Did they really lose?

Coach did right! The pitcher did his job, enough to win. You win and lose as a TEAM, somebody was suppose to finish his great job.

Great question.

No that particular coach or his team did not lose imho. They demonstrated the qualities of winners even though the result is contrary to what they would've liked.

That decision just may result in a championship for that program down the road. He showed he values something more important than the score itself - the players in question. You'll get kids running through a brick wall for a coach like that. Plus, he showed faith in the rest of the "team" to get the victory. They just didn't get the result they wanted.

I am with Racab---the coach made the right move

Also you are not in the dugout---perhaps the kid told coach he was running out of gas

TR, the young man is quoted in the paper as saying he was getting stronger as the game went along and wanted to stay in and pitch.
Coach is quoted that the player has a lot at stake come June 7 and that factored in why he took him out.

JMO, my son could play for that guy anytime.

He did the right thing.

Getting the W/L is important but never at a pitcher's future expense, and a smart coach with a future potential player knows what is right and what is wrong. What if he had kept him in and they lost anyway? All those extra pitches would have been just more toll on the pitchers arm. I also beleive that you do not WAIT for a pitcher to get tired, you pull him before that happens because that is when the damge can be done. Don't care what the pitcher said, his adrenaline was in overdrive.

As someone mentioned to me once, you never let the guy who worked so hard get the L, should be a W or a no decision. He pulled him at the right time. It was up to the reliever and the hitters to determine the game, not ONE pitcher.

The other day, my son was not sent out for the 7th, though we were ahead when they sent another pitcher out. Was a pitchers dual going on, he was up to 90+ and the other pitcher was passed 100 when they got got replace, three innings of no score , it was now tied, neither pitcher would have gotten a decision at that point.

Our bullpen did not come in and get the job done to hold the lead. It was a good decsion not to send him out, even if it was the last time he would ever pitch. Of course, my son beats up on himself for that, but at that point, it wan't up to him anymore.

As a position players parent, I am curious to know what your opinion might be, as a pitcher's parent I am assuming I would know JBB's!

Infield Dad;

Many years ago [1996], one of the fathers of a OHIO Area Code pitcher, related over the phone of the "pitch count" agreed to by the player, father and coach. This was a 75 pitch count.

I congratulated the father and made the statement that if I was the coach, I would pitch the player the last 5 innings of the game, hit 500 ground balls to my infielders and outfielder each practice day and have my defense pledge to keep runners on 1B.

At Michigan State, our assistant coach keep a record of "pitch counts" for 15 years and concluded that if the pitcher can keep his pitch count to 14.4 pitches each inning, his team can win the majority of games.

Bob

I agree entirely with all of the previous posts...no hs game is worth the future of a potential pro...a concept not many hs coaches understand it often seems

Great coach.

Good decision by the coach. He's a winner in my book.

BTW, I'm guessing the pitcher was Kyle Blair. He is very talented! I only wish that Goeddel could have stayed healthy this spring. Couple of NorCal's finest.

PG, the match up was Kyle Blair vs Kevin Eichorn. I had not seen either pitch before. Each is a terrific talent!!! Probably better than that. A great day at the ball park.
So, let me change this a bit.
In a DIII College Regional that started Wednesday, one pitcher threw 7 innings on Thursday facing 32 batters and giving up 11 hits in a win.
On Friday, his team fell into the loser's bracket.
On Saturday, on one day's rest, he threw 9 innings to send his team to the CWS in Appleton. His effort followed another 9 inning outing by a pitcher who should get drafted. That pitcher threw 9 innings on Wednesday.
So, one guys throws 18 innings in 48 hours and another throws 18 innings in 72 hours to get their team to the DIII World Series. Neither pitcher has anywhere near the talent of the two high school guys.
Is it different under these circumstances?

infielddad,

Different - Yes... Some might think this is the most important thing in those pitchers baseball career. Kind of like, a pitcher starting 3 games in the World Series. I suppose the importance of something and the future are factors to consider. maybe winning the DIII world series is the absolute pinnacle for some pitchers and worth the risk.

However, I still don't agree with it.

This is a very relevant question right now in Oregon.

We just finished the first round of high school playoffs. The #1 rated pitcher in the state, who is signed at OSU and could easily be drafted, pitched 10 innings in the first round game, pitch count of 150.

If they continue to win, he will likely pitch three more games in the next 14 days, which is what he did last year on the way to the state title.

Another pitcher in the state, also signed at OSU, went 11 2/3 innings but the claim was that his pitch count was 120. (I am suspect of this claim - that is awfully efficient, and usually flame throwers are strikeout guys, meaning it would be hard to average 10 pitches per inning.)

So I applaud this coach who took his ace out of the game.

The coach made the right decision. To be a championship team they have to be able to win with more than just one player.

