This has been a fascinating thread. I think Smokey makes some great points but it may not be all that complicated. Of course there are some great players who choose to play in the North. In general however, I think many of the better players are migrating to the South because they believe they will get more exposure down there. Ohio has the same problems as Illinois as far as baseball recruiting goes. When it comes to football however, Ohio State can recruit from any state in the nation. Weather doesn't seem to be a factor when you produce All-Americans and future NFL players like they do.
I think one factor that has been overlooked in this discussion is the recruiting and baseball budgets of the southern schools vs their northern brethren. This should not be viewed as a sole excuse, but it is definitely a factor. In addition to the warm weather and better playing environments (competitively and facility-wise), one must consider that many of the southern programs have baseball recruiting budgets far superior to those of schools in the north. This can be attributed to the fact that at many of these schools, baseball is a money making sport for the athletic department.
One only needs note the new deal the University of Texas signed for the naming rights to their baseball stadium ($13 million). That certainly is not happening up here.
All these factors make you wonder why Illinois programs do such an amazingly POOR job of maintaining and developing quality contacts with the state HS programs and with many of the state baseball academies. As a HS coach and academy instructor, I have had a difficult time getting interest from state schools in a number of my players/students. However, these are the same players that then went on to play in the Big Ten, Big East, ACC, Ivy League, and a number of smaller east coast and southern program. Are they the "marquee" names? No, but they are solid second level ballplayers very capable of playing at the D1 level--as proven by their ability to make it at other schools. Additionally, I have heard this same gripe from a number of other HS coaches.
If you can't recruit with the "big boys" for the "marquee" names for whatever reasons, then it becomes imperative that you recruit "intelligently" for the "diamonds in the rough." Many a quality basketball program has been built by recruiting this type of ballplayer and then coaching them up.
Seems like all the Illinois programs (save MAYBE UIC which does make an effort to build local relationships) are missing the boat on their recruiting.
One only needs note the new deal the University of Texas signed for the naming rights to their baseball stadium ($13 million). That certainly is not happening up here.
All these factors make you wonder why Illinois programs do such an amazingly POOR job of maintaining and developing quality contacts with the state HS programs and with many of the state baseball academies. As a HS coach and academy instructor, I have had a difficult time getting interest from state schools in a number of my players/students. However, these are the same players that then went on to play in the Big Ten, Big East, ACC, Ivy League, and a number of smaller east coast and southern program. Are they the "marquee" names? No, but they are solid second level ballplayers very capable of playing at the D1 level--as proven by their ability to make it at other schools. Additionally, I have heard this same gripe from a number of other HS coaches.
If you can't recruit with the "big boys" for the "marquee" names for whatever reasons, then it becomes imperative that you recruit "intelligently" for the "diamonds in the rough." Many a quality basketball program has been built by recruiting this type of ballplayer and then coaching them up.
Seems like all the Illinois programs (save MAYBE UIC which does make an effort to build local relationships) are missing the boat on their recruiting.
Great post K13.
300K VS 60K, especially combined with the weather, is no contest at all.
300K VS 60K, especially combined with the weather, is no contest at all.
I have a question here. I have read each post on this topic and I sit looking for the right answer on my own. Since my son commited to UI I have followed this forum closely. I am looking at the current UI roster and find that 24 of the 33 players are from Illinois with 2 more from Wisconsin and 2 from MO. Is this not recruiting "in state"?
I don't consider my son a Blue Chipper by any means,(He was at PG National, East Coast Pro and the PG Aflac Showcase as well as being in BA Top 300 06' players). He chose UI over many southern schools because of the Academics and athletic mix. Some of the southern schools that were recruiting and making offers had average freshamn SAT's in the 800's. We encouraged him to look for a school that if it all ended tomorrow (baseball), you would still pick the school.
We had been to many schools over the past year and he just "felt it" at UI. With the indoor facilities as they are at many of the bigger and better "Northern Schools", many of the same opportunities will present themselves. We encouraged him to attend a school where he could compete for playing time upon arrival. This is often not the case in the south especially when the guy ahead of you is a freshamn All-American.
I don't consider my son a Blue Chipper by any means,(He was at PG National, East Coast Pro and the PG Aflac Showcase as well as being in BA Top 300 06' players). He chose UI over many southern schools because of the Academics and athletic mix. Some of the southern schools that were recruiting and making offers had average freshamn SAT's in the 800's. We encouraged him to look for a school that if it all ended tomorrow (baseball), you would still pick the school.
We had been to many schools over the past year and he just "felt it" at UI. With the indoor facilities as they are at many of the bigger and better "Northern Schools", many of the same opportunities will present themselves. We encouraged him to attend a school where he could compete for playing time upon arrival. This is often not the case in the south especially when the guy ahead of you is a freshamn All-American.
