PSD,
I think you're on the right track and it doesn't hurt at all that he's a pretty darn good young ballplayer. My guess is that his toughest decision is going to be sorting out the offers in a couple years. Don't forget the SATs and he'll need to take the subject tests as well for the UCs.
ProudSoCalDad's sophmore son was one of the leading hitters on a team that won a prestigious HS national tournament mostly with their bats. At least 2 of the team's other hitting leaders already have scholarship offers.
95% of coaches do not care about grades. If you can be eligible in college, then you are good to go. I believe an honors program is great for your son. Academics are important for life after baseball, but they have little effect on a college career.
There was a bit of an uproar among the academia at UCLA when Kevin Love was admitted. He did not meet the academic standards combined with it was expected he would use the school for one year.quote:Originally posted by no11:
CP, yep. Notice I said "lower", but not how low. I have no idea how low the UCs can or will go on the academic scale when they are looking for athletes, but my guess is that the academic standard is different for all sports - and football would probably take lower than baseball. I once heard a rumor that one athlete (cannot recall the sport) got in to one UC with a 1.9 GPA, but again, that was rumor...
When Bob Toledo got the standards lowered for football, he nearly got a national title. But he ended up getting smoked by Miami and stuck with a bunch of thugs with arrest records.
Speaking in very general terms, SAT scores usually trump GPA because there is much more uniformity in the SAT, while grades can fluctuate due to course difficulty, school grading policies, etc. That is not to say you don't need good grades, but it is better to have higher SATs and lower grades than higher grades and lower SATs if you aren't flying high in both.
Just an aside, Wake Forest announced today that they will no longer require SAT or ACT. Entrance criteria will be based on GPA, interview, essay, and extra curricular activities. I wonder if this is another indication of the downward economy and increased competition for students? Do you think any schools will follow?
quote:Do you think any schools will follow?
I do.
Batavia: With all due respect, I disagree. In fact, check out Princeton Review on line. Log on and locate any college/university, then click on their admissions section. At the bottom of each page, it will show you the rank of importance for candidate selection. Almost every single one of ranks grades/secondary school record first. In fact, for some colleges/universities, standardized test scores aren't even second on their priority list. Or better yet, call a college admissions officer and ask them what they rank most important. Bet their answer is "grades first".
Sizzle: Wake Forest is not the first to do this. Gettysburg made the same announcement last year, and I had heard that others were considering it (if memory serves, Bucknell was also considering). If I had to guess, it might have something to do with the problems the College Board was having with score reportin, etc. Recall the nationwide problems with incorrect score reporting, etc. last year. But that is just a guess.
When it comes to college admissions, the admissions officers are very much like college baseball coaches and pro scouts. They know the schools in their regions like the back of their hands - they know the academic strengths and weaknesses (actually they know tons about them - demographics, etc.) of each school, whether grade inflation exists on the campuses, etc. They make personal visits to many of their schools every year. So they are very prepared and competent to adjust the grade factors for the various high schools.
Sizzle: Wake Forest is not the first to do this. Gettysburg made the same announcement last year, and I had heard that others were considering it (if memory serves, Bucknell was also considering). If I had to guess, it might have something to do with the problems the College Board was having with score reportin, etc. Recall the nationwide problems with incorrect score reporting, etc. last year. But that is just a guess.
When it comes to college admissions, the admissions officers are very much like college baseball coaches and pro scouts. They know the schools in their regions like the back of their hands - they know the academic strengths and weaknesses (actually they know tons about them - demographics, etc.) of each school, whether grade inflation exists on the campuses, etc. They make personal visits to many of their schools every year. So they are very prepared and competent to adjust the grade factors for the various high schools.
Oh, and while I'm at it, IN: college coaches care about grades because they have to (not necessarily because they want to) - they cannot risk loosing a scholly because of a low APR. Kids with poor grades put them into bad spots. Players must be able to maintain whatever the academic rigor of the college presents. If they cannot, they cannot play. If they cannot, colleges risk not meeting their APR. Coaches lose players and schollys. A bad, bad thing.
And if you don't think this year's compressed schedule impacted the academics of even the most academically gifted players, go find one and ask them. It has.
And if you don't think this year's compressed schedule impacted the academics of even the most academically gifted players, go find one and ask them. It has.
no11: I was just stating from experience. If a kid can get into college and maintain the lowest level, he WILL play if he is good enough. There are many kids that are barely eligible, but they are eligible. There area also kids that get their 3.5-4.0. You hear about it more in basketball and football, but it does go on in baseball.
