Defensive timeout

Where does it say that there has to be an injury or a shoe falling off to get "time". I have played, watched, and umpired a lot of ball. I have NEVER seen an ump refuse time for any reason or even no reason at all when the action on the field has ended. This goes for offense or defense.  Player slide into base...calls time to get up safely...time granted. Batter doesn't like how long pitcher is taking while he is in box...calls time...time granted. SS wants to chat with pitcher (maybe about his plans for the evening)...calls time...time granted.

Can you imagine the reaction at the major (or any knowledgeable) league level if the ump didn't grant time because "he didn't have to" and no other given explanation? That would be the last game that chap would ump. Perhaps that is why some of the umps on this thread are still at the hs level?

Take this example which is more to the point of the original question. I was watching a 11-12 year old game. Men on 1st and second. SS had ball after thrown in from outfield. NO ONE WAS TRYING TO ADVANCE but the two runners were faking making an attempt to advance to try to get the SS to throw the ball to the base (so the other runner might advance). SS is between third and mound holding ball. He calls time. UMP DOESNT GRANT IT DESPITE NO ONE TRYING TO ADVANCE!!!!!!! Defence's manager yells "Time, Ump". Ump doesn't grant it. Coach tells SS to hold onto ball until ump calls time. Ump doesn't call time, holds onto ball watching the runners who are jumping off the base trying to entice a throw. SS watches, Ump watches, etc etc. Why didn't he throw it back to mound? Probably because he felt he had better control over the runners' antics than his 11 year pitcher would. He simply wanted to runners to settle down before throwing it back to pitcher. Maybe he even worried about the pitcher catching the ball. SO WHAT? Runners weren't advancing.

So what do you do, umps?  Force the SS to throw the ball to pitcher ( IN YOUR OPINION) the play hasn't stopped? Force the runners to go back to their bases while (IN YOUR OPINION) the play is continuing? Allow this to go on ad infinitum? The only reason this is continuing is because the ump made a bad judgement about granting timeout and now his ego won't allow him to change his mind.

So what happened? The coach becomes apoplexic and asks (loudly) how long he is going to allow this farce to continue. Ump calls time and throws the coach out of the game. You umps here agree with this? If so, I have to question your judgement and your baseball experience. You use the excuse that you are trying to speed up the game. How was that accomplished?

Yes, the players don't have the ability to call time out without asking for it and the ump granting it. That is how it should be of course. The problem is that the umps here seem to think that the rule is to grant them some kind of royal power and like some cops, the power has gone to their heads. If the folks who wrote the rules of baseball thought they had to worry about the umps having common sense, there jobs would be much harder and the rulebooks much thicker. They assumed umpires would exercise judgement and they were correct because most of the time they do. 

It is hard for me to believe the answers some of the umps here are giving. USE YOUR HEADS!

PS.. I have to agree with the coach who originally asked the question. So long as his infielder was not calling time out from the depths of the outfield because he couldn't possibly make the throw, he has EVERY RIGHT to call timeout once the players have stopped their advancement! It is not ABUSING the rules, it is MAKING USE of the rules (or lack thereof). A good ballplayer does it all the time (in every sport)...that is one of the things that makes him good (smart)!

I have tried to be civil in my response (although this stuff sometimes wants to make me pull my hair out and scream). Just because a guy is an ump and knows the rules, doesn't make him a good ump.

PPS. All logical responses welcome. If someone simply needs to refute me because they can't stand being wrong, spare me. On the other hand, if I missed something and you have a logical solution, I will be willing to admit error. 

 

 

In my example above, men were on first and THIRD, not first and second. Really doesn't make any difference but just wanted to be accurate.

 

Tulo, welcome to the site...

Uhhhh, first of all, you are commenting (and with some emotion, I might add) on a post that is nearly ten years old.  USE YOUR HEAD!  

Second, regarding your example, you may want to refer to the reply by PIAA_UMP.. he is an experienced and accomplished umpire - "Time should not be granted until play is relaxed."  If the runners are as you describe "faking making an attempt to advance to try to get the SS to throw the ball to the base", that would not qualify as play being relaxed.

Additionally, with the situation being runners at 1st and 3rd, it is quite common, particularly at that age level, for the coach to instruct the runners to do just that - have R1 try to advance, forcing the throw from SS, enabling R3 the chance to advance to home.  You cannot assume that no one was trying to advance, particularly when they are showing aggression toward doing so.

Well, you're no help.
What difference does it make if the post is 10 years old? Has something changed in the meantime?