There ARE talented players at Illinois schools. My son turned down offers from "down south" (FGCU for ex.)to play at UIC. Players make decisions for thier own reasons. My kid chose UIC for : a better education/ dual degree (sister school to Coach Merc's son), better finacial offer, and we get to see him play-
PRICELESS. He is not the only player on his team to turn down "the big boys". Talented players will rise to the top no matter where they are.
We too, agree that the Horizon league leaves something to be desired. Changing, and being invited into another conference, is not as easy as it seems. In the meantime, Coach Dee and the A.D. are beefing up the non-conference schedule to compensate. This year's team is strong, they have recruited well.
We were HEAVILY scouted in the fall, and I believe that June will show it. Blanket statements that UIC has not turned out draftees is false. Recently- D. Haehnel (Orioles), M. Hughes (Angels), Jordan DeVoir (Yankees)- and that kid named Granderson isn't doing too bad with the Tigers!
Got a weekend free to freeze in the Chicago Spring? We'd love to have you.IF YOU CAN PLAY HERE- YOU CAN PLAY ANYWHERE! Come on' Beenthere- I'll buy YOU that hotdog!
PRICELESS. He is not the only player on his team to turn down "the big boys". Talented players will rise to the top no matter where they are.
We too, agree that the Horizon league leaves something to be desired. Changing, and being invited into another conference, is not as easy as it seems. In the meantime, Coach Dee and the A.D. are beefing up the non-conference schedule to compensate. This year's team is strong, they have recruited well.
We were HEAVILY scouted in the fall, and I believe that June will show it. Blanket statements that UIC has not turned out draftees is false. Recently- D. Haehnel (Orioles), M. Hughes (Angels), Jordan DeVoir (Yankees)- and that kid named Granderson isn't doing too bad with the Tigers!
Got a weekend free to freeze in the Chicago Spring? We'd love to have you.IF YOU CAN PLAY HERE- YOU CAN PLAY ANYWHERE! Come on' Beenthere- I'll buy YOU that hotdog!
Agree with Merc & stick on alot of points. Merc, your modesty aside BA top 300 is pretty darn impressive. Most Il schools are probably 80% or so in state kids - I think some previous posts just questioned how some kids who end up at some pretty good (top 40) schools aren't recruited heavily by the Il schools.
Some kids want the chance to earn playing time right away and as stick mentioned there are lots of reasons kids pick schools.
My son had July 1 calls/offers from 1 Southern power and 3 of the top 4 Big 12 teams including the Big 12 champ & national champ. For his own reasons he chose NIU and loves coaches & teammates, family likes the proximity ALOT. Some of the schools he looked at had up to 24 pitchers on campus - 8 of those get meaningful innings, the other 16 sit,redshirt, or are run off to juco. They are followed each year by 4-10 new frosh or juco pitchers. The roster is just one of many factors you look at but I'd guess most kids get a feeling of comfort at school they choose.
One of my old coaches (will be a basketball/baseball coaching hall of famer) helped greatly during recruiting. He has sent many players onto colleges and told me 95% of all players will eventually reach their highest level regardless of where they go to school & he felt it was especially true for pitchers.
Some kids want the chance to earn playing time right away and as stick mentioned there are lots of reasons kids pick schools.
My son had July 1 calls/offers from 1 Southern power and 3 of the top 4 Big 12 teams including the Big 12 champ & national champ. For his own reasons he chose NIU and loves coaches & teammates, family likes the proximity ALOT. Some of the schools he looked at had up to 24 pitchers on campus - 8 of those get meaningful innings, the other 16 sit,redshirt, or are run off to juco. They are followed each year by 4-10 new frosh or juco pitchers. The roster is just one of many factors you look at but I'd guess most kids get a feeling of comfort at school they choose.
One of my old coaches (will be a basketball/baseball coaching hall of famer) helped greatly during recruiting. He has sent many players onto colleges and told me 95% of all players will eventually reach their highest level regardless of where they go to school & he felt it was especially true for pitchers.
I think the gripe is not so much the number of in state players on IL teams, as the lack of effort the coaches of IL programs make in reaching out to IL HS coaches or establishing and maintaining relationships with them. Many of the HS coaches in the state work pretty hard to place their ballplayers, and I for one, have had an easier time talking with coaches from out of state programs than getting a call back from in state coaches. I have had ballplayers who had an interest in staying in state, but got more attention from coaches at out of state programs, and thus went on to play there. Without naming names or programs, I know that the quality of the programs that they went on to play at were AT LEAST equal to (and in many cases better than) that of the in state programs they were interested in. I should add, that academic qualifications were NEVER a factor. They all went on to play at schools that were academically as difficult to get into, if not more so.
I understand the time pressures of a college coaching staff (I worked in the athletic department when I was in college). However, if an ACC Head Coach has the time to contact a player's HS head coach, travel coach, and private lessons instructor, I am not sure I understand why a coach from an IL program doesn't have the same time. Of course, maybe that HELPS explain why no IL D1 program can crack the top 80 (RPI). Again, I would exempt UIC from that (at least partially). They seem to do a solid job of maintaining relationships throughout the state. And, considering they are stuck in the Horizon League, they seem to field a highly respectable program.
