defensive player got tangled in runners feet...dropped ball

bump

as I read it chin, you didnt think that the player had control of the ball....

So unless you missed him dropping it as he was in the act of transfer and trying to complete the DP, then I cant find any reason to disagree with your call........

HTBT. Did F6 catch a thrown ball to start the DP or was ball hit to F6? Regardless, IMO, if he touched the base while holding the ball securely then I am going to have an out on this.

Thanks PIAA & NU for your comments. My hesitation to make call was when SS caught the toss from the 2nd baseman, he was stumbling.

Many times when players have the ball and go to the ground it pops out and I rule "safe". During the forward motion of
the SS stumbling, I could see his glove open and then the ball rolled out of his glove. My decision bugged me because
of the amount of time all of this took.

It was "the amount of time" that the head coach argued about. I felt it was one of those calls that could have gone either way.

Things like this are hard to describe sometimes. What you have to think about is did the fielder close his glove, then reopen it. If so then I have a transfer drop and the runner is out. Another way to look at it is did the fall cause it to come out? If so then call the out because the fall is a different cause for the ball coming loose. If you believe he never had control then he certainly is safe.

quote:

I ruled runner safe and H. Coach came out to discuss my decision. Coach felt
like his SS held onto the ball long enough and I should of called runner out.

A fielder shows complete control by A) regaining complete control of his own body after extenuating efforts to make a tag (especially in regard to a fall, dive, or a collision, and B) showing that the release of the ball is (or will be) voluntary and intentional.
Time is not a factor, number of steps is not a factor, closing then opening the glove is not a factor unless the throwing hand is OBVIOUSLY trying to grab the ball. I agree with your call as you wrote it. This is also one of those calls that, as you make it, you know is going to result in a discussion with defensive coach.

quote:

Originally posted by MNUmp:

quote:

I ruled runner safe and H. Coach came out to discuss my decision. Coach felt
like his SS held onto the ball long enough and I should of called runner out.

A fielder shows complete control by A) regaining complete control of his own body after extenuating efforts to make a tag (especially in regard to a fall, dive, or a collision, and B) showing that the release of the ball is (or will be) voluntary and intentional.
Time is not a factor, number of steps is not a factor, closing then opening the glove is not a factor unless the throwing hand is OBVIOUSLY trying to grab the ball. I agree with your call as you wrote it. This is also one of those calls that, as you make it, you know is going to result in a discussion with defensive coach.

This isn't a catch. Voluntary release is not required.

You are right, its not a catch. You 'catch' a batted or pitched ball that is airborne, this was a thrown ball and you 'glove' a thrown ball making this a tag/no tag situation....but yes you still need to gain possession of the ball, meeting the previously mentioned criteria.

When I mention the opening and closing of the glove, something not usually considered, It is because if he has closed it, it probably means control, then falls and hitting the ground makes it come open, then he is out. The fall is a seperate action.

quote:

Originally posted by MNUmp:
You are right, its not a catch. You 'catch' a batted or pitched ball that is airborne, this was a thrown ball and you 'glove' a thrown ball making this a tag/no tag situation....but yes you still need to gain possession of the ball, meeting the previously mentioned criteria.

Possession is not the same as voluntary release.

Control is not the same as voluntary release....that is why you need to have both in order to have a catch or tag. Jaksa/Roder makes this very clear. Outfielder catches the ball, takes five steps, collides with the wall and drops the ball...no catch. Second baseman has ball waiting to tag sliding runner, ball comes loose when he makes the tag...no tag because no voluntary release. In this situation there was no voluntary release..no tag.

quote:

Originally posted by MNUmp:
Control is not the same as voluntary release....that is why you need to have both in order to have a catch or tag. Jaksa/Roder makes this very clear. Outfielder catches the ball, takes five steps, collides with the wall and drops the ball...no catch. Second baseman has ball waiting to tag sliding runner, ball comes loose when he makes the tag...no tag because no voluntary release. In this situation there was no voluntary release..no tag.

Repeat after me: you do not need voluntary release on a tag.

In your tag example, it is not an out because the action of the tag was not completed before the ball was dropped, not because there was no voluntary release.