You did not address the solution to the dilemma. The issue that you didn't address is how would you prevent the ss from simply holding the ball while watching the 2 monkeys jumping
On and off the bases?
Did you not read my post? Would you force the ss to throw the ball somewhere (p, 3rd or 1st)? Would you tell the runners to return to their bases. In either case, the ump has no right to do those things IF he is ruling the play is not "relaxed" (although you'll have to show me that term in the rule book.
Or would you simply let the situation run itself out until
The game is called
For darkness?
I can only think of one other choice: GET YOUR
HEAD OUT OF YOUR
BUTT AND GRANT
TIMEOUT.
If you can't understand the situation (which I think you did), either ask me for clarification or if, you can, give me the solution. Noting that someone is an experienced umpire means nothing to me unless it is accompanied by good judgement.

I guess the coaches who are teaching the kids to jump on and off the bases are simply taking advantage of a situation not addressed in the rulebook because the
Rulebook assumes that the
Ump would grant timeout since the runners were not attempting to advance to the next base. Your response coupled with responses of the "experienced" umpires here indicate that perhaps the hope that the umps have good judgement is misplaced.
So unless you have and actual solution, you can skip responding to me. In other words, give me a solution other than calling time out and throwing the coach out of the game so the ump can save face because he didn't exercise good judgement to begin with. (Or maybe you think that is a good solution?)
I'd like you to picture what would happen if some ump wouldn't grant timeout in an MLB
Game with someone like sparky Anderson was the manager. My guess is that the ump would have done his last game.

Perhaps you can cite an example where a MLB ump has ever not granted timeout in a similar situation. I doubt it but I am always anxious to learn.

If you choose to respond again, please give me the solution. So far you're not even close.
I'd love to know what level of baseball you've attained and at what position. If you're even halfway accomplished and played an infield position, please tell me when you were not granted a timeout when you asked and how you resolved that. Just curious.
Thanks for playing.
Ps. I just re read your response to me. If the ss is holding the ball and waiting for one of the runners to ACTUALLY advance, is that not a reasonable strategy by the ss? And since I am sure(?) you'll agree that it is, how long would you allow this to go on? PLEASE "use your head".
(Somehow I am guessing that you're next response won't be any better than your last but I am cautiously hopeful.
Perhaps you can also give me a definition of relaxed and where I can find that term in a rulebook. I've never seen it but I could haves missed it.

Sent from Tom Myslik IPhone

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 4:18 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>
>

Around here after 13u you are not getting an ump to grant you a timeout to get up after sliding into a base. Your players better learn quickly how to keep their hand on the base while putting their foot on the base and stand up. 

BTW I've also seen numerous occasions where the ump would not grant the batter a timeout when he requested it in the box. 

Glad I'm not playing "around there".

Sounds like you play a strange brand of ball there. What is the purpose of not granting a timeout so he can stand up? Certainly not in preparation for higher ball. Is there actually a rule in your rulebook that says that are have you simply all agreed to it? If there is a rule or even if
You all agreed to it, it's ok by
Me. Can't figure out why but that's not my
Problem.

In answer to your next
Response about a batter calling time out
Too late I am wondering what
That has to do with
This discussion?

Considering the possibility that I
Am "off base", I have both
Googled and you tubed "base umpire refuses to grant
Timeout. Not surprisingly, nothing
Came up. Why? Because
It doesn't
Happen. (At least not
In any
League I have played in or watched. Good umps tend to like to avoid farsical situations (as well as keep the game moving.
So far you have avoided my question nicely but
You only have one strike left.
Please excuse my typos. My fingers seem to big
For an iPhone.
Regards



Sent from Tom Myslik IPhone

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 5:27 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>
>

Tulo 

In answer to your next
Response about a batter calling time out
Too late I am wondering what
That has to do with
This discussion

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 5:27 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>
>

Go reread your original post. You sighted it as an example 

I sighted (sic) it as an example of an ump always granting timeout....sigh.
Strike three.

I think I've had enough of this discussion.

Oh my bad.
yes, there are times when an ump won't grant timeout. When a pitcher is
starting his motion is one of them. That is how it should be. That is good
umpire judgement.
Please respond to the situation in question although I know you won't.
Do you happen to be related to my first wife?

"Life is not so short but that there is always time for courtesy."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Tulo/Tom ...'s IPhone - it's been more than 10 years for me, but in U12 or Little League isn't there some rule about the pitcher having the ball on the rubber and requiring runners to be "on the base". 

Beyond that your acerbic followups aren't going to get an answer you seem to want. It seems you want someone to say the umpire was 100% wrong and every other umpire should apologize for him. Doubt that'll happen. Comparing U12 umpires to MLB umpires is as insane as comparing the level of play of U12 to MLB.

Direct your ire at the coach of the team with the dancers. Find a coaching board and ask a similar question about why a coach would do that and what can you do as an opposing coach, parent, uncle, grandparent.