I understand the time pressures of a college coaching staff (I worked in the athletic department when I was in college). However, if an ACC Head Coach has the time to contact a player's HS head coach, travel coach, and private lessons instructor, I am not sure I understand why a coach from an IL program doesn't have the same time. Of course, maybe that HELPS explain why no IL D1 program can crack the top 80 (RPI). Again, I would exempt UIC from that (at least partially). They seem to do a solid job of maintaining relationships throughout the state. And, considering they are stuck in the Horizon League, they seem to field a highly respectable program.
K13:
Great insight into the recruiting process here in Illinois. Thanks for the posts.
Without commenting on all of the other D1 schools in the state it appears that UIC recognizes the quality of 'home grown talent'. Good for them and I hope they are rewarded with much success on the field.
Regarding HS coaches helping their players with the recruiting process and finding the right 'fit' it really is a 'pig in a poke'.
Our coach is both relatively new to the game and the position (he's one of our football coaches at a school where football is KING).
Information on many local and regional showcases that are vitally crucial to junior class players in their effort to be exposed and recruited was put into a file by our coach never to see the light of day.
After this season when they 'pass the hat' for the coaches I'm going to insist that we purchase for our coach and his assistant a membership into the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association and wrap it in the promotional poster for the HSBBW. Maybe, just maybe, they will start to realize what an important role that they play in this whole process. Still, we won't be holding our breath. We will be more proactive in our upcoming searches for our other children.
Players at our school that qualified for the showcases mentioned above missed opportunities because the information was buried and the necessary effort on the coaches part never occurred. It was a frustrating process for our oldest son because of his coach's total lack of knowledge about the process. Now that our family is hip to the HSBBW we are in a much better position to help all of our younger players.
Fortunately, even in spite of our HS coach, our oldest son pretty much found and negotiated a baseball position at a school and region that he really liked. He's pleased and his mother and me are also pleased with the good 'fit'.
We're grateful to have discovered the HSBBW because it will certainly prove to be very valuable in our search for great 'fits' for our other son and daughters.
Keep up the good posts! We'll keep reading!
Great insight into the recruiting process here in Illinois. Thanks for the posts.
Without commenting on all of the other D1 schools in the state it appears that UIC recognizes the quality of 'home grown talent'. Good for them and I hope they are rewarded with much success on the field.
Regarding HS coaches helping their players with the recruiting process and finding the right 'fit' it really is a 'pig in a poke'.
Our coach is both relatively new to the game and the position (he's one of our football coaches at a school where football is KING).
Information on many local and regional showcases that are vitally crucial to junior class players in their effort to be exposed and recruited was put into a file by our coach never to see the light of day.
After this season when they 'pass the hat' for the coaches I'm going to insist that we purchase for our coach and his assistant a membership into the Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association and wrap it in the promotional poster for the HSBBW. Maybe, just maybe, they will start to realize what an important role that they play in this whole process. Still, we won't be holding our breath. We will be more proactive in our upcoming searches for our other children.
Players at our school that qualified for the showcases mentioned above missed opportunities because the information was buried and the necessary effort on the coaches part never occurred. It was a frustrating process for our oldest son because of his coach's total lack of knowledge about the process. Now that our family is hip to the HSBBW we are in a much better position to help all of our younger players.
Fortunately, even in spite of our HS coach, our oldest son pretty much found and negotiated a baseball position at a school and region that he really liked. He's pleased and his mother and me are also pleased with the good 'fit'.
We're grateful to have discovered the HSBBW because it will certainly prove to be very valuable in our search for great 'fits' for our other son and daughters.
Keep up the good posts! We'll keep reading!
I have been an assistant high school coach for the past 9 years here in NY. What I have found and it is really no surprise, is that there is very little recruiting done with regards to HS baseball. The seasons run together and the way the college schedules are, there is very little time for college coaches to see HS games. On the other hand, I have a summer program and my objective was to get my team in front of as many recruiters as possible. Forget "W's". It was about exposure. We spent 3 straight weeks on the road between FLa and East Cobb. My pitchers threw 2-3 innings per game so we could showcase more kids. The result was, my SS is going to Miss State, 3B to Va Tech, C to Illinois, P to High Point and waiting on a few others who may stay in the NY area.
Once again, as the point of the thread, none of these kids actually received a formal offer other then 1 to a NY school. Granted, other then St John's, NY is not a college baseball hot bead. There are some good programs, but none have the big school flair, nor the indoor facilities that IL,ND,Tenn or Miss State have. Unless your in FL or the deep south you will get some bad weather, cold or rain.
I have also spent a lot of time here on these boards and know about which conferences "over recruit" 18+ scholarships in the fall will become 11.7 by Jan. Which kids signed and we read about, that went South and are now left out, JC or red shirt.. This is not an easy process for player and parent.
