deadweight seniors

08Son's high school had a similar rule - that all players who had spent Freshman - Junior years in the program would get a varsity jersey for their senior year. It was made very clear to the players that playing time did not come with the jersey - it had to be earned. All that seniors were promised was a place on the time and at least 1 AB and one inning in the field so that they would get their letter. If they caused trouble, they would be gone. In several years of watching the program, never saw a problem.

Well, new coach came in and eliminated that policy - causing a great deal of trouble and grief for himself. Lots of push back from parents, administration, alumni, etc. When playoffs came around, and a couple of injuries kicked in, he was starting a sophomore kid at short in his first varsity game in the playoffs. Also had a freshman in right who had not even practiced with the varsity before. Lets just say it was ugly.

So my question to you - are you sure it is best for the program? Twelve players sounds like a really small squad for a high school team - a couple of injuries and you will be really handcuffed.

I'm not a coach. At my son's high school, a change from a unpopular coach to a popular coach meant that a group of athletic freshman/sophomore players came out for baseball and displaced older players. That year they carried a team of 27. 10 of those players were seniors who knew at the beginning of the season that their playing time would be very limited. Three other senior players chose to not stay on the team, or the roster would have 30! Some parents were disappointed, but the players themselves handled it well. Not a "horror story" at all.

Why buck school policy? I think you only really need to clearly (starkly, even) communicate the situation to the seniors before the season begins. It won't be easy telling them that they will get minimal playing time, but telling them that they are cut won't be easy either.

Finally, consider how casual observers may see this. The school has a history of not cutting seniors for performance, but presumably has cut players for misbehavior. Perhaps seniors that you cut will have an unfair stigma attached to them.

I would just be honest with those seniors that they are going to really have to pick it way up to see the field. That might eliminate a few of the guys that don't really want to get after it anyway. For those who want to stay, make it clear that the best player will play. I don't care if it's a freshman or a senior, the best player will be on the field. That gives everyone the hope and that little carrot to bust it just a little more.

You never know what a senior may do. I've seen a few guys who weren't being counted on for anything really surprise you. Plus, I think a senior role player that really embraces that role and works his tail off to fill that role completely...that guy can really pull a team together. Maybe it's courtesy runner, or a defense only guy who only plays when your SS pitches and you have to DH for him. Who knows, but those guys can really be valuable if they buy into what you're doing and if you're honest with them. Don't lead them on to think they're going to be hitting 3rd and playing in the middle of the field, but then they're picking splinters all year. Be honest, be sincere, and the good ones will stick with you I believe and they will contribute positively to your program.

Here's my .02:

Those players who have made the team for the past 2-3 years have shown a loyalty to the program that should be reciprocated. It doesn't mean they start over better players...and it doesn't mean they hit in the line-up over superior batters...but they stay a part of the team. Their roles should be clearly communicated, and the reasons, and they should be given the option: play limited time or watch from the bleachers...but it is their decision.

Last season my son's coach cut seniors from the team. These young men, and their parents, had supported the program from their Soph year on. They had endured the bench...and played through some very tough seasons (not even a sniff of post-season play). They were decent, if not outstanding, players. I believe they should have had the option of playing limited time (at least 5-6 of the games were pre-season games that meant nothing towards post-season play), and filled roles coming off the bench. The team went to the State Tourney for the first time in years. Those seniors never had that opportunity...didn't get a chance to be part of a winning season after earning spots on the team and enduring the previous seasons.

For underclassmen the rule should be different: make the team! Soph, JV, or Varsity doesn't matter...but be good enough to earn a spot! For those who have shown the talent, work ethic, and desire to earn a spot for 2-3 seasons, and their talent is at least equal to the previous season, their senior year they should have a jersey. There is a caveat: there must be roster spots available. For son's team last year, the coach took sophs and freshmen who had never seen the varsity field to the state tourney as back-ups. None of them played. Those seniors, who had varsity experience, may have made a difference in a couple of those games. We'll never know. But the spots were available, and in my humble opinion, those seniors should have filled them.