In the long run when those players get older, trust me the pitcher knows what to do and some batter pays for it later.  The 1b-man also knows how to make a targeted and perhaps too hard of a slap on a future pickoff throw to send a similar message or to "slide" his foot across a bag at the last moment to cause some future runner to trip as he crosses. IOW: the players eventually take care of things, but at U12 it's all about the adult coaches.

I have another solution... You could "volunteer" to work as an umpire in a local league near you. You'll start with a bunch of U10 games, but if you're good you can graduate to the U12 games where things are more complicated. Once you're comfortable there, maybe your assignor will throw you bone and assign you to a U12 travel game. Here some coaches think they're Tommy Lasorda, Earl Weaver, or Billy Martin. Trust me you'll start out with the "really good team" vs. the "really bad team" until your assignor believes you've had enough seasoning to get one of those better games. Until then you'll have plenty of practice honing your game management skills and will most definitely run into your same situation and have to do something about it.  When you call time, expect Billy Martin to ask you what rule allowed you to do that. When you don't know, he could protest, but more than likely he'll say something you don't like and tell you about your rectal cranial inversion.  When you get back to your car after the game, expect your assignor to have left a message for you to call him because he already received a call from Billy Martin because I know you tossed him. And now you'll have to explain your actions to your assignor. If you use the same tone with him as you've written here - it's back to U10 baseball or you just decide to hang up your umpire gear.

The defensive time outs start at a very early age.  And I agree it is to prevent the runners from advancing on an error.  I agree with other umpires who opined... I do not grant time unless it is warranted.   So when will I grant time?

1. When there is an injury / equipment repair (ie: catchers shins need to be re-clipped)

2. When a kid slides safely into a base and the defender is just holding the ball on him.

3. Coaches mound visit / discuss a ruling.

4. Break away bases need to be re-positioned.

And when the player or coach requests time and I am not granting it - I simply reply "No - you don't need it"

I have another solution... You could "volunteer" to work as an umpire in a local league near you. You'll start with a bunch of U10 games, but if you're good you can graduate to the U12 games where things are more complicated. Once you're comfortable there, maybe your assignor will throw you bone and assign you to a U12 travel game. Here some coaches think they're Tommy Lasorda, Earl Weaver, or Billy Martin. Trust me you'll start out with the "really good team" vs. the "really bad team" until your assignor believes you've had enough seasoning to get one of those better games. Until then you'll have plenty of practice honing your game management skills and will most definitely run into your same situation and have to do something about it.  When you call time, expect Billy Martin to ask you what rule allowed you to do that. When you don't know, he could protest, but more than likely he'll say something you don't like and tell you about your rectal cranial inversion.  When you get back to your car after the game, expect your assignor to have left a message for you to call him because he already received a call from Billy Martin because I know you tossed him. And now you'll have to explain your actions to your assignor. If you use the same tone with him as you've written here - it's back to U10 baseball or you just decide to hang up your umpire gear.

This reminds me of the scene in Good Will Hunting - about taking the job at the NSA.

In reply, I would point out that 11-12 yo games usually have a time limit so waiting for darkness to call the game is probably not the actual outcome.  The game clock would expire.  If the defensive team did not wish that to happen, they should continue with the game, get ball back to pitcher and go from there.  If offensive team did not wish that to happen, their coach would yell at the two little kids to stop jumping around and get back on base.  In the meantime, the ump should closely watch the action and allow time when/if appropriate (maybe CF gets a bad tummy ache and has to sit down in the dugout).

TULO - please let us know your opinions on icing and long distance running for baseball players.

Thanks for your answer.

Yes, in little league there is that rule about getting the ball back to the
pitcher. But as you can see from the link below, there is an argument from
"knowledgeable, experienced" little league umps about what that actually
means (circle? rubber?). Perhaps the answer is that the rules in the little
league rulebook didn't anticipate that a coach would actually coach that
tactic or maybe they just assumed the ump would have enough sense to not
allow it to go on (both big assumptions). There is a no stealing rule.
There is a rule about the runners having to return to the bag when the
pitcher has the ball (although they seem to left it unclear about what that
really means (rubber, pitching "circle"). Obviously since these rules
exist, LL is aware that at a certain age, the skill level of many of the
players is at the level where a pitcher might not be able to hold a runner
on or a catcher throw a runner out. They made an attempt to keep the game
from becoming a farce, realizing that some coaches might take advantage of
the age and experience and skills of the players. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS
ATTEMPT. I am a huge fan of LL and my family (3 brothers and a son who all
played college ball) have been involved in it since 1951). I am not a huge
fan of competitive leagues at this age simply because it CAN become a
"coaches game" (and often does). That is my choice. I have no problems with
folks disagreeing with that opinion. I played and coached little league
and umpired at the high school level (yes, it is a tough job, mostly
because of coaches) and I LOVE the game which is why I despise seeing
anyone allowed to make a farce of it.

