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Two home plate collisions on the same play has much of our local baseball community (Portland OR) in a buzz today. Both schools are large top level programs and big rivals in every sport. As private schools, they take a lot of talent from nearby HS teams. The local debate who was right or wrong is a matter of which team you dislike the least.

 

I would like to see what unbiased opinions would say about how the umps handled the situation could anything been done differently to diffuse the situation? Which players or entire team should be suspended for the next game?

 

Here is the link: http://highschoolsports.oregon...s-and-benches-clear/

 

My thoughts are if the the umps called time after the first collision they should have done more to stop the second runner from coming hard into home which really got tempers flying. Technically I agree the ball could still be live when the second runner scored but there must (should?) be a rule somewhere if a player is lying face down and not moving play should stop. Is there such a rule for high school? 

 

Original Post

From the camera angle shown, the catcher initiates contact with intentional excessive force above the first runner's waist.

 

I have a dead ball right there because of malicious contact on the catcher.  Malicious contact always is an immediate dead ball.  Score the first run.  Eject the catcher.  Place the batter-runner where appropriate.

Last edited by Swampboy
Originally Posted by Swampboy:

From the camera angle shown, the catcher initiates contact with intentional excessive force above the first runner's waist.

 

I have a dead ball right there because of malicious contact on the catcher.  Malicious contact always is an immediate dead ball.  Score the first run.  Eject the catcher.  Place the batter-runner where appropriate.

I don't. I think he didn't know where the runner was and lunged, creating extremely violent, albeit unintentional, contact.

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

From the camera angle shown, the catcher initiates contact with intentional excessive force above the first runner's waist.

 

I have a dead ball right there because of malicious contact on the catcher.  Malicious contact always is an immediate dead ball.  Score the first run.  Eject the catcher.  Place the batter-runner where appropriate.

What's interesting is the catcher is the only player on the defense NOT ejected and suspended. The offensive team also had the entire team ejected, but only 9 players suspended.

 

 

Difference of opinion, Matt.

 

I see a catcher with excellent awareness and positioning.  He put his heels on the 1B line before catching the ball so he wouldn't have to spin after the catch and so he could track runner's progress with peripheral vision.  

 

Once he caught the ball, his simplest option was to reach out and make the tag.  His next simplest option was to drop to his knees and put his mitt on the front edge of the plate.  Instead, he tucked the glove into his gut like a fullback, lowered his shoulder, took a decisive step, and slammed into the runner above his waist.  His actions pretty clearly line up with the discussion in this year's book.

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

Difference of opinion, Matt.

 

I see a catcher with excellent awareness and positioning.  He put his heels on the 1B line before catching the ball so he wouldn't have to spin after the catch and so he could track runner's progress with peripheral vision.  

 

Once he caught the ball, his simplest option was to reach out and make the tag.  His next simplest option was to drop to his knees and put his mitt on the front edge of the plate.  Instead, he tucked the glove into his gut like a fullback, lowered his shoulder, took a decisive step, and slammed into the runner above his waist.  His actions pretty clearly line up with the discussion in this year's book.

I have to agree with Swamp... the catcher lowered his shoulder while the runner was attempting to slide.. Everyone that comes out of the dugout gets ejected...

I thought it was just a good tough baseball play.  Runner didn't think there was a play, so he didn't initially slide, though he tried to eventually.  Catcher did drop his shoulder a bit but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he has to brace for a collision.  The batter-runner is the  kid who really escalated things, and I believe he deserves a much harsher punishment than anybody else for his totally unprovoked hit on the 3rd baseman.  3rd baseman was acting stupidly as his head  totally left  the game, but that's what people do when they they get upset.  I have never umpired on the 90' diamond so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I would kill that play as soon as I see the catcher flat out.  He needs to be seen to, and the offense isn't being penalized much, as it was a solid triple, not a HR.