IN, certainly there are examples of kids who can just barely make the academics at any given school, but who play because they are good. My comment was more toward the fact that a college coach would know he was taking a chance with that kid, but would do so to get the talent. I would bet he would prefer not to have to risk it. Does it happen, yes. Does the coach prefer that a kid have the kind of grades necessary to be able to play and maintain his academics, yes.
And I would have to agree that this is more problematic in football and basketball, but less so in baseball.
And I would have to agree that this is more problematic in football and basketball, but less so in baseball.
no11: I would agree the coach would prefer not to take a risk, but if a kid can play, he will play. I think the whole point of this was to not worry if your kid is getting A's and B's opposed to A's. Coaches won't hold it against him.
The basketball and football issue is a whole other issue...
The basketball and football issue is a whole other issue...
Yep, I'm in agreement on this one.
If 2 players were of equal BB talent and one was smart and the other just barely a qualifier . Guess which one he takes ?
One gets academic money and the other gets only BB money guess which one he takes ?
One gets academic money and the other gets only BB money guess which one he takes ?
academic money and BB money have nothing to do with each other...I wasn't talking about the kids that were equal, I'm talking about the players that can flat out play and are barely qualifiers, they will play somewhere...the average joe might have trouble finding a school if he has below average grades.
I think BB money and academic money have everything to do with it. Unlike the other sports coaches need to prop up their offers with as much academic money as they can. 11.7 doesn't go too far especially with the minimum 25% in place. The guys I know who were great ball players with poor grades went to JUCOs because they need only the required credits and no high GPA or ACT/SATs. I know several who tried to get into D1s and had to go JUCO. Several are very good friends and one I know very well just finished at a D11 after transferring 2 years ago with good marks and one of the top stats in his conference as a JUCO LHP. He was turned down by several MCAA teams even though he was throwing high 80s. He also was heavily scouted.
I understand your point but there are lots of great ball players turned down because of low marks.
I understand your point but there are lots of great ball players turned down because of low marks.
Bobble, absolutely! However, I think the point IN makes is valid. A kid with lower academics MUST be a top player in order to play somewhere. But that player must still have the grade minimum the school requires. If you are an average student and an average player, you will play if you get yourself out there, but you will have to look and do the work. Either side of the scale - stud player weak grades, excellent grades - medium player - these kids may have more chances. Best of all, a great student who can play the game well - the best chance of all.
Remember - academics and athletics all are on a sliding scale, depending upon the unique requirements of each college/university.
Remember - academics and athletics all are on a sliding scale, depending upon the unique requirements of each college/university.
I've talked recently with two admissions people. The end of the boom of the baby boomer kids starts with the class of 2010. Many colleges are expecting the number of applications to fall.quote:I wonder if this is another indication of the downward economy and increased competition for students?
There are college who have always thought the SAT process is flawed due to ethnic background and quality of education. One college my daughter talked to didn't care about SAT's. The third part of the SAT is a joke. How can a college quantify a subjective score? At least the Math and English are cut and dry correct/incorrect answer.
The coaches we talked to a few years ago all wanted academic info right up front. One had my son apply and get his student # before he would tell us what the package was he would offer. It was the largest scholarship my son was offered. In all cases the academic money was larger than the BB money. The coaches tend to look at all alternative sources of money before dipping into the meager BB 11.7.
RJM: I have heard this too that the class of 2010 is smaller nationally, and that graduating classes decline from there on. That does not necessarily mean that applications will be down, however, because the current trend is for each student to apply to more colleges every year. But there probably will be an overall slow decline.
As for the SAT, it is also true that a lot of colleges do not consider the new writing portion in their applications.
Bobble: We too have been told that college coaches will look for academic money first before dipping into their 11.7.
As for the SAT, it is also true that a lot of colleges do not consider the new writing portion in their applications.
Bobble: We too have been told that college coaches will look for academic money first before dipping into their 11.7.
This regarding SAT requirements from CNN-
By Elizabeth Landau
CNN
(CNN) -- Jen W ang of Short Hills, New Jersey, took her first SAT when she was in sixth grade, long before she would start filling out college applications.
Wake Forest University recently announced it would no longer require the SAT for admissions.
