most (maturing), it becomes (I don't want to say this because it gives a wrong connotation, but I'm tired and can't say a better word right now) easier to hurt the muscles and growth plates if proper rest was not given. He said my exercises helped tremendously, and prevented the injury from happening in 2 years (occurred in 5 since my last arm injury and 7 since my last shoulder injury). I learned a few more things I should be doing- stretching after I throw and before I ice (I'd ice and then stretch when I was cold sometimes-not often... but obviously it wasn't smart.... this was more in my 11-13 range). I've been fine ever since, although I can always "feel" if I haven't done my exercises enough or need some more rest... I'm still a workhorse and that may be dumb.

Our guys don't start pitching until 9-10. They havea max of 4 innings until 15yo.
I watc`hed a mosiquito game last night and I was pleased to see how well their mechanics were. The coaching was great and treated the players with respect. It was very competetive but the kids were given encouragement and not put down when they failed. I really enjoyed the game. (-10 year olds throwing with great control and good velocity. Fundamentaly they played very well. I have seen many midget games and the talent was not as good. I hope we are seeing a new crop of talented ballplayers coming up through the ranks.
After that game I went and watched a senior elite COBA game and it was very exciting as well. Kots of college guys home for the summer. Players ranged from 20-32yo and they still got the passion.
Dtiger I think that you started way too young. My son and most others here played fast ball or machine pitch at that age.
My son just turned 21 and has never had an injury or sore arm and he played for a few years on 4 teams during a season.

I will agree with you there. I skipped machine pitch and was with 10 year olds when I was 6. It wasn't smart, but at the time we didn't know.

We probably would have made mistakes but I credit the local organization and the Ontario Baseball Assoc. for setting rules and requiring coaches to have a certain level of certification.
I alos researched the best books I could find on pitching and got the best instruction I could find. There are good books that will help. My daughters boy friend also was a high level pitcher until he injured his knee batting.
My son learned CB at 9-10 and was a junk ball pitcher from day 1. He still relies on his CB. He threw a 2 games in College Summer ball and they called FB after FB and he got ripped. The coach and catcher didn't know him. He talked to the coach and now he is 75% CB and back to his game. He maxes at 85mph with anice tail on it but good hitters will figure it out.