Thanks to HSBBW and those here, we have found out which events will put us in front of the most coaches. Even TR who does lots for the kids in the Northeast will showcase his players at the PG event in Jupiter.... Recruiting has become national, but coaches have to still know that in state is cheaper then out of state...It;s tough to get away from the southern mystec. Many of these southern schools also grant instate waivers if you have the grades. Thus allowing the kids from the North to venture down for a shot.
As one ACC coach told me. There are kids who will take $1000 baseball letter (scholarship) just to say they are going to play at ???????. This same kid could have a better offer back home where it's cold or not the "ACC" or "SEC". He wouild definitely have a much better chance of playing.
Once again, as the point of the thread, none of these kids actually received a formal offer other then 1 to a NY school. Granted, other then St John's, NY is not a college baseball hot bead. There are some good programs, but none have the big school flair, nor the indoor facilities that IL,ND,Tenn or Miss State have. Unless your in FL or the deep south you will get some bad weather, cold or rain.
I have also spent a lot of time here on these boards and know about which conferences "over recruit" 18+ scholarships in the fall will become 11.7 by Jan. Which kids signed and we read about, that went South and are now left out, JC or red shirt.. This is not an easy process for player and parent.
Thanks to HSBBW and those here, we have found out which events will put us in front of the most coaches. Even TR who does lots for the kids in the Northeast will showcase his players at the PG event in Jupiter.... Recruiting has become national, but coaches have to still know that in state is cheaper then out of state...It;s tough to get away from the southern mystec. Many of these southern schools also grant instate waivers if you have the grades. Thus allowing the kids from the North to venture down for a shot.
As one ACC coach told me. There are kids who will take $1000 baseball letter (scholarship) just to say they are going to play at ???????. This same kid could have a better offer back home where it's cold or not the "ACC" or "SEC". He wouild definitely have a much better chance of playing.
I am not going to argue the fact that the South is a better place to play or the fact that
they are ahead of the Illinois schools. I will say that as a coach you have to promote your players to people who will listen. I am hearing that these coaches in Illinois are not getting our kids. I don't buy it.. For the most part every year a few kids get out of the cold and go south, but overall our schools are getting our guys in.
Part of the problem in my opinion is that the people and parents beleive that you cant play up north. We have to get South. With that in mind , we loose a few top guys.
Money and budget have much to do with it, but a sound program will take care of that. Do you think Notre Dame was always great? When I played them in College they stunk. They got someone in there who understood what a PROGRAM is and they did what they had to do.
I played at Triton back in the day of Kirby Puckett, Lance Johnson, Jeff Reboulett, we were ranked #1 every year for a while, as far as I can remember that included the West and the South. We were guys from the Midwest who came to play for one of the top programs at that time. One thing I do know is we didnt care if if we were playing Kish or Meza. Yeh, I remember shoveling the snow from turf to practice, but it was part of who and where we were from. Nebraska has heating coils under their field, its cold but they arent bad.
As long as I live here , I will attempt to help the coaches from here. As far as these college guys not returning my calls on kids, it has not happened to me . In fact I receive many calls from our guys.
Maybe the coaching network needs to start working together. The talent is here, its all spread out on 6 different good teams but its here. If we are showing our guys all over the country how much can the schools up here see them. A player is a player, South or North. Get your reps and play with passion.
The up side to the South is better for the Coach who is getting older and wanting to stay warm. What better then to do what you love and keep them old bones working.
they are ahead of the Illinois schools. I will say that as a coach you have to promote your players to people who will listen. I am hearing that these coaches in Illinois are not getting our kids. I don't buy it.. For the most part every year a few kids get out of the cold and go south, but overall our schools are getting our guys in.
Part of the problem in my opinion is that the people and parents beleive that you cant play up north. We have to get South. With that in mind , we loose a few top guys.
Money and budget have much to do with it, but a sound program will take care of that. Do you think Notre Dame was always great? When I played them in College they stunk. They got someone in there who understood what a PROGRAM is and they did what they had to do.
I played at Triton back in the day of Kirby Puckett, Lance Johnson, Jeff Reboulett, we were ranked #1 every year for a while, as far as I can remember that included the West and the South. We were guys from the Midwest who came to play for one of the top programs at that time. One thing I do know is we didnt care if if we were playing Kish or Meza. Yeh, I remember shoveling the snow from turf to practice, but it was part of who and where we were from. Nebraska has heating coils under their field, its cold but they arent bad.
As long as I live here , I will attempt to help the coaches from here. As far as these college guys not returning my calls on kids, it has not happened to me . In fact I receive many calls from our guys.
Maybe the coaching network needs to start working together. The talent is here, its all spread out on 6 different good teams but its here. If we are showing our guys all over the country how much can the schools up here see them. A player is a player, South or North. Get your reps and play with passion.