Therefore, if you have 19-20 quality players without those seniors...then cut them if you feel there is a need. With only 12 spots filled...you might want to consider keeping them.

Been there done that. My first year as head coach I had a number of Sr and Jr players in the program. None of them wanted to attend fall workouts. None of them wanted to work hard when tryouts began. I cut them.

Here is the deal. There are no Sr's Jr's Soph's or Freshman in your program. There are baseball players in your program. No one graduates into a starting role. No one graduates onto your team. No one just gets a jersey. It has to be earned - period.

When you have kids on your team for any other reason other than they are the best players on your team you are heading for trouble. You can tell them whatever you want to tell them. They will tell you exactly what you want to hear. And then sit back and watch the cancer grow and destroy your team and your program.

You keep players because they can help you win and help your program. You keep players that know their role and are willing to accept that role. You keep players that are willing to work to expand that role anyway they can. You cut the ones that do not fall into that category. If not you will never build a winning program.

I told my AD if I was going to be the coach then I was going to be the coach. I was going to decide who was on my team and who was going to play. I told him when he felt that it was his job to decide who I had on my team then he could coach them and I would find somewhere else to coach.

Players have to know that they must earn it. They have to know that they will have to be the best option - period. Or you can have a bunch of guys on your team simply because they have stuck around for three or four years. And you can have better players not make the team simply because they are younger in age.

Earn it. If your a senior and you have been in the program three or four years and your not good enough yet to contribute then if there is not enough room who do you cut? The better player who has earned it? I dont think so. JMO

You got to keep it open to competition - best players play no matter grade. I don't think you tell anyone flat out you don't think they will get much playing time. If you feel that someone won't play as much as they used to or whatever then you do have the responsibility to them to let them know that it's a possibility but they also need to know they will have a chance to earn more time.

I believe in loyalty to seniors who make it through the program but you can't cut a better player just to make them feel good. If you have the jersey's and you know without a doubt they can handle not playing then keep them if you have the jerseys. But you know your kids and if they are good kids they won't be a problem. If they are going to be problems then you probably should have gotten rid of thems ooner but if it's a sudden change then can them. You still have a responsibility to the rest of the team.

I think if you keep 12 players you might be asking for trouble but that's your decision.

I feel like I agree with both sides of the argument. On one hand it's fair to the seniors to keep them and find them a place after they've been around for four years.

My problem is that sitting these kids on the bench will lead to parent issues and discipline problems (not to say cutting them won't lead to similar issues).

My real concern is the small roster as I don't have a lot of kids ready to play at the varsity level yet (the 12 I do have are ready to go).

I've seen a few messages from fathers on this post, my question is whether you would feel differently if you were the coach and you had to think about what's best for the 12... or what's best for the 4.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:

You keep players because they can help you win and help your program. You keep players that know their role and are willing to accept that role. You keep players that are willing to work to expand that role anyway they can. You cut the ones that do not fall into that category. If not you will never build a winning program.
Players have to know that they must earn it. They have to know that they will have to be the best option - period. Or you can have a bunch of guys on your team simply because they have stuck around for three or four years. And you can have better players not make the team simply because they are younger in age.

Earn it. If your a senior and you have been in the program three or four years and your not good enough yet to contribute then if there is not enough room who do you cut? The better player who has earned it? I dont think so. JMO

Coach May sums up pretty well what I've seen over the last six years with a very competitive program here in AZ. There were problems if a spot on the team or a role was given to a kid for anything other then him earning it by contributing to the team. Coaches could take great pains to tell a kid he'd have a very limited role and the kid would hear something different. In some cases the problem was the parents, sometimes the kids were disruptive. The only way to be fair to kids in the program, the only way to be kind, is to hold to the absolute standard of contribution to the program. There are lots of ways to contribute to the team, what you need is everyone in the program figuring out how they can maximize their contribution.