Originally Posted by JCG:

I thought it was just a good tough baseball play.  Runner didn't think there was a play, so he didn't initially slide, though he tried to eventually.  Catcher did drop his shoulder a bit but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he has to brace for a collision.  The batter-runner is the  kid who really escalated things, and I believe he deserves a much harsher punishment than anybody else for his totally unprovoked hit on the 3rd baseman.  3rd baseman was acting stupidly as his head  totally left  the game, but that's what people do when they they get upset.  I have never umpired on the 90' diamond so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I would kill that play as soon as I see the catcher flat out.  He needs to be seen to, and the offense isn't being penalized much, as it was a solid triple, not a HR.

F5 caused the whole situation by playing the ass. The hit on him was not unprovoked; he was starting a fight with R2. Of what I can see, F1 is the only one that I feel should definitively get a multiple-game suspension (he's the only one I can see actually fighting.)

 

Also, injury is not a reason to kill the play, unless further play jeopardizes the injured. Not really the case here.

Last edited by Matt13
Originally Posted by Matt13:
Originally Posted by JCG:

I thought it was just a good tough baseball play.  Runner didn't think there was a play, so he didn't initially slide, though he tried to eventually.  Catcher did drop his shoulder a bit but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he has to brace for a collision.  The batter-runner is the  kid who really escalated things, and I believe he deserves a much harsher punishment than anybody else for his totally unprovoked hit on the 3rd baseman.  3rd baseman was acting stupidly as his head  totally left  the game, but that's what people do when they they get upset.  I have never umpired on the 90' diamond so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I would kill that play as soon as I see the catcher flat out.  He needs to be seen to, and the offense isn't being penalized much, as it was a solid triple, not a HR.

F5 caused the whole situation by playing the ass. The hit on him was not unprovoked; he was starting a fight with R2. Of what I can see, F1 is the only one that I feel should definitively get a multiple-game suspension (he's the only one I can see actually fighting.)

 

Also, injury is not a reason to kill the play, unless further play jeopardizes the injured. Not really the case here.

Interesting how two people can watch the same thing and see something totally different. I watched it again and F5 - #19 was indeed jawing at R2, but his hands were always at his sides up until the point of the second collision, and he never made any contact (perhaps thanks to the PU) with R2 or anybody else. After the collision he gets out of the area and heads back to the dugout while everybody else convenes by the plate.  BR, on the other hand, blind-sided F5, who he could have easily gone around.  How you figure that was provoked is a mystery to me

Last edited by JCG
Originally Posted by JCG:
Originally Posted by Matt13:
Originally Posted by JCG:

I thought it was just a good tough baseball play.  Runner didn't think there was a play, so he didn't initially slide, though he tried to eventually.  Catcher did drop his shoulder a bit but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he has to brace for a collision.  The batter-runner is the  kid who really escalated things, and I believe he deserves a much harsher punishment than anybody else for his totally unprovoked hit on the 3rd baseman.  3rd baseman was acting stupidly as his head  totally left  the game, but that's what people do when they they get upset.  I have never umpired on the 90' diamond so my opinion doesn't mean much, but I would kill that play as soon as I see the catcher flat out.  He needs to be seen to, and the offense isn't being penalized much, as it was a solid triple, not a HR.

F5 caused the whole situation by playing the ass. The hit on him was not unprovoked; he was starting a fight with R2. Of what I can see, F1 is the only one that I feel should definitively get a multiple-game suspension (he's the only one I can see actually fighting.)

 

Also, injury is not a reason to kill the play, unless further play jeopardizes the injured. Not really the case here.

Interesting how two people can watch the same thing and see something totally different. I watched it again and F5 - #19 was indeed jawing at R2, but his hands were always at his sides up until the point of the second collision, and he never made any contact (perhaps thanks to the PU) with R2 or anybody else. After the collision he gets out of the area and heads back to the dugout while everybody else convenes by the plate.  BR, on the other hand, blind-sided F5, who he could have easily gone around.  How you figure that was provoked is a mystery to me

He charged an opposing player. He's the instigator here. 