You are exactly right that ire should be directed at the opposing coach and
when I was playing in a small town in the 50's, I can assure you that it
would have been (by the rest of the townsfolk). I assume the reason that
these antics never happened back then is for just that reason (or perhaps
the umps were smart enough not to let it happen). However, I don't think it
should be necessary to police the game through such ire. Do you?

I also agree that at some level (I'd say above age 12), the players have no
need for such a rule and can take of the situation on their own.

Now, back to the situation at hand. If some coach decides to make a farce
of the game by coaching his runners to employ such tactics, how can it be
handled (other than with ire)?
1. The ball can be returned to the mound (rubber?, circle?). This is
probably the best solution and the one that the LL rule makers envisioned.
2. The fielder can simply hold the ball and watch the runners in the hopes
that they may stray a bit too far or until the umpire tires of this and
allows a timeout. I hope you agree that this is a legal tactic. As a coach
I might very well employ it simply to demonstrate the foolishness of the
other coach or the lack of judgement of the umpire. The umpire would have 3
choices. He could instruct the runners to return to the bases (he has no
authority for that), instruct the infielder to return the ball to the
pitcher while the ball is still in play because of the runners' antics
(again, no authority to direct the players to do anything with the ball
while it is still in play) or do the right thing (IMO) which is to grant
time out since the players are not advancing (just dancing) and move the
game along. That is the ONLY solution that I see is legal for the ump to
do. That is why the ump is given the authority to use his judgement and
grant time out. The alternative is to allow this legal (but within the
rules) charade to go on until nightfall. IMO, the ump MUST make that
decision because he was forced to by the offensive coach. However, once the
coach realizes that the ump will not allow the tactic to occur, it will
stop very quickly without resorting to ire (although I am sure the
offensive coach will complain for awhile), Please tell me where I am wrong
if you feel that I am.

So my beef is with: a. coaches who forget what the purpose playing the game
is at that age level and b. umpires who can't or won't use their heads for
some reason unbeknownst to me. For those who think all umpires are created
equal simply because they may know the rules, I suggest you look up Bob
Davidson. He is an umpire who somehow made it to the MAJORS without any
judgement at all.

Now fortunately the vast majority of coaches and umpires have good
intentions and judgement. My beef is only with the ones who don't. Kicking
a manager out of the game for pointing that out is chickens##t in my
opinion. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen at all levels.

Now to finish my discussion, at higher levels of ball this tactic is not
possible because of the skill level of the fielders. That said, I have
never seen an umpire not grant time out when the runners are not advancing
to the next base. I know "never" is a big word but at my old age, I usually
watch 2 or 3 games a day on MLB.com and have yet to see it. Also having
played a lot of short during better years, I never experienced it. If
someone reading this has a different experience, I'd love to hear about it.
I guess that's partly because most coaches and umps DON'T have "cranial
inversions".

Finally, I apologize for my acerbic tone. I guess being told to use my head
because I was responding to a 10 year old post rubbed me the wrong way. As
they say today...my bad. One of the best things about baseball is that
these "discussions" have and will continue to go on forever. In my "humble"
opinion, it is by far the best game ever invented (despite some folks'
feeble attempt to make a farce of it),

Dissenting opinions welcome.

Now there is an opinion I totally agree with. Thank you.

Icing? I definitely think it shouldn't be allowed in baseball. It slows the
action down too much and is unfair to the goalie.
Long distance running? I don't like anything beyond 90 feet unless I am
trotting.

Those are all valid times to call timeout. However. methinks that hard and
fast rules like that don't leave much (any?) discretion for your judgement
in unusual circumstances.

How would you handle the situation under discussion? Allow the circus to
continue until nightfall (time limit)?

Thanks for your answer.

As I know the LL rules... just having the ball on the mound / in the circle is not enough to stop the runners from advancing.  There are 4 pieces that have to be in place to halt the runners.

1. Pitcher on the mound ready to pitch.

2, Batter in the box

3. Catcher ready behind the plate

4. Umpire in position to call the pitch.

So lets take the example of a walk... runner trots down to 1st.  Before he reaches 1st, the pitcher receives the ball and is standing squarely on the rubber.  The runner never breaks stride, does not hesitate and continues to round 1st and runs to 2nd.  This is 100% legal.  The defense cannot call time until the runner has stopped at a base or "play has relaxed".  One reason time is not granted after a walk when the coach wants a mound visit until the runner has obtained and stopped at 1st.

Now if a runner hits a double and the throw comes in and he is "dancing" off the base as the SS holds the ball... the runner is entitled to run to 3rd as the ball is returned to the pitcher.  The runner is entitled to dance as long as he wants until the 4 criteria above are met... at which time he must return to the base - if he is not advancing - until the ball crosses the plate.  (I have yet to see a batter get into the box while the play was still ongoing ... but if it were the PU should not be behind the plate - so the last piece would not be in place.