Coach May,
I think you're leaving the reducing the roster size down to 12 players out of it. I can see your point, without fully agreeing with it, relative to a program that returns let's say 12 seniors to a program that carries 18 varsity players year in and year out. I don't see that when a program cuts the number of players they are going to carry specifically to cut seniors.

gcfan,
How many players did you carry last season? I've seen "deadweight" seniors make significant contributions, post injury or younger players not panning out.

To some extent, it may depend on the size of the turnout for baseball at a given school.

08Son went to a school with less than 1000 students and three baseball teams (Freshman, JV and Varsity). Normally there were about 10-15 players per class - typically fewer in the later years - and a total of 45-50 guys out for the team. Cuts were very seldom needed at any level.

Having a senior on the team wasn't about not having room for a deserving Junior or Sophomore - it was about the 15th, 16th or 17th spot on the team. If the Junior or Sophomore wasn't good enough to start, they were on JV where they were playing and developing their skills.

I can see in a larger school where you have perhaps 100+ players competing for perhaps only 30 spots on two teams, that the choices would be harder.

BTW - 08 Son's school had one of the best baseball programs for a small school in the state of California and turned out a steady stream of college players under the old coach. It remains to be seen how things will be under the new coach but the initial signs aren't good.

quote:

I've seen a few messages from fathers on this post, my question is whether you would feel differently if you were the coach and you had to think about what's best for the 12... or what's best for the 4.

gcfan,

Again, it would depend on how many true varsity players I would have for that season. Son's school can carry 25 players per roster (V, JV, Soph) for a total of 75 kids. Now, that would probably be unreasonable under most varsity conditions, but that is exactly what the Soph team carried: 2 players per position plus the few "pitcher-only" players. For Soph, it worked. For Varsity...maybe not so much.

If, throughout the Senior, Junior, and Soph classes I had only 12 true Varsity starters, and this included all 8 positions and 4 additional pitchers/position players...and I could carry 20-25 on the roster...and the 4 seniors were decent players (again, not outstanding...but decent), and they had contributed to the team in the past (unlike Coach May's situation), then they would have a spot on the team. The first 12 would get the bulk of the starts, they would be "The" team in region, and the definite starters in the state tourney. The 4 would be role players, get their shots in the pre-season, and I would have experienced back-up players in case of injury or regular-season blowouts.

To me, the loyalty works both ways. If I want the players to remain loyal to me, the HS program and the team; then I have to remain loyal to them. This also sends a message to the underclassmen fighting for spots: I don't have to be the best talent to remain on the team. I do have to work hard, stay focused, and give my all. My playing time will be less than the better players...but as long as I'm good enough to have a spot...coach will see that I do.

Again, there are the caveats: if it is only a matter of small/medium differences in talent...not heart, nor desire, nor attitude...they made the camps, clinics, summer leagues, fall leagues, tournaments...then they have shown how much the team and baseball mean to them. If they blew off the summer, the fall, the camps, and left me hanging in tournaments...then no...they haven't earned a spot on the bench...let alone on the team. Additionally, if there is a full roster of available players, and they are better than the seniors...plainly and simply the seniors don't have a spot on the team. That situation I can understand and agree with completely.

I appreciate everyone's comments. This is one case where I was very torn thinking about the upcoming spring this year and all of your insight has given me perspective not only on the coaching side but also on the parent side of things.

As I approach this spring this will make it easier for me to make some decisions as some of the things said here I hadn't yet considered.

quote:

Despite all this, my AD is sending me the message that if a player has been in the program until their senior year, that they should be on the team.

Ask your AD to sit on the bench and control the situation that may occur. You really should not have too many. the critical year is junior year. You have to project their playing senior year. If you have any doubts it is best to do it then. Carrying them onto senior year can and will be a problem considering the seniors must play or be on the team mentality that has taken over.

I am really not understanding a 12-man high school baseball team. One guy gets hurt, one guy moves, one guy gets expelled and one guy quits and you are in serious trouble.

