Defending the "We" and "I"

Fungo as a high school coach I totally support what you just put but I think the reason a good "we" and "I" parent gets a bad rep is that there are two kinds - good and bad. Most conversations I have had with a "we" and "I" parent usually ended up them mad at me because I wouldn't show favortism, blow smoke etc...

On a few occasions I have had the pleasure in dealing with parents who were good "we" and "I" parents. Usually those kids will be successful in something, even if it's not in baseball. Somewhere in life they will make it because the good parent prepared them.

The good "we" and "I" parents are a small group just as the bad "we" and "I" parents are a small group. Unfortunately the biggest group of parents are the ones who don't have a clue how the process works.

I am not saying this is how it is for all high school coaches but that is what I have seen over the years.

Great thoughts Fungo -- I like the balance you strike. The pursuit of any dream for a young person is a family proposition.

My son and I were recently laughing about how HE wanted to quit playing baseball his 2nd year of T-Ball when we told him he had to wear his cap. Then ... he was fit to be tied to have to wear his cap ... but WE made him. Today, you can't herdly get his cap off his head, and he lives for his baseball.

Like you, we live off the beaten path. When HE wanted to play full-time travel ball, that meant WE drove 1+ hours each way for a 2 hour practice; and further for most gomes. I, HE, and WE become one at that point.

It seems to me that the point of demarcation is found when the dream becomes that of the parent, and not of the player. Like you say; he's just a kid. He does not know what he has to do to get where he says he wants to go. That's where it is the parent's role to help him find the path & navigate it.

At some point, either his passion or his potential will peak, and it is time to move to the next dream. In my opinion, it's the parents who push beyond this point that have crossed the line from supporting their child, to trying to live out their dreams through their child.

Personally, I check in with my son from time to time to find out if HIS passion is still alive, and if HE is ready to do the work to get to where he says he wants to go. I tell him that as long as he has the dream, the passion, and the commitment; then I will do all I can to give him the opportunity to pursue his dreams. That's is the deal WE have struck.

Thanks for sharing some thought provoking observations.

quote:

It's your son and I think you should be involved in his life. You're the one that signed him up for "T" ball and suggested he start on that path so I suggest you not abandon him and help him out.

I fully support the team concept of the parent and the child achieving a goal. I wonder whether or not it is a good idea to also supply the motivation. Let me digress...

When we went to sign my oldest up for coach-pitch house-league baseball at the local fire station (our town did not do T-Ball), he was five years old going on six and my younger was three working on four. When the younger saw his older brother getting signed up, he started to cry that he was not also getting signed up. Everybody at the signup place felt sorry for him and one nice gentlemen came over and said he would get both of them on the same team and that someone would help the little one even though he was not quite old enough yet to participate.

When the season started, the little one (he is now 21) used to play second base or outfield just behind second base. He spent most of the time drawing pictures or doodling in the sand with his foot or his glove. If a butterfly came near him, it was in trouble of being captured by a leather glove! When he came up to bat, he could actually hit the ball! There was just one hitch. After hitting the ball, he liked to just stand at the plate admiring his work. He must have had a dozen parents screaming for him to RUN, RUN, RUN!!!

A few years later when I got home from work, he came running up to me very excited. He said someone had noticed him practice and asked if he could join a local traveling team. I had never heard of a traveling team before. All I knew of was the local little leagues that I had when I was a kid. I was afraid "we" would not be able to live up to the travel requirements (I worked lots of overtime back then) and initially told him I did not see how we could do it. He stuck to his guns. Everytime I came up with some reason it would not work out, he came back with a solution on how it could work. Finally, I relented. Bascially the rest is history and I began helping him achieve his baseball goals.

What is the point of my story?

Of the partnership that has been formed between us, his contribution has always been the motivation and the work ethic. He loves the game that much. My efforts have focused on the planning. How to get from A to B. It has worked well for us.

I believe a sons baseball journey is a team effort. Like every other aspect of a child's life the parents are the financers and guardians in their journey to adulthood. Why should baseball be any different.

