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David Kopp's Pitching Mechanics

T thepainguy1,000+ posts
David Kopp, TPM's son, was one of the pitchers I looked at last year. With TPM's permission, I am going to post one of the videos of him that I saw so that people can see what great mechanics look like.



IMO, David has near-perfect mechanics.

He's a cross between Greg Maddux and Justin Verlander. As I understand it, this is to a large degree by design. The late, great bbscout had a lot of input into David's mechanics, and when in doubt told David and his parents to copy Greg Maddux.



I think that continues to be great advice.
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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Actually, let me change something with the above.

BBscout had said on several occassions the best pitching lesson you could give to your son was watching GM pitch. Go out and get some old games of Maddux pitching and that would be money well spent.
TPG asked me after he did this who taught him to pitch ending up looking similar to Maddux.

That's what essentially happened to my son. Never having one paid pitching lesson in his life, he actually learned what he has by spending hours upon hours watching Maddux pitch.

I have just recently sent this to Deemax, just to let him know how much I respected his dad and his opinions.
Last edited by TPM
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Don't see the similarity to Palmer either. Palmer had different arm action than most. Also see some differences between DK and this clip of Maddux. Most of the differences are in things that add velocity such as DK bracing against the stride leg and not keeping the shoulders so level the way Maddux does. DK also stays closed longer than Maddux which also can help velocity.
Last edited by CADad
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
Most of the differences are in things that add velocity such as DK bracing against the stride leg...


Maddux does brace his front knee (remember that he was throwing 93 at this age). He just uses more of a Seaver-style 90 degree brace. I wouldn't be surprised if Maddux was copying Seaver at this age. There are a lot of similarities between them.

I prefer DK's approach because it keeps his release point higher.

I love how DK firms up his Glove Side (GS) knee without every locking his GS knee. I think that may reduce the likelihood of knee and hip problems.

What DK does is also closer to what Maddux does now.
C cap_nMember
quote:
He's a cross between Greg Maddux and Justin Verlander. As I understand it, this is to a large degree by design. The late, great bbscout had a lot of input into David's mechanics, and when in doubt told David and his parents to copy Greg Maddux.

TPG-
You imply that DK's mechanics/pitching style looks similar G Maddux, and post a clip of a very young G Maddux that looks nothing like the G Maddux of late. What G Maddux is supposed to be the representative to compare to........early Maddux or later Maddux years?

Your post is misleading, and you did not quantify why you think DK's "near perfect" mechanics are near perfect.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I am a firm believer that there is no "one way" to throw as a pitcher. And I think that both DK's and Maddux's mechanics are excellent indeed. But I think the differences between the two clips above are marked.

Maddux lays on his back leg while drifting forward, that is, some of his weight is leaning towards first base. This is enhanced by the way he opens his left shoulder while his right arm is still back. DK stays much more on line to the plate, keeping his front shoulder closed and over his kick leg while the right arm swing to the "up L" position for power delivery.

Maddux's arm trails his front side when compared to DK, who gets his arm further out front.

Considering that DK is substantially taller than Maddux, Maddux uses a much longer stride (proportionately).

This results in DK throwing more downhill, while Maddux's delivery is flatter (though he more than makes up for that with his sinker movement). This effect is enhanced by DK's backward tilt during kick, while Maddux as noted above keeps his shoulders much flatter.

Generally I would consider Maddux, at least in the clip above, to be closer to a "drop and drive" style, while DK is closer to the "tall and fall" style.

There are also similarities, esp. in the excellent hand position at release, which is a key to maintaining command. But while I see qualitities worthy of emulation in both, to me these are very different pitchers. One is more in the power pitcher vein, the other a finesse guy.

BTW, TPG, you argued against the "down L/up L" approach in an earlier thread. Yet now you posit DK, a classic "down L/up L" guy, as an excellent example of mechanics. Being a "down L/up L" guy myself, I agree with your assessment of DK, but like BobbleheadDoll I'm having trouble seeing consistency in your philosophy.