If the local Tourny or League has specific rules to prevent this... then those will be applied accordingly.

Now once you move off the 46/60 field, there is no requirement for the runner to return to the base, so the "dancing" is nothing more than a lead.

I never grant time to allow a fielder to throw the ball back to the pitcher...just sayin'.

I confess that when I coached LL I was "that coach".  No I didn't coach my players to dance around while the SS held the ball in confusion, but they would take the extra base on hit, take 2nd on a walk, steal home on the throw back to the pitcher, and generally run wild around the bases against a lesser team while a snowball fight broke out. 

The fact is that I didn't intend to be that coach. I just happened to have a really good Minors team with one very fast kid who had picked up  techniques from his older brother, and two other fast kids who liked what they saw. In subsequent years in Majors I cut out some of that stuff, because opponents were better,  but I did coach the delayed steal because it was very effective and helped us win games, especially if one of our heart-of-the-lineup guys was on third with the bottom of the order at bat.

One day a much more experienced coach talked to me after a Minors game. He said, in a very non-confrontational manner, that as a little league coach he didn't coach techniques that did not translate to the large field and went on to explain his reasoning in detail.  I thought about that a lot, and it did change my approach somewhat during subsequent practices and games,  but I continued to allow my speed guys to steal home because a) I was unwilling to give up that advantage, and b) it is rarely done on the big field after 14U, but still works in some situations and c) LL baseball is a sport of its own for its players, and isn't just preparation for the real game on the big field.

In one of his last games this spring as a HS player my 2017  unintentionally validated point b) when he attempted to steal home for the first time since LL. He had never tried it the old LL way on the throw back to the pitcher.  I'm sure he'd tell you that's because it just won't work.  He had also never tried it when the pitcher went to wind up with him on third - too low percentage and not smart when you're batting #1 or #2.   What he did was break for home on a 3-1 play by the pitcher with a F5 who was a bit lazy about keeping him close.  He was safe by a step.

Thanks for your insight. I have no reason to question it but I wonder if
this is clearly defined in the Rulebook as well as you defined it or have
you gotten further clarification at a clinic? (I don't have a LL rulebook
in front of me)

How would you handle the situation we have been discussing? (runners at
first and third jumping off base to try to entice fielder to throw the ball
while fielder simply holds onto ball and watches them and attempts to get
you to call time out)?

I can't imagine that you could instruct the fielder that he has to throw
the ball back to the pitcher as it is a live ball and I have never seen an
ump been allowed to force a fielder to do something on a live ball. For the
same reason, I have a hard time imagining you tell the runners to return to
base. Would you simply allow the situation to continue or at some point
grant the time out and get the game going again? Perhaps there is (or
should be) some rule that addresses that? If not, it seems to me that the
umpire must exercise some discretion and control, no?

I know I must seem to be obstinate but this situation is certainly not
unheard of as I saw it happen myself. The umpire handled it by throwing the
complaining coach out of the game. Somehow that didn't seem like a good
solution to me. I sincerely would like to know what you would do or is
there some WRITTEN rule covering this?

This situation is obviously unique to LL. As a former player, I would
welcome the runners playing that game as I feel there would be a 80% chance
I could get one of the players with a pretty good chance for both if I
played it right (and they weren't too bright).

Regards

That is fine but doesn't address the issue at hand. Rather than repeat what
I have already written already numerous times, please read my other posts.

inquiring minds want to know (smile)

Tulo posted:

That is fine but doesn't address the issue at hand. Rather than repeat what
I have already written already numerous times, please read my other posts.

inquiring minds want to know (smile)

Huh?

It was interesting to go back and read this post from 2008.  I won't pretend to say I remember this particular exchange but its clear most of this issue was a result of a testy exchange between an umpire and a coach and no so much about the actual processes of requesting and granting time out.  

As this is a HS site, our responses are indicative of the current accepted practices,  umpire training materials , Umpire mechanics manuals and Umpire procedure manuals.  It is not uncommon for youth coaches to not have experience with or even exposure to these resources.

The roster of umpires who responded to that original post were/are highly experienced umpires who have done HS/ College/ and a couple distinguished MiLB umpires. All had had verifiable Professional instruction either through the accepted MLB schools or clinics. We were very fortunate to be able to tap into that wealth of knowledge.

As to calling and granting timeout.....   

A Player or Coach can request time out any time they want. Only the Umpire can grant it. In doing so the Umpire decides if it is appropriate to grant one. In determining if time out should be granted the Umpire takes in account many rule supported game situations.  Specifically an Umpires role is to see that neither team gains an advantage not intended by the rules

The game in question here was youth ball game of about 11-12 year old players. It is very common at that level for time out to be granted quite liberally for instructive purposes or game management.  In the specific case of a youth fielder calling time out to get the ball back into the pitcher, that would not be granted at higher levels.