"My family thought it was very important for me to do well on this test, and I basically obtained nearly every SAT study guide out there by the time I was a junior in high school," she said. "For Christmas one year, I received an electronic device that allowed me to practice the SAT's 'on-the-go.' "
After all that preparation, she ended up attending a school that has made the SAT Reasoning Test, generally known as the SAT, the most widely used college admissions exam in the United States, optional.
Her school, Connecticut College, is one of a growing number of colleges and universities that are making the SAT optional in the admissions process. In May, two highly selective schools -- Smith College in Massachusetts and Wake Forest University in North Carolina -- decided to drop the SAT and ACT, which some students take as an alternative to the SAT, as requirements for admission.
Wake Forest made the move as part of its efforts to increase socioeconomic, racial and ethnic diversity in the student body, said Martha Allman, director of admissions. Research has shown that SAT performance is linked with family income, and that the test by itself does not accurately predict success in college, she said.
Making the test optional "removes the barrier for those students who had everything else," like scholastic achievement and extracurricular activities, but who "maybe didn't do as well on a specific test," she said.
Smith College also cited the correlation between test scores and income as a motivation for making the exam optional, as well as a desire to take a more well-rounded view of applications. The changes at Smith and Wake Forest take effect for applicants seeking to enroll in the fall of 2009.
Several colleges and universities went test-optional in the 1990s amid concern that the test was a barrier to equal opportunity for minorities, women and low-income students, said Robert Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest. Some schools also dropped the test as a requirement with the explosion of test coaching, which gave upper-income kids an advantage.
Today, about 30 percent, or nearly 760 colleges and universities out of the approximately 2,500 accredited four-year institutions across America have made at least some standardized tests optional for some applicants, according to the nonprofit advocacy group FairTest.
Some of those schools, such as George Mason University in Virginia, still require the tests for prospective students who do not meet a particular GPA requirement in high school.
But Alana Klein, spokesperson for the College Board, which owns the SAT, said this is not a trend. While the news media have focused on recent moves to make the test optional, schools have been doing this for decades, and SAT test volumes are up 2 percent from last year, she said.
The poor performance of some low-income and minority students has to do with their lack of access to quality education, which is a national problem, but does not relate to the test itself, Klein said. The SAT is a fair test for all students, she said, and any test question that shows bias is removed.
"Not only is the SAT a critical tool for success in college, but also in the workforce and in life," she said.
At Bowdoin College, which hasn't required the SAT since 1969, the biggest benefit of the test-optional policy is the school's "unusually supportive community" where students don't compare scores, said William Shain, dean of admissions and financial aid.
But at this small liberal arts college in Maine, which admitted about 18 percent of applicants this year, more than 80 percent of applicants submit scores anyway, he said.
One of the downsides of keeping standardized tests optional is that it's harder to evaluate a large pool of candidates who all have high GPAs, he said.
Richard Atkinson, former president of the University of California, recommended in 2001 that the school system no longer require the SAT Reasoning Test for admission. He cited the concerns of African-Americans and Hispanics that these groups tend to perform worse on the exam than students of other ethnicities.
"The real basis of their concern, however, is that they have no way of knowing what the SAT measures and, therefore, have no basis for assessing its fairness or helping their children acquire the skills to do better," Atkinson said in 2001. The University of California system still requires the test today.
Several other schools dropped the test requirement for admissions after the revised SAT came out in 2005, after seeing that the new version did not address concerns about access and poor predictive value, FairTest's Schaeffer said.
Since spring 2005, 34 colleges and universities have made standardized testing optional for all applicants, according to FairTest. Four others made the requirement optional for students with a lower GPA, FairTest's data showed.
About 25 percent of liberal arts colleges have made a move in the test-optional direction, said Jack Maguire, chairman and founder of Maguire Associates. His consulting firm has advised certain colleges to become test-optional.
"I do think it improves a school's image," he said. "It shows what's important to schools, if they're really interested in increasing diversity."
****, who just finished her freshman year at Connecticut College, said she is torn on the SAT debate -- the test sharpened her vocabulary and test-taking skills, but preparation took up a lot of time that could have been spent doing other things.
"Applicants may take too much time on prepping for this test and their time can be better spent dedicating themselves to other activities that could show colleges what the applicants really find meaningful in their lives," she said.
By Elizabeth Landau
CNN
(CNN) -- Jen W ang of Short Hills, New Jersey, took her first SAT when she was in sixth grade, long before she would start filling out college applications.