Some of the "dead weight" may contribute to team morale. Some might surprise you with a big year. What is the point of running your team on fumes?

I think many of you think that having a 12 man team means I have nowhere to go if someone gets hurt. That's what the JV is for. I'll have 16 or 17 of them so if someone gets hurt on the varsity it's not like I'm just out of luck here.

Perhaps things are different in your area, but in CA, if a player has played in a JV game that day, they can't play in a varsity game as well. I have seen too many times where a manager would have been caught short due to injuries if he was carrying a 12 man roster.

Take the simple example of two fielders running into each other chasing a fly ball - both go out of the game - now you are down to one. It just seems like a very short bench.

It is really hard to make hard and fast decisions on this, because nobody can know all the particulars of your situation.

From my standpoint, having grown up and lived in this basically rural, small town area for almost all of my life, high school sports team represent a large portion of the local community's spirit, identity, and bragging rights over the county rival. I have seen a lot of these teams over the past half century who barely had enough to form a team, much less have enough to scrimmage against. I have also seen a situation with a cousin, on a basketball team, where there were 10 comparable seniors, a good junior, and an outstanding sophomore. The soph and junior started, leaving the 10 seniors fighting for the playing time. It did not turn out well in that case. Part of it was probably due to the nature of the individuals, my cousin included.

I have also seen kids who would do anything in an area town to be part of the basketball team, even if they played a total of 2 minutes the whole season. That town really worships at the temple of the orange round god. If they stuck it out, I can see having them there for that recognition. I think the ADs position follows along those lines. I don't think you should have to play them, I don't think you should even have to take them for road games even. However, if it is something that they have worked for, AND are willing to be part of the team, no matter the size of the part, AND if they are not taking a spot from a deserving underclassman player, leave them on the team. My interpretation of what you have said is that the rest of the underclassmen are on the JV, if so, leave the seniors on the team, as long as they know and understand the limited role they have. I have no problem with them not being on the team if they cannot accept and abide by those conditions.

The other issue is really about opportunity. Is it really the best use of their time to practice and then sit and watch others play? Does the school have other opportunities for their talents? Or is this a small town situaton where it is spring, it is baseball season, that's what I do?

While I can understand the program must win games, in today's environment, there are other areas of life that athletics, particularly in high school, are supposed to prepare you to compete, and win, in as well. It is never as easy or one sided as it may first appear.

Sure you'll have plenty of kids who have been facing JV competition ready to come up and be overmatched. Who is the program for by the way? You or the kids? If you answer that question honestly then one way or the other you'll have the answer to your original question.

I can recall the days when HS Varsity baseball coaches never worried about things like this---they just went out and coached like they wanted to.

Nowadays every move a HS coach makes is scrutinized and rescrutinized== Ths HS varsity coach is NO LONGER IN CHARGE

Players are "deadweight". Coach thinks he's going to be fired someday anyway. Is this HS or the Pittsburg Pirates?

Play the best players but have respect for young men that are giving you what they have. Every good coach demands maximum effort from the player and ought to give the same in return.

Mike Piazza was drafted so low the round doesn't exist anymore. Baseball is filled with stories of late bloomers and coaches that "coach'em up'. A Coach worthy of the title should never give up on a player that hasn't given up on himself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CADad:
Sure you'll have plenty of kids who have been facing JV competition ready to come up and be overmatched. Who is the program for by the way? You or the kids? If you answer that question honestly then one way or the other you'll have the answer to your original question.[/QUOTE

It's for the parents, right?

I was actually just bringing some humor into the subject....I actually think this is one of the better discussions that I've read on here in a while.

Classic "tough call" for the coach. Keep a larger roster, or keep the kids who really want to be there and work them.

Yeah, I figured it was "coach" humor.

Actually he did mention parents so I was wrong on that part. On the other hand despite the title of the thread I didn't get the impression that the seniors didn't really want to be there.

