Define An Error

D, I wouldn't be able to make a correlation between a drag bunt and an infield popup. Too many variables. (L or R hitter, where's the placement, was there a reasonable expectation of the play being made) It's not like you can't bunt for a hit.

But a catchable IF popup....isn't a hit.

I've seen any number of MLB scoring calls I've disagreed with; many are announced as changed later in the game. When my son was young we used to refer to Ozzie Smith Errors; E's would be called on Ozzie when he didn't make a play.....that the overwhelming majority of other MLB SS wouldn't have even gotten close to.

So what do you call it? It has to be something? Hit/error/FC/sac? What is the call and do you give an error to somebody?

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
How is that not a hit? A good drag bunt does the same thing and I thought that was a hit. Can you give an error to someone when 2 players could have made the play? Who would you give the error to and how would you score it? Just curious. I have seen it as a hit in MLB.

I don't know how you can compare a pop up to a drag bunt. On a good drag bunt a fielder does not have an easy play. A popup is an easy play unless it's wind blown. Sometimes wind blown popups can be hits. The play wasn't easy.

How about a drag bunt when you have the pitcher, first and second all going for the ball? One of them peels off to get back to first but is too late? I consider that a mental error also. Do you score an actual error or a hit? And how do you score the pop up? How do you determine who gets the error when 2 or 3 guys could have made the play? I assume it is an error if you don't score it a hit.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
So what do you call it? It has to be something? Hit/error/FC/sac? What is the call and do you give an error to somebody?

No one can make a judgement because you say drag bunt. It would have to be seen. I can tell you if the hitter is bunting for a hit and is thrown out, even if the runners advance it's not a sacrifice. He didn't attempt to sacrifice. He attempted to get a hit. A drag bunt is usually like a slow roller. It has to be seen to determine the degree of difficulty in making the play or if a play on the ball is even possible.

If nobody covers first in time then you have a mistake by someone. Somebody blew their coverage. Back to the pop up scenario. What do you call it if you don't call it a hit? Do you give an error to who you think should have caught it? It has to be scored something.

If the infielders do a rain dance around a pop and it drops, the scorer has to make a judgement on who should have made the play.

D-Man, on Buzzard's scenario, I'll stick by my original answer:

Posted April 09, 2009 09:54 AM
B, you don't say if there were men on base, so I'm going to assume none (had there been a man on 1st, for example, I would presume 1B to be covering). Without seeing the angle each had on the ball, I'd probably suggest 2B gets the error, keeping in mind that if there were any question about the catchability of the ball, 1B should have been on 1B in case of a throw.

To me, the collective brain cramp doesn't override the fact that the ball was catchable. And if that isn't enough, probably also fieldable enough that the runner could have been thrown out at first....if they hadn't been having that meeting

So the scorer decides who should have caught it and gives an error. Tough luck to someone. So that is a mental error if nobody touched it? I never knew you could give those. Dang hard to pick who gets it. I know it is HTBT.
Thanks.

It's not a mental error. It was a catchable ball and nobody caught it. Without seeing the play, we are making educated guesses as to who would get the error; at the game, we would have been able to determine whose ball it was.

The pitcher's parents would like our call of E .

I am obviously not a high end, full time scorer. But if you have 2 or 3 kids that could have caught it, it has to be a mental error on those 2/3 kids part. They all could have had it except nobody took charge. Is that just a traditional scoring kind of thing? How do you give it? One kid calls it, the other charges in and distracts the kid from catching it because he thinks he is going to get ran over. Ball drops. Who is at fault?

I'm not saying there wasn't a mental mistake. Of course there was. But there isn't a provision for mental mistakes in the rules. There is, however, a provision for a hit ball being called an error when it could have been fielded with ordinary effort. And, in the popup scenario, Ordinary Effort was not employed. Error. QED.

Thanks.

quote:

I said...I might score that an infield hit and 'caught stealing'...
RJM said...
The correct scoring would have been fielder's choice. No one was stealing since the hitter put the ball in play.

You're 100% right...Caught stealing? I must of had a brain cramp...

I looked at my book last night and found almost exactly the same play in Tuesday's game...runner on second and ball hit to 3B...3B looks runner back and decides runner has committed and throws to 2B for tag...I scored it 5-4, fielder's choice...official book scored it 5-4, hit...

This was the second hit in of a two-hit game...Wouldn't it be a shame for the P if getting the lead runner (on by error) broke up the no-hit bid?

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I am obviously not a high end, full time scorer. But if you have 2 or 3 kids that could have caught it, it has to be a mental error on those 2/3 kids part. They all could have had it except nobody took charge. Is that just a traditional scoring kind of thing? How do you give it? One kid calls it, the other charges in and distracts the kid from catching it because he thinks he is going to get ran over. Ball drops. Who is at fault?

Whose fault can't be determined without seeing the play. There are zones that are usually certain fielder's responsibilty. Pops on the right side are usually the responsibility of the first baseman. Pops on the left side are usually the responsibility of the third baseman. If the ball gets back on the outfield grass now it's more likely to be the responsibility of the second baseman and shortstop respectively.

