Debunking the "Swing Down on the Ball" approach

"Swing down on the ball" is a misunderstanding of swinging down to the ball.

Swinging down on the ball would create a chop swing limiting the height on the ball batted.

Yes, you're right on. But it amazes me how much this is being taught still. Have you found this to be the case?

I doubt I could find the article anymore but I do know that in some specific cases Ted Williams would tell young players who were upper cutting excessively to "swing down on the ball". He also felt there was a place for players with speed who hit ground balls.

I find it fun to see how things go back and forth in hitting instruction. I remember being taught to have my elbow high when hitting by Jim Lefebvre's dad. He admired Yaz. Recently, instructors would tell everyone how wrong that was while a large portion of mlb hitters were doing it successfully.

Hitting is a very individual thing. Some things and some cues work for one hitter and don't work for another. Some things and some cues work at one age and don't work at another.

Generally speaking hitters should be trying to hit line drives and their size and power relative to the players they are competing with then determines whether they should be trying to hit low line drives, frozen ropes, line drives just over the infielders or trying to loft the ball over the fence.

I'd stick with the old timers like Yaz.

Old fashioned top hand hitters seemed to get the most hits and exercised better bat control. Top hand creates a swat rather than a labored bat carrying swing.

This pic is from Williams book. He talks extensively about how the bat comes through the ball. Pick it up, it's a good read with lots of visuals. The Science of Hitting

Williams Swing Plane

I've just refreshed my memory by reading Mike Epstein on Hitting. If rotational mechanics are used, it's impossible to swing down and stay back. It just cannot happen. With a linear swing, it's easier because the hitter is not rotating around an axis. Matching the plane of the swing to the plane of the ball is one of the three universal techniques that most great hitters utilize. The other two being hands stay inside the ball and hips lead the hands.

The problem with that is, pitches don't have planes....

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The problem with that is, pitches don't have planes....

oh geez......

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Originally posted by Prime9:

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The problem with that is, pitches don't have planes....

oh geez......

Agreed, let's please not go down that road. We're just communicating that swings that can continue through the strike zone for the longest amount of time stand the best chance of connecting with a baseball... whatever "plane" the pitch may be on

Swinging down on the baseball cuts the zone in half and does not move through the zone, and therefore cannot have the same chance of success.

Blue Dog, stop trying to introduce logic into the discussion. Shame on you.

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Originally posted by johnny appleseed:
With a linear swing, it's easier because the hitter is not rotating around an axis.

Linear hitters may or may not rotate, they just don't make use of the rotation. Their hands and arms are on their own.

If I remember correctly, in the Science of Hitting, Williams states that hitters like Nap Lajoie (sp?) were better off swinging down on the ball. Different strokes for different folks.

It would be a little humorous trying to find a plane for a 12 - 6 curveball to swing on....

Curveball plane

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
It would be a little humorous trying to find a plane for a 12 - 6 curveball to swing on....

Yes, which is why good curveballs don't get hit as you already know.

I heard a coach trying to teach this same thing by explaining to the players that they need to swing with a slight uppercut on the plane of the ball. He very well may be right, but no teenager is going to learn the proper mechanics by being told you should have a slight uppercut. All of this coaches players developed terrible uppercuts and when the wind was blowing they hit a few homeruns, otherwise they were terrible. We have been teaching this swing for years by simpling telling our players to finish their swing high, up around their head. Your science of the swing is fine and sounds great, but kids learn proper mechanics through drilling and muscle memory, they could care less about the science. I would be very interested to see some drills to teach players to "hit on the plane of the ball".

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Originally posted by Auggie6:
I heard a coach trying to teach this same thing by explaining to the players that they need to swing with a slight uppercut on the plane of the ball. He very well may be right, but no teenager is going to learn the proper mechanics by being told you should have a slight uppercut.

hmmm... Many have success with this. Ted Williams wrote a book about this in 1971.

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We have been teaching this swing for years by simpling telling our players to finish their swing high, up around their head.

I'm glad that works for you, but you can swing up or down and still finish high.

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Your science of the swing is fine and sounds great, but kids learn proper mechanics through drilling and muscle memory, they could care less about the science.

I'm not sure that an "uppercut swing" would be described as "science", but they need to be doing the right drills, not just any drills.

Sultan,

I am not saying the swing is wrong, what I am saying is that you can't teach that swing by telling a kid, "swing with a slight uppercut". What I am asking for is proper drills to teach a player to swing on the plane of the ball.

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I'm not sure that an "uppercut swing" would be described as "science",

Then Ted Williams messed up by naming his book the "Science of Hitting"

Hi guys,

I posted this in the general topics area earlier today but just stumpled upon this conversation that this would directly apply to regarding the swinging down concept.

I too can't understand where coaches get this idea of swinging down on the ball, its completely a Myth and wrong...I actually just posted a video of me explaining this concept and shows exactly what NOT to do and along with the CORRECT way...you can check it out at www.MazzurcoBaseball.com . There is nothing for sale here just trying to help baseball players out as I was affected by getting poor advice from coaches in the past also and know what you or your kid is going through. Just opt-in with your e-mail address when you go to the website and hit the Access Now button and you'll get access to the video that explains and clarifies all this...Enjoy!