Another interesting point: I'm not sure if DK is throwing a fastball in the clip above. From his hand position on reach back and flip up, I'd say there's a good chance this was a slider.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Emanski,

Hudson uses a roll-over release that enhances his emphasis on his tailing sinker. His arm does not come up as high. I do think if we had a clip you would see a lot of similarity up until release. At and after release, Hudson will roll off to the 1B side of the mound, though, whereas DK is more straight on.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
quote:
He's a cross between Greg Maddux and Justin Verlander. As I understand it, this is to a large degree by design. The late, great bbscout had a lot of input into David's mechanics, and when in doubt told David and his parents to copy Greg Maddux.

TPG-
You imply that DK's mechanics/pitching style looks similar G Maddux, and post a clip of a very young G Maddux that looks nothing like the G Maddux of late. What G Maddux is supposed to be the representative to compare to........early Maddux or later Maddux years?

Your post is misleading, and you did not quantify why you think DK's "near perfect" mechanics are near perfect.


This wasn't meant to be a p*ssing match with anyone.
DK began watching Maddux when they were very young (both).
Anyway, a lot of people have compared similarities of his mechaincs to Maddux, quite a few of his coaches. But you Dads here are so much better at this I suppose so will leave it at that.
He didn't look like he does now out of HS, needed a little tweeking for his own comfort.
But I think that you can see a strong resemblance, keep in mind no formal pitching lessons.

Don't beat TPG up over this. Thanks.
Last edited by TPM
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
What G Maddux is supposed to be the representative to compare to........early Maddux or later Maddux years?


While some (IMO relatively unimportant) things have changed in Maddux's delivery over the years, two things have stayed the same...

1. His arm action.
2. How he pronates his fastball and change-up.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
BTW, TPG, you argued against the "down L/up L" approach in an earlier thread. Yet now you posit DK, a classic "down L/up L" guy, as an excellent example of mechanics. Being a "down L/up L" guy myself, I agree with your assessment of DK, but like BobbleheadDoll I'm having trouble seeing consistency in your philosophy.


Then I don't know what you mean by Down L/Up L. Neither DK nor Maddux do this, which is what I call the Inverted L.




quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Another interesting point: I'm not sure if DK is throwing a fastball in the clip above. From his hand position on reach back and flip up, I'd say there's a good chance this was a slider.


I pause the clip at Frame 83, where you can see that DK's forearm is highly pronated, which indicates that he threw his tailing fastball.

Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by XV:
He actually threw a circle change. Look at frames 67 and 74.


Good catch.

A circle change is also thrown with significant pronation (e.g. "throw the circle"), which explains the arm-side run.


quote:
Originally posted by XV:


Check out the hip/shoulder separation in Frame 74. That is some of the best I've seen.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Lot of similarities to Rivera in this view, but if I remember correctly the arm slots are different. I believe DK has a lower arm slot which leads to the tail on the fastball. From that slot the pronation on the other hand typically adds sink rather than tail on the ball.

In this particular clip the significant pronation is probably there to get more sink and take something more off the change, although I'll admit I wouldn't have realized that it was a change unless XV pointed it out.

I'd also want to see another view on the leg action as it looks like Rivera sweeps the leg around a bit more, while DK is a bit more direct to the plate.

I think that the moral of the story is that even when a pitcher tries to model another pitcher's mechanics they usually end up doing what they need to do in order to maximize the effective use of their own physical abilities. It looks like DK has done a pretty good job of that.

Something else that maybe Deemax could address is that my guess is that although bbscout certainly liked Maddux's mechanics, when he said the best pitching lesson one could get was watching Maddux, he was probably referring more to his pitch selection and the mental part of pitching?
Last edited by CADad
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I also agree with XV, it's a circle change, good catch!

TPG, the photo of Ryan is a "down L", but he has his hand a bit higher than usual, which indicates a bit more tension in the arm at this point than you would really like to see.

DK does do the "down L" thing, but his shoulder tilt makes his arm look a bit straighter.

Maddux is a great guy to emulate if you're looking for a low stress, injury preventive delivery that maximizes spot control. And you can't beat Maddux when it comes to pitch selection and sequencing. But I wouldn't emulate Maddux if my goal was to increase velocity.