I'm not a top end scorer. I was never an official scorer until this year. I knew most situations. I've always read through umpiring boards to learn things that would help me as a coach. I learned the rest quickly.

As a coach I saw 2 types of errors. Mental and Physical. Not catching a ball or throwing the ball away is a physical error. Not knowing the number of outs or getting picked off a base etc etc is a mental error. I could always work with the kids through practice with the physical errors but the mental things are tough.

D-man and Orlando…you both argue great points on my pop-up scenario (and both sides were the struggle I was having when scoring this.) I thought back over it, and here is the full scenario.

Two outs, runner on 2B with a left handed hitter up. Short is working the runner, both 2B and 1B are back a bit (as there are two outs). The pop up is hit dead between 2B and 1B just past the pitchers mound. All three players (1B, 2B and P) converge on the ball and then see each other and stop (not wanting to crash into the others)….this results in the ball dropping right between them all. The runner on second broke on the hit and rounded third…fortunately, our second baseman saw this and as the ball caromed slightly his way, he bare-handed it and made a perfect throw to the plate where our catcher blocked the plate and got the tag down for the third out.

My initial reaction as this happened was that it was an error on the 1B-man…but then the more I thought about it, both he and 2B probably had just as good a shot at making that play as the other (the pitcher really had no chance and probably should have just stayed on the mound in order to not be a distraction.) Since I couldn’t really determine who to charge the error to…or even if it was a scoreable error (or a mental one)….it had to be scored as something, I chose hit. Maybe the right answer is just picking one of the fielders and charging them with an error….that just seems awful arbitrary, but maybe that is what was called for in this situation.

Thanks for your input….I could talk about this stuff all day

Since the runner was tagged out on the play, why isn't it scored as a 'Fielder's choice'?

The runner was on second and was thrown out at the plate. No fielders choice.

Because it's a Continuation Play. The runner was on his way home because of the delay in ballhandling on the popup. The fielders didn't choose to go after the runner at home instead of the batter-runner (Fielder's Choice); they went after him because of their own delay in play that the runner was attempting to take advantage of.

quote:

Because it's a Continuation Play.

My feelings exactly...It's like when a 1B scoops up a bad throw. You don't mark it E6. If they get an force out on the play it definitely isn't an error.

But I understand the point of the runner being on second. If the hit was a single to left and the runner was thrown out trying to score I would score that a 'Hit' that advanced the runner to third and 7-2 putout when he tried to go home (IMO, two plays, not a continuation of the 'hit' play)

But in the previous case I just really don't want to score it a 'hit' and throwing out the runner gives me a chance to score it so it will show up in the offensive stats as it should have been (an out, no hit, inning over)

It would be a lot easier to score if players didn't make bonehead plays...

quote:

Since I couldn’t really determine who to charge the error to…or even if it was a scoreable error (or a mental one)….it had to be scored as something, I chose hit. Maybe the right answer is just picking one of the fielders and charging them with an error….that just seems awful arbitrary, but maybe that is what was called for in this situation.

correct

quote:

It would be a lot easier to score if players didn't make bonehead plays...

At least as the kids get older you don't sit there scratching your head wondering what you just saw.

Age has nothing to do with it. I saw the SS go to second for a force out 2 days ago in the Diamondbacks/Rockies game for the final out of the inning. The second baseman thought the SS was going to first and didn't have his foot on the bag because he wasn't expecting a throw. Safe all around. They called it a hit. I guess the scorekeeper liked the 2B better than the pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Age has nothing to do with it. I saw the SS go to second for a force out 2 days ago in the Diamondbacks/Rockies game for the final out of the inning. The second baseman thought the SS was going to first and didn't have his foot on the bag because he wasn't expecting a throw. Safe all around. They called it a hit. I guess the scorekeeper liked the 2B better than the pitcher.

Hesitation does not constitute an error. The "hit" call is correct. The ball was not mishandled or misthrown.

There was no hesitation. He was standing behind the base, about a foot away when he recieved the throw, the runner beat him to the base when he tried to step on it. I understand the ruling on the pop up, I just don't get why one is an error and the other is a hit. Both were bonehead plays with no missthrow or being mishandled and there should have been an out.

Just how it goes I guess.

The ball was misplayed on the error on the popup. The ball was not misplayed when the fielder missed the base. There has to be a physical misplay on the ball. Believe it or not, if a first baseman fields a grounder and stands there while the runner comes down the line and runs through the base, it's a hit. I don't make the rules. I only read them and learn them.

That is a great example RJM. Thanks. It is just pretty nutty.

Some of the rules are screwy. I've had parents I consider friends get upset with me. They'll say my decision didn't make sense. Sometimes it doesn't to me. But it's the rule. The parent of a pitcher got in my face one time. The coach had to leave the dugout and stop it. The guy got real upset when I told him to go read the rule book before he gets in my face.

It's amazing how many youth coaches don't know the rules and don't realize FED rules are different than OB rules. The call you see on tv may be different in a high school game. Now I just tell parents, "You've seen the play. Results on the net at eleven" like a tv news teaser.

10.13 An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.

NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.

NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules.


It is what it is!