While guiding and helping our children we have to be careful not to cross the line into living their lives. We have to let them make the critical decision that baseball is something they want to do at each level. I will advise him as to what the consequences for each decision might be, but it has to be his decision. He has to feel the passion and the enjoyment or this BB journey will end.

If our kids were not involved in baseball I think most of us would still be doing a large part of the college search anyway. Not many kids are focused on the next couple of years and doing the leg work necessary to find the right college. I know mines not.

I must admit though that I hope he is having as much fun as I am because I'm having a blast writing the checks, making the reservations and then watching him play. And so far he is.

A

Loved your post, Fungo. I fully support the "we" concept for the very reasons you stated.

Sometimes even some of the motivation and work ethic must come from the parents -- at least initially. I've seen more than a few players who would be content to rest on their laurels in a variety of ways were it not for some prompting from those in authority over them. Usually, their athleticism allows them to "get by" with giving less than 100% -- at least at the current playing level. And perhaps lax standards at school encourage the player to do the "bare minimum" required with regard to academics and other types of work. Oftentimes, a lack of maturity is to blame.

Our family has had to do a little "prodding" over the years and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Heck, even I -- at the "mature" age of 47 -- can benefit at times from a little prodding! Many times, after laying out some requirements/deadlines/consquences with regard to conditioning, academics, and recruiting communication, my husband and I have seen the passion, commitment, motivation, and work ethic follow. Like Fungo stated, "If I had 'let' my son do what he wanted to do, today he would be ----- I don't even want to think about that." For those players who are either too inexperienced or too immature to make sound decisions regarding their future, a "we" concept is vital.

WE discussed ideas.

I provided opportunity.

He did the work.

WE had a blast.

Seems to me the I and WE pretty much ended once HE set foot on a college campus. Until then I did a lot of background footwork and HE worked at playing baseball. WE enjoyed the process.

Once HE got to college WE had to pretty much let go and hope that WE gave him the work ethic to finish the deal. Now the WE is my wife and I making trips to watch as HE plays and if HE doesn't do the work HE has to live with the consequesnces. Sometimes I wish WE could still do more but reality is that whatever happens from this point on is up to HIM.

It has been a fun ride for US.

Great topic guys. I've been traveling the last two weekends with my son visiting schools and wondering where the boundaries of our we and I roles are. I guess we've taken a business model approach to it. If 4thGen, his dad, his mom, his sister, his BB advisor, his HS coach, his Financial Aid advisor and his extended family are part of "Get 4thGen Recruited, Inc.", he is the CEO. I am maybe his top aid/CFO. He makes the presentations - calls, emails and talks to coaches, establishes direction - what schools he's interested in, and ultimately makes the big decisions. Most importantly, he performs in the classroom and on the field. We try to tee everything up for him so that he can focus on those things.

As an example of the whole process, last weekend we visited three schools. His BB advisor had developed a list some time ago of schools that might be a fit for 4thGen from a BB and academic perspective. He and I both filled out on-line questionnaires. He responded to the information he received back from these three schools with his schedule and an and invitation to view his video. The schools let him know they were interested in writing, via email or over the phone. Two of the three had not seen him play in person. I scheduled the trip and he coordinated things with the coaches. I completed research on the schools over a period of time and we'd talked over a period of time about what we could find out from this site, from former players, from his advisor and from what other coaches had to say. Before our visit to the three schools I briefed him on what he might want to ask, what he wanted to let them know about him and what he wanted to let them know he knew about the school and the program. During the campus tours and the visits with the coaches I tried to stay out of the way, (and failed miserably), and let him form his own opinion of the school, coach and program. We had post visit discussions and he clarified his thoughts on each school. Then he gave the rest of us our marching orders for future action. He follows up with the coaches. His mom is working with him on the applications, his financial advisor is handling the financial aid, his BB advisor and his HS coach are providing their input from a baseball perspective and providing references, his extended family is providing the money and I'm trying to coordinate everything.

I'm sure I've made this sound complicated, for many of you the process may have been as simple as talking to a couple of schools. However, with the kind of demands on a kids' time; school, testing, paid internship, conditioning, travel ball and nearly year round HS baseball, we had to set up a lot of things to save him time.