A voluntary release of the ball is never required to establish control following a catch or a tag. A voluntary release is always dispositive proof of control, but control can also be established before the ball is released (voluntarily or otherwise).

quote:

A voluntary release of the ball is never required to establish control following a catch or a tag. A voluntary release is always dispositive proof of control, but control can also be established before the ball is released (voluntarily or otherwise).

OBR 2.00 A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it.... It is not a catch, however, if
simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball....
In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. If the fielder has made
the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball
shall be adjudged to have been caught.

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his
hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or
glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a
base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag,
the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.

Virtually the same requirements as catch/no catch

Pretty straight forward.....
Lets look to Jaksa/Roder

It is a catch if a fielder who is not on dead ball territory (DBT)6 has complete control of an airborne batted or pitched ball in his hand or glove.7 [2.00] [6.05b] A fielder shows complete control by

(a) regaining control of his own body after extenuating efforts to catch the ball (especially in regard to a fall, dive, or a collision), and
(b) showing that his release of the ball is (or will be) voluntary and intentional.

A fielder need not regain control of his body if he is able to voluntarily release the ball; the voluntary release alone is proof of complete control.

NFHS is virtually the same as OBR

Dont know about FED, we dont use FED in MN, (some people tell me I'm lucky)

Am I missing something? Does FED give a completely different definition of a catch or tag?

For any release to be relevant with respect to establishing a catch, it must be directly associated with the catch attempt itself.

But that is not what the rule says. The rule says the fielder must hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball AND that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

R2 stealing, batter lines one to F5 who "catches" the line drive and starts chasing R2 back to the base. F5 runs 5 steps under complete control of his body, dives at R2 and tags him, but the ball pops out when he hits the ground. An involuntary release. According to the literal rule, no tag and no catch. That is not the way it is called on the field.

Secure possession is what the fielder needs to establish and maintain with respect to either a catch or a tag. A voluntary release of the baseball is always proof that secure possession has been established IF it has not already been established (by control of the ball and body, umpire judgement). If the release occurs later, it is irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by MNUmp:
Control is not the same as voluntary release....that is why you need to have both in order to have a catch or tag. Jaksa/Roder makes this very clear. Outfielder catches the ball, takes five steps, collides with the wall and drops the ball...no catch. Second baseman has ball waiting to tag sliding runner, ball comes loose when he makes the tag...no tag because no voluntary release. In this situation there was no voluntary release..no tag.

Repeat after me: you do not need voluntary release on a tag.

In your tag example, it is not an out because the action of the tag was not completed before the ball was dropped, not because there was no voluntary release.

Read what I have saying. If the tag causes the ball to come loose, it's no tag. If the tag is completed and he is either reaching in to get it or the fall causes it to come loose, it is likely an out. What you are deciding is does he have control before, during and just after the tag. If he drops it after the tag, decide if the tag caused the drop, if no then why it came out is irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by MNUmp:
Control is not the same as voluntary release....that is why you need to have both in order to have a catch or tag. Jaksa/Roder makes this very clear. Outfielder catches the ball, takes five steps, collides with the wall and drops the ball...no catch. Second baseman has ball waiting to tag sliding runner, ball comes loose when he makes the tag...no tag because no voluntary release. In this situation there was no voluntary release..no tag.

Repeat after me: you do not need voluntary release on a tag.

In your tag example, it is not an out because the action of the tag was not completed before the ball was dropped, not because there was no voluntary release.

Read what I have saying. If the tag causes the ball to come loose, it's no tag. If the tag is completed and he is either reaching in to get it or the fall causes it to come loose, it is likely an out. What you are deciding is does he have control before, during and just after the tag. If he drops it after the tag, decide if the tag caused the drop, if no then why it came out is irrelevant.

Did you mean to address that to me? We agree on this.

No, adding to what you said.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:


If the tag causes the ball to come loose, it's no tag. If the tag is completed and he is either reaching in to get it or the fall causes it to come loose, it is likely an out. What you are deciding is does he have control before, during and just after the tag. If he drops it after the tag, decide if the tag caused the drop, if no then why it came out is irrelevant.

NCAA has specifically referenced the Varitek play as an example of a non-tag. In that case, contact with the ground caused a fumble after the tag was completed.

I would disagree but what can I say?