The up side to the South is better for the Coach who is getting older and wanting to stay warm. What better then to do what you love and keep them old bones working.
deucedoc, perhaps I'm experiencing an area thing. I know that several of our state schools are loaded with Illinois players. Then, the question has to be asked, are they recruiting the right players? I had an opportunity to coach at the collegiate level a few years back. Simply stated, I didn't do it because I didn't want to be away from my family all of the time recruiting. I'm sure that collegiate coaches in our state are working hard. I'd have loved to see some of the kids I coached stay in state.
Gotwood--excellent post. Many HS coaches do need to get more involved--AND MANY HS A.D.'s need to hire serious baseball people to fill their coaching positions.
I'm glad to hear someone is having success getting relatively prompt call-backs from IL programs other than UIC. Hopefully, that trend will continue and spread. Until then, we'll keep making the calls and sending the information, but we'll also keep cautioning our kids to expand their search beyond in-state schools. Apparently, not only are some of the pastures greener out of state, but the desire to do the work to seek out the hidden gems is deeper too.
A brief story to illustrate the state of recruiting in IL. We had a ballplayer who was interested in going to play at an IL program (which shall remain nameless). He was NOT rated among the state top 100 as a JR. The player made numerous phone calls, his parents made numerous phone calls, and the coaching staff made a number of phone calls to the HC on his behalf. No response. The player then went to a camp run by the program (scheduled and paid for before his frustration with the staff). The HC was at the camp and showed great interest in the player and quizzed him on whether he had any interest in the program. The player expressed his interest and the HC went on to ask why the player or his coach hadn't made any contact. BRILLIANT! The player made his decision then and there that he would go ANYWHERE else but that school. He did--he ended up going to a far better program, without any scholarship money or the gaurantee of even making the team. That player ended up starting as a sophomore for his newly chosen program. An IL program lost out on an excellent ballplayer who started early for a far better team in a far better conference simply because they couldn't pick up the phone. Did he fall through the "cracks"? Possibly, but I have heard far too many similar stories from other coaches.
Maybe one of the problems is that it is much easier to retain a HC job in baseball than in basketball or football. Maybe if there was some of the same performance pressure, IL programs (UIC excluded) would kick up their efforts.
I'll point to basketball once again. Look how many solid basketball programs have been built by coaching staffs that worked their butts off to build extended networks of contacts and seek out the "hidden" gems which may take some extended development work.
Disadvantages aside (and there are MANY which have been previously noted in this thread), I refuse to believe that the state of D1 baseball in IL is predetermined to be as bad as it presently is. The ND program was turned around by one man willing to outwork all others. Where there is a will---there is A WAY!
I'm glad to hear someone is having success getting relatively prompt call-backs from IL programs other than UIC. Hopefully, that trend will continue and spread. Until then, we'll keep making the calls and sending the information, but we'll also keep cautioning our kids to expand their search beyond in-state schools. Apparently, not only are some of the pastures greener out of state, but the desire to do the work to seek out the hidden gems is deeper too.
A brief story to illustrate the state of recruiting in IL. We had a ballplayer who was interested in going to play at an IL program (which shall remain nameless). He was NOT rated among the state top 100 as a JR. The player made numerous phone calls, his parents made numerous phone calls, and the coaching staff made a number of phone calls to the HC on his behalf. No response. The player then went to a camp run by the program (scheduled and paid for before his frustration with the staff). The HC was at the camp and showed great interest in the player and quizzed him on whether he had any interest in the program. The player expressed his interest and the HC went on to ask why the player or his coach hadn't made any contact. BRILLIANT! The player made his decision then and there that he would go ANYWHERE else but that school. He did--he ended up going to a far better program, without any scholarship money or the gaurantee of even making the team. That player ended up starting as a sophomore for his newly chosen program. An IL program lost out on an excellent ballplayer who started early for a far better team in a far better conference simply because they couldn't pick up the phone. Did he fall through the "cracks"? Possibly, but I have heard far too many similar stories from other coaches.
Maybe one of the problems is that it is much easier to retain a HC job in baseball than in basketball or football. Maybe if there was some of the same performance pressure, IL programs (UIC excluded) would kick up their efforts.
I'll point to basketball once again. Look how many solid basketball programs have been built by coaching staffs that worked their butts off to build extended networks of contacts and seek out the "hidden" gems which may take some extended development work.
Disadvantages aside (and there are MANY which have been previously noted in this thread), I refuse to believe that the state of D1 baseball in IL is predetermined to be as bad as it presently is. The ND program was turned around by one man willing to outwork all others. Where there is a will---there is A WAY!