Get 4thGen Recruited, Inc.
"Find the best academic school 4thGen can get into, that allows him to maximize his potential as a baseball player."


3rdGen
Chief Advisor/CFO

I have had arguments before on the Pre HS side about the use of "WE". My son is not a private citizen with an unlimited amount of money. He has a father, mother, and two sisters. Decisions always are made by my wife and myself when it comes to baseball. How much can we spend, how much time do we have, do the girls have other things to do. Add in the fact that when I can't get off work, my father takes him to practice and games. He is my sons roommate on the few times a year they go out of town. Add Grandpa to the "WE". If he can't make it, my son isn't playing. If WE can't afford it, he isn't playing. If WE have other things that we need to do he isn't playing. I have to say no to his playing for other teams. If he had his way he would play every weekend. No way is HE making those decisions.

Luckily, I have a supportive family that enjoys baseball. We love to watch him play. My girls have good friends with other players sisters on our team and other teams. But the decisions affect everyone. We could spend the money on a vacation. A non baseball vacation. As long as the decisions affect the entire family it will be WE and I.

Like prevoiusly stated, when any baseabll decision affects the family ("we") I have agree with the "I and we" position being perfect ok...especially when we are discussing how far we can travel, how much we can spend, how much fund raising we are expected to do concerning...

That being said....I also agree that that position ends once he becomes a college or pro player...we are not part of the program or a member of the team...we get to take on the "we" of a fan.....

As a fan of your son, and the team he plays for, you can be all the "we" you want....

They still ask for wood bats when in college

quote:

WE discussed ideas.

I provided opportunity.

He did the work.

WE had a blast.

RZ1.....I love this......very simple and to the point.

Fungo, as always a very thought provoking topic. It has always been up to my son whether to continue. Every time I ask him if he's tired and wants to quit, he looks at me funny and says "are you retarded". So we, he and I will continue the journey as it nears its end. I truly believe baseball is the best sport a parent could watch their child play.

This is good material to read and interesting!

I am very new to this site. I sensed a little we/I debate right off the bat with my first and only topic on this site. I thought at first it might just be simply lack of communications in regards to all the we and I talk but I guess it goes a little deeper than that.

I will have to agree with everyone in that everyone makes a pretty good case for how they feel about the issue. I wonder what all the women have to say about this topic because I am guessing most of them never dreamed of having a major league baseball career. How involved were they in their sons baseball life? For the record, I know nothing about professional womens sports. If there are women out there who had the dream of playing pro ball, please forgive me. LOL! Hey, I did hear that in Japan the first female was drafted by a professional baseball team! Hang on, the world is changing!

Probably the most negative comments would come from the coaches. There was a rumor going around our town at some point in the past about how the local college BB coach never drafted or recruited local players because he did not want to deal with the parents. I think I looked at the roster and sure enough it appeared to be true. I do not know this coach so his thought process may have not had anything to do with this subject. But it makes me wonder. Does the I/We get in the way even way up at the college level?

As for me, I never played much ball growing up. Honestly, the times I did play I never got over the fear of the ball. My dad was not much of a sports guy and so there was never any push from the parents in that regard. I preferred football over baseball anyway as a kid. Now I am the dad! Thanks to this site and the people posting, I will be watching myself closely in regard to the I/We "issue".

A very interesting subject. My son is 12 and we enjoy the baseball stuff. I think it most impossible not to be involved. It takes time, money, etc. to support the baseball stuff and seems very difficult for a parent to know when to speak up and when not to. I think a good parent would share that dream of one day becoming the best at the game and playing at the highest level but also knows the odds are against that happening. We also have the advantage of having had some of our own dreams die so we can also deal with that aspect when it comes.

Good discussion.

The part of the game that belongs to a kid is the decision to play, what position he plays, the level he choses to play how long he plays and how much he chooses to practice.

The rest is parental involvement. Providing advice is parental involvement. Playing catch or practicing with a son is not taking over his game. Paying the bills to play the game is not taking over his game.

