Dan Haren

quote:

Originally posted by FlippJ:
I've seen Oakland A's pitcher Dan Haren mentioned a few times here lately.

Here is a clip of him pitching from back in 2005...



Haren is having a very good season for Oakland. Any thoughts on his delivery?

I love Dan Haren's mechanics and rue the day my Cardinals traded him to the stupid (like a fox) A's. How I wish they had traded Anthony Reyes instead.

Dan Haren's hip/shoulder separation is tremendous and his arm action reminds me of Greg Maddux.

The book is still open on Haren---to make judgements on 2 or 3 years is not logical or realistic

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
The book is still open on Haren---to make judgements on 2 or 3 years is not logical or realistic[/QU


What? If he has good mechanics or not? Couldn't a knowledgeable person do that the first time they saw them throw???

micmeister


WHAT !!!!! they said the same thing about Mark Prior and where is he now

If we are going to use pictures as teaching tools use pictures of guys who have been around a bit--not guys with 2 or 3 years experience

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
micmeister


WHAT !!!!! they said the same thing about Mark Prior and where is he now

If we are going to use pictures as teaching tools use pictures of guys who have been around a bit--not guys with 2 or 3 years experience

So, what criteria would you use to draft a player in the first place?

Painguy,

I know you have been studying mechanics for a while now and I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base. Is this something that can cause injury or that you have looked at before?

micmeister


I am not a scout nor have I ever claimed to be---let you buddy painguy tell you how it works--he has all the answers


I do know what I want to see on our team

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
micmeister


I am not a scout nor have I ever claimed to be---let you buddy painguy tell you how it works--he has all the answers


I do know what I want to see on our team

I'm just trying to learn. I don't know you or thepainguy. I read the posts and comment on them if I have a hankering to. I can tell by reading the posts that many don't agree with thepainguy and I guess you are one of them. I can tell though, that thepainguy is doing research to figure out what is causing all of the pitching injuries and that to me is noble. If what he is doing can prevent even one injury it is worth while and maybe even if it doesn't because just the pursuit is worthy in itself. Now, back to my question to you.
What is it that you look for in a pitcher? Are you a College, High School, or Travel ball Coach?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The book is still open on Haren---to make judgements on 2 or 3 years is not logical or realistic

2 or 3 years starting when? How many years did this pitcher pitch before getting to the bigs? Did not his mechanics figure into him getting to where he is now?

Also, are you saying that the only way to judge a pitcher's mechanics is to wait and see if he proves himself durable for a certain number of years? How many years would that be? Poor mechanics aren't the only cause of injuries. A pitcher can have good mechanics and still get injured so an injury occuring within that magic number of years doesn't necessarily imply poor mechanics.

All IMHO, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
WHAT !!!!! they said the same thing about Mark Prior and where is he now

So are you saying that Prior's problems are due to his mechanics? If so, can you explain why?

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
Painguy,

I know you have been studying mechanics for a while now and I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base. Is this something that can cause injury or that you have looked at before?

I'm not Painguy but...

If the posture change you've described causes the pitcher to open up early, then the energy transfer up the kinetic chain is reduced so there is less energy from the body available when the throwing arm goes and the pitcher will likely try to play catch-up using just the arm. The result is more stress being put on the arm. I feel the cumulative effects of this - especially if it were to be coupled with overuse - can lead to injury.

Do I think Haren exhibits this issue? Yes. But I don't know enough about him to know if it's been a problem for him or not. And I certainly can't predict if it will become a problem. Nonetheless, I would correct this in any of the youth pitchers I work with.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I do know what I want to see on our team

I'm thinking the OP would be happy to hear you compare what you know you want to see on your team with what you see in Haren's mechanics. I'd like to hear that as well. So throw it out there and lets discuss. That's how we all learn from each other. And THAT is what these forums are for, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I do know what I want to see on our team

I'm thinking the OP would be happy to hear you compare what you know you want to see on your team with what you see in Haren's mechanics. I'd like to hear that as well. So throw it out there and lets discuss. That how we all learn from each other. And THAT is what these forums are for, right?

Roger, you just became my hero!

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base.

This head movement and lean is critcial to the throwing process. THAT move IS throwing.

The bow/arch/bow of the spine is the underlying mechanics that allows one to throw the ball hard.

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.