We all need to look at the schools on a individual basis and try and determine what direction they are headed : Illinois - new coach,lets give him some time but at least he seems enthusiastic about his program - UIC I do not care how many teams in the top 25 they schedule,if they can't win that pathetic conference what does it mean? NIU - Mathey seems to be heading in the right direction with what he is bringing in.SIU and ISU- tough conference but at least they are trying to sell their schools to the players that they seem to need . Bradley - good coach but I do not see or hear enough about what they are trying to do . WIU - EIU - CHGO ST. I have no idea what is on their agenda although in fairness after talking to the WIU coach I believe he can get some talent down there .
From the past year that I observed alot of Juco's play in this state and the recruiting process that we as a family went through 2 years ago . It seems there are some talented,young , and energetic people that could infuse some badly needed direction and support with regards to the caliber of play of our d1 programs and their relationship with Illinois high school coaches .
From the past year that I observed alot of Juco's play in this state and the recruiting process that we as a family went through 2 years ago . It seems there are some talented,young , and energetic people that could infuse some badly needed direction and support with regards to the caliber of play of our d1 programs and their relationship with Illinois high school coaches .
Let's hope so!
I posted a web site on another thread yesterday. It was in yesterdays USA Today.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp .
This web site will give you all the information you may be looking for. Take a look and compare North vs South. Recruiting budgets, program budgets, salaries, travel, number of coaches, male vs female etc.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp .
This web site will give you all the information you may be looking for. Take a look and compare North vs South. Recruiting budgets, program budgets, salaries, travel, number of coaches, male vs female etc.
An example of this was this past spring/summer with Barrington's Eric Marshall. Here is a 6'2 RHP (skinny kid) throwing 88-89 (maybe hit over 90), 18-1, 0.90 career ERA, draft pick, great curve, workhorse, great student, and no one from Illinois colleges recruited him. TCU picked him up late summer and he is having a great fall season. He could be one of the top 8 pitchers at TCU, as a freshman. I remember talking with this kid and his father and they were very worried that this kid wouldn't be able to play D-1 somewhere. This is one situation I really couldn't understand but I'm sure other coaches have many similar examples of their own.
A lot of people missed on Marshall, I think they will be sorry they did.
Great example Huskie...and he played in a program where the HC has great contacts. Just another fine example of IL programs not digging deep enough. I can think of a couple other solid pitchers from last year's class pitching for out of state schools. In one case, I know there was no meaningful contact from an IL school. Now the kid is down south D1--probably going to redshirt. Bet he could have pitched this year at ANY IL school. I know another that is drawing interest from Big East and Ivy League schools. How is it that they were able to "find" him and no IL school could (even make contact, although in his case he wanted to go out of state)?
It is my understanding that Missouri is trying very hard to recruit the best guys in CHI and bring a Big 12 presence to the area.
Anyone have any knowledge on that? I know it is one of the best conferences and they are near the top.
Anyone have any knowledge on that? I know it is one of the best conferences and they are near the top.
That is true Baseball. Was on a visit there last year with 3 Chicagoland kids and they signed 2. Also made their presence known this year. One of their assistants is from the area & they have a nice program that will probably continue to get some kids from here.
Missouri also recruited my nephew here in central Illinois. Was one of his 5 scheduled official visits, but made his decisiion after 2 visits and cancelled the rest.
Many good points on the North/South baseball issues. Being from WI I never followed IL college baseball until my son enrolled at UIC. I have now realized that IL produces many polished HS baseball players. Some blue chippers go South for the reasons previously mentioned. The other problem is the State has a lot of D1 schools which spreads the remaining talent out even more. D1 baseball is a 30 man team and if you want to become competitive on a national level you need a "full" team of quality players year in and year out. With that in mind this leads to what I believe is a huge hurdle that IL teams have in becoming a "player" on a national level. The "full team" has to have quality "out of State players" in order to compete at a national level. The Illinois college residency laws handcuffs already tight baseball budgets. The education, at least at UIC seems top notch, but, the State government has discouraged most out of State students by keeping tuition costs very high. I understand the reasoning that if you rob the out of Staters, you keep the in-state tuition manageable.
As far as UIC goes, Mike Dee has taken what I think is the right approach in developing a program by using baby steps for the last 5+ years. Programs, especially in the North are not made overnight. Dee is establishing an Illinois/Chicago base along with using his WI background to get players. He then selectively goes to the juco system to fill those "holes" needed to make a complete team. An out-of-State juco player brings experience with only a 2 year price tag. UIC took both Nebraska and NC State to the limit last year in the NCAA regionals, that in itself, regardless of conference affiliation, is an accomplishment, and indication of the program direction. That is at least my take on the program direction.
I think with the recruiting process parents and players alike have to realize that making pro ball is still a long shot at any school. Yes, the weather is an issue, but you still have to be on the field in order to be seen, and regardless where you go, if you have the tools they will come watch you play. The important thing is how you prepare with those 4+ months when you can't get outside. Passion and hunger for the game are 2 of the the keys to success, and those two things can be had north or south, with work.