I think I'll stop trying to overthink the situation and stick with do what the AD tells him. Sounds like a young coach trying a little too hard to prove he can make a difference in the won loss record. Oops, there I go overthinking it again.

CADAD: Truth be told in 10 years of coaching i've probably had 3 or 4 "bad" parents who caused any type of problem and to be honest it effected me maybe 2x.....I have been blessed and count many parents of former players friends.

So, i'm really not near as jaded as I let on.

quote:

I can recall the days when HS Varsity baseball coaches never worried about things like this---they just went out and coached like they wanted to.

Those days are over I guess it is win with an *

* make sure everybody plays and gets a trophy at the end

good luck with that one

At my son's now former high school a new coach came in a couple of years ago and started the "no existing seniors cut" rule. In the two years it has been in effect their has been no problems from either the players or the parents. The best players played, these seniors fit in where they could.

Most kids know who the best players are and don't do much complaining if they are not playing. By senior year even most parents can see that their child may not one of the 9 best players.

The seniors who did not play were used primarily as pinch runners. In blowouts they would be the first substitutes, and in non league games they would, occasionally, get a start in place of a struggling starter. Never an issue.

If a kid has been playing since freshman year baseball is a big part of his high school experience. Something he's been doing since he was 7 or 8 years old and something that he identifies himself with. Why eliminate that element in the last 4 months of his childhood? Most times I would bet that this situation would apply to 2 or 3 players at the most. Give a kid a break!

It's not very often I don't agree with Coach May but I'm on the other side of the fence on this one.

Coach Mays comment about not having Seniors, Juniors, Sophs, or Frosh, but rather having baseball players who have to earn the right to play is outstanding. This is something that I will stress this year which I'm sure will come with some parental complaints. Oh well!

fillsfan,
I don't think you are necessarily disagreeing with Coach May on this one. I got the impression he wasn't going to keep seniors who weren't willing to put in the effort just because they were seniors. I do get the impression that he was going to keep seniors who were willing to work hard and contribute in some way to the team.

I'll also make a distinction here between the player who has never made varsity and the returning varsity senior. I've been assuming that gcfan was referring to players who had been on varsity as juniors. Generally speaking I wouldn't expect a player to be kept on JV as a junior unless there was a pretty good chance they were going to be able to contribute as a senior but that doesn't mean there's a guarantee that a player will make varsity as a senior.

CADad, at son's school as long as you were in the program since freshman year you made the varsity as senior. Many of the "grandfathered" seniors did play JV as juniors.

fillsfan,
I don't have a problem with that, but I don't think that it has to be done that way.

Thanks CADad that is exactly what I was trying to say. I took over a program that had not won a conf championship in 15 years. In fact they had not had a winning record in several years. They had not had one player move on to play at the college level in over 10 years. Basically they showed up on the first day of official practice and walked away after the last game was played. No one invested anything into the program outside of the 3 months out of the year the season was being played. The returning Jr's and Sr's comprised the varsity. The returning Sophs were on JV. If you stuck around you graduated onto the varsity.

I had to change the culture. I had to get kids to understand that if you invest a tremendous amount into something its going to hurt like h e l l to lose. And if you invest a tremendous amount into something you are going to have a great amount of pride to be part of it. And if you invest a tremendous amount into something you can expect to get a lot in return.

When I came in I had a meeting with all the returning players. Fall works outs start on such and such date. If your not playing football I expect you to be there. Baseball wt lifting starts on such and such date and if your not playing football I expect you to be there. If you want to be a part of something special come along for the ride. If you think your just going to be handed a jersey because you had one in the past your dead wrong. You will invest into this program or you will not be a part of this program. If you are willing to invest , if you are willing to work , if you take care of business in the class room , if you conduct yourself in the proper manner off the field , you are welcome. If not don't show up.

Well the Freshman all bought in. Some of the sophs bought in. A couple of the JR's bought in. Only 2 of the Sr's bought in. The players that did not buy in were used to being lazy. They had no idea what investing in something was about. It didnt mean enouugh to them to invest. They didnt believe me so they waited and showed up at the first tryout.