If thepainguy was really interested in injury he would investigate which guys don't do this very well. If you don't do this your arm has no rotational deceleration path. If you don't do this your arm goes linear toward the plate. That linear move, out of the body's rotational plane, can really stress the arm. See Mark Prior.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
WHAT !!!!! they said the same thing about Mark Prior and where is he now

So are you saying that Prior's problems are due to his mechanics? If so, can you explain why?

IMO it is quite clear he has mechanical problems.

Not necessarily the one thepainguy points to, though.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
micmeister


I am not a scout nor have I ever claimed to be---let you buddy painguy tell you how it works--he has all the answers


I do know what I want to see on our team

"This comes from no study or science right now."

Only a thought.

I would like to know at what age most or the injury prone pitchers stated pitching?

What age the solid pitchers started pitching?

I would not be surprised to learn that most guys who were pitching since 7-8 years old are the guys that breakdown now. Or kids who threw much harder then what would be considered average for their age.

Or that guys that really didn't start pitching until 12-13 years old are the guys that are usually more healthy so to speak.

My thought is that due to bone remodeling from continued stress to growth plates and joints in general there is more chance of being injured as a adult due to altered biomechanics.

This is only a thought mind you. I'm not stating this is the reason for increased injury.



I'm just trying to learn. I don't know you or thepainguy. I read the posts and comment on them if I have a hankering to. I can tell by reading the posts that many don't agree with thepainguy and I guess you are one of them. I can tell though, that thepainguy is doing research to figure out what is causing all of the pitching injuries and that to me is noble. If what he is doing can prevent even one injury it is worth while and maybe even if it doesn't because just the pursuit is worthy in itself. Now, back to my question to you.
What is it that you look for in a pitcher? Are you a College, High School, or Travel ball Coach?

Here's a clip of Prior from 2003...



I think this was "before" all of his injuries.

Jason

RT

I did not say there was anything with Harens mechanics---what I did say, if your reread my post, was that I do not think it is a good idea to use a young pitcher as an example---use the guys with longevity and success as in last nites duel between Glavine and Smoltz


Yes we have a travel team program with a great coaching staff

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base.

This head movement and lean is critcial to the throwing process. THAT move IS throwing.

The bow/arch/bow of the spine is the underlying mechanics that allows one to throw the ball hard.

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.

In what can only be a sign of the apocalypse, I pretty much agree with this.

Not exactly for the reasons stated, but we end up at the same place.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
WHAT !!!!! they said the same thing about Mark Prior and where is he now

So are you saying that Prior's problems are due to his mechanics? If so, can you explain why?

Given that this horse has already been beaten to a pulp, all I'll say is that Prior's arm action, and inparticular his pronounced Inverted W, is unlike the arm action of HOFers like...

- Maddux
- Glavine
- Ryan
- Clemens
- Koufax
- Seaver

I find that more interesting, and intriguing, than any supposed overuse.

Also, if I'm right then Anthony Reyes will have very similar problems given that his mechanics, and in particular his arm action, are pretty much identical (if not worse). First elbow problems and then shoulder problems if the pattern holds.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base.

This head movement and lean is critcial to the throwing process. THAT move IS throwing.

The bow/arch/bow of the spine is the underlying mechanics that allows one to throw the ball hard.

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.

In what can only be a sign of the apocalypse, I pretty much agree with this.

Not exactly for the reasons stated, but we end up at the same place.

Okay, I'm not sure who this is in this clip, but this is what I'm talking about. I know you have to do it once you've started to pull your backside over and your arm is almost at release, but this guy does it way before Prior does in the clip above. What I want to know, is if the guy in this clip is putting more stress on some body part than someone with Prior's type of motion in this clip? It looks like it would put more of a strain on the lower back and the front of the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base.

This head movement and lean is critcial to the throwing process. THAT move IS throwing.

The bow/arch/bow of the spine is the underlying mechanics that allows one to throw the ball hard.

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.

In what can only be a sign of the apocalypse, I pretty much agree with this.

Not exactly for the reasons stated, but we end up at the same place.

Okay, I'm not sure who this is in this clip, but this is what I'm talking about. I know you have to do it once you've started to pull your backside over and your arm is almost at release, but this guy does it way before Prior does in the clip above. What I want to know, is if the guy in this clip is putting more stress on some body part than someone with Prior's type of motion in this clip? It looks like it would put more of a strain on the lower back and the front of the shoulder.