As far as UIC goes, Mike Dee has taken what I think is the right approach in developing a program by using baby steps for the last 5+ years. Programs, especially in the North are not made overnight. Dee is establishing an Illinois/Chicago base along with using his WI background to get players. He then selectively goes to the juco system to fill those "holes" needed to make a complete team. An out-of-State juco player brings experience with only a 2 year price tag. UIC took both Nebraska and NC State to the limit last year in the NCAA regionals, that in itself, regardless of conference affiliation, is an accomplishment, and indication of the program direction. That is at least my take on the program direction.
I think with the recruiting process parents and players alike have to realize that making pro ball is still a long shot at any school. Yes, the weather is an issue, but you still have to be on the field in order to be seen, and regardless where you go, if you have the tools they will come watch you play. The important thing is how you prepare with those 4+ months when you can't get outside. Passion and hunger for the game are 2 of the the keys to success, and those two things can be had north or south, with work.
Outstanding post RZ. Once again, UIC seems to be an exception to the "gripes" posted about other IL D1 programs. Unfortunately for them, they are stuck in the Horizon League. But, give them credit for going outside the conference to schedule top level opponents.
Missouri is attempting to make a presence in the CHI area. I know a team of CHI area players was just down there a couple weeks ago for a tournament. Obviously, they are aware there is some talent (hidden and unhidden) in the area.
Missouri is attempting to make a presence in the CHI area. I know a team of CHI area players was just down there a couple weeks ago for a tournament. Obviously, they are aware there is some talent (hidden and unhidden) in the area.
K13:
Thanks for your comments. Our family, along with other serious baseball families in our high school district, have learned the hard way in regards to expecting help from the coach. It really would be nice to have at least a baseball guy running the show let alone a good one! Obviously if the help usn't there then you have to take matters into your own hands.
Your last couple of posts have been revealing. Thanks.
Thanks for your comments. Our family, along with other serious baseball families in our high school district, have learned the hard way in regards to expecting help from the coach. It really would be nice to have at least a baseball guy running the show let alone a good one! Obviously if the help usn't there then you have to take matters into your own hands.
Your last couple of posts have been revealing. Thanks.
Coach Merc:
I wish you were the assistant or head coach at our high school. Your staff on the summer team should be congratulated on the recruiting help and exposure that you create. Good job.
Huskie8:
Thanks for your story. Eric, his father, and his high school coach were probably really scratching their head over this. It can be very frustrating and perplexing. Thanks to the HSBBW because it goes a long way in lessening the frustration and unraveling the perplexed. situation.
I wish you were the assistant or head coach at our high school. Your staff on the summer team should be congratulated on the recruiting help and exposure that you create. Good job.
Huskie8:
Thanks for your story. Eric, his father, and his high school coach were probably really scratching their head over this. It can be very frustrating and perplexing. Thanks to the HSBBW because it goes a long way in lessening the frustration and unraveling the perplexed. situation.
We all know of some kids we think were overlooked but the story of the Barrington pitcher takes the cake. With size & projection left,great #'s, grades, exposure at a good program, and velocity you'd think he's a slam dunk for the top of everyone's list.
Was he always upper 80's when he was seen? Glad to hear he ended up in a nice situtation.
Was he always upper 80's when he was seen? Glad to hear he ended up in a nice situtation.
I saw a lot of Eric Marshall and I think that the reason he may have not been recruited like he ought to have been was that he didn't fit the profile that big schools are looking for. He isn't really big, and I don't think he threw close to 90, particulary on a regular basis. He probably was mid-eighties (we all hear about these guys that throw 90, but most often wishful thinking) He had as good a curveball as you are going to see in HS, was unbelieveably clutch and thrived in pressure games. I think that if you can't put a number on it, some recruiters aren't interested. I suppose when they hear that he lost only 1 HS game and had an ERA under one for his varsity career, a recruiter might just think it's just like Lockport's offensive numbers...how can you verify it? Right or wrong if you want to pitch in a big-time program, you better be: Big or projectably big, throw 90, or be a lefty. No one wants to make judgement calls on ability it seems.
I think that Dave Cales, from Chicago Mount Carmel, is now a freshman at Missouri.
fastball, I saw Marshall a couple of times and agree the under 90 thing probably hurt him as some college coaches don't see past what somebody brings to them today, sounds like a lot of coaches not just college. They don't see what they could develop into, just 90 righty mid 80's lefty. By the way no not Barrington for me and also no 06-08 sorry, don'tknow who your thinking about but that's okay. I've coached a lot of kids and teams with no son on them. One more thought, it would be interesting topic to list people like Marshall who were passed over for some reason or another, how many passed on Pojouls I think he was a 6th rounder from a junior college program. Ever see a scouting report on Nolan Ryan that he might be too small, boythere is a lot of guess work with some of these so called scouts and coaches. I am rambling but another coach that goes out his way to get his hs players to the next level is at PHS and PR.