Let me quote from the NFHS Umpire manual.

"Don’t overdo the time-outs. Let them play unless there is a valid reason for calling time. Don’t call time too quickly when it would prevent the completion of play. Don’t grant a player’s request for time unless he has a bona fide reason. For instance, if a relay man wants time so he can throw the ball to the pitcher, don’t grant it. The offense has a right to any error made on the throw"

Baseball is a game of continous action, and it is not part of the game for Umpires to assist in freezing the runners........that would be granting the defense an advantage not intended by the rules regarding calling time out.

Calling time out for a runner to get up safely is not acceptable above kid ball. Players learn quickly how to keep their hand on the base while putting their foot on the base and stand up. (climbing the ladder).  However if it becomes shenanigans of who holds a glove on the runner the longest, a quick timeout settles that........after 13, those actions are virtually absent from competitive baseball.

I personally will not allow either team to delay the game by playing cat and mouse games with the ball. If it further delays the game a quick timeout when action is relaxed ( a common umpire manual term) quickly gets the game back on track.

If a player gets a mouthful of dirt or pants full after a slide......of course grant all reasonable requests.  

Both situations ( OP and Tulos) seem to stem from the negative interaction between coach and umpire. That could have been avoided. It does seem to occur more  when the youth league players and coaches move up to the more competitive levels. What is acceptable at 11-12 rec league will not be acceptable in HS baseball governed under NFHS rules.

 

Thanks for your reply.

I will confess that I also employed the delayed steal in LL (successfully
in a regional all star game) when I coached. Perhaps I am wrong but I see
that as somewhat different situation as the players at the 11 and 12 year
all star levels should be able to control the runners. LL all star games
are a different animal and I am more in favor of the "anything goes"
approach. I never employed the "jumping on and off the base" tactic
probably (1.) out of respect for the game (I think it looks ridiculous) and
(2.) it isn't a tactic that would likely work at the all star level.

It is a tough question but my answer is that the umps (and coaches) have to
use common sense and not lose sight of the skill level of the kids and why
we are all there..Despite the rule books, there is still (especially at the
lower levels) plenty of room for discretion on the part of the umps (and
coaches). That's why 2 umps can know the rules equally well and yet one
might be better than the other.


Now I expect that I will be (perhaps rightfully) called to task for
inconsistency and being hypocritical. At the all star level I take the
"anything goes" approach. During the regular season (where you are likely
to have a much lower caliber of player), not so much. Hell, if I were
umping, I might even change my approach from game to game depending on how
those particular kids were handling it.

My question addressed a very specific (and I don't think that uncommon)
situation where the game was stalled because of coaching tactics and player
skill level.

I will now put on my helmet, duck in my foxhole and await the mortars
likely to be tossed at me (been there, done that).

Although you may disagree, I think this discussion is a valid one and I am
happy to see some well thought out answers (and admissions). At least I am
enjoying it (smile). Umpiring is a tough and thankless job. Many times it
is damned if you do or don't. All I ask is that they (and the coaches) uses
common sense for the benefit of the kids and game. They are bound to make
someone unhappy but that is the nature of the job. (think heat and kitchen).

PS. I still can't recall an ump denying timeout to a fielder when he has
the situation under control (the term used here seems to be "relaxed"
although I confess to never having heard that before. Is that term used in
rule books now?).
PPS. To start a somewhat different topic, I'd be curious to know if the
folks here are in favor of a definitive strike zone or whether they like
the ump giving the pitcher strikes that are slightly outside the zone if he
can hit that spot consistently (like they used to do with Glavin, Smoltz,
and Maddox)? ( Sorry, I have been accused once or twice of sh**t stirring.
Just my nature, I guess. I probably need to get a life, huh?)

Found this on line.  From the LL rule book.  Does not mention the batter, but I have yet to see a catcher ready to receive and a pitcher ready to pitch without a batter in the box ... but I guess it could happen....

7.13 - Little League (Majors) and Minor League: When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher’s plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher’s box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter

As for the strike zone ... I'll refer you to another thread on this site ... that topic was covered extensively.

 

Thanks for your reply. You can ump my games anytime.

I did learn something from you. Perhaps I haven't been paying enough
attention but I am surprised to learn that a player who has just slid into
a base (at any level) is not automatically granted time out if he requests
it. I am sure you are right. I will watch more closely in the future.

Thanks again.

PS. Being new here I probably am out of line talking about various levels
of ball. I completely missed that this is a hs forum...as the kids say, my
bad.

If you wish to start new topics, please do so vice asking in a current one.