Vinny

Vinny, it would probably be much more valuable to the board here if you'd just simply link the video here so members can see it without having to opt into anything.

Hi,

I will see if I can get my computer tech guy to change the way the link works, I'm not the best at all this computer link/code stuff..Thanks for the feedback.

Vin

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
It would be a little humorous trying to find a plane for a 12 - 6 curveball to swing on....

a 12-6 curve ball left up will travel a long way in the opposite direction when met by a bat traveling with a slight upercut

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Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
It would be a little humorous trying to find a plane for a 12 - 6 curveball to swing on....

a 12-6 curve ball left up will travel a long way in the opposite direction when met by a bat traveling with a slight upercut

A lot further than a swing where the extension happens downward through the zone, yes

Anyone want to tackle the "Linear vs Rotational" swing discussion?

Nope! See ball, hit ball! I thing alot of this analysid takes away the kids natural swing. With a couple of little tweaks a kids swings can be fixed. Not rocket science.

Anybody who wants the barrell coming down at contact to create backspin has played too much ping pong. Every sport has youth league coaches who teach the wrong stuff. I'm amazed at some of the stuff I see in football due to well meaning coaches that have no clue.

There has to be some drop in the swing due to the fact the barrell has to go from around the head area to the waist area. The goal to hitting is create a swing that will keep the barrell in the zone for the longest amount of time. You're going to see more fastballs than anything so this is what you need to develop. As for hitting a curve it can be done. Good hitters have this fairly natural ability to track the path of the ball and time their swing to be in the same place as the ball. You can learn this to a degree but overall good hitters have good instincts.

Best way I've found to teach the swing is use the analogy that your barrell is a plane and it has to land and take off in a wooded area. You should have a gentle downward path into the zone (landing the plane), through the zone (traveling down the strip) and then after contact finish upward (plane takes off again.

Key things they visualize is that if they drop the barrell then they will crash the plane into the trees in front of the landing strip. This is basically taking hands and dropping them straight down too far and end up around the waist. Now the barrell has taken an almost "L" shaped path into / through the zone.

If they come down too hard then the plane crashes and this is the problem we're currently discussing.

As for the finish as long as they explode through the ball I don't care where / how they finish because it doesn't affect hitting the ball. Two drills I like to teach this is get a tee set up and have it slightly forward where the ball would be over the front of the plate. Set up an old wooden chair a few feet behind the tee and make sure you have an old bat because it will get beat up. Now take some cuts. You can also hold a broom in place of the chair.

If they hit the chair then they have dropped their hands and crashed into the trees. How the ball comes off the tee also tells you if they are taking the right path. If the ball goes off to the front of the tee then they are coming down too far. If the ball comes off the tee as a line drive then they pretty much have it.

The other drill is to help explode through the zone. Hang an old tire on the wall, get an old bat and take some cuts. Make sure they hit the tire and finish through it and not just stop at contact. If the tire is new it will be tougher but as the tire gets older then it gets easier. You will be amazed how much these two drills will do for you.

The purpose of hitting is to get the barrell on the middle part of the ball and to hit the ball as hard as you can. All a homerun is a linedrive you got a hold of OR a well hit ball that was a milimeter under the center of the ball. A well hit curve ball is just a ball that you were able to track into the zone and hit.

Swing plane is important.....Plane of the pitch is a myth.....

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
Swing plane is important.....Plane of the pitch is a myth.....

Geez... then 6'5" pitchers off a 10 inch mound don't exist.

You can post pics, videos, and any "science" that you wish to keep posting. However, the easiest way to teach a kid to be "short to the ball" is to use the "understandable" terminology that the hands work downhill to the baseball, then we work hands through the baseball creating extension after contact, and the finish is high and out of the zone, which helps most kids with balance issues.

Some guys are right here, that finishing high is how most hitters are successful in keeping the barrel in the zone for as long as they can, through contact. Some of you are taking it far to literal that people are teaching a chopping or "down hill through the entire swing" approach.

It all comes down to terminology that works in a kids mind. Backspin is real, and the ball carries further with it, when the ball is struck well. This should be obvious, as we have all seen the kid with a long swing who topspins everything to the pull side. The ball doesn't travel when this happens.

Point is, I don't think anyone is "teaching" that a player must work the barrel at a 45 degree angle through the entire swing and finish with the barrel wrapped around his ankles. That would be assinine and is **** near physically impossible. We aren't trying to chop a block of wood. But, again, the easiest way to teach kids to be short to the ball, create extension through contact in the zone, and stay on balance, is to use terms they understand. Hands and barrel down to the ball, hands and barrel through the ball, and finish high.