Taking over the kid's game is when the parent starts deciding the kid's future in the game and/or berates his play after (with some parents it's during) a tough day at the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
You're the one that signed him up for "T" ball and suggested he start on that path so I suggest you not abandon him and help him out.

Nope, didn’t sign him up for Tball. He campaigned to play baseball a little at 7 and quite a bit more at 8. But we thought baseball games took too much time and didn’t offer much exercise compared to basketball, s****r, and football. Nor is it a sport that you play during adulthood like tennis, golf or skiing. When he was 9, and insistent, we capitulated and let him attend a Little League tryout. Of course I was there watching and hoping fervently that he would do well. I would have been disappointed if he hadn’t.

I’m still ambivalent about baseball today. For all three of my kids, we’ve spent quite a bit of money on their athletic pursuits, gloried in their successes and despaired at the failures. It’s wrenching if I can’t be at their games. So we support and enjoy their participation. But push them to practice harder? Refuse to let them quit (once the season is over) a sport? No, because I think about the only reason to play in high school (more so in college) is if the player enjoys it. It’s different than making a child eat their vegetables or take college prep classes. If they don’t do those things, they’ll likely suffer later in life. However, if the kid doesn’t play well enough to make the HS team or get looked at for a college team, but could have if we had pushed him, is that result a net negative or positive?

Let me compare pushing a kid to succeed at baseball to pushing a kid to be a painter, assuming that the child shows both talent and predilection for art. Why would we want to do that? The vast majority of aspiring painters can’t make a living at it. It makes sense for a person to become a painter only if they enjoy it, and have enjoyed it enough during their teenage years to have become good at it on their own initiative.

Of course, the financial outlook for painters is probably better than it is for aspiring professional baseball players.

Or take a kid who hopes he may have the talent to be a pro golfer. Nothing better than a nice stroll in the park, right? The reality of successful pro golfers is spending 3 hours a day practicing putting. The pro golfer needs to either enjoy putting, or be so competitive that he’ll practice anyway, or…. he won’t make it. There’s no way that I’ll push my golfer kid to practice putting, and have him possibly end up in a job in which he really doesn’t enjoy much of the day’s work.

My boy enjoys baseball, and I sure enjoy watching him play. If he can muster the maturity to do the things that will get him to the next level, or maybe the next level after that, great! If he can't get there on (mostly) his own initiative, that's OK too. After all, at some point, probably as college baseball begins, baseball becomes less of a game and more of a job. I want my kids to enjoy their job.

As baseball progresses from middle school to high school and travel ball, it definitely gets more serious and requires a work ethic. Part of that work ethic, I think, is experience. The showcases, the travel teams, the college camps.. these were all populated with a lot of high-achieving kids many of whom I suspect had dads (and moms) reinforcing in them what it takes to reach the highest levels. This game is tough. You need to work your fanny off to get to the top, and I'll tell you right now I've reminded him of that every day. Is that pushing? Maybe, maybe not. But it's HIS game now and I just sit back and enjoy.. and he's loving the game now more than ever!

This is a great topic and very meaningful to me at this point in my life. Just got back from the airport, picking up son from college for Thanksgiving. He talked all the way home (1 hour) about college life. It's so cool to hear him still so excited and loving his college experience.

As a parent at this point we become spectators and these kids are responsible for making it all work.

But, "WE" all worked to help get him to this point. It was a family project that required thousands of hours of our time over all those summers. We continued to support his passion for baseball as long as he continued to want to play.In exchange for our support we got a lot in return. A great student and person, he worked really hard to get a chance to play baseball in college.

After hearing the happiness and excitment in his voice tonight it reaffirms once again how worthwhile all the sacrifices of time and money have been. He did his part in the classroom and on the field and we supported him as much as possible in all other ways. Baseball has been a wonderful experience that has helped make him a better person, teammmate, and son.

3fingeredglove - I don't think anyone disagrees that if your kid has lost interest in baseball, you should continue to push him.

I think what people are saying is if your kid is asking for money, time, and effort from you to support his desire to continue playing basseball, the parent has a right to expect a certain level of work ethic in return. It should not be one side gives and the other side takes without supporting the giver's investment.