First, this is Mussina in the clip.

Second, I think this is less stressful than what Mark Prior does rather than more stressful. Also, IMO the evidence suggests that the stress on the front shoulder and lower back are not as much of an issue as the stress that is placed on the Pitching Arm Side (aka PAS) shoulder.

I would argue that the key difference between this clip and the clip of Prior is the arm action. Notice that Mussina's PAS elbow never gets above the level of his shoulders.

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.


Chameleon,

So are you saying that it is safer to arch your back and throw hard or that the only way you can throw hard is to arch your back? Just trying to learn.

Also, IMO the evidence suggests that the stress on the front shoulder and lower back are not as much of an issue as the stress that is placed on the Pitching Arm Side (aka PAS) shoulder.


Painguy,


I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make that clear. I meant the front of the throwing shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.


Chameleon,

So are you saying that it is safer to arch your back and throw hard or that the only way you can throw hard is to arch your back? Just trying to learn.

Is it maybe the camera angle? In the clip that someone posted on here of Randy Johnson, it looks like he is leaning forward. I know his head moves to the side at the last, but it doesn't look like he is leaning back to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
This head movement and lean is critcial to the throwing process. THAT move IS throwing.

So there are no hard throwers that don't do this?

quote:

The bow/arch/bow is what moves the head and shoulders so there is a path for the arm....a path that is in alignment with the body.

This path you're talking about sounds like a more over-the-top and linear (side-to-side) path. A path that is in line with the body sounds linear to me. But below, you talk about a rotational deceleration path. Can you clarify this for me.

quote:

If the painguy was really interested in injury he would investigate which guys don't do this very well. If you don't do this your arm has no rotational deceleration path. If you don't do this your arm goes linear toward the plate. That linear move, out of the body's rotational plane, can really stress the arm. See Mark Prior.

I can understand the arm rotating in a different plane than other parts of the body but I guess I'm having trouble understanding this linear path thing. Even if one doesn't lean to clear a path for the arm, the shoulders are still rotating around the spine and the arm is still rotating around the body. So where is this linear path?

It's clear as can be.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
The book is still open on Haren---to make judgements on 2 or 3 years is not logical or realistic[/QU

What? If he has good mechanics or not? Couldn't a knowledgeable person do that the first time they saw them throw???

I think so.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The book is still open on Haren---to make judgements on 2 or 3 years is not logical or realistic

The thing is that IMO mechanics are either good or they are bad, and if someone has good mechanics (and timing) that should be obvious from day one.

I don't think the people who said that Mark Prior had perfect mechanics have studied the subject in the correct manner.

painguy


What makes you think you know more about the mechanics than others before you ?

Just because you read books and the internet?

We can all develop theories but that does not make them correct and something to follow

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What makes you think you know more about the mechanics than others before you ?

Just because you read books and the internet?

We can all develop theories but that does not make them correct and something to follow

Nothing.

I just think that I'm studying the subject differently, and I think that may lead to different results.

First, let's talk about Tom House and Mark Prior. From what I understand, and from what has been written about in the press, House worked with Prior for a number of years before prior made it to the ML level. The problem with House's pronouncement that Prior had perfect mechanics is that House is obviously biased since he designed those mechanics. I also think that while Prior's mechanics may have been perfect in terms of velocity production (although that's debatable since Prior didn't thrower harder than has ever been recorded), what House taught Prior to do did not take into account the physiology of the body. As a result, Prior was taught to do things that his body couldn't handle.

Second, let's talk about my method. First, I haven't worked with any ML pitchers, so I'm not biased in that respect. What I'm doing is comparing two groups of pitchers...

1. Pitchers who had long, largely injury-free careers (e.g. Greg Maddux).

2. Pitchers who had short, injury-plagued careers (e.g. Mark Prior).

I am looking at the mechanics of pitchers in the two groups looking for significant similarities and significant differences. It turns out that I think I have detected a number of differences between the two groups when it comes to things like arm action.

Third, if you look at the mechanics of Dan Haren (e.g. arm action), I believe that his mechanics look more like Greg Maddux's than Mark Prior's.

Therefore, I think that Dan Haren should have a longer than average career.

painguy

Follow me here if you will---the reason I question you is because I worry about young kids taking wrong info and trying to go forward from there---all too many believe what they read on the internet as gospel and so do many parents

You keep saying this and that but your background is severely limited--- you keep using the term "I think"---hey "I think" too but I have pitching coaches on the staff to do the work and instruction because they know while I may think.