For you guys out there being way too literal, why don't we look at "catching the ball with two hands". I don't think you want any players actually getting their throwing hand involved in the actual catch of that ball.. Can you say broken fingers? but it is the easiest way to teach kids a transfer. In the same manner, nobody here is saying you chop wood, but instead, it is an idea of the hands working down to the ball.

That may be a bad metaphor, but some of the comments about terminology drive me crazy. It all comes down to the end result and that is, a swing being as short and quick to the ball as possible, while creating extension through it with the greatest batspeed a player can create, while maintaining balance. This can only be done on a particular plane for any given player.

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Originally posted by illini fan:

Point is, I don't think anyone is "teaching" that a player must work the barrel at a 45 degree angle

Really? Who just changed Harper's swing?


How to stay on top of the baseball video


Cal Ripken

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Stay on top of the ball. A slight downward swing allows this and is a good way to keep from upper-cutting.

Fox Sports Twins showing how to hit the top of the ball with a downward swing path- eeekkkk! Gets good around 1:30.


ThePitchingAcademy.com says:

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A few months ago I was listening to a bunch of instructors at a local training facility use the language, “you need to swing down on the ball like this”. He demonstrated a sharp downward path from the load position with his hands near his back shoulder to a point just past his front hip. The reason for this type of path to the baseball he said was to “come down in order to hit the bottom half of the ball. This creates backspin on the ball.”
I couldn’t believe it.

I recommend you go to any youth park in the country, and you will see 90%+ of the 12U and younger kids swinging down to contact.

yep, good job, you got me. you didn't include the rest of my sentence and you are showing a clip of one swing, in a cage. Here is the whole sentence.

"Point is, I don't think anyone is "teaching" that a player must work the barrel at a 45 degree angle through the entire swing and finish with the barrel wrapped around his ankles."

i don't see him finishing low at all. do you just try to make everyone look stupid? maybe "anyone" was not the correct word, but instead, "everyone who teaches a downhill concept". is that better?

and sultan, i will talk hitting all day all night, but you pick one sentence out of the whole deal to take a look at? come stronger than that. i know, i know, you are right. keep teaching kids to work that barrel uphill... you might hit some balls out of the yard, but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well.

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Originally posted by illini fan:
keep teaching kids to work that barrel uphill... you might hit some balls out of the yard, but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well.

So you teach to "swing down on the ball", even though MLB hitters do not swing like this?

did you read anything i wrote? no, absolutely not. here let me post this as a copy from another thread, and maybe you can understand what I do think. And please notice, I have never said "down ON the ball". That is ludicrous. It is terminology in how the hands work versus how the barrel works and what i think is the best to teach hitters. here you go....

Down to the ball is an idea. The barrell doesn't actually work that way. This idea helps kids, and hitters of all ages to think about being short to contact.

I question whether some guys are teaching with cues on what the hands do, or what the barrel does. They are different. Hands have to work downhill to get the barrell in the zone. Hands have to create extension after palm up palm down contact, which works the barrell through the zone, and then hands finish out of the zone which creates that "uppercut look" that you see with the barrel.

Esposito, yes, it is easy to teach, which helps most hitters understand a correct path and feel that path, again and again. As long as you are not "only" teaching "swing down ON the ball", but you also talk about proper plane, extension, and finish, then it all works for many hitters. I think many of us are arguing over what terminology makes a hitters hands work properly through the swing plane, versus what video shows us that the barrel actually does. Of course, game swings in slow motion video look like an uppercut at and beyond contact. These guys get great extension and finish high which helps them maintain balance.

When you control what you teach with a kids hands and lower half, they tend to control the barrel more consistently. When you start teaching hitters what the barrel should do, I think they lose connection with what the hands have to do to get the barrel there. Teaching a slight uppercut with the barrel, because that is what video shows us, leads me to believe that my hitters would immediately get long and start rolling over balls.

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Originally posted by Auggie6:
What I am asking for is proper drills to teach a player to swing on the plane of the ball.

That's fair enough. The best thing to do, for a start, is for people to stop using destructive cues. Most cues and drills are destructive or backwards (down is up, up is down).

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Originally posted by illini fan:
and sultan, i will talk hitting all day all night, but you pick one sentence out of the whole deal to take a look at? come stronger than that. i know, i know, you are right. keep teaching kids to work that barrel uphill... you might hit some balls out of the yard, but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well. but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well.

NOT,if it is taught right.

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Originally posted by tfox:

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Originally posted by illini fan:
and sultan, i will talk hitting all day all night, but you pick one sentence out of the whole deal to take a look at? come stronger than that. i know, i know, you are right. keep teaching kids to work that barrel uphill... you might hit some balls out of the yard, but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well. but my shortstop will keep picking up those rolled over ground balls and make outs as well.

NOT,if it is taught right.

Ok, ok... keep teaching them what you want, and the good ones would have been good anyway.

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Originally posted by illini fan:
Ok, ok... keep teaching them what you want, and the good ones would have been good anyway.

OK, I am confused. You say you don't teach "swing down to/on the ball", yet you keep defending it.

Do you teach this?

If so, we perform swingdown exorcisms each night after midnight.