During the tryouts I had Sr's and some Jr's and a couple of returning Sophs walking on and off the field. Half a s s effort. Showing up late for practice. No problem when the cuts came out I called them each in individually and cut them. I told them why. I kept the best players that were willing to buy in , willing to invest in something , willing to put in as much effort as I was willing to put in. One of the kids cut was the son of the Booster Club President. Another was the son of the HC of Girls basketball. One was the nephew of a school board member. All of them were someone's son.

I spent two days in meetings with the parents and AD. I told them to their face why their sons were cut. The responses I got were "They have paid their dues." "They are Sr's!" "Who do you think you are." "We have always done it this way." "These are good kids your cutting." From the HC of basketball "Thats my son your cutting." My response "Thats someones daughter you will be cutting." I told my AD "Back me or fire me." He backed me 100%.

The message was sent that turned our program around 100%. That year we won the conference championship. We started 2 freshman , 3 sophs , 2 jrs and 2 srs. From that point on we won or finished second in our conference every single year. Numerous players went on to play college baseball and two were drafted. When we lost we cried. We know longer wanted to win we expected to win. We no longer came in to hs wanting to be a hs player. We came into hs wanting to be a college player.

I have never cut a kid that invested that made it into our program. Never and never will. I have never kept a player that was not willing to invest. Never have never will. Players need to know that there is a price to be paid and a reward for paying that price. If your not willing to pay it you dont deserve to get a pay day. If you want to build a program then build a program. If you want to have a team from year to year then do whatever you want to do and avoid controversy. If you do it the right way you are going to p i s s off people. And you are going to help young men reach their dreams.

You have to have an AD that will allow you to build a program. If he or she is going to decide who is on your team my advice to you is either leave or accept the fact the AD is really the coach. JMHO

What I've seen over the years, and I think Coach May will agree with me on this, is once you get your program established you typically don't have to worry about cutting deadweight seniors - they have cut themselves already.

When I took over at my school in KY it was very similar to the situation Coach May was in. A program that wasn't very good although they had good players. They lacked discipline and dedication. Seniors were allowed to take a week off for spring break and head to Florida with whoever and step back into the lineup when school resumed that Monday. I took over and said if you weren't with us during Spring Break then that player made the decision they were quitting. I phrased it that way not to skirt around the issue but to help start instilling commitment to the program. I had several Seniors not come out due to this new rule. Also, I met with everyone and said all positions were open to competition and the best would play regardless of grade which was another huge change. Due to the Seniors who didn't come out 7 Sophomores, 1 Junior and 1 Senior started. I had 2 Seniors total - the starter and a guy who came out just for his Senior year. This guy met with me and asked if he would be given a fair chance and I told him yes. When I asked why he never played he said he hated the was baseball was done before me. He made the team due to he worked his rearend off during tryouts. He played maybe 5 innings all season with a few at bats - he wasn't very good but he was a phenomenal role model. Same could be said for the Senior starter.

After that season it was established the best play and you had to make a commitment to the team. I didn't care if your favorite sport was basketball, football or whatever but when it was time to do baseball you respected the game and gave it your all. They all bought into that and we had a great run with that Sophomore bunch but the dead weight Seniors were gone and with a few exceptions who felt they could change my mind were gone.

Established your rules, expectations and standards and then stick with it - vast majority of problems are now gone.

For any new coaches who might be reading this please understand this isn't a cureall. There are some idiots out there who have no clue how good their son is. There will be problems with parents and early in your career it might be something you dread or want to avoid but always remember - you make the lineup out until they fire you. If a place wants to fire you for trying to compete and put the best product on the field it's not the end of the world. That school has actually done you a favor by firing you. Go find a school that wants you to do your job. That perspective comes with time but it can be a little daunting early in your career but stick to your guns.

Coach that is simply an outstanding post.