Originally Posted by Matt13:
 

He charged an opposing player. He's the instigator here. 

Wait - what? How does the fact that he is jawing at the original runner justify him getting INTENTIONALLY run into by the trailing runner. That runner has ZERO justification for what he did. Not only did he leave the baseline to do it - he did it to a guy who had his back turned. That move went beyond any baseball play and was completely gutless and classless. In Florida he would likely get the next 6 weeks off.

Originally Posted by Rob T:
Originally Posted by Matt13:
 

He charged an opposing player. He's the instigator here. 

Wait - what? How does the fact that he is jawing at the original runner justify him getting INTENTIONALLY run into by the trailing runner. That runner has ZERO justification for what he did. Not only did he leave the baseline to do it - he did it to a guy who had his back turned. That move went beyond any baseball play and was completely gutless and classless. In Florida he would likely get the next 6 weeks off.

JFC. Where did I say that?

Originally Posted by Matt13:
JFC. Where did I say that?





Originally Posted by Matt13:
F5 caused the whole situation by playing the ass. The hit on him was not unprovoked; he was starting a fight with R2. Of what I can see, F1 is the only one that I feel should definitively get a multiple-game suspension (he's the only one I can see actually fighting.



F5 was turning away when the trailing runner decided to cheap shot him. He wasn't fighting anyone - he was yelling. There was an umpire between the players - the situation was done. The trailing runner decided to escalate the situation.He wasn't playing the white knight, he was being a bigger dumbass than F5 had been.

skp the video...read the article and you read that "R2 was attempting to score on the play" and at that time F5 is standing in the baseline.   I can't tell if the ball was dead.  The article also leads you to believe this might have been the 2nd collision at the plate.  If so, awareness was already heightened.  

 

In my opinion, catcher initiated contact as runner was sliding. Eject catcher.  F5 escalated.  Eject F5.  R2 - well...eject him too because maybe he was continuing the play, but he certainly took advantage of the opportunity to inflict a little agony.  It is tough to say how many people from the team that was at bat left the bench, but the team in the field lost about 2/3 of the team when they left the dugout.

 

I think the mutual forfeit was likely the only way to resolve it.

Watched video over and over, pausing it and looking at head of catcher and R1. Catcher caught the ball protected the ball turned to drop to his knee, the he realized runner not slider, he then came up towards runner. R1 never attempted to slide or avoid contact. I see this as R1, and R2 and their coach. No one should be ejected. Give coaches stern warnings, let both teams calm down, resume play. Any more incidents game cancelled.

Originally Posted by schwammi:

skp the video...read the article and you read that "R2 was attempting to score on the play" and at that time F5 is standing in the baseline.   I can't tell if the ball was dead.  The article also leads you to believe this might have been the 2nd collision at the plate.  If so, awareness was already heightened.  

 

In my opinion, catcher initiated contact as runner was sliding. Eject catcher.  F5 escalated.  Eject F5.  R2 - well...eject him too because maybe he was continuing the play, but he certainly took advantage of the opportunity to inflict a little agony.  It is tough to say how many people from the team that was at bat left the bench, but the team in the field lost about 2/3 of the team when they left the dugout.

 

I think the mutual forfeit was likely the only way to resolve it.

Pretty much agree with all of this except that eject R2 for fighting because it looks to me the plate ump holds his hands up for time after the collision at the plate.  At this point play is dead and anything that happens is now fighting and now continuing the play.  Plus it looks to me the second runner coming in goes out of his line to initiate contact with F5 although with everything going on I can see how that may have been missed.

Originally Posted by trojan-skipper:

Why do guys think that if there is any contact at all at home plate that war should be declared and bombs should start flying??? 

exactly...there will always be "legal contact in baseball"......there are time when the ball, the runner and the fielder will have to occupy the same space.....

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