All pitchers pitch alot this time of the year. In college a lot more depends on the player, but in HS, for younger arms that are still developing they should be watched carefully. Most HS pitchers will go onto play this summer as well, sometimes they show up at college in bad shape. A scout hoping that his guy will have a chance to be drafted is most likely cringing.
I see some college pitchers that have put in sooo much time already and still have to go through tourneys and regionals and super regionals and mayube onto Omaha. That's why a really good coach (any level) who thinks that the team will go a longer distance has to make adjustments, but most don't. Most teams that hang in there do so because of deep pitching.
I got a story last week about a pitcher who is expected to go very high this year, started pitching and then a rain delay and they put him back in. Not going to mention names, but this was a call by a coach that everyone knows and he is a fine coach, but obviuosly looked on as a bad decision. It happens.

As lclcaoch says, it takes more than one player to win a championship.

Infielddad, you did not mention what year teh pitcher was in D3. If that D3 player is coming to the end of his playing career, that is one thing, if he still has time left, that is a whole different issue.

I am very close to that HS game. The coach should be applauded for this move, but, he has not always had the players best interest at heart.

Another pitcher, on this team, with a diagnosed shoulder injury, rehabed during the fall and winter and avoided surgery so that he could play his senior year. He pitched in his first game a few weeks in to the season. His third appearance out, he threw 95 pitches in a tournament game. His previous pitch counts were something like 45 and 60. His dad was not happy. No, I am not the father.

quote:

As lclcaoch says, it takes more than one player to win a championship.

The sad fact is, in Oregon, this is almost a false statement. The five rounds of tournament play are stretched over 15 days. A team with a stud pitcher who can mow everyone down can pitch four of the five games, leaving only the second round game for the team to find a way to win without him.

In Nevada where my brother plays they have an 11 inning rule. A pitcher may pitch no more than 11 innings in a 4 day span. Because the schools are so spread out they play all of their league games on Saturdays as double-headers. The last wekend of the regular season #1(Nighthawks) and #2 were pitted against eachother in a two game set for the league title. The #2 team pitched their top guy (probably the best pitcher in the entire league) in the first game. He threw all 7 innings in a 2-0 win over #1. After about a 45 minute break he took the mound again and threw another 4 innings until he hit his max. 11 innings was way too much. Everyone knew it and it was the wrong call.

Honestly (IMO) you guys have no idea whether "X" innings or "X" pitches is too many for a guy. He's the only one who really knows, and hopefully he can be mature enough to make the right decision. A little selfishness is good in that respect.


Also, one must consider that inning time, breaking balls, grips, and conditions all have an effect and every player is obviously very different.

quote:

Is winning a high school playoff game worth a pitch count of 130/140 for someone likely to have his name called very early next month?

Nope!

Not worth it for a kid that might just want to play college ball neither. No excuse ever for over use of an arm. Coach did exactly right!

Great day at the ballpark...especially sitting with infielddad!

Coach made a GREAT decision! I gained TREMENDOUS respect for him in this game. The other pitcher, a true prospect himself, was removed after 7 innings in a 0-0 game. Yet another GREAT decision by his coach.

BEST HS game I have ever seen...perhaps in the top-5 all-time of ANY game I have seen.

As infielddad and PGStaff alluded too...this was a game between pitchers Kyle Blair (a likely very high draft pick THIS year) and Kevin Eichorn (an 08, an alum of the LLWS (Aptos LL, 2002) and son of former major league pitcher Mark Eichorn).

Also, a fellow webster's son, CaBB's son, had the best seat in the house as he was the catcher for Aptos HS and Kevin Eichorn in this game. A very talented player in his own right!...certainly with a future beyond HS himself.

Kevin, an 08, won the game with a walkoff grand slam in the bottom of the 10th (final score 4-0). He too very well could become a top draft pick in the 08 class. I first saw Kevin play as an 8th grader and his talent was unmistakable at that point. His father, Mark, is a really great guy...and one of the coaches on his son's HS team (Aptos, CA HS).

An INCREDIBLE game competed between 2 VERY talented pitchers...along with a fair amount of talent on the field otherwise.

Today was another terrific day at the park. Got to see justbaseball's son have a wonderful outing(7 innings, 5 hits, 0 earned runs) which seemed to save some wear and tear on justbaseball's shoe leather.
Honestly, Erik Davis had another very fine outing for Stanford. I cannot tell you how proud I am of that young man and how happy I am for his parents.
I, too, was very impressed with both coaches yesterday, and the way the pitchers were managed. While I think Eichorn was tired, Blair seemed like he could have continued. His coaches made a terrific decision. I wish there was a way to bottle and sell it.
TPM, the pitchers at the DIII level were a senior and sophomore. The former is likely to be drafted and is certainly as good as many I have seen picked in rounds 5-10. The one who pitched on 24 hours rest is a 6'5" sophomore.
So let me add another factor. In 2004, I watched a DIII pitcher, who ended up being drafted in the 7th round. He pitched 35, or so, innings in 12 days as his team won the DIII CWS.
He had about 5 outings in professional ball and then had TJ. Two years later, he was released and his career appears to be over.
I wonder what is the right answer in these 3 somewhat similar, but also different situations. To me, the one reason I have real trouble with is whether that player will soon be signed for $1,000,000 vs $150,000 vs not drafted. I don't have the answer. I just have a very hard time with coaches/adults making these types of decisions for amateur and very competitive athletes based on their future "value" in baseball.