Thanks Fbd, thought there had to be more to the story. Also the poster didn't list his k's, if he was truly 88-90 with great cb he would have struck out 12-15 a game. W-L record can at times be deceiving, saw lots of kids last year with 8-10 wins and very unremarkable era & k/bb ratio.
Been, Cales & lhp Rick Zagone from Prairie Ridge
are at Mizzou. They also have a stud pitcher Culp from Southern part of Il.
Been, Cales & lhp Rick Zagone from Prairie Ridge
are at Mizzou. They also have a stud pitcher Culp from Southern part of Il.
Alot of you guys are saying that UIC has a good program but a bad conference. What exactly do you need to do to get out of such a conference and get into another one thats better all around.
Don't get me wrong, he is a very good pitcher deserving of TCU. His record did reflect his ability...he beat many good pitchers head to head including the mentioned Zagone. All of here in Barrington woudl have liekd to see him agaisnt Lockport downstate, but he pitched game one.
I knew what you were saying FBD and I had heard he was very good. Less size and velocity makes a huge difference for recruiters - whether they were right or wrong with any of these kids we won't know for 2-3 years.
Unfortunately SofG, NOTHING. Baseball never dictates a conference affiliation. IN UIC's case, it is men's basketball that wags the dog. They are in the Horizon League because it is the best fit for their basketball program (among the conferences that are interested in having them). There really isn't another option for them. The MAC is out because they don't play football. The MVC is out because of distance, and probably the lack of stature of the program. If their hoops team can sustain on-the-court and attendance success, maybe they can find their way into the Big East when it expands to a 40 team conference
. Until then, they are stuck in the Horizon League.
. Until then, they are stuck in the Horizon League.
Curious, the only Horizen team mentioned here is UIC. What about Youngstown State? Didn't they win the conference two years back or was that considered a fluke. Just curious if anyone knows.
Dennis, Culp is from Edwardsville.
quote:a lot of you guys are saying that UIC has a good program but a bad conference. What exactly do you need to do to get out of such a conference and get into another one thats better all around.
I'm sure it's very political (academic vs athletic), revolves around all sports in the program, and has very high overhead costs to move. UIC has a nice program but when you draw 150-200 a game it's tough to get off-field support in any direction.
quote:the only Horizon team mentioned here is UIC. What about Youngstown State? Didn't they win the conference two years back or was that considered a fluke.
Youngstown State is always a competitive team but that year I think they were the 7 or 8 seed in the conference tournament and won. Fluke may be the right word, but, they went to Texas in the regionals and did not lay down. Like UIC did this last year with Neb and NC state in the regionals, I believe YSU outhit both Texas and the other regional opponent. The key in the NCAA is depth in pitching and that's where these lower ranking conferences take the hit. Maybe someone can confirm this but I think that pitching is the position the where you see the highest rate of exodus of "blue chip" Illinois players.
Don't under estimate the conference. Year in a year out there are players taken in the draft. The problem is putting together a "complete team". Whether it is climate, # of scholarships, losing tradition, or conference affiliation, every low and mid level D1 faces the same dilemmas. The NCAA motto should be that "every team is created equal just some are more eaqual than others". I give the horizon league credit for not throwing together patsy schedules. I like the UIC mentality. "I'll play you in in Feb or March and at your house, if we lose it will be a learning loss, if we win it's a positive notch for the program. You just better hope not to see us in June".
Take a look at Youngstown, UW-Milw, Butler, and any other Horizon league teams pre-season schedules, they are not out looking for that "sure win", they are out there looking for a way to make their team better. UIC starts this year with Creighton, Long Beach State, and Mississippi which on the surface looks like a potential super-regional most years, that is not a way to pad a schedule.
rz1,
Excellent points! That was kind of my take as well. These programs can raise their ability to compete in June by playing tough out-of-confernce schedules in the early spring which should also help with future recruiting. Of course, they have a ton riding on winning the conference tournament at the end of the season but isn't that what competition is all about? That is one aspect I really like about college baseball and basketball. Whether you get into the NCAA tournament or ultimately go farther is up to the performance of the particular team in question i.e., win your conference tournament and you are in.
Excellent points! That was kind of my take as well. These programs can raise their ability to compete in June by playing tough out-of-confernce schedules in the early spring which should also help with future recruiting. Of course, they have a ton riding on winning the conference tournament at the end of the season but isn't that what competition is all about? That is one aspect I really like about college baseball and basketball. Whether you get into the NCAA tournament or ultimately go farther is up to the performance of the particular team in question i.e., win your conference tournament and you are in.
Denis
I didn't post Marshall's Ks because I didn't know the exact number like I did the others. I would have to look it up in the paper but I know he was getting about 10 Ks per 7 inning game while only walking about 1-2 per game. He was dominant to say the least.
I didn't post Marshall's Ks because I didn't know the exact number like I did the others. I would have to look it up in the paper but I know he was getting about 10 Ks per 7 inning game while only walking about 1-2 per game. He was dominant to say the least.