Wake Forest University recently announced it would no longer require the SAT for admissions.
"My family thought it was very important for me to do well on this test, and I basically obtained nearly every SAT study guide out there by the time I was a junior in high school," she said. "For Christmas one year, I received an electronic device that allowed me to practice the SAT's 'on-the-go.' "
After all that preparation, she ended up attending a school that has made the SAT Reasoning Test, generally known as the SAT, the most widely used college admissions exam in the United States, optional.
Her school, Connecticut College, is one of a growing number of colleges and universities that are making the SAT optional in the admissions process. In May, two highly selective schools -- Smith College in Massachusetts and Wake Forest University in North Carolina -- decided to drop the SAT and ACT, which some students take as an alternative to the SAT, as requirements for admission.
Wake Forest made the move as part of its efforts to increase socioeconomic, racial and ethnic diversity in the student body, said Martha Allman, director of admissions. Research has shown that SAT performance is linked with family income, and that the test by itself does not accurately predict success in college, she said.
Making the test optional "removes the barrier for those students who had everything else," like scholastic achievement and extracurricular activities, but who "maybe didn't do as well on a specific test," she said.
Smith College also cited the correlation between test scores and income as a motivation for making the exam optional, as well as a desire to take a more well-rounded view of applications. The changes at Smith and Wake Forest take effect for applicants seeking to enroll in the fall of 2009.
Several colleges and universities went test-optional in the 1990s amid concern that the test was a barrier to equal opportunity for minorities, women and low-income students, said Robert Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest. Some schools also dropped the test as a requirement with the explosion of test coaching, which gave upper-income kids an advantage.
Today, about 30 percent, or nearly 760 colleges and universities out of the approximately 2,500 accredited four-year institutions across America have made at least some standardized tests optional for some applicants, according to the nonprofit advocacy group FairTest.
Some of those schools, such as George Mason University in Virginia, still require the tests for prospective students who do not meet a particular GPA requirement in high school.
But Alana Klein, spokesperson for the College Board, which owns the SAT, said this is not a trend. While the news media have focused on recent moves to make the test optional, schools have been doing this for decades, and SAT test volumes are up 2 percent from last year, she said.
The poor performance of some low-income and minority students has to do with their lack of access to quality education, which is a national problem, but does not relate to the test itself, Klein said. The SAT is a fair test for all students, she said, and any test question that shows bias is removed.
"Not only is the SAT a critical tool for success in college, but also in the workforce and in life," she said.
At Bowdoin College, which hasn't required the SAT since 1969, the biggest benefit of the test-optional policy is the school's "unusually supportive community" where students don't compare scores, said William Shain, dean of admissions and financial aid.
But at this small liberal arts college in Maine, which admitted about 18 percent of applicants this year, more than 80 percent of applicants submit scores anyway, he said.
One of the downsides of keeping standardized tests optional is that it's harder to evaluate a large pool of candidates who all have high GPAs, he said.
Richard Atkinson, former president of the University of California, recommended in 2001 that the school system no longer require the SAT Reasoning Test for admission. He cited the concerns of African-Americans and Hispanics that these groups tend to perform worse on the exam than students of other ethnicities.
"The real basis of their concern, however, is that they have no way of knowing what the SAT measures and, therefore, have no basis for assessing its fairness or helping their children acquire the skills to do better," Atkinson said in 2001. The University of California system still requires the test today.
Several other schools dropped the test requirement for admissions after the revised SAT came out in 2005, after seeing that the new version did not address concerns about access and poor predictive value, FairTest's Schaeffer said.
Since spring 2005, 34 colleges and universities have made standardized testing optional for all applicants, according to FairTest. Four others made the requirement optional for students with a lower GPA, FairTest's data showed.
About 25 percent of liberal arts colleges have made a move in the test-optional direction, said Jack Maguire, chairman and founder of Maguire Associates. His consulting firm has advised certain colleges to become test-optional.
"I do think it improves a school's image," he said. "It shows what's important to schools, if they're really interested in increasing diversity."
****, who just finished her freshman year at Connecticut College, said she is torn on the SAT debate -- the test sharpened her vocabulary and test-taking skills, but preparation took up a lot of time that could have been spent doing other things.
"Applicants may take too much time on prepping for this test and their time can be better spent dedicating themselves to other activities that could show colleges what the applicants really find meaningful in their lives," she said.