I will caution you (based on your parenthetical comment) that topics for the sake of bashing umpires or simply arguing are not welcome here. 

thanks

Biting my tongue...hard.

There's a world of difference in the game management skills of a seasoned umpire as opposed to one learning the ropes in a LL rec game. The adage of if I knew then what I know now applies quite nicely too. If the dancing had occurred in a game I was umpiring when I was first starting out, I can say without a doubt I'd be hard pressed to do what I'd do now.  The phrase "let's play baseball" comes to mind as does, coach remember the sportsmanship talk we had before the game?  I'm sure the score would come into play, as would the inning, and situation.  There's perhaps a few other ways to send a message to a coach that's "over the top". Suffice to say, you'll know it when you see it.

Great answer (among a few others). Thank you.


Sent from Tom Myslik IPhone

> On Jun 9, 2017, at 5:16 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>
>

Tulo, 

I've umpired high school baseball in multiple states and can assure you that the "around here" where umpires don't grant time outs to facilitate throws to the mound includes a lot of territory.

Unnecessary time outs add unnecessary minutes to games. They can affect the fairness of competition. And they retard the development and game awareness of players. Good umpires discourage them the same way we require batters to stay in the box when they want to wander off to slow things down and gain an edge.

At the high school level, the offense and defense are expected to protect themselves or the ball from the conclusion of one play's action until the attainment of what we call relaxed action, which is a state where the live ball is under control and neither team is likely to try any surprise funny business because the other team would easily thwart it.

Teams are expected to be able to return the ball to the mound without needing a flag of truce to accomplish the job. If they can't manage the job without throwing it away or getting startled by dancing base runners, I won't help them get it done. 

When I'm presented with a request for a time out whose need isn't readily obvious, the factors I consider include:

--Whether the time out is intended to facilitate a baseball action that should be accomplished without the aid of a time out or a non-baseball action.  Baseball actions include regaining one's feet after sliding into a base and returning the ball to the mound. Non-baseball actions include shaking the dirt out of one's pants, delivering protective batting gear to a coach, and meeting on the mound to discuss strategy.  I will generally grant time for appropriate non-baseball actions, but only after the baseball action has been completed.

--Whether either team might gain an advantage from the time out. The very act of requesting a time out for a baseball action tells me the team thinks the time out would benefit them. 

--Whether the non-baseball action can be accomplished without a time out. I've lost count of the times catchers requested time to visit the mound with no runners on base and I assured them the batter is unlikely to steal first base.

Finally, as one of my brethren pointed out, baseball is a continuous action game. The ball is live except when there's a good reason for it not to be live. 

I've had conversations on this subject with lots of coaches. My usual explanation is something along the lines of, "Coach, at this level, the defense needs to get to ball back to the mound to show me the play is really over before I can grant them time." It's never been a big deal. Some mild surprise, but no outrage.

I can understand what you are saying. I personally never remember not being
granted time out as a shortstop. That could be due to a number reasons. 1.
times have changed and the game is more sensitive to time of play. 2. I
never encountered an umpire who cared. 3. I never abused my time out
requests. 4. I suffer from CRS disease (can't remember sh**t).

My more important question was the "dancing" issue in the lower level
leagues. A number of folks gave me the answer I felt was proper and a
number gave me other answers.

I am satisfied that the topic has been discussed sufficiently. I never
expected unanimity. I think (hope) that some of the less experienced umps
may have learned something. Maybe even some of the older ones did too.
There were some great answers IMO.

Oh, and I loved your "stealing first" comment.

You guys realize the SS can run the ball to the pitcher if the runners are dancing off the bases?  Running then handing off the ball eliminates a bad throw without calling time.

Last time I checked throwing and catching are slightly important skills needed to play baseball.  It seems to me that "U small digit number ages" would be the best time to teach this even if it means making bad throws until they learn.

Last time I checked baseball careers - playing, coaching and umpiring - have never ended over trying to make this play.

I agree with the umpires on here.  Don't call time just to call time to help out the defense.

 As age and skill level increases this play is NEVER an issue. In fact it would almost certainly lead to at least one out and therefore dancing is not done by the baserunners. 

If a coach of the 8/9 even 10 age players want to make a farce of the game, that is his prerogative, I guess. 

So which are you suggesting? ...running the ball back to the pitcher or having him throw it back "even if he makes a bad throw"? Some umps here say that the runners must return to the bases when the pitcher has the ball in the area of the mound. Others say he must toe the rubber. Which is it, please? Is there a rule citing this or is it up to the individual ump?This question is not relevant at the higher levels but certainly may be at the lower with your solution.