If you want velocity and control together, Clemens is the gold standard, with or without the Mitchell report charges.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
DK does do the "down L" thing, but his shoulder tilt makes his arm look a bit straighter.


No he doesn't, and that's why I like his mechanics.

After he "plunges" his hand to his PAS butt cheek (like Maddux), his PAS hand comes up pretty much at the same time as his PAS elbow. He certainly does not lead with his elbow out of the "plunged" position or break his hands with his elbows (which is good).

Please tell me in what frame you think DK comes to this position...



You can access each frame in the clip by incrementing the last digit in the URL. In this case, "83" means frame 83.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/I...212007_3B_001_83.jpg
Last edited by thepainguy
C cap_nMember
quote:
This wasn't meant to be a p*ssing match with anyone.


TPM-
TPG has to know how to p*$$ before he can be entered as a contestant Wink
As well, your son and his clip are in no way connected to, or influencing my response. My response has everything to do with keeping the integrity of this forum on a higher level.

XV-
Thanks for taking the time to put a meaningful clip together. A lot more work than TPG. BTW, I have always found syncing the pitchers at solid foot plant to be more informative for comparing efficiencies of throwing mechanics whether it’s the same pitcher or many.....great job, but you're one frame off Smile



TPG on the other hand makes a statement about DK and how much he resembles G. Maddux and posts a clip of G. Maddux that in no way shape or form looks like DK. Then TPG makes a statement how he likes the way DK pronates as if he's forcing a Marshal absolute, when in reality, most every throw that is made, the throwing arm pronates without forcing the pronation... must be a super secret to a $million delivery I missed somewhere. Then to top it off, TPG wants everyone to “Check out the hip/shoulder separation in Frame 74. That is some of the best I've seen” but what no one has picked up on is that TPG chose the incorrect frame to use as his example, because if he was really up on this pitching stuff, he would know that the important information to collect would be at solid foot plant.............but then again, this is why TPG is here. This is TPG’s technique of gaining information in order to post on his web site that he is good enough to analyze MLB pitchers’ mechanics. And it’s MO the reason the heavy hitters on this site won’t respond. They’ve spent way too much time and energy in the trenches learning what they know, (and probably forgotten) so as to not spoon-feed anyone with an agenda.

“I pause the clip at Frame 83, where you can see that DK's forearm is highly pronated, which indicates that he threw his tailing fastball.” …………….hahahahahahahaha

God speed to DK!


Last edited by cap_n
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
TPG on the other hand makes a statement about DK and how much he resembles G. Maddux and posts a clip of G. Maddux that in no way shape or form looks like DK.


As I said, their arm action is very similar, which is the most important thing.

Too many people get distracted by things that don't matter.


quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
Then TPG makes a statement how he likes the way DK pronates as if he's forcing a Marshal absolute, when in reality, most every throw that is made, the throwing arm pronates without forcing the pronation... must be a super secret to a $million delivery I missed somewhere.


This is a very common line about pronation that is simply wrong.

I don't think Marshall's right about everything, but I think he's right about pronation.


quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
Then to top it off, TPG wants everyone to “Check out the hip/shoulder separation in Frame 74. That is some of the best I've seen” but what no one has picked up on is that TPG chose the incorrect frame to use as his example, because if he was really up on this pitching stuff, he would know that the important information to collect would be at solid foot plant.............but then again, this is why TPG is here.














Check out the frames above and notice how DK's hips keep opening through and after foot plant.


quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
This is TPG’s technique of gaining information in order to post on his web site that he is good enough to analyze MLB pitchers’ mechanics. And it’s MO the reason the heavy hitters on this site won’t respond. They’ve spent way too much time and energy in the trenches learning what they know, (and probably forgotten) so as to not spoon-feed anyone with an agenda.


Say what you want.

TPM checked me out and I think I passed.


quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
“I pause the clip at Frame 83, where you can see that DK's forearm is highly pronated, which indicates that he threw his tailing fastball.” …………….hahahahahahahaha


The point was that he clearly isn't throwing a slider.

You see similar amounts of pronation with his fastball and a change-up. The big difference is the grip.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain curious how one would check you out?