I am truly tired of what I term "Cyberspace Gurus" who just send out info based on what they think !!!!

And most never played the game beyond LL if they got that far---do not take this as a personal attack because it isnt---you simple fall into that group of "cyberspace cowboys" who profess to have the answers but their answers are based on what?-__WHAT THEY THINK !!!!!

TR,

I have to “respectfully” disagree with you on this one. “I think”, what people “think” can be important. Guess I don’t see the possible danger to young players involved in TPG’s study.

There appears to be a problem (too many arm injuries) especially in young pitchers. Many have claimed different reasons for all the increase in injuries. Everything from cookie cutter mechanics, to pitch counts, to higher velocity, to too many curve balls, to bad conditioning, to bad coaches, to showcases and tournaments, to a lot of other things.

While I do not agree with everything TPG talks about, I do believe there is at least a chance that I am wrong and he is right about this stuff. For sure he has spent many more hours studying this than I have. And whether he is right or wrong in the end, it’s a well worthwhile subject to study. I hope his research ends up helping. And if it doesn’t, there will be more things to cross off the list.

Besides, if TPG or anyone else wants to talk about their theories it doesn’t stop anyone from disagreeing with those theories. To me these posts involving hitting, pitching, etc. that cause people to think are good for the game of baseball. It’s when we quit thinking and learning that we have the biggest problem. TPG has already stated that his theories are controversial and open for debate. I happen to know one MLB pitching coach in the Northeast who we plan to work with in an effort to find out more about the cause of arm injuries. He is absolutely obsessed with the topic and is doing something about it.

That said, my suggestion to Chris! Do not post any video clips where you personally are demonstrating the art of pitching.

PG

Great discussion

I think we are disagreeing but still on the same page in our thinking especially when you say you will be working with "one MLB pitching coach" who is concerned about arm injuries---that is the key--the man has a background in the game--he is not just a buiness man with a passion

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Follow me here if you will---the reason I question you is because I worry about young kids taking wrong info and trying to go forward from there---all too many believe what they read on the internet as gospel and so do many parents

You keep saying this and that but your background is severely limited--- you keep using the term "I think"---hey "I think" too but I have pitching coaches on the staff to do the work and instruction because they know while I may think.

I am truly tired of what I term "Cyberspace Gurus" who just send out info based on what they think !!!!

And most never played the game beyond LL if they got that far---do not take this as a personal attack because it isnt---you simple fall into that group of "cyberspace cowboys" who profess to have the answers but their answers are based on what?-__WHAT THEY THINK !!!!!

I know that you have a problem with with I say simply because of who I am (or who you think I am not), but please give me an example of something I said that is wrong or misleading.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I know you have been studying mechanics for a while now and I've often wondered about these guys that lean their head and shoulders back towards first base (RHP) and then they end up falling off dramatically towards first base. Some of them even end up with their feet facing first base. Is this something that can cause injury or that you have looked at before?

I once came across a study that suggested that leaning backwards at the balance point was correlated with a reduced risk of arm problems.

Also, I tend to like it when guys finish facing 1B because it increases the distance over which their hips turn and which the arm decelerates (both of which are good things).

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:...I tend to like it when guys finish facing 1B because it increases the distance over which their hips turn and which the arm decelerates (both of which are good things).

...but you've stated before that you like Maddux's finish position and you like pitchers to "land in a good fielding position". This pic you posted of Maddux doesn't look like he's "...facing 1B..." to me.

There in lies the problem with painguy---one post saysone thing---the next post says another--


Hey pain guy does that answer your question to me???

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:...I tend to like it when guys finish facing 1B because it increases the distance over which their hips turn and which the arm decelerates (both of which are good things).

...but you've stated before that you like Maddux's finish position and you like pitchers to "land in a good fielding position". This pic you posted of Maddux doesn't look like he's "...facing 1B..." to me.

The thing to notice in the photo above of Maddux is that his shoulders have rotated significantly such that they are close to facing 1B while his hips are mostly square to the target.

As a result, I think he strikes a good balance. He maximizes his shoulder rotation but still finishes in a solid fielding position.

Also, many pitchers square up again so that they are facing the batter more after initially facing 1B.