I guess I missed understood the term deadweight. The way you two coaches describe the seniors as not working or caring very much is very different than what happens at my son's school. None of the returning seniors are really deadweight. They just happen to be hustling, hard working kids whose talent level is surpassed by other seniors and underclassmen.

If I had a kid not buying into the program and loafing on and off the field I would do the same thing you guys did. As long as the player cares, works hard and accepts his role he should be kept on the team for his senior year IMO. You can always find another uniform.

I guess you were right CADad.

Thanks Coach - appreciate it.

fillsfan I look at it like this - if I carry 16 on the roster then each and every single one of those 16 have a role on the team. Some are the guys who play the majority of the time. Some are the guys who play as backups when someone might be pitching. Some might be courtesy runners. Some might be the ones who help me and my coaches establish positive atttitudes through their actions. A lot of the jobs on a team never get recognition and most people don't realize how valuable they are. It's tough and it takes a very mature outlook on the big picture but if you can get it it's truly amazing to watch the team chemistry.

Honestly do you want to know who does the most coaching in my practices? The Seniors and Juniors coach more than all of my coaches. They are the ones who have spent 3 to 4 years in our program and know how we want to do things. I always tell our younger guys that if an older players instructs you on how to do something it's a safe bet they need to follow the instruction. Now we don't have to stop a drill for a coach to work with one kid - a Senior / Junior takes the kid off to the side and works with them while the drill continues. That doesn't mean we're totally oblivious as to what the older player is teaching - we still watch over their instruction but the vast majority of time it's spot on how we want it. There would be times when we would be practicing and I would stand there just to watch. I would see teaching going on by my kids and my coaches running smooth practices and it would bring chills to me because of how great the program was. It was so good that if I missed we never missed a beat under my coaches. I got a great situation going right now as an asst. coach with the school I'm at now (we were state runner up this past spring and got a great chance to go deep again and we got a kid who will probably get drafted) but I truly cannot wait to be a head coach again so I can get some good assts myself and build this type of program again. But to get there it takes hard work and sticking with a plan.

As for the situation of cutting a senior in favor of a young guy here is my thoughts. If I carry 16 guys on a team and there are 17 possible kids - a senior who will probably never see the field but is the type of kid I described above OR the young stud who can flat out play - I'm going to have 17 on the roster that year. I will not cut a kid who can help us as a Senior being a leader and I'm not going to cut a young stud because if we don't teach him then he probably never will. I will carry 18, 19, 20 or whatever if they are good kids and will help us. I will find a uniform somewhere and reward good people.

Put good kids in positions of leadership and mentorship and you will be amazed how great your team turns out.

coach2709 we are on the same page!

Are all the coaches in North Carolina as wise as you and Coach May?

What both Coach May and Coach2709 are describing is how the program worked at 08Son's high school. In general, seniors who were a part of the program for 4 years were assets - perhaps not the most talented players but assets as coaches and leaders who got the most out of the tools they had.

Cutting a senior who isn't putting out the effort or who is a disruptive influence makes total sense to me - any player who falls into that category should be cut.

Where I would draw the line is cutting the senior who puts out the effort, does everything he is supposed to do (and often more) and simply isn't as good as some of the other players on the team. I believe that that kid can be an asset - perhaps he is the emergency catcher and the guy who catches bullpens during the week. Perhaps he is the 4th or 5th outfielder that fills in for a couple innings when the team needs a steady defensive presence. Perhaps he is the guy who can get down a bunt when it matters.

Whatever the role, as long as it is clearly communicated and the player is accepting of it, then I think finding him a uniform is the right thing to do.

One observation I've made that seems to suggest looking at this question a different way is that Junior year is when most kids are carried who are not making a contrubution and may be inhibiting more talented kids from playing. For programs that have Fr, JV and V teams does it make sense to keep a bunch of Jr's on the JV team?

Sure keep any that you can reasonable project might help you next year but would it make more sense to let the Sophomores that are going to have two years to contribute to the varsity play on the JV team? Would cutting kids before their Jr season be less painful then when they are seniors?