Thank you for the kind words about our team (Aptos hs) This was an incredible game to watch. Kyle Blair was inspiring and he did seem to get stronger as the game went on. The stadium was packed with supportive fans and it seemed like everyone had a great time. Los Gatos fans and players are very classy. There were really no losers in this game. I think we all came away better people seeing these kids and coaches battle it out.

Since I'v kind of been "outed" I would like to say that we think we have the most outstanding coaches in hs baseball. 3 World Series rings between them so they know baseball, but most importantly, they have helped our boys mature this season, on and off the field. They are truly nice people that really care about all the players. This is probably a whole 'nother thread but everyone on our team thinks they are FANTASTIC!

The coach made the right decision.
If they had advanced any farther in the playoffs, Then Kyle would still be strong for his next start.
Instead of burned out after that game.

Kyle may have been getting stronger, But thats adrenalin pumping as it should be.
But he would of felt the effect's of a high pitch count the next day.
So Kudo's to the Coach for doing the right thing.
EH

I agree with others on this one and the Great Coach, who took the boys future into consideration before his own desire to win. However, he certainly realized that his other players had to contribute for the win, and it just din;t work out. He will sleep fine knowing he did the right thing. We need more like him.

Yes they really lost. The team lost the game. Someone needed to step up and they just didnt get the job done. It says alot that a coach would be congratulated for doing something that should be a no brainer. How many kids have had their baseball cut short because someone wanted to win a game more than do the right thing? Your pitcher goes out there and pitches his heart out for the team. When he has done his job he comes out. It may be 3 innings or 7 innings but when its over its over. You dont ride a horse till he drops. That is selfish and just flat out wrong. It happens all too often and especially come playoff time. Coaches that do this have no respect from people who have a clue. It should be the norm and it should be so common that no one notices. The mere fact that it is noticed when a coach does his job properly makes it obvious that the wrong thing is done all too often.

Kudos to this coach - too few in our profession do it the right way. Competition clouds vision sometimes. Whether or not the kid is going to be drafted really SHOULDN'T matter - this is one of "your boys" and you should want to protect him. I look at all my players as if they were MY son - would I leave my boy in in that situation? If not, he's out - winning a trophy isn't worth compromising your principles!

quote:

Originally posted by LHP2140:
Honestly (IMO) you guys have no idea whether "X" innings or "X" pitches is too many for a guy. He's the only one who really knows, and hopefully he can be mature enough to make the right decision. A little selfishness is good in that respect.


Also, one must consider that inning time, breaking balls, grips, and conditions all have an effect and every player is obviously very different.

I doubt that you can really rely on most 17 year olds to come tell you they're done or to be honest with you when you ask them how they feel. Most will tell you that they're feeling better than they really are because most want to stay in the game. This is especially true in situations where emotions and adrenaline are running high.

You can closely monitor their workloads (pitch counts, innings pitched, recent outings, etc. along with the other factors you mentioned) and pay close attention to how much they are laboring to see if their mechanics are suffering as they lose steam. Then take this information, along with the information from the player, and make an informed decision about whether or not to make the call to the pen. But, I just don't think you can rely on the pitcher to make the decision.

I never rely solely on what a pitcher tells me unless he says he is done. When he says he is done HE IS DONE. I dont want anyone on the field that tells me they are done for whatever reason it may be. When you ask a kid how are you "Most of them will tell you what they think you want to hear". That is why it is important to have all the information available to you "pitch count - number of pitches thrown in the last inning - ball to strike ratio - mechanics (sound as usual or laboring and not sound ) - body language etc etc. The decision to take him out or leave him in is the coaches decision and not the players unless he tells you he is done and then - he is done.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Did the coach make the right choice to protect the player even though the team was considerably weaker on the mound by taking him out?

Yes.

Now there's a guy with integrity (and a sense of perspective).

I wish every young pitcher had a coach like that.

The decision to take out a kid or leave him has nothing to do with how stronger or weaker you will be when you take him out. The decision is based on the guy on the hill not the guy in the bullpen. If the guy on the hill is done you take him out. When you start worrying about whats going to happen if you take him out you leave him in too long. Take care of the youngman out there giving you all he has. Show some ba*** and do the right thing. Care more about your players than about winning a game. Believe me guys are not going to respect you or play hard for you if they know you care more about winning than you do them. And if you do care more about winning than you do them - you dont need to be coaching.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
I never rely solely on what a pitcher tells me unless he says he is done. When he says he is done HE IS DONE. I dont want anyone on the field that tells me they are done for whatever reason it may be. When you ask a kid how are you "Most of them will tell you what they think you want to hear". That is why it is important to have all the information available to you "pitch count - number of pitches thrown in the last inning - ball to strike ratio - mechanics (sound as usual or laboring and not sound ) - body language etc etc. The decision to take him out or leave him in is the coaches decision and not the players unless he tells you he is done and then - he is done.

Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating not trusting the pitcher if he says he's done. You're right, if he says he's done then that's that. My post was meant for when the opposite happens and he tells you he's fine and he's really not.