TPM and I got to know each other during the 2007 ML draft. I was very interested in DK (he was my favorite guy in the 2007 draft) as soon as I saw this clip of him and told my contact that he should try to draft DK. I ended up letting TPM know exactly who I was working with and I assume she checked me out with the pro contacts she developed during the course of the draft.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
TPG-

You didn't answer the question...again, misleading, and an assumption at that.

quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain curious how one would check you out?
If anyone wanted to "check you out", who would that pro contact be?


As I have said repeatedly before, I am not allowed to tell just anyone.

That's not being misleading.

That's living up to the terms of my agreement.

If you want to know if I check out, ask TPM. PG may have also checked me out, but I'm not sure.
Last edited by thepainguy
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
The more video that I see of David the more he doesnt remind me of anyone. With that being said I think he has really solid mechanics, but having to find someone similar isnt necessary.

-I like how far he lets his hip lead down the mound with his shoulders remaining closed.

-I like his reverse rotation.(something that is not a fault unless your Mike Marshall)

-I like the fact that his delivery looks like it has some deception to go along with repeatability. Its difficult to get the two to go together

Maybe in 10 years we will compare an up and coming prospect to DK's delivery.
Last edited by deemax
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
TPG,

I answered your question in a post, but as I look back it appears to have disappeared. (Was I censored?)

As you suggested, I did check you out by reviewing your resume on www.chrisoleary.com

You have an interesting and diverse background. Unfortunately it is not very deep in the field of baseball. I'm all for intensive self-study and book learnin', but some experience in the trenches (above the 7th grade) would be helpful.

In particular, I now think I understand your concern with the "down L" position. It is, quite candidly, because you do not seem to understand how the rest of the baseball world uses the term. I suspect this is a result of your lack of practical baseball experience.

You say Maddux does not use the "down L" position, but in fact photos posted on your site show him in exactly that position, and the interview excerpt posted on your site explains exactly how he gets to that position. The standard usage of "down L" refers to when the pitcher's hand leaves the glove and reaches down and back. This precedes the back & up reach (on a fastball, ball actually faces second base) into the "up L" position.

What YOU are referring to as the "down L" is NOT what Maddux was talking about. What you are concerned about is when a pitcher reaches more straight down, then pulls the ball up into a c*o*c*k*e*d position with a path that has the hand traveling inside the elbow, closer to the body. This is the freeze frame you have of B.J. Ryan, above. Mark Prior is a severe example of this.

I would concur with you that this type of arm action increases tension and stress on both the elbow and shoulder and should be avoided. I also agree with your opinion that Prior's severe inward flip is a chief cause of his repeated breakdowns. But please be more careful in your use of terminology, to avoid confusing the issue.

BTW, on your site you also assail what you call the "inverted W" position. That is a term I've not heard before, but perhaps you can coin the phrase. I would point out, however, that the problem with the "inverted W" is the exact same problem you see in B.J. Ryan and Prior -- the use of the "inward flip" to the c*o*c*k*e*d position, as opposed to the more fluid "down, back & up" motion. It is not a separate issue at all.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
As you suggested, I did check you out by reviewing your resume on www.chrisoleary.com

You have an interesting and diverse background. Unfortunately it is not very deep in the field of baseball. I'm all for intensive self-study and book learnin', but some experience in the trenches (above the 7th grade) would be helpful.


You're entitled to your opinion, but I have two guys at the ML level who talk to me because they think I know what I'm talking about.


quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
In particular, I now think I understand your concern with the "down L" position. It is, quite candidly, because you do not seem to understand how the rest of the baseball world uses the term. I suspect this is a result of your lack of practical baseball experience.


I didn't coin the term Inverted L. Instead, I am just responding to someone who said Greg Maddux came to the Inverted L position.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FIH/is_n5_v65/ai_n18606862

I don't think that's an accurate description of his arm action.


quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
You say Maddux does not use the "down L" position, but in fact photos posted on your site show him in exactly that position, and the interview excerpt posted on your site explains exactly how he gets to that position.


What photo are you referring to?
Last edited by thepainguy
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