Some umps  (the ones I agree with) seem to think that the "dancing" tactic is ridiculous and "unbaseball-like" and should be discouraged by one means or another. If the ss (or defensive coach) decides NOT to do either of your solutions and simply hold the ball and watch the idiocy until a. the runners get tired of dancing b. the runners (and offensive coach) gets tired of  looking ridiculous, what would you do? (It is the tactic I might chose in order to embarrass the opposing coach or ump for allowing this tactic). You certainly must agree that you can't force the ss to either throw or walk the ball back to the pitcher while time is not called. How long would you let the charade go on?

So my respectful questions are: 1. would you allow the dance to go on until nightfall? 2. since the runners are not attempting to advance (simply confuse) when is the play "settled"? 3. when are the runners obligated to return to the bases? 4. You say you agree with the umps but which ones? They have voiced different opinions. 

The point is that there is really no black and white rule for this situation and I think if the offensive coach is not going to use common sense then the ump must. I would be embarrassed to be the ump who didn't take charge so that we could "play ball". Wouldn't you be?

Rules are a guideline but the umps' (and coaches) judgement and common sense is another integral part of a well played game, no? With all due respect, sometimes folks can't see "the game for the rules". If the coaches are not bright (or experienced)enough to see what they are truly there for and the ump doesn't remind them then I think the ump is guilty of letting the inmates run the asylum.

All in my opinion course. I hope I am not accused of "umpire baiting" (which I didn't realize I could do off the field in a discussion forum).

Regards

PS. My favorite answer if the coach can't figure it out for himself? "Let's play ball" with a look of disgust toward the offending coach. That, IMO, would handle the situation and the coach while the ump would stay basically invisible (as he should).

 

 

 

Tulo posted:

Rules are a guideline but the umps' (and coaches) judgement and common sense is another integral part of a well played game, no? With all due respect, sometimes folks can't see "the game for the rules". If the coaches are not bright (or experienced)enough to see what they are truly there for and the ump doesn't remind them then I think the ump is guilty of letting the inmates run the asylum. 

It is not my job to tell or teach the coach how to coach.

Tulo you are putting way too much effort into this just to say you are right.  Look I'm going to spend a lot of time in practice teaching throwing and catching.  I'm going to put my best guys up the middle so throwing and catching shouldn't be much of an issue.  If I'm playing against a bush league team who wants to do stuff like dancing I'll tell my SS to run it in to a point where he feels comfortable making a throw to the pitcher.  I don't care what the umpire says, thinks or do in this situation.  I know if my pitcher is on the mound with the ball then we are getting ready to play ball which is the goal of the game.  If my kids make a mistake and throw the ball away then I have a ready made practice plan for the next day on what we need to do to get better.  It's not the end of the world if we lose that game on an error at that age.  I'm looking big picture and preparing them for further down the road.  If  some slapdick coach wants to teach his guys to play games then it's on him.  I'm not going to get caught up in those stupid games.

I can't argue with that attitude. It is a mature way to handle it.
We all want to be right but it is a bit more than that.

This is a forum for discussion and learning. The game is too good for some
"slapdick" to make a mockery of it or for an umpire to allow them to. I
think the discussion may have opened some eyes and some folks (coaches and
umpires) may think twice the next time it happens.

I congratulate you on being able to simply know that it is "on him".
I ,OTOH, think there is some value to waking the offending parties up to
their actions (especially in a discussion forum) and to hopefully have
them change their ways in the future.

So not only do I want to be right, I want to change the world. (smile)

Regards

PS There have been some very good answers here. Yours is one of them.

Thank you and this site is awesome when it comes to discussing baseball.  You won't find any place better.  I do understand where you're coming from because it is frustrating when you're going against a bush league coach.  I'm a high school coach and it happens at my level.  There's nothing more I want to do than grab him by the shirt and tell him how wrong he is and to stop making a travesty of the game because his kids deserve better.  But nobody bestowed that upon me.  Nobody came up and gave me a sheriff's badge that says "protector of the integrity of the game".  I have a lane and I'm going to stay in it.  What I can do is beat the h**l out of his team and maybe send that message.  I can control that but I have no say in what he does no matter how bad I want to.  This is a valuable lesson you can teach your kids - there are idiots out there and you can't convince them they are idiots because they are idiots.

Hope you stick around and enjoy the discussions on here.

coach2709 posted:

Nobody came up and gave me a sheriff's badge that says "protector of the integrity of the game".  

And I will add that despite what many people may think, umpires don't have that, either...and the umpires that do think that are the ones that find themselves in trouble pretty quickly.

Our job is not to make the game fair. It's to ensure the game is played in accordance with the rules and that neither side gains an advantage or is put at a disadvantage not intended by those rules. Sometimes, that can be very unfair. 

Doing a 9U District game last night.  Kid slides into 2nd.  Ball no where near the bag (he only slid because coach yelling "get down"... that can start a whole other conversation).  Base runner raises hand and calls time.  I simply reply "you don't need it"